"Honor Killing"

Fishooks12

Fantastic, shocking, piece of journalism from Iraq

From the Guardian website

For Abdel-Qader Ali there is only one regret: that he did not kill his daughter at birth. 'If I had realised then what she would become, I would have killed her the instant her mother delivered her,' he said with no trace of remorse.
Two weeks after The Observer revealed the shocking story of Rand Abdel-Qader, 17, murdered because of her infatuation with a British soldier in Basra, southern Iraq, her father is defiant. Sitting in the front garden of his well-kept home in the city's Al-Fursi district, he remains a free man, despite having stamped on, suffocated and then stabbed his student daughter to death.

Abdel-Qader, 46, a government employee, was initially arrested but released after two hours. Astonishingly, he said, police congratulated him on what he had done. 'They are men and know what honour is,' he said.
Rand, who was studying English at Basra University, was deemed to have brought shame on her family after becoming infatuated with a British soldier, 22, known only as Paul.
She died a virgin, according to her closest friend Zeinab. Indeed, her 'relationship' with Paul, which began when she worked as a volunteer helping displaced families and he was distributing water, appears to have consisted of snatched conversations over less than four months. But the young, impressionable Rand fell in love with him, confiding her feelings and daydreams to Zeinab, 19.

It was her first youthful infatuation and it would be her last. She died on 16 March after her father discovered she had been seen in public talking to Paul, considered to be the enemy, the invader and a Christian. Though her horrified mother, Leila Hussein, called Rand's two brothers, Hassan, 23, and Haydar, 21, to restrain Abdel-Qader as he choked her with his foot on her throat, they joined in. Her shrouded corpse was then tossed into a makeshift grave without ceremony as her uncles spat on it in disgust.
'Death was the least she deserved,' said Abdel-Qader. 'I don't regret it. I had the support of all my friends who are fathers, like me, and know what she did was unacceptable to any Muslim that honours his religion,' he said.

Sitting on a chair by his front door and surrounded by the gerberas and white daisies he had planted in the family garden, Abel-Qader attempted to justify his actions.
'I don't have a daughter now, and I prefer to say that I never had one. That girl humiliated me in front of my family and friends. Speaking with a foreign solider, she lost what is the most precious thing for any woman. 'People from western countries might be shocked, but our girls are not like their daughters that can sleep with any man they want and sometimes even get pregnant without marrying. Our girls should respect their religion, their family and their bodies.

'I have only two boys from now on. That girl was a mistake in my life. I know God is blessing me for what I did,' he said, his voice swelling with pride. 'My sons are by my side, and they were men enough to help me finish the life of someone who just brought shame to ours.'
Abdel-Qader, a Shia, says he was released from the police station 'because everyone knows that honour killings sometimes are impossible not to commit'. Chillingly, he said: 'The officers were by my side during all the time I was there, congratulating me on what I had done.' It's a statement that, if true, provides an insight into how vast the gulf remains between cultures in Iraq and between the Basra police the British army that trains them.

Sources have indicated that Abdel-Qader, who works in the health department, has been asked to leave because of the bad publicity, yet he will continue to draw a salary.
And it has been alleged by one senior unnamed official in the Basra governorate that he has received financial support by a local politician to enable him to 'disappear' to Jordan for a few weeks, 'until the story has been forgotten' - the usual practice in the 30-plus cases of 'honour' killings that have been registered since January alone.
Such treatment seems common in Basra, where militias have partial control, especially in the districts on the outskirts where Abdel-Qader lives.
While government security forces and British troops have control over the centre, around the fringes militants can still be seen everywhere on the streets or at the checkpoints they have erected. And they have imposed strict laws of behaviour for all the local people, including what clothing should be worn and what religious practices should be observed. There are reports of men having their hands cut off for looting and women being killed for prostitution.

Homosexuality is punishable by death, a sentence Abdel-Qader approves of with a passion. 'I have alerted my two sons. They will have the same end [as Rand] if they become contaminated with any gay relationship. These crimes deserve death - death in the name of God,' he said.
He said his daughter's 'bad genes were passed on from her mother'. Rand's mother, 41, remains in hiding after divorcing her husband in the immediate aftermath of the killing, living in fear of retribution from his family. She also still bears the scars of the severe beating he inflicted on her, breaking her arm in the process, when she told him she was going. 'They cannot accept me leaving him. When I first left I went to a cousin's home, but every day they were delivering notes to my door saying I was a prostitute and deserved the same death as Rand,' she said.

'She was killed by animals. Every night when go to bed I remember the face of Rand calling for help while her father and brothers ended her life,' she said, tears streaming down her face.
She was nervous, clearly terrified of being found, and her eyes constantly turned towards the window as she spoke. 'Rand told me about the soldier, but she swore it was just a friendship.
'She said she spoke with him because she was the only English speaker. I raised her in a religious manner and she never went out alone until she joined the university and then later when she was doing aid work.
'Even now, I cannot believe my ex-husband was able to kill our daughter. He wasn't a bad person. During our 24 years of marriage, he was never aggressive. But on that day, he was a different person.'

The mother is now trying to raise enough money to escape abroad. 'I miss my two boys,' she said. 'But they have sent a message saying that I am wrong for defending Rand and that I should go back home and live like a blessed Muslim woman,' said Leila, who is now volunteering with a local organisation campaigning for better protection for women in Basra.
One of those running the organisation, who did not want to be identified, said that Rand's case was similar to so many reported in Basra, with the only difference being she was in love with a foreigner, rather than an Iraqi.

'There isn't too much to say. Rand is dead. It is a tragedy and will be a tragedy for many other families in Iraq in the days to come.
'According to information we have been given, some from Rand's colleague, we have doubts that her love was reciprocated. We have the impression that Rand was in love, but the English soldier wasn't. But, for a girl to be paid nice compliments about her beauty and her intelligence, it was enough for her to think she was in love.
'She isn't here any more for her mother to ask any of the questions she would like to. Rand's case had repercussions because she fell in love with a foreigner. But what about the other girls murdered through "honour" killings because they fell in love with some of a different sect, or lost their virginity, or were forced to become prostitutes?'
Rand's mother used to call her 'Rose'. 'That was my nickname for her because when she was born she was so beautiful,' she said.
'Now, my lovely Rose is in her grave. But, God will make her father pay, either in this world ... or in the world after.'

Never knew this kind of thing went unpunished, it's terrible to think about and I hope the 'Father' gets what's coming to him

CardBordWindow

Can I get the simple version with the short text and big pictures please?

Biggins

Sadly not the first case of this kind - and sadly won't be the last.
Very backward thinking yet again, based around religion and an invisible god.
Pure stupidity.

Ave Sodalis

That's just plain sick....:mad:

DrumSteve

Damn American English...

Fishooks12

CardBordWindow wrote: »

Can I get the simple version with the short text and big pictures please?

What would you want pictures of that for?

Maybe just read it, only takes a minute and it's brilliantly written

WindSock

Where psychopaths get celebrated under the guise that they are murdering to regain honour in their community.

I would think they are random psychopaths, yet they have the support of their fellows when they carry out these acts.

Orando Broom

Animals.

Conall Cernach

Why the big shock here? She was going out with a British soldier. In Ireland not too long ago she would have been tied to a lamp post and had her hair cut off at the least.

Saila

summary version please

mcmoustache

Conall Cernach wrote: »

Why the big shock here? She was going out with a British soldier. In Ireland not too long ago she would have been tied to a lamp post and had her hair cut off at the least.

Well, in that case, it must be OK.

Biggins

Saila wrote: »

summary version please

Father kills daughter because of religious ideas.

LK_Dave

You don't have to go to Iraq to find so called "Honour Killings". many have been reported in the UK. If it is happening there, you can be sure it’s happening here!!

Biggins

LK_Dave wrote: »

You don't have to go to Iraq to find so called "Honour Killings". many have been reported in the UK. If it is happening there, you can be sure it’s happening here!!

It is to be sure (in England): http://lnw.me/k1XLw6

Ireland: http://lnw.me/PXByMJ

mcmoustache

Saila wrote: »

summary version please

Muslim father kills daughter because she spoke to a British Soldier. Her mother divorced him, lives in fear and wants to leave the country.


EDIT: Beaten to it by Biggins.

Noo

Conall Cernach wrote: »

Why the big shock here? She was going out with a British soldier. In Ireland not too long ago she would have been tied to a lamp post and had her hair cut off at the least.

No she wasnt

tayto lover

Totally uncivilized.

Conall Cernach

mcmoustache wrote: »

Well, in that case, it must be OK.

Well, we are in AH after all.

Seriously though. I don't understand the mentality behind so called "honour" killings at all. It's not as if by killing a family member you have brought honour on yourself and they're not even for serious stuff (like your son was a paedophile or something) but they are usually for something we would consider fairly trivial (like not marrying the guy you wanted them to). "Honour" should be reserved for the big stuff not every day things.

Conall Cernach

Noo wrote: »

No she wasnt

I stand corrected. She was only "infatuated" with him but their relationship seemed to consist of only a few conversations. He must feel pretty upset about this.

cosmicfart

I can understand the reasoning why this occurred and will occur again. Firstly, the obvious hatred of the ordinary Iraq civilian towards British and Americans for destroying their country, the Hundreds of thousands civilians killed the American and British. Secondly, the religion, Islam, is what was Christianity was back in the 1500's, Iraq's live their life according to their religion and regardless of how we deplore the murder it is how these people lie and the daughter I would say, knew that she was shaming herself and her family.

Noo

I know. From the article anyway it seems the soldier was just being polite to her, completely innocently. Cant imagine how'd this would affect him.

Glad to see the mother left the father. Many women would simply accept it but she did the most she could do in the situation and left him, putting her own life in danger too. Not all them accept these "honour" killings and the mothers side of the story is so upsetting.

SillyMcCarthy

Who is Honor?:rolleyes:

cosmicfart

SillyMcCarthy wrote: »

Who is Honor?:rolleyes:

The OP is American :pac:

alastair

cosmicfart wrote: »

I can understand the reasoning why this occurred and will occur again. Firstly, the obvious hatred of the ordinary Iraq civilian towards British and Americans for destroying their country, the Hundreds of thousands civilians killed the American and British. Secondly, the religion, Islam, is what was Christianity was back in the 1500's, Iraq's live their life according to their religion and regardless of how we deplore the murder it is how these people lie and the daughter I would say, knew that she was shaming herself and her family.

'Hundreds of thousands civilians killed the American and British'? The absolute largest figure for those Iraqi civilians who could possibly have been killed by British and US troops (assuming that every 'unknown' perpetrator was actually from coalition forces - which would be a pretty daft assumption) falls below 80,000.
http://www.plosmedicine.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pmed.1000415

And there's plenty of Iraqis and Muslims who have no time for the notion of honour killings. You get idiots and fanatics from all religions, and beyond.

biko

There's been many more murders since that OP article from 2008.
Its not so much to do with religion,imo, as crazy old customs where the family lost face is the kids acted up. To restore face they had kill the offender.
It can also be an individual trying to restore face. Like in the first Irish case in Jan 2011:
http://www.stophonourkillings.com/?q=taxonomy/term/1020

Irish detectives are investigating the murder of a Pakistani man in what may have been the Republic's first so-called honour killing, according to garda sources.
The 32-year-old Pakistani national died in a Dublin hospital today after being stabbed in an apartment in Drogheda, Co Louth, yesterday.
A 30-year-old woman who was also stabbed is being treated in Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital in Drogheda. Her injuries are not life-threatening.

Da Shins Kelly

The idea of 'honour killings' is not something that just exists in religious communities. 'Honour killings' happen all the time, it's just that we tend to call them 'crimes of passion' most of the time. Certainly in religious communities people tend to believe they will be rewarded for it, but the principle of feeling dishonoured and upholding and pride is the same.

Still, it's all wrong. Whatever God he is hoping will reward him is not a God worth worshipping.

pragmatic1

Every society that keeps women down and treats them like second class citizens is a shytehole. These areas will continue to be shyteholes until women are treated with respect.

Duggy747

Honour killings shouldn't be just attributed to being just an Islam thing, though it seems easier to paint it like that.

More relic customs and moral codes in a family than religious, which don't belong in this day & age. I find it disturbing of the cases where daughter's flee their family and are tricked / forced to return to them where they meet a grisly end.

Acid attacks, burying them alive, or disfiguring their faces by cutting their noses / ears off aren't exactly a rare form of punishment either for them.

Worse thing is when these honour killings appear on this side of the world, crazy amount of cases.

Saila

Biggins wrote: »

Father kills daughter because of religious ideas.

cheers, might be worth a read then! jesus

no father could ever kill his daughter, thats just a fucked up nut who happens to be religious

alastair

pragmatic1 wrote: »

Every society that keeps women down and treats them like second class citizens is a shytehole. These areas will continue to be shyteholes until women are treated with respect.

Switzerland only gave women the vote in 1971. It wasn't generally considered a 'shytehole'. Though I take your point.

cosmicfart

alastair wrote: »

'Hundreds of thousands civilians killed the American and British'? The absolute largest figure for those Iraqi civilians who could possibly have been killed by British and US troops (assuming that every 'unknown' perpetrator was actually from coalition forces - which would be a pretty daft assumption) falls below 80,000.
http://www.plosmedicine.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pmed.1000415

And there's plenty of Iraqis and Muslims who have no time for the notion of honour killings. You get idiots and fanatics from all religions, and beyond.

meant to read 'Hundreds of thousands (Iraq's civilans) killed BY the American and British. I took that info from IRB/NGO

pragmatic1

alastair wrote: »

Switzerland only gave women the vote in 1971. It wasn't generally considered a 'shytehole'. Though I take your point.

1971? You learn something new every day.

alastair

cosmicfart wrote: »

meant to read 'Hundreds of thousands (Iraq's civilans) killed BY the American and British. I took that info from IRB/NGO

I got the intent, but the figures are exaggerated. Iraq Body Count has the total civilian death tally at a maximum of 113 thousand to date - resulting from perpetrators on all sides.

Raze_them_all

Back off, It's the religion of piece. Anyone who says otherwise must be killed.

Noo

Raze_them_all wrote: »

Back off, It's the religion of piece. Anyone who says otherwise must be killed.

What piece would you like to cut off first?

cosmicfart

alastair wrote: »

I got the intent, but the figures are exaggerated. Iraq Body Count has the total civilian death tally at a maximum of 113 thousand to date - resulting from perpetrators on all sides.

That in itself is still a scandalous amount and thats only the documented deaths, which IBC concedes is not the full picture. And all the deaths are a direct result of the invasion.

Pherekydes

There is no honour in killing.

Nodin

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Fantastic, shocking, piece of journalism from Iraq

From the Guardian website


...........

......from 3 years ago.

Fishooks12

Saila wrote: »

cheers, might be worth a read then! jesus

no father could ever kill his daughter, thats just a fucked up nut who happens to be religious

Happens all the time in middle east

Over 400 times a year in some middle eastern countries

SillyMcCarthy

cosmicfart wrote: »

The OP is American :pac:

Not an acceptable excuse!

davetherave

I'm just waiting for someone to blame it on the British Army and/or "Paul"

DarkJager

Ah yes the religion of "peace" and its lovely followers. I wish the very worst for that parasite and his 2 sons. Lower than dog**** in terms of respectability and all 3 will hopefully meet a nice grisly end.

Turtwig

Eh is this news not 3 years old?

Nodin

DarkJager wrote: »

Ah yes the religion of "peace" and its lovely followers. I wish the very worst for that parasite and his 2 sons. Lower than dog**** in terms of respectability and all 3 will hopefully meet a nice grisly end.

You do realise that its also a practice that occurs within the Hindu and Sikh communities?

Johro

CardBordWindow wrote: »

Can I get the simple version with the short text and big pictures please?

No.

Fishooks12

Malty_T wrote: »

Eh is this news not 3 years old?

Ya my bad, friend sent it to me and I didn't realise the age

Still relevant now though as it continues to be a massive problem

Jesus Wept

Biggins wrote: »

Father kills daughter because of religious ideas.

Can you summarize this please?

Bodhisopha

Shame and honour. I'd rid the world of both.

RichieC

On the upside he can get a mac donalds in Baghdad now... :pac:OOOOOOO

****ing disgrace.. the poor girl.. imagine your own father doing that to you, must have been the most miserable death imaginable..

krudler

thats beyond fcuked up. that soldier will have that on his conscience forever as well, not his fault in the slightest but how could you not blame yourself that someone died because of their feelings for you.

Dudess

DarkJager wrote: »

Ah yes the religion of "peace" and its lovely followers.

Well the fanatical side of it anyway.