Ireland the 5th best country in the world for women...

baby and crumble · 03-11-2011 12:11pm #1

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jennagoudreau/2011/11/01/the-best-and-worst-countries-for-women/

We're number 5 on the list for the best countries for women to live in. What do you guys reckon? I'm surprised, I'll be honest. Obviously we all know there are some far worse places to be living as women, but I'm curious if you'd put Ireland above say, the UK, which we are. We're really only 'beaten' in this list by the Nordic countries...

Sonics2k · 03-11-2011 1:21pm

Doesn't surprise me -too- much really.

We're not exactly the most sexist country in the world, and for the most part women are treated equally to men, the obvious exception being in the payment sector of high level jobs.

seamus · 03-11-2011 1:30pm

No, I wouldn't be that surprised tbh. If you look at the main measurement factors:

women’s access to basic and higher education; women’s health and survival by measures of life expectancy and sex ratio; equality of economic opportunity and participation; and political empowerment.

Access to education is universal, there is no gender biase there. If anything, women are more represented at 2nd and third level than men are.

Health and survival: Women have a good life expectancy in this country, and from a male perspective, women's health appears to be given more attention by everyone - media, professionals and the public at large - than men's health is. We have the best maternal mortality rate in the world, effectively zero Irish women die in childbirth.

Equality of economic opportunity and participation: In my experience, I've never seen sexism in the workplace. I've never seen a woman deemed less capable of doing a particular job than a man on the basis of her sex. I don't doubt that it does exist in some places, but it's not widespread. I really don't think that many employers will favour a male over a female candidate. Whether that's down to attitude or fear of being sued, I don't know.

The only one I can't really comment on is political opportunities. We seem to have a good number of female politicians, but for a long time there have been allegations that at the top level of politics, men are strongly favoured. That is, male candidates are put up for election by their parties even when a female candidate should more rightly be there.

irishh_bob · 03-11-2011 1:53pm

wonder where we rank on a list of the best countrys in the world for men ?

Zulu · 03-11-2011 1:58pm

seamus wrote: »

No, I wouldn't be that surprised tbh.

+1

It doesn't surprise me in the slightest.

But thats because I've never experienced the contrary.

Da Shins Kelly · 03-11-2011 3:10pm

I'm not surprised at all. I don't remember any time that I've been discriminated against for being a woman, and I don't know anyone who is. When you think about university educations, jobs and health, women are very fortunate in this country. It doesn't surprise me in the least that Ireland is high on the list.

LittleBook · 03-11-2011 3:19pm

seamus wrote: »

No, I wouldn't be that surprised tbh. If you look at the main measurement factors

Exactly. And they must be completely ratio driven. Lesotho is # 9 on the list ... a country where nearly a quarter of the population is HIV positive and the average life expectancy is @ 40 shouldn't be # 9 on any list of "best" countries.

seamus · 03-11-2011 3:26pm

LittleBook wrote: »

Exactly. And they must be completely ratio driven. Lesotho is # 9 on the list ... a country where nearly a quarter of the population is HIV positive and the average life expectancy is @ 40 shouldn't be # 9 on any list of "best" countries.

That's a great point actually.

You can see from the data points that the measurements are taken relative to the country's population, rather than relative to the world as a whole. So this is really an index of "Countries by level of gender equality" rather than, "The best places to be a woman". Because I'm sure most women would rather be alive and a little discriminated against in the United States rather than slightly less discriminated against but with a 1 in 2 chance of having HIV, in Lesotho.

If they wanted to compile a list of "Best places in the world to be a woman", they would have to cross-multiply these scores against the worldwide quality of life index. That would probably correct things, though the top few places probably wouldn't change much.

LeixlipRed · 03-11-2011 3:29pm

Complete and utter load of tosh. As the previous poster said, how can Lesotho be on a list of "best" anythings. I know a chap from Lesotho, they've only had state primary education there since 2000, I can only imagine the challenges women face in a society like that.

Victor · 03-11-2011 3:55pm

LeixlipRed wrote: »

Complete and utter load of tosh. As the previous poster said, how can Lesotho be on a list of "best" anythings. I know a chap from Lesotho, they've only had state primary education there since 2000, I can only imagine the challenges women face in a society like that.

Don't you mean "I can only imagine the challenges people face in a society like that", seeing as the entire population is affect in some manner?

Emme · 03-11-2011 4:18pm

Philippines

2011 Ranking: No. 8
Score: 76.9%

:eek: :eek: :eek:

If the Philippines is that good for women then why are so many women leaving the country for work? Worse again, why are so many women willing to leave the Philippines to marry a man they barely know and live thousands of miles away from home?

I cannot see how Ireland at No. 5 is a better country for women than Denmark at No. 7, Switzerland at No. 10, Germany at No. 11 or the Netherlands at No. 15. As far as I know women in both Germany and the Netherlands have longer paid maternity leave than women in Ireland.

How can Lesotho at No. 9 be a better country for women than Switzerland, Germany or the Netherlands? Or indeed Canada at No. 19. I would also have thought that Canada was a better country for women than Ireland.

seamus · 03-11-2011 4:21pm

OK, logically crossing the Quality of Life index with the gender gap index, we should be able to get a list of "Best places to be a woman". So I did just that

LeixlipRed · 03-11-2011 4:36pm

Victor wrote: »

Don't you mean "I can only imagine the challenges people face in a society like that", seeing as the entire population is affect in some manner?

Well I'd only be guessing but I can imagine the men have an easier time. Obviously the vast majority of people in Lesotho are piss poor and call all use some help. But my point still stands.

LittleBook · 03-11-2011 4:39pm

Emme wrote: »

As far as I know women in both Germany and the Netherlands have longer paid maternity leave than women in Ireland.

Actually, I was very surprised to learn that in Germany women are discouraged from returning to work after they've had children so the longer paid maternity leave is effectively forced maternity leave.

http://www.economist.com/node/11708457

Seamus is right, the list should be called "Countries by level of gender equality" rather than "The best places to be a woman".

Sid_Justice · 03-11-2011 4:46pm

I think what the article is saying is QOL as a ratio of men's. So lesotho may be a 3rd world country, women are more equal then men in this country then they are in US despite it being obvious women have a higher QOL in the US

LittleBook · 03-11-2011 5:07pm

Actually, the headline is quite misleading, as is, by default (so no offence B&C

), the title of the thread. The very first sentence in the article says:

The World Economic Forum today released its sixth annual Global Gender Gap Report, which ranks 135 countries, comprising 93% of the world’s population, by measures of gender equality

So basically, it's shít in Lesotho but it's more or less equally shít for women and men.

professore · 03-11-2011 5:16pm

I reckon it's pretty good here for women to be honest.

Lots of things I have seen "on the Continent" would rightly not be tolerated by women here. It's quite normal for women to be accessories to men, look at Carla Bruni FFS, imagine Michael D's wife being portrayed in the same way, while he played away from home with different lovers, or Berlusconi in Italy with his bunga bunga parties? Imagine the uproar here!!!

Here men can't even enjoy a stupid crisp ad without legions of women complaining, yet similar ads portraying men in the same way arouse no comments.

EDIT: Ok I do realise the ridiculousness of Michael D as a sex object!

Dolbert · 03-11-2011 5:31pm

I love how the vast majority of replies so far have been men telling women how good we have it - thanks lads!

Ickle Magoo · 03-11-2011 5:31pm

I was surprised that the UK ranked lower than Ireland baring in mind I got free healthcare, contraception and education at all levels - until I realised it should really be entitled Irish women the fifth closest to their men in gender in/equality and clearly has zip to do with opportunity or quality of life in general...

Sonics2k · 03-11-2011 5:58pm

Dolorous wrote: »

I love how the vast majority of replies so far have been men telling women how good we have it - thanks lads!

I don't think that was said directly, more that people have mentioned there are far worse places to be where women quite literally have no rights or much less than men.

For the most part though, Ireland is quite equal among men and women.

Princess Peach · 03-11-2011 7:53pm

I kind of agree. Except for the typical sexist jokes you get I can't say I've felt discrimated against for being a woman, but sure women make sexist jokes about men too! I think when it comes to social aspects and "who wears the trousers" in relationships, women have pretty much equal standing here. Especially when you think of how women are treated as second class citizens in many other countries. We have equal legal rights and are treated pretty equally by decent menfolk.

I've had every opportunity I could get when it came to education, was favoured for awards and scholarships over men.

Yes there is still a lot of sexism in Ireland when it comes to who holds the higher positions in jobs, but I don't really see that changing in any country anytime soon. Unless a woman provides an employer a document saying she will never have children, they will always be resistant to put a woman in a position of high importance. And I hate to admit it, as a woman who would love a good career, bit also as a person with a keen business mind, it does make good business sense to give these jobs to men.

Scrag · 03-11-2011 8:03pm

Bull**** baffles brains

frozenfrozen · 03-11-2011 8:06pm

baby and crumble wrote: »

We're really only 'beaten' in this list by the Nordic countries...

Pardon the pun

Silverfish · 03-11-2011 8:24pm

If you have nothing to add to the discussion, please do not post.

Please read the charter and be aware of the rules.

Thanks.

LightningBolt · 03-11-2011 8:45pm

Princess Peach wrote: »

I kind of agree. Except for the typical sexist jokes you get I can't say I've felt discrimated against for being a woman, but sure women make sexist jokes about men too! I think when it comes to social aspects and "who wears the trousers" in relationships, women have pretty much equal standing here. Especially when you think of how women are treated as second class citizens in many other countries. We have equal legal rights and are treated pretty equally by decent menfolk.

I've had every opportunity I could get when it came to education, was favoured for awards and scholarships over men.

Yes there is still a lot of sexism in Ireland when it comes to who holds the higher positions in jobs, but I don't really see that changing in any country anytime soon. Unless a woman provides an employer a document saying she will never have children, they will always be resistant to put a woman in a position of high importance. And I hate to admit it, as a woman who would love a good career, bit also as a person with a keen business mind, it does make good business sense to give these jobs to men.

I have to agree with most of this post. I don't agree that women don't hold higher positions in jobs. The industry I work in which would have been traditionally seen as male dominated in the past now has numerous women at partner level. In some departments it's almost 50:50 and in others it's around the 40:60 mark. If you want to look to women in business/politics you've now got:

Meg Whitman - CEO of HP
Angela Merkel - German Chancellor/PM
Christine Lagarde - Former French Finance Minister now head of IMF
Hilary Clinton - US Secretary of State
Sheryl Sandberg - COO of Facebook
Indra Nooyi - CEO PepsiCo
Irene Rosenfeld - CEO Kraft

They are some massive companies these guys are either heading up or leading ops within them. You've Merkel and Lagarde working on the Eurozone debacle these past few months/years.

The reason why I listed the above women is that they all have managed to have children and still excel in their chosen careers. Lagarde was widowed at 40 and has done extremely well, in fairness, Merkel has not actually had her own children but when she remarried she became a step mother to two young children.

Times are changing. Yes it can still be difficult for women to progress quicker than they would like in their careers but if they persist long enough they'll get there in the end with the support structures that are now in place.

Can more be done? I'm sure there can in the smaller companies but I'm pretty sure the bigger companies ensure that there is the chance for women to progress all the way up provided they're good enough.

Victor · 03-11-2011 11:47pm

Princess Peach wrote: »

Yes there is still a lot of sexism in Ireland when it comes to who holds the higher positions in jobs, but I don't really see that changing in any country anytime soon.

Realise that while men have an awful lot of the very top jobs, especially in the likes of management and politics, an awful lot of women have middle ranking jobs in the likes of law and medicine.

Dudess · 04-11-2011 2:59am

irishh_bob wrote: »

wonder where we rank on a list of the best countrys in the world for men ?

Pretty good I'd imagine.

Scrag · 04-11-2011 12:39pm

I also remember being told we were the richest country in the world . Was this survey done by the same people.

Fluorescence · 04-11-2011 1:25pm

I'm not surprised - Ireland really is one of the best places in the world to live in, despite recent economic crap. If I couldn't live here the only other place I could see myself living long-term in would be Scandanavian countries (particularly Sweden or Norway).

irishh_bob · 04-11-2011 10:39pm

fluorescence wrote: »

I'm not surprised - Ireland really is one of the best places in the world to live in, despite recent economic crap. If I couldn't live here the only other place I could see myself living long-term in would be Scandanavian countries (particularly Sweden or Norway).

even the men in sweeden have vaginas

Dudess · 04-11-2011 10:50pm

Ireland IMO is overall a good place to be a woman - bar the abortion issue and access to contraception. And sexual health provisions.

professore wrote: »

Here men can't even enjoy a stupid crisp ad without legions of women complaining, yet similar ads portraying men in the same way arouse no comments.

Possibly... because outspoken men tend not to speak out about them - instead choosing to pour their energy into how good the feminazis have it?

Scrag wrote: »

I also remember being told we were the richest country in the world . Was this survey done by the same people.

Why do you say that? Do you think Ireland is as bad for women as it is economically?

Fluorescence · 04-11-2011 10:57pm

irishh_bob wrote: »

even the men in sweeden have vaginas

Awwwwwwww yeah :cool:

Inquitus · 04-11-2011 11:02pm

LightningBolt wrote: »

I have to agree with most of this post. I don't agree that women don't hold higher positions in jobs. The industry I work in which would have been traditionally seen as male dominated in the past now has numerous women at partner level. In some departments it's almost 50:50 and in others it's around the 40:60 mark. If you want to look to women in business/politics you've now got:

Meg Whitman - CEO of HP
Angela Merkel - German Chancellor/PM
Christine Lagarde - Former French Finance Minister now head of IMF
Hilary Clinton - US Secretary of State
Sheryl Sandberg - COO of Facebook
Indra Nooyi - CEO PepsiCo
Irene Rosenfeld - CEO Kraft

They are some massive companies these guys are either heading up or leading ops within them. You've Merkel and Lagarde working on the Eurozone debacle these past few months/years.

The reason why I listed the above women is that they all have managed to have children and still excel in their chosen careers. Lagarde was widowed at 40 and has done extremely well, in fairness, Merkel has not actually had her own children but when she remarried she became a step mother to two young children.

Times are changing. Yes it can still be difficult for women to progress quicker than they would like in their careers but if they persist long enough they'll get there in the end with the support structures that are now in place.

Can more be done? I'm sure there can in the smaller companies but I'm pretty sure the bigger companies ensure that there is the chance for women to progress all the way up provided they're good enough.

It's great to see that list, but for every one of them on it you could come up with 100 or maybe 1000 men in their 40's in equal or better roles. Personally I think the world in general has much more equality these days, but at the top of things where you are looking it's still lacking anything more than token equality.

Silverfish · 04-11-2011 11:06pm

irishh_bob wrote: »

even the men in sweeden have vaginas

Banned for a week. You cannot continue to post in this manner on this forum.

Permabear · 05-11-2011 2:13am

This post has been deleted.

tr0llface · 05-11-2011 2:16am

I guess Irish accents are just really irresistible~

NapoleonInRags · 05-11-2011 2:21am

I'm actually quite put out that the best image of Ireland they could muster was a ****ty little flag stuck in a map!

Wolfe Tone · 05-11-2011 2:31am

Thats good news, much work still to be done, historically Ireland has often been at the forefront when it comes to womens rights - until the church (with De Valeras help) dragged us back that is.

First female MP, first female Minister, the proclamation declared equality for men and women, we have been trailblazers in a number of ways in championing gender equality, and thats something to be proud of, and something to continue to work hard on.

Equality should be the foundation stone of Irish society.

Ní saoirse go saoirse na mban.

Achtung! Bono · 05-11-2011 2:46am

A bit of a drop in the rankings in the Newsweek list (sept 20 2011) 22nd in fact.

1, Iceland
Overall score (out of 100): 100.0
Justice: 100.0
Health: 90.5
Education: 96.7
Economics: 88.0
Politics: 92.8
2, Sweden
Overall score (out of 100): 99.2
Justice: 90.8
Health: 94.8
Education: 95.5
Economics: 90.3
Politics: 93.1

3, Canada
Overall score (out of 100): 96.6
Justice: 100.0
Health: 92.7
Education: 92.0
Economics: 91.0
Politics: 66.9

4, Denmark
Overall score (out of 100): 95.3
Justice: 86.1
Health: 94.9
Education: 97.6
Economics: 88.5
Politics: 78.4

5, Finland
Overall score (out of 100): 92.8
Justice: 80.2
Health: 91.4
Education: 91.3
Economics: 86.8
Politics: 100.0

6, Switzerland
Overall score (out of 100): 91.9
Justice: 87.9
Health: 94.4
Education: 97.3
Economics: 82.6
Politics: 74.6

7, Norway
Overall score (out of 100): 91.3
Justice: 79.3
Health: 100.0
Education: 74.0
Economics: 93.5
Politics: 93.9

8, United States of America
Overall score (out of 100): 89.8
Justice: 82.9
Health: 92.8
Education: 97.3
Economics: 83.9
Politics: 68.6

9, Australia
Overall score (out of 100): 88.2
Justice: 80.7
Health: 93.3
Education: 93.9
Economics: 85.3
Politics: 65.1

10, Netherlands
Overall score (out of 100): 87.7
Justice: 74.0
Health: 95.0
Education: 99.0
Economics: 83.0
Politics: 68.4

11, New Zealand
Overall score (out of 100): 87.2
Justice: 72.0
Health: 87.5
Education: 93.3
Economics: 87.5
Politics: 78.2

12, France
Overall score (out of 100): 87.2
Justice: 100.0
Health: 94.7
Education: 95.0
Economics: 72.3
Politics: 62.0

13, Luxembourg
Overall score (out of 100): 87.1
Justice: 100.0
Health: 90.8
Education: 95.0
Economics: 75.5
Politics: 56.2

14, Portugal
Overall score (out of 100): 86.8
Justice: 100.0
Health: 92.7
Education: 90.4
Economics: 74.0
Politics: 67.6

15, Republic of Macedonia
Overall score (out of 100): 86.4
Justice: 83.5
Health: 92.1
Education: 95.4
Economics: 83.4
Politics: 51.2

16, Republic of Moldova
Overall score (out of 100): 86.3
Justice: 88.7
Health: 91.5
Education: 95.9
Economics: 80.3
Politics: 53.1

17, Philippines
Overall score (out of 100): 86.3
Justice: 88.4
Health: 57.0
Education: 92.2
Economics: 89.1
Politics: 85.6

18, Belgium
Overall score (out of 100): 85.2
Justice: 73.1
Health: 96.5
Education: 92.5
Economics: 79.6
Politics: 78.2

19, United Kingdom
Overall score (out of 100): 85.0
Justice: 79.5
Health: 91.7
Education: 95.9
Economics: 81.6
Politics: 57.0

20, Romania
Overall score (out of 100): 85.0
Justice: 92.3
Health: 90.2
Education: 94.9
Economics: 79.1
Politics: 45.5

21, Albania
Overall score (out of 100): 84.6
Justice: 84.8
Health: 99.3
Education: 99.0
Economics: 82.4
Politics: 21.4

22, Ireland
Overall score (out of 100): 84.5
Justice: 89.8
Health: 86.2
Education: 93.1
Economics: 81.0
Politics: 51.0

Permabear · 05-11-2011 3:15am

This post has been deleted.

Wolfe Tone · 05-11-2011 3:17am

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

until the church (with De Valeras help) dragged us back that is.

Do try to read a post in its entirety

Just in case you are still struggling I'll elaborate further, I was not suggesting that everything has been fine and dandy for Irish women, I was however focusing on the positives, and highlighted a few and said that much work has been done in Ireland for womens equality and much more remains to be done, and concluded by saying "Ní saoirse go saoirse na mBan" - "No freedom until womens freedom.

I said that we should be proud of those aspects of Irish history, whats wrong with that? Do you only want to focus on the shameful aspects? Oh and btw, there is no need to point out to me how much of a failure the free state has been.

Just trying to be upbeat and positive PB!

plonk · 05-11-2011 3:50am

How has belgium got 78.3 in politics and we only have 50 when their goverment has been in crisis for 4 years and portugal 100 for justice???/

vicecreamsundae · 05-11-2011 5:35am

i can't agree with us being in the top 5. Reproductive rights are way too huge an issue to just be set aside, in my opinion.

neat info graphic ----> http://worldabortionlaws.com/

dashboard_hula · 06-11-2011 8:43pm

Scrag wrote: »

I also remember being told we were the richest country in the world . Was this survey done by the same people.

For all of the current issues, we are still a wealthy country compared to most of the world, and we'll remain so even when the austerity measures become more pronounced.

vicecreamsundae wrote: »

i can't agree with us being in the top 5. Reproductive rights are way too huge an issue to just be set aside, in my opinion.

neat info graphic ----> http://worldabortionlaws.com/

In nearly every other index or map of economic, social and development issues I've seen (OECD, Freedom House, EIU etc) Ireland is nearly always the same colour as every country in the world where abortion is legally and freely (to get at, not financially) available. Doesn't say much for the reproductive rights of Irish women that we're the same colour on this map as Sudan, Iran and Afghanistan.

Eve_Dublin · 06-11-2011 9:20pm

On an everyday level, I always felt respected by men in Ireland when I lived there. I felt an equal and felt my opinion counted when I was in groups of men and mixed groups. I always felt Irish women could hold their own just as much as men and that wasn't looked down upon or considered unladylike. I was never a victim of sexist comments in public and always felt appreciated beyond what I looked like. And I never felt I had to take a step back and let the man take the limelight and be the funny one in the group. I don't think delicate wall flowers are taken seriously in Ireland and it's almost expected to act like an equal and make yourself heard. I liked that about Ireland.

Reproductive rights are appalling though and that HAS to change.

professore · 07-11-2011 9:16am

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

On an everyday level, I always felt respected by men in Ireland when I lived there. I felt an equal and felt my opinion counted when I was in groups of men and mixed groups. I always felt Irish women could hold their own just as much as men and that wasn't looked down upon or considered unladylike. I was never a victim of sexist comments in public and always felt appreciated beyond what I looked like. And I never felt I had to take a step back and let the man take the limelight and be the funny one in the group. I don't think delicate wall flowers are taken seriously in Ireland and it's almost expected to act like an equal and make yourself heard. I liked that about Ireland.

Reproductive rights are appalling though and that HAS to change.

This is why women are more equal in Ireland than in most places. In most other countries women are "given" rights but in practise are not respected in the same way men are. I think it's only in the English speaking world that women are given equal respect to men - with some exceptions of course.

On the contraception side of things, it is now freely available on prescription - so I don't see a problem there. I am against abortion except in the most extreme circumstances, or very early like the morning after pill - but that's my personal view. Since we live in a democracy if the majority of people want it, then I can't stop it nor would I try.

goose2005 · 07-11-2011 3:21pm

It seems odd that, in all discussion of this sort, there are only two possible outcomes - women have fewer rights than men, or are equal to men, with no mention made of any situation where women are better off than men - in terms of suicide rates, life expectancy, unemployment, homelessness, addiction, parental rights, divorce outcomes, greater prison sentences in worse prison conditions, prison population.

I don't want to go off on a rant, but don't you think there's something wrong when such enormous disparities are, essentially, ignored by society or treated as natural ("men are just more violent" / "men naturally live shorter" / "it's their own fault" / "children need a mother more") when in the same breath you complain about male/female disparities that favoured men being ignored or treated as natural in past decades. Not to mention Permabear above mentioning the lack of contraception or divorce as if these were only issues that affected women (even in 2011, a man who fails to use contraception is expected to take full responsibility for any child produced; a woman is not).

Ickle Magoo · 07-11-2011 4:27pm

I think it's more to do with the fact we're in the Ladies Lounge and discussions here are from a predominantly female perspective - on top of the fact the thread is titled "Ireland the 5th best country in the world for women..." - the thread is going to centre around women and women's rights and [historical?] in/equality from a female perspective...as it should.

Dudess · 07-11-2011 6:38pm

goose2005 wrote: »

It seems odd that, in all discussion of this sort, there are only two possible outcomes - women have fewer rights than men, or are equal to men, with no mention made of any situation where women are better off than men - in terms of suicide rates, life expectancy, unemployment, homelessness, addiction, parental rights, divorce outcomes, greater prison sentences in worse prison conditions, prison population.

I don't want to go off on a rant, but don't you think there's something wrong when such enormous disparities are, essentially, ignored by society or treated as natural ("men are just more violent" / "men naturally live shorter" / "it's their own fault" / "children need a mother more") when in the same breath you complain about male/female disparities that favoured men being ignored or treated as natural in past decades. Not to mention Permabear above mentioning the lack of contraception or divorce as if these were only issues that affected women (even in 2011, a man who fails to use contraception is expected to take full responsibility for any child produced; a woman is not).

Situations where things aren't as good for men have been acknowledged here plenty of times, unlike in After Hours where a number of men seem to celebrate for instance an underage boy being seduced by a much older woman who's often his teacher.

But that's not what's being discussed here - it's about Ireland for women, not Ireland for men. Would you expect how women fare to come into a thread on Ireland for men in The Gentlemen's Club? I know I wouldn't...

Ireland the 5th best country in the world for women...

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