Dublin Bikes expansion to other cities

HivemindXX

Cork, Galway, Limerick and Waterford are in the running for a public bikes scheme similar to Dublin Bikes.

There's a story in the Examiner about this here


Do you think this will work as well in those other cities? I never use the Dublin Bikes since I live here and already have my own bike but I go down to Cork frequently enough and I think I'd use a bike down there to get from the train station to the bus station and maybe other places as well. I think the South Ring Road would mark the limit of the scheme though. It's not very cycle friendly and I doubt many of the target demographic would be willing to take a bike out on it.

If it does go ahead we'll need a name to refer to the various schemes as a collective. Like Rotharí, or even better, something tourists will be able to pronounce properly!

RobertFoster

I hope the schemes will be integrated, so someone with an annual subscription to dublinbikes will be able to use the facilities when they're in the other cities with no extra hassle.

BeardySi

I'd certainly use it when I'm down home, getting my bike from Belfast to anywhere but Dublin by train is a right PITA....

tomasrojo

HivemindXX wrote: »

If it does go ahead we'll need a name to refer to the various schemes as a collective. Like Rotharí, or even better, something tourists will be able to pronounce properly!

Is the plural of 'rothar' 'rothair'? I seem to remember the signs that exempt buses, taxis and bicycles have 'rothair'.

EDIT: Apparently it is.
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rothar

monument

Reports on this by the NTA are to be released tomorrow.

These are not firm plans, only options.

Lemag

HivemindXX wrote: »

Do you think this will work as well in those other cities?

I didn't think that it'd work in Dublin.

Trampas

i was the same that it wouldn't work but i was wrong.

only issue i have is how the stock stations. Seems if they are moving bikes of a station onto the truck it is like they must fill the truck no matter how many bikes after left of vice a versa.

apart from that it is great

HivemindXX

tomasrojo wrote: »

Is the plural of 'rothar' 'rothair'? I seem to remember the signs that exempt buses, taxis and bicycles have 'rothair'.

Right, but we can't just call them "bicycles", we need some cool portmanteau like the Vélib in Paris.

RobertFoster

HivemindXX wrote: »

Right, but we can't just call them "bicycles", we need some cool portmanteau like the Vélib in Paris.

How about beatha (life) + rothar (bike) = bethar... sort of sounds like "be there" and "better"...

Just picture the TV ad:-

Person 1: "You better leave for that meeting across town soon, the traffic looks heavy."
Person 2: "Don't worry, I'll bethar..."

[fade to white]

what_traffic

HivemindXX wrote: »

Right, but we can't just call them "bicycles", we need some cool portmanteau like the Vélib in Paris.

Good point - sure they only call them Rothar's up in Dublin. In Connemara its always "mó bhicycle"

p

RobertFoster wrote: »

How about beatha (life) + rothar (bike) = bethar... sort of sounds like "be there" and "better"...
Just picture the TV ad:-
Person 1: "You better leave for that meeting across town soon, the traffic looks heavy."
Person 2: "Don't worry, I'll bethar..."

You make Don Draper cry.

SomeFool

I think it would work well in Cork, train station, bus station, grand parade/city center, mahon point, ucc, and cit would all be excellent locations and I'm sure a smaller scheme than Dublin would be of benifit to Cork.

MóVélo is SomeFools name of choice

el Bastardo

As far as I'm concerned, a combination of dozy motorists, medieval-sized streets, almost no bike lanes, one way streets and lots of hills make cycling a nuisance for the average Joe here in Cork. I can't see this being a successful venture.

DePurpereWolf

I have to agree with el_B. Cork is just not big enough. Most of the places except the train station are at walking distance. But cycling from the trainstation to town or on to UCC is no fun. Cork city is not a fun place to cycle, too hilly, too much traffic, no cycle paths.
It's a nice tourist attraction, but it will end up in people trying to decend patrick's Hill and crashing into cars.

monument

Here we go again...

seamus

Have to laugh sometimes, people don't seem to learn.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056439152

Exact same excuses here as there were before;
"They'll get wrecked"
"They'll get stolen"
"Limerick/Cork/Waterford/Galway is different, it isn't big enough for a bike scheme"
"It's a waste of money"
"Dozy cyclists will cause accidents"
"There are too many hills"
"There is too much traffic"
"The weather doesn't suit it"
"There aren't enough bike lanes"
(Bizarrely in the thread above) "The Dublin Bikes are only used by foreigners. We don't have any of them"

What other excuses am I missing?

I'm not saying that we're guaranteed to replicate the success of the Dublin scheme, but at the same time none of these cities possess any special difference that would make it not work there. I haven't been to Cork city in more than ten years, but I know that this scheme would be just as useful in Galway, Limerick & Waterford as it is in Dublin.

tomasrojo

Schemes of this nature have been tried in all sorts of urban centres, and they've been a success just about everywhere. I'm not sure what the smallest city/town so far has been, but the only notable failures I can think of are in jurisdictions with mandatory helmet laws for adults. Other than that, they seem popular everywhere.

It's very cheap, practically free travel. Even on those grounds, you'd expect a decent uptake.

Ste.phen

To be fair, although the bikes haven't gone missing, last week the Cathal Brugha St station had ~6 bikes with flat tires which seemed like vandalism like to my suspicious mind, maybe they're just really good at ticking things over and we DO still have people trying to ruin it for everyone else

hardCopy

I assume there will be a boards challenge to be the first person to take a bike from a stand in Dublin and check it in at a stand in Cork?

monument

Reports up at: http://www.nationaltransport.ie/citybikes.html

And here's the press release:

PRESS RELEASE

3 November 2011

GOVT ANNOUNCES CITY-BIKE SYMPOSIUMS FOR CORK, GALWAY, LIMERICK & WATERFORD

- Public Bike Schemes Possible with Private Sector Partnership – Minister Kelly



The Taoiseach, Enda Kenny along with Public Transport Minister, Alan Kelly, have announced a series of public bike symposiums to be held in regional cities in an effort to secure private sector support for city bike schemes outside of Dublin.



Public bike schemes, including Dublin bikes, allow bicycle users to pick up and drop off bikes at different points inside a city for a relatively low charge. A commitment to explore the possibility of rolling this scheme out to the regional cities was made in the programme for Government.



Speaking today, the Taoiseach said: “The Dublinbikes Scheme has been a resounding success and is internationally acknowledged as one of the most successful in Europe. This Government believes that public bike schemes in our other regional cities would enhance the city centres and provide a great boost to the cycling cultures already developing there."



Organised with the National Transport Authority, a separate symposium will be held in each city with a view to examine combined funding mechanisms for city bike schemes in the regional cities. A commercial study into the scheme by the NTA reveals that while the scheme is feasible, the funding model that makes the scheme work in Dublin cannot be applied to the other regional cities and alternatives must be found.



Minister Kelly stated: “Given the current constraints on government funding, we have to look at alternative funding mechanisms and to business, civic and community groups for ideas and proposals. Getting involved in say Galway bikes or Cork bikes could be a wonderful opportunity for the right partner to get involved and share in the success in what could be an iconic way of travelling in these cities and would be supportive of a Government initiative.”



“Introducing public bike schemes to these cities is feasible and there have been some initial expressions of interest from the private sector who are interested in coming on board. Dublinbikes, which has seen more than 2.6m passenger journeys in Dublin in just 2 years, gives an idea of the potential for these schemes to take off,” stated Minister Kelly.



The preliminary cost of building and running the bike schemes across four cities for fifteen years is in the region of €30 million between current and capital costs at current market conditions.



Todays’ announcement follows the publication of two separate reports commissioned by the National Transport Authority (NTA) to consider the introduction of public bike schemes in the regional cities.



Gerry Murphy, CEO of the National Transpor Authority said: “The technical report considers the potential scope and on-the-ground logistics of schemes in each city and the commercial report considers funding, cost and revenue analysis and options. The findings and content of both documents will underpin and inform the symposiums’ discussions and the reports and summaries are available from today on the National Transport Authority’s website (http://www.nationaltransport.ie/citybikes.html) and are also accessible via links from the Department’s website (www.dttas.ie).”



Notes for Editors:

Indicative capital costs to set up the schemes in the four proposed cities are challenging at €6.4 million with operating costs estimated at €23 million over a 15 year period.
The initial €23 million estimated figure would break down at over €7 million for Cork and just under €4million each for Galway, Waterford and Limerick with €4.5 million control room costs.
The four Bike Symposiums aim to inform and engage with interested parties, gauging the appetite locally for the scheme, communicating the issues involved and providing a defined channel via the National Transport Authority, which any interested parties can avail of to discuss an interest openly or in commercial confidence.

Symposiums will be held in Cork, Galway, Limerick and Waterford in the coming weeks to get ideas, input and evaluate support at a local level.


City
Date
Venue
Cork

7th November
Millennium Hall, City Hall
Waterford

9th November
The Large Room, City Hall
Limerick

14th November
Limerick City Gallery of Art, Pery Square
Galway

15th November
Arts Millennium Building, NUI Galway

Public Bike Schemes can bring a wide-range of visible benefits to cities. Not only are they a quick way to travel short journeys, they are cheaper on the pocket, they are a sustainable means of transport and not only do they result in a reduction in traffic, they can attract tourists and provide other options for public transport.

Dublinbikes is widely recognised as one of the most successful bike share rental schemes in the world. It currently has over 63,000 subscribers (of which almost two thirds hold long term subscriptions) and 2.6 million journeys have been taken since launch. On 13 Oct 2011 the scheme reached yet another rental record. 7,052 journeys were taken on the bikes, meaning each bike was rented an average of 13 times.

The last census showed that over 200,000 of us drive less than 4 kilometres to work. To incentivise people to not use their cars, we have to make walkways, cycle paths and the road network more user-friendly. Public bike schemes make cycling more visible and therefore safer, provide more transport choice in city centres and enhance people’s experience of their city proving a win-win for the public and for business.

HivemindXX

what_traffic wrote: »

Good point - sure they only call them Rothar's up in Dublin. In Connemara its always "mó bhicycle"

SomeFool wrote: »

MóVélo is SomeFools name of choice

Both interesting. How about MóBikes.

tomasrojo

Dublinbikes is widely recognised as one of the most successful bike share rental schemes in the world. It currently has over 63,000 subscribers (of which almost two thirds hold long term subscriptions) and 2.6 million journeys have been taken since launch. On 13 Oct 2011 the scheme reached yet another rental record. 7,052 journeys were taken on the bikes, meaning each bike was rented an average of 13 times.

That's amazingly high use. It's interesting to compare this with Melbourne, which has a scheme that is similar in geographical extent and number of bikes. Melbourne sees about three hundred trips per day, the last I heard. It gets about the same number of trips per month that Dublin gets per day.

hardCopy

tomasrojo wrote: »

That's amazingly high use. It's interesting to compare this with Melbourne, which has a scheme that is similar in geographical extent and number of bikes. Melbourne sees about three hundred trips per day, the last I heard. It gets about the same number of trips per month that Dublin gets per day.

Mandatory helmet laws make it unworkable there though.

tomasrojo

hardCopy wrote: »

Mandatory helmet laws make it unworkable there though.

Ah yes, I alluded to that further above. I'm just circumspect about bringing up the subject. I agree that it's almost certainly the reason the scheme is tanking.

DePurpereWolf

Define succes. One would say that just having it available is a succes, others might say that it needs to be economically viable. With enough subsidies everything can be a 'success'

seamus wrote: »

Have to laugh sometimes, people don't seem to learn.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056439152

Exact same excuses here as there were before;
...
"Limerick/Cork/Waterford/Galway is different, it isn't big enough for a bike ...

Size is not a restriction? Waterford has a population size 5% of Dublin.
Yes, they might have a handful of stations around town that'll be used by some people but will that really mean it's a success?

The last census showed that over 200,000 of us drive less than 4 kilometres to work. To incentivise people to not use their cars, we have to make walkways, cycle paths and the road network more user-friendly. Public bike schemes make cycling more visible and therefore safer, provide more transport choice in city centres and enhance people’s experience of their city proving a win-win for the public and for business.

I don't understand this, if it's only 4km, why don't they buy a bike to begin with. Wouldn't that turn out cheaper than renting?
Why do you need a 'Dublin' Bike scheme to build walkways and cycle paths?

The Scheme in Cork is possible, if we turn some of the roads in the centre into cycle+ped only paths, and make the city as a whole more car unfriendly.

tomasrojo

DePurpereWolf wrote: »

Define succes. One would say that just having it available is a succes, others might say that it needs to be economically viable. With enough subsidies everything can be a 'success'

I suppose success ultimately is plenty of people using it. Dublin is a huge success; Melbourne and Brisbane are not. The scheme I knew of in New Zealand closed down, which is the ultimate failure.

The word "subsidies" may be misleading, since it's not public money that allows these to function, usually. Some places pay for the scheme by advertising on the bikes themselves; Dublin went for giving JC Decaux free roadside advertising.

Since in both cases the scheme is subsidised by the private sector, the authorities are pretty happy, though in Dublin's case, pre-recession, you could have argued they were giving away something that was too valuable.

DePurpereWolf wrote: »

Size is not a restriction? Waterford has a population size 5% of Dublin.

They intend to make the scheme in Dublin about ten times bigger than it currently is. That suggests, provided that this estimate of the numbers interested is good, that Waterford could have a well-used scheme with two hundred bikes or so.

DePurpereWolf wrote: »

I don't understand this, if it's only 4km, why don't they buy a bike to begin with. Wouldn't that turn out cheaper than renting?
Why do you need a 'Dublin' Bike scheme to build walkways and cycle paths?

I spend more than €10 a year on my bikes, and I do my own repairs. Also, some people don't want to have to store a bike in their home, don't want the hassle of replacing it if stolen, don't want to have to do repairs ... the list goes on. Many such people, from the experience of Dublin, are happy to cycle when someone else is doing all the work and bearing nearly all the cost.

A bike-share scheme increases the number of cyclists, which makes it easier to justify a greater use of public funds

BeerNut

tomasrojo wrote: »

I'm not sure what the smallest city/town so far has been

Me neither, but I was in Luxembourg (pop. 100,000) the day it launched there.

Familiar-looking website?

I can't see one going at Cork train station: they normally put them at a distance from major transport hubs, plus the one-way system is particularly awkward there. The corner of MacCurtain Street and Summerhill is where I'd put the north-eastern-most station.

seamus

DePurpereWolf wrote: »

Size is not a restriction? Waterford has a population size 5% of Dublin.
Yes, they might have a handful of stations around town that'll be used by some people but will that really mean it's a success?

My point was that an argument against having it in Dublin was that Dublin was too small. The most famous example is Paris, and the argument was that "Dublin has a population size 8% of Paris". Sound familiar?
It's about economies of scale. Less people, less bikes, and it should still work just as well.

I don't understand this, if it's only 4km, why don't they buy a bike to begin with. Wouldn't that turn out cheaper than renting?

At €10/year it's about the cheapest way of commuting. Even people who walk would have to spend more than that on a new pair of shoes each year.

The definition of "success" really is the number of journeys switched from foot or car to bike. What they actually do is allow people get around cities more freely, which improves economic activity.

At the most basic example - I typically use the bikes to get out at lunchtime if I need to buy something, and do a small tour of the various shops to get it. Without the bikes, I would probably not bother doing half of these journeys (because it would take an hour or more to walk there and back) and just buy online or not buy at all.
Traffic-wise, someone taking a bike is one less passenger on a bus or one less person driving a car.

tomasrojo

BeerNut wrote: »

Me neither, but I was in Luxembourg (pop. 100,000) the day it launched there.

Familiar-looking website?

Even that's quite a big scheme, similar in size to Dublin's as it stands.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bicycle_sharing_systems

54 stations, 496 bikes.

Tübingen has a population of about 88000. It has nine stations and fifty bikes. Waterford has about 46000. So maybe a thirty-bike scheme for Waterford would be initially feasible?

Corfu has eight stations and one hundred bikes, and a population of 39000. I guess it does have an awful lot of tourists on top of that though.

GetWithIt

As long as it's run by JC Decaux in the same way as the Dublin scheme then it sounds like a good idea.

If JC Decaux aren't prepared to touch it with a barge pole you may have an answer to it's viability right there.

John_Rambo

seamus wrote: »

At the most basic example

I know girls that use them to get from the Dart/bus to the pub/club to save walking on their high heals! Seriously DePurpereWolf, have you seen Dublin Bikes in action? The amount of people and the diversity that use them in the capital? Business men, waiters, schoolkids, I know a Lybian barber that uses them for his commute every day. They are a brilliant addition to the city and have improved it no end. I am constantly having tourists asking me about them.

Define success, have a gander.

monument

While you do get the odd strange person with helmet and high-vis, these are typical Dublin Bikes users...

The suited business man or office worker (commuting, going from meeting to meeting, rushing to train stations etc):



Normal people in normal clothes and tourists:



People fumbling about town:

DePurpereWolf

John_Rambo wrote: »

I know girls that use them to get from the Dart/bus to the pub/club to save walking on their high heals! Seriously DePurpereWolf, have you seen Dublin Bikes in action? ....

I wouldn't call replacing walking a succes.

I was actually not aware that it was so cheap to use the bikes in Dublin.

I do think that it would work in Cork given that the price is the same and it is sponsored by advertising. But I don't think it will have such a huge impact as it did in Dublin. Cork is not Dublin in a lot of ways. Distances are smaller, it's a bit more car friendly.

loyatemu

BeerNut wrote: »

Me neither, but I was in Luxembourg (pop. 100,000) the day it launched there.

Familiar-looking website?

one notable difference:

Veloh wrote:

The 54 stations are available 7/7, 24/24.

obviously the Luxembourgers are trusted to take out a bike in the small hours.

John_Rambo

DePurpereWolf wrote: »

I wouldn't call replacing walking a succes.

The scheme is a success. One of the most successful in the world, but your right, it may not be as successful in Cork.

tomasrojo

monument wrote: »

While you do get the odd strange person with helmet and high-vis, these are typical Dublin Bikes users...

The suited business man or office worker (commuting, going from meeting to meeting, rushing to train stations etc):

Normal people in normal clothes and tourists:

People fumbling about town:

I remember reading that barristers use them to travel from their offices to the Four Courts. Which may warm attitudes towards cyclists in the judiciary in years to come.

ciotog

DePurpereWolf wrote: »

I wouldn't call replacing walking a succes.

I was actually not aware that it was so cheap to use the bikes in Dublin.

I do think that it would work in Cork given that the price is the same and it is sponsored by advertising. But I don't think it will have such a huge impact as it did in Dublin. Cork is not Dublin in a lot of ways. Distances are smaller, it's a bit more car friendly.

I'd argue that it is a success because you're increasing the normalisation of cycling as a valid means of transport. You're taking non-cyclists and showing them that you don't have to be lycra clad to cycle, that you can cycle in your regular clothing. More people on bikes is a positive contribution to cycling advocacy and safety.

Maybe it won't have as big an impact but maybe it will reduce some unnecessary car journeys in places like Cork and Galway. Given the congestion in Galway this would be a great thing to see happen.

Undercover Elephant

ciotog wrote: »

I'd argue that it is a success because you're increasing the normalisation of cycling as a valid means of transport. You're taking non-cyclists and showing them that you don't have to be lycra clad to cycle, that you can cycle in your regular clothing. More people on bikes is a positive contribution to cycling advocacy and safety.

It also helps to dispel the perception of cycling as dangerous.

2.6 million journeys on Dublin Bikes, usually without helmets or hi-vis or any of the other things that are supposedly essential to stop us from being killled. On unfamiliar bikes. Straight into the middle of Dublin traffic. Including many people who had never cycled in the city before.

Number of serious incidents: 2.

Undercover Elephant

tomasrojo wrote: »

I remember reading that barristers use them to travel from their offices to the Four Courts. Which may warm attitudes towards cyclists in the judiciary in years to come.

You'd be surprised how many cycling lawyers there are (or maybe you wouldn't, but most people would).

I don't know about Ireland, but in England there were senior judges biking to the courts long before it was cool. I can't quite see Peter Kelly on a db - but then again there are lots of people on dbs who I wouldn't have imagined on one.

tomasrojo

Undercover Elephant wrote: »

Number of serious incidents: 2.

Actually, I don't think they were that serious. I think the two people were kept in overnight, but there was no long-lasting harm.

Bicycle share schemes are turning out to be a very good way to estimate risk in urban cycling. Turns out the risk, as said already, is quite low.

monument

One person was killed on a Dublin Bike, very little confirmed detail at the moment but an inquest was due to be held around now / towards the end of the year. The death was reported but the detail of the cyclist being on a Dublin Bike, I think was not.

tomasrojo

monument wrote: »

One person was killed on a Dublin Bike, very little confirmed detail at the moment but an inquest was due to be held around now / towards the end of the year. The death was reported but the detail of the cyclist being on a Dublin Bike, I think was not.

When did that happen? I was working off what Andrew Montague said back in the summer. I guess this happened later?

Undercover Elephant

tomasrojo wrote: »

Bicycle share schemes are turning out to be a very good way to estimate risk in urban cycling. Turns out the risk, as said already, is quite low.

Do we have any stats for other cities?

monument

tomasrojo wrote: »

When did that happen? I was working off what Andrew Montague said back in the summer. I guess this happened later?

I understand this is the related Garda press release, it was not quickly or widely known that he was on a Dublin Bike at the time:

Issue Date: 22/06/2011

Fatal Road Traffic Collision 21st June 2011 - Westmoreland Street.
Gardaí at Pearse Street are investigating a fatal road traffic collision that occurred shortly before mid-night last night, Tuesday 21st June 2011.

It happened at the junction of Westmoreland Street and O’ Connell Bridge and involved a taxi and a pedal cyclist. The 21 year old male cyclist was taken by ambulance to St James’s Hospital where he died from his injuries this morning.

The deceased was one of 3 males riding bicycles along Westmoreland Street and Gardaí are appealing to anyone who may have witnessed the collision or who may have seen these cyclists immediately beforehand to contact them at Pearse Street on 01 6669000, the Garda Confidential Line on 1800 666 111 or any Garda Station.

Hippo

Undercover Elephant wrote: »

It also helps to dispel the perception of cycling as dangerous.

2.6 million journeys on Dublin Bikes, usually without helmets or hi-vis or any of the other things that are supposedly essential to stop us from being killled. On unfamiliar bikes. Straight into the middle of Dublin traffic. Including many people who had never cycled in the city before.

Number of serious incidents: 2.

Number of DCC cyclists who cycle dangerously, carelessly, recklessly? Plenty, I see them/cycle past them every day. Maybe some kind of educational progamme or basic safety information would be an idea.

tomasrojo

monument wrote: »

I understand this is the related Garda press release, it was not quickly or widely known that he was on a Dublin Bike at the time:

I remember that. You're right; it wasn't clear that he was on a dublinbike. The poor man.

tomasrojo

Undercover Elephant wrote: »

Do we have any stats for other cities?

I'll see what I can turn up. I remember that London had no serious injuries in the first 4.5 million trips, but I haven't any stats on the others immediately to hand.

EDIT: some stats here:
http://livininthebikelane.blogspot.com/2011/06/bikeshare-bikes-may-be-safer-than.html

Lumen

John_Rambo wrote: »

I know girls that use them to get from the Dart/bus to the pub/club to save walking on their high heals!

DePurpereWolf wrote: »

I wouldn't call replacing walking a success.

I would call getting the nurses safely to Coppers a great success, not least for the morale of the Gardai.

Whenever I hear the phrase "multi-modal integrated transport planning" I will now think of this.

Undercover Elephant

Hippo wrote: »

Number of DCC cyclists who cycle dangerously, carelessly, recklessly? Plenty, I see them/cycle past them every day. Maybe some kind of educational progamme or basic safety information would be an idea.

and yet ...

Wiggles87

Afternoon, chaps. I shall join you all for a spot of sweating in the early morn.Toodle-oo

Wiggles87

Apologies for the missent message and with respect to dangerous cyclers in dublin, I say we need more of them.Good day to you sir