Have had it with the Cheats

SARZY

Been playing Golf for about 20 years. Finishing up now.

The handicap cheating thats going on has gone completely out of hand.

Club only runs about 70 singles comps every year now and if a lad gets cut, he gets them back in jig time.

Most lads are deciding their own handicap and giving themselves lots of room.

A matchplay game is just a decision on who is the most comfortable off their handicap.

And all the guff about golf being an honourable game is starting to make me feel ill.

its the pits.

Me again!

SARZY wrote: »

Been playing Golf for about 20 years. Finishing up now.

The handicap cheating thats going on has gone completely out of hand.

Club only runs about 70 singles comps every year now and if a lad gets cut, he gets them back in jig time.

Most lads are deciding their own handicap and giving themselves lots of room.

A matchplay game is just a decision on who is the most comfortable off their handicap.

And all the guff about golf being an honourable game is starting to make me feel ill.

its the pits.

I agree, it's up to club handicap secretaries to sort this out and if they don't the GUI should be more proactive, they need to step into a club that's tearing the arse out of it and make cuts across the membership. Whats needed is a golfing equivalent of the IMF. Its a mugs game at this stage.

Dtoffee

Can't blame you Sarzy, its rampant.

I was secretary of a long established golf society and one player managed to win on a regular basis and at will. We sent the cards back to his club but nothing happened. We cut his score by 5 shots at one stage and he still managed to work the magic with his pencil, carefully arriving with his mates just in time to be last out. In the end we gave up and broke up the Society.

I have been in my current club for eight years and during that time I have finished second twice despite playing regularly ....... every year during open week and hamper comps, I can name the usual suspects who will win.

I now play with a group of 16 honest mates and we just do our own thing more often than not. We dont need to check cards as we trust each other and theres no rows or bad feeling.

Players who win more than three times in a season should be cut more than the handicap system recommends and major winners should have their cuts doubled. But we are wasting our time as the clubs are not interested in case they drive members away.

DoctaDee

Until Golf Clubs start to enforce the adjustments under general play i.e cutting under observation this will most likely continue. GUI need to proactively audit all clubs ...

This is something I've dug up..

"The Handicap Committee are advised to deal more severely to Handicaps for those players which it knows their standard of play is improving rather than those who have returned some low scores but whose general playing ability is not improving.

Handicap adjustments under Clause 23 ("General Play") should be made in the following circumstances:

Exceptionally, where a player is trying to achieve a handicap higher than his ability justifies,
Where a player returns poor scores in Handicap Qualifying Competitions, but has been successful in Match play and Best-ball events,
A player whose standard is clearly improving and who has returned two or more scores well below his handicap in a short period of time,
A player who, because of health or advancing age, is quite unable to play to his current handicap and does not compete in enough competitions for his handicap to be adjusted accordingly.
An example of (3) was given whereby a category 3 or 4 player who returns two nett differentials of –5, say, in quick succession should have an aggregate reduction of 5 strokes taken from their handicap.

Examples of players who might be expected to achieve this are young players, those taking early retirement or those made redundant or unemployed. "

Trampas

cheats will always find away.

Things like fourball, scrambles etc need to be clamped down.

I have no problem a player hitting 50pts in a small weekly comp but does my head in when it is a major and "everything just when right"

majors should be open draw. Put you name down for an hour slot and you get drawn out of hat 2 days before hand. No dropping out and if you miss your tee time tough as cheats will try and find ways around it

getcover

This will probably sound like a really dumb question, but how do you cheat on your handicap?
Is it a case that players are simply saying that they took less shots than they actually hit? Won't theis mean that their handicap is just reduced then, and so won't be of any real benefit?

death1234567

getcover wrote: »

This will probably sound like a really dumb question, but how do you cheat on your handicap?

Deliberately play bad in competitions to get a 0.1 back on your handicap or just enter competitions and don't hand in a card for the same effect. You can also make sure that you sabotage any rounds where your playing well if you don't want to get your handicap cut. Also the magic pencil is frequently used in our AM-AMs.

PRAF

There was a previous post on a similar theme a few weeks ago. I also detest this kind of cheating.

I don't think it is all that rampant however. I would say that the vast majority of golfers are honest with their handicaps and their scores. They seem to be in my club anyway. It's just the 1% of losers, you are attracted to this kind of cheating.

If you have seen any of this happening, I would suggest that you bring it up with the player(s) in question and if that doesn't work, bring it up with the handicap committee in your club.

I wouldn't let it deter me from my golf however. The game is there to be enjoyed regardless of whether you are winning your club competitions or not. It's still you vs your last score / best score, you versus the course, you versus the elements, you versus your mates etc.

GreeBo

Trampas wrote: »

I have no problem a player hitting 50pts in a small weekly comp but does my head in when it is a major and "everything just when right"

Why would it be more likely to be a cheat if its a major?
I play better the more I concentrate and I concentrate more in bigger events.
I've won a few majors in my time of various handicaps between 17 and 8. I've also recently won the captains off 10, after going back out from 8 last year. I'm sure there are some people who would say that I have manipulated this handicap but the reality is that I couldnt hit the ball out of my way for the last 12 months or so. Couldnt score to save my life.

All I ever want to do is get cut, but the reality of the game is that you are going to have peaks and troughs in your handicap.

SARZY

A 'bandit' in golf in Ireland gets many rewards.

He or She gets to choose which competition they would like to have a go at winning.

If they win, they can then suffer poor form until they get back to their comfort zone.

They can get onto 'Club' teams as their ability to perform above the standard in the handicap range makes them invalueable to the potential success of the Team.

They can come up with a range of reasons for their inability to play at a lower level of handicap, Age being the main one, also Pains, Yips, Tiredness, and all are plausible to the audience.

They quickly identify like minded people and then they can play their best golf in this environment and return scores, and sign cards, that bear no relation to the Actual scores on the course.

They know the Handicap Committee are generally nice people who don't want to get into conflict with anybody at the club.

They are MILKING the system for their own ends.

They have destroyed amateur golf.

And, finally, the Powers are congratulating Themselves on the success of Former amateurs in their Professional careers. Lauding themselves for their Academies and all the while letting the grassroots of Golf fend for itself, and the CHEATING minority ruin the Game for everyone else.

diarmuid05

Surely a maximum number of .1's in a single year would solve most of this???

stockdam

I'm not sure why this winds people up so much.

I play golf as a challenge to myself and to enjoy the occasional perfect shots I hit. I couldn't care less about winning and I certainly wouldn't quit because of some perceived issues.

@Dtoffee - societies can enforce their own rules for handicaps. You can cut or penalise anyone in any manner you choose (as long as it's approved by the committee). So if somebody wins then subtract 3 points from all of their scores for a year or whatever. If you think somebody may be cheating then split up their fourball and enforce a rule that the committee decides who plays with who or draw the names out of a hat. You can ask a committee member to always play with anyone who is under scrutiny. Societies are great as you can do whatever you want.

ProV

diarmuid05 wrote: »

Surely a maximum number of .1's in a single year would solve most of this???

all Handicapping software has a built in 2shot rule.This means if you start the year at say 16.3 (and end up playing poorly) you will only go to a max of 18.3.
Another example, you start the year at 8, then have a few good rounds and get cut to 5. Now you will only go back out to a max of 7.0.

AGC

ProV wrote: »

Another example, you start the year at 8, then have a few good rounds and get cut to 5. Now you will only go back out to a max of 7.0.

You sure?

I think it is 2 full shots in a year so if you start at 8 you can finish at 10 no matter what you get down to.

Could be wrong though

ProV

AGC wrote: »

You sure?

I think it is 2 full shots in a year so if you start at 8 you can finish at 10 no matter what you get down to.

Could be wrong though

That's the way it works on the club2000 software.

Dtoffee

stockdam wrote: »

@Dtoffee - societies can enforce their own rules for handicaps. You can cut or penalise anyone in any manner you choose (as long as it's approved by the committee). So if somebody wins then subtract 3 points from all of their scores for a year or whatever. If you think somebody may be cheating then split up their fourball and enforce a rule that the committee decides who plays with who or draw the names out of a hat. You can ask a committee member to always play with anyone who is under scrutiny. Societies are great as you can do whatever you want.

I know all of that and we tried it all, but you would not believe the lengths some people go to. I myself went out with this guy to keep an eye on him ....... next thing out of nowhere, he shows up at the first tee in a buggy claiming to have a leg problem. Sure enough he bombs off the first tee with his mate beside him and I'm left trying to run after him. His buggy was always between me and where he 'found' his ball and amazingly he would have a good lie no matter where he went. Eventually I nailed him at a par three, but total denial and according to him - he was just identifying his ball. I was threatened and his mate sung dumb, we had war in the clubhouse and how do you prove what you know is happening when its two against one. We knew then, that the Captains and committee were too weak so the majority of us just stopped playing. The Society folded soon after that, but proving that someone is cheating is very difficult and can lead you into a lot of legal issues as most cheats have a selection of weak willed mates that back them up as bonafide golfers without a blemish on their character.

Our new society is heaven, we have a strict admission policy and no one argument since we started two years ago. As the old saying goes : you can choose your friends !

diarmuid05

is there anything stopping someone from...

start of year having a handicap of 10.0
winning and getting cut 2.0 = 8.0
playing rubbish getting 20 x .1 = 10.0
winning getting cut 2.0 = 8.0
playing rubbish getting 20 x .1 = 10.0
winning getting cut 2.0 = 8.0
and so on......


a maximum of 20 x .1 in one year would solve this problem while keeping the 2.0 maximum rule in place

Nemesis

The wife...thats 43 rounds of golf!...not much room for so on....

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

death1234567

ziggy wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

The prizes they win are their solace.

Also one bandit I know likes having a handicap much higher than it should be. He can tell people he's a high handicapper and then they praise him for how well he's playing, he can win prizes virtually at will and when called on it he refuses to accept he's actually good at the game, 'just lucky today' etc. .Its the metality of the cheats that's the problem, they have no honour and live by some sort of flawed logic that makes everything they do okay in their own heads.

Dr_Colossus

Where are all these great prizes that are worth trying to build a handicap for in the hopes of performing on the day? Alot of prizes I've seen are of moderate value, vouchers in the region of €50-75 for 1st prize and porcelain/crystal for majors and the winning score is usually accompanied by a +2 shot cut. Entry fees are rather expensive and certainly add up if trying to gain 2.0 in handicap for the year.
Granted some players only enter team competitions so if their handicap is already overinflated then it's the committees responsibility to review strong performances, I thought there was something already something like this in place where if someone does well in 3 team competitions the committee takes an axe to their handicap?

k.p.h

Haha just looked at the times sheet for the weekend. Back to 13 holes now. People from all directions back from the wilderness, they only seemed to play team events and majors and now they are braving the manky weather for a poxy 13 hole competition. I find it amusing to be honest.

jimmystars

Dr_Colossus wrote: »

Where are all these great prizes that are worth trying to build a handicap for in the hopes of performing on the day? Alot of prizes I've seen are of moderate value, vouchers in the region of €50-75 for 1st prize and porcelain/crystal for majors and the winning score is usually accompanied by a +2 shot cut. Entry fees are rather expensive and certainly add up if trying to gain 2.0 in handicap for the year.
Granted some players only enter team competitions so if their handicap is already overinflated then it's the committees responsibility to review strong performances, I thought there was something already something like this in place where if someone does well in 3 team competitions the committee takes an axe to their handicap?

Fotas recent irish examiner society comp had a first prize of a holiday to the algarve and 6 months membership of fota or something like that :D. Would consider prizes like this would encourage people to get their .1 instead of finishing in the buffer zone.

Tones69

ziggy wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Feel exact same way myself, isnt the whole point to try get better and see how low u can get? If i could play to 7 id feel like a clown playing off 17

ProV

diarmuid05 wrote: »

is there anything stopping someone from...

start of year having a handicap of 10.0
winning and getting cut 2.0 = 8.0
playing rubbish getting 20 x .1 = 10.0
winning getting cut 2.0 = 8.0
playing rubbish getting 20 x .1 = 10.0
winning getting cut 2.0 = 8.0
and so on......


a maximum of 20 x .1 in one year would solve this problem while keeping the 2.0 maximum rule in place

Yes they can do that, but it would be a very boring and lengthy process !
Also sometimes they may end up in their buffer zone or the competition ends up reduction only, so no .1's back in those cases.
Only a small % of golfers would get 20 x .1s back in a season, never mind 60 x.

Having said that, a 20 x .1's limit is very good idea.
you should get your Hon Sec to propose it at the next GUI AGM on 22/11/11

Dr_Colossus

jimmystars wrote: »

Fotas recent irish examiner society comp had a first prize of a holiday to the algarve and 6 months membership of fota or something like that :D. Would consider prizes like this would encourage people to get their .1 instead of finishing in the buffer zone.

Jees that's an unreal prize. Is there not a limit as to the value of prizes for amateur competitions, something like €250 worth?
If those are the sort of prizes on offer then surely groupings would be random to ensure everyone is watching each other closely and no false scores recorded? Good idea also to have majors at club level randomly selected in terms of tee times, it's what happens in my club. It gets members to mingle and get to know one another instead of playing in the usual weekend 3 ball.

conno16

reality is that the GUI need to employ some sort of mobile enforcement crew.

dnjoyce

Dr_Colossus wrote: »

Jees that's an unreal prize. Is there not a limit as to the value of prizes for amateur competitions, something like €250 worth?
If those are the sort of prizes on offer then surely groupings would be random to ensure everyone is watching each other closely and no false scores recorded? Good idea also to have majors at club level randomly selected in terms of tee times, it's what happens in my club. It gets members to mingle and get to know one another instead of playing in the usual weekend 3 ball.

I think (might be mistaken) that the OP was more talking about Handicap Banditos as opposed to actual magic pencil cheating to record lower scores. But I agree though, prizes like these lend themselves to false handicapping - the organizers couldn't care less as long as they cover their costs with the large entry fees. Normal golfers suffer.

dnjoyce

conno16 wrote: »

reality is that the GUI need to employ some sort of mobile enforcement crew.

sounds like a job for your good self Conno - when you're old enough that is

Nemesis

The Congu h'cap system (Calculating CSS and adjusting etc) along with the annual handicap review are the only practical powers handicap committees have.

But....

A handicap can be adjusted in ‘Exceptional Circumstances’ under general play.

This is from Golfing union of Wales so may be different from Ireland (doubt it).

General Play Clause 23.b
This Clause permits the adjustment of a player’s handicap in ‘Exceptional Circumstances’ which is now clarified by the following FAQ.



Q. Clause 23.7 of the CONGU UHS states that ‘In exceptional circumstances the Handicap Committee may adjust the handicap of a player in the period between Annual Reviews if there is compelling evidence that his Exact Handicap does not reflect his current playing ability’.



What are ‘exceptional circumstances’?



A. Circumstances that may be regarded as ‘exceptional’ include:



(a) Impaired golfing ability resulting from extended illness or injury.

(b) The need to correct a handicap that was allocated at an inappropriate level.

(c) The return of a series of good scores in Qualifying Competitions within a short timeframe by a hitherto infrequent competitor.

(d) A number of, probably three or more, good playing performances in Non-Qualifying competitions such as Mixed Foursomes, Four-Ball Better Ball events, Corporate or Society days by a player who otherwise may not participate with any regularity in Qualifying Competitions.

In a society you can do what you like but it aint quite as easy in a Congu affiliated club

Myksyk

ProV wrote: »

Yes they can do that, but it would be a very boring and lengthy process !
Also sometimes they may end up in their buffer zone or the competition ends up reduction only, so no .1's back in those cases.
Only a small % of golfers would get 20 x .1s back in a season, never mind 60 x.

Having said that, a 20 x .1's limit is very good idea.
you should get your Hon Sec to propose it at the next GUI AGM on 22/11/11

Unfortunately this is EXACTLY what the real bandits do. I submitted a motion to the Munster Branch a couple of weeks ago for the upcoming regional meeting proposing that 0.1s are limited to 20 in any given year. I'm not holding my breath.

kyleman

Dont hold your breath Myksyk as the income to golf clubs will fall dramatically on their open days when the bandits have got their 20 .1s for the year so you just will not get clubs to agree to this proposal even though it makes perfect sense

tamloc

A certain comp. every year ran by a newspaper has a lot to answer for

ProV

Myksyk wrote: »

Unfortunately this is EXACTLY what the real bandits do. I submitted a motion to the Munster Branch a couple of weeks ago for the upcoming regional meeting proposing that 0.1s are limited to 20 in any given year. I'm not holding my breath.

Well done Myksky for proposing it, I reckon it's a no brainer if the GUI think about it ....
Regardless of economics, it's about fairplay for all !

kyleman

tamloc wrote: »

A certain comp. every year ran by a newspaper has a lot to answer for

Have to agree with you and think the prizes for these comps create a lot of the problems as the real prize in golf should be to better yourself and you handicap and i would love to see the GUI reduce substantially the prizes an amateur golfer could receive in value

neckedit

Is the max a player get back all ready not 2 in any given year, I'm sure this used to be the case.

Myksyk

neckedit wrote: »

Is the max a player get back all ready not 2 in any given year, I'm sure this used to be the case.

There's a difference between getting two shots back and only being allowed 20 0.1s. You can go from 16 to 18 (20 0.1s), get cut 2 shots then start again and get another 20 0.1s. Currently there is no limit to the number of times you can oscillate like this in a year. If your 0.1s were limited you could go from 16 to 18 but once cut you could not get any more 0.1s in the year.

neckedit

Myksyk wrote: »

There's a difference between getting two shots back and only being allowed 20 0.1s. You can go from 16 to 18 (20 0.1s), get cut 2 shots then start again and get another 20 0.1s. Currently there is no limit to the number of times you can oscillate like this in a year. If your 0.1s were limited you could go from 16 to 18 but once cut you could not get any more 0.1s in the year.

To be fair you'd need to play in a hell of a lot of competitions to yo yo like that,
I do agree with you entirely though, but is the problem really with magic pencils, leather wedges and players jamming on the brakes when the score is on??

conno16

tamloc wrote: »

A certain comp. every year ran by a newspaper has a lot to answer for

The Star is it?

GreeBo

Guys this is not going to get into a club bashing thread.

kagni

neckedit wrote: »

To be fair you'd need to play in a hell of a lot of competitions to yo yo like that,
I do agree with you entirely though, but is the problem really with magic pencils, leather wedges and players jamming on the brakes when the score is on??

I've heard of fellas playing in 3 comps in one day, obviously they couldn't have finished any of the rounds but they got their 3 X .1s.
The bandits always seem to find a way.

slave1

Why let 'cheats' concern you? I play my game, against the course, not interested in prizes or whether 47 points or 34 points win, I just want to play well, get better and enjoy myself, life is short, move on.

thewobbler

While cheating does seem to be prevalent, some of the comments and ideas on here are just petty.

On any given day in an open competition, somebody is going to hit 40+ points. This isn't handicap maintenance, it's a fact of life. When you get 8 hours sleep, a good breakfast, and have that unusual feeling of coordination and timing working in sync, then these things are possible. Particularly if you're out in a group where everyone is playing well and bouncing off each other.

The time and care involved in maintaining a handicap 5 shots worse than your normal talent (so that 41 points is possible on normal play), is extraordinary, and in my opinion too extraordinary for it to happen everywhere. It takes an awful lot of dud cards, over a long stretch of time, to make this possible. We're not talking about the occasional .1 here, we're talking months of .1s. Getting one stroke back on your handicap is hardly the stuff of banditry.


If someone is doctoring their card to win, that's a different story. But that's why we are members of clubs and have rules and ethics in the game. A good committee would be more aware of this than you think.

Dr_Colossus

slave1 wrote: »

Why let 'cheats' concern you? I play my game, against the course, not interested in prizes or whether 47 points or 34 points win, I just want to play well, get better and enjoy myself, life is short, move on.

You don't enter competitions so? If you do why bother since the prizes don't interest or concern you? You can't really lower your handicap without playing in qualifying competitions and beating the CSS.

For me I enjoy playing in competitions more than merely playing a round, the added concentration and competitive element usually results in me playing better which adds to the enjoyment. I enter competitions to win and aim to better my scores and reduce my handicap, entry fees are not cheap so for the occasional good score returned I'd like to think I was in with a shout of winning.

I've no problem with people bringing in big scores of 42+pts since anyone is likely to have a good day and you don't know how much practice and effort that player put into their game to enable them to score as such. For such a score their handicap will get cut and level the playing field for the next competition.

The problem is with people bringing in occasional big scores, often in the bigger competitions, followed by weeks of poor performances and N/R to score well again at the next big event. In the yearly reviews do competition secretaries track players scores to see if there are any handicap building trends and note their number of N/Rs? Surely players should be sanctioned if they return a certain number of N/Rs over the year.

From a general handicap perspective why are players awarded +0.1 for a N/R? I would have thought a N/R is just that, not conforming with the competition and returning a score so their card should be excluded from handicap considerations etc.

link_2007

I've seen it mentioned in this thread a few times so it seems as good a place as any to ask rather than cluttering the forum up with another thread.

Is there any website and/or previous thread where the point system is explained in terms that a complete starter would understand? I understand what a handicap is and how it works but the point scoring part is confusing me slightly.

slave1

Dr_Colossus wrote: »

You don't enter competitions so? If you do why bother since the prizes don't interest or concern you? You can't really lower your handicap without playing in qualifying competitions and beating the CSS.

I do play in competitions, to lower my handicap as you laid out, not to win prizes, I'm not interested in nor get bothered by the level of prizes if that makes sense.
I concur with all in the rest of your post, and most of the earlier posts.
The point of my post is that surely there are others out there that play to play against the course and not others.

k.p.h

Dr_Colossus wrote: »

From a general handicap perspective why are players awarded +0.1 for a N/R? I would have thought a N/R is just that, not conforming with the competition and returning a score so their card should be excluded from handicap considerations etc.

No 0.1 for a N/R at my home course, I would have presumed it was the same everywhere else..?

golfnut1

link_2007 wrote: »

I've seen it mentioned in this thread a few times so it seems as good a place as any to ask rather than cluttering the forum up with another thread.

Is there any website and/or previous thread where the point system is explained in terms that a complete starter would understand? I understand what a handicap is and how it works but the point scoring part is confusing me slightly.

Try this....

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stableford

link_2007

Much obliged, golfnut.

AldilaMan

Dr_Colossus wrote: »

You don't enter competitions so? If you do why bother since the prizes don't interest or concern you? You can't really lower your handicap without playing in qualifying competitions and beating the CSS.

For me I enjoy playing in competitions more than merely playing a round, the added concentration and competitive element usually results in me playing better which adds to the enjoyment. I enter competitions to win and aim to better my scores and reduce my handicap, entry fees are not cheap so for the occasional good score returned I'd like to think I was in with a shout of winning.

I've no problem with people bringing in big scores of 42+pts since anyone is likely to have a good day and you don't know how much practice and effort that player put into their game to enable them to score as such. For such a score their handicap will get cut and level the playing field for the next competition.

The problem is with people bringing in occasional big scores, often in the bigger competitions, followed by weeks of poor performances and N/R to score well again at the next big event. In the yearly reviews do competition secretaries track players scores to see if there are any handicap building trends and note their number of N/Rs? Surely players should be sanctioned if they return a certain number of N/Rs over the year.

From a general handicap perspective why are players awarded +0.1 for a N/R? I would have thought a N/R is just that, not conforming with the competition and returning a score so their card should be excluded from handicap considerations etc.

This would create cheating at the other end of the scale. People striving to reduce their handicap would only return scores better than CSS or scores in the buffer. I got 26 .1s back this year so I could have played off 8 instead of 11 (10.8) if I didn't return those crap cards. I also got 8 cuts this year totalling 3.6 so I dropped a shot this year. I think 10 is a true reflection of my ability - didn't quite get there this year but I'm not off 8 as much as I'd love to say I am

mirrorball

Three and four man team events are a joke. You can't go out in a singles or a fourball without a marker. Yet in a team event marking your own card is deemed ok??? Some of these charity team comps offer holidays abroad as first prize. That's just asking for trouble.