Got a speeding ticket but not sure who was driving..what happens

derek2901

I recently got a fixed charge notice for speeding (59 km in a 50 km zone)- fine is €80 plus 2 penalty points.

Problem is neither me or my passenger can remember who was driving at that time for certain. I have asked for the photo and was told that it is not very clear (it was 11.10 pm). In other words they can't identify the driver. What should I do? Is it possible to get this quashed as they cannot prove beyond doubt who was driving?

winston82

Your car, your responsibility?

pa990

its up the the registered owner to say who was in charge of the car at the time.

if the registered owner cant name someone, them they (reg owner) takes the hit.

No chance of it being quashed


beaten to it by winston..

n900guy

AFAIK, the ticket is sent to the registered owner of the car. They are the one automatically liable, unless they have another drive prove by signature that they were the ones driving.

So basically, the Gardai do not need to prove who was driving. The registered owner is automatically the person charged under the fixed penalty unless you prove otherwise.

*AFAIK*

CiniO

According to what was said on this forum many times, if you can't say who was driving, or even if you point out person who was driving, but such person doesn't pay the fine, responsibility goes back to you.

Seems to be unbelievable, as that way you might get fined for something you didn't do.
They assume it was you driving as this was your car, which actually is against general rule of anyone being innocent until proven guilty.

Unfortunately that seems to be the way it works in Ireland.

Gaffs89

n900guy wrote: »

AFAIK, the ticket is sent to the registered owner of the car. They are the one automatically liable, unless they have another drive prove by signature that they were the ones driving.

So basically, the Gardai do not need to prove who was driving. The registered owner is automatically the person charged under the fixed penalty unless you prove otherwise.

*AFAIK*

Yep. It's the registered owner who gets the fine and points. If somebody else was driving there is a section on the notice that the owner fills out with the drivers license details of the person who was driving, that person has to sign it accepting the fine and points.But the registered owner is responsible if nobody else takes the hit.

TwoShedsJackson

How does it work elsewhere then? Is there a country out there that you can just say 'oh I can't remember who was driving' and so the police just rip up the ticket?

CiniO

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

How does it work elsewhere then? Is there a country out there that you can just say 'oh I can't remember who was driving' and so the police just rip up the ticket?

I would ask rather if there is any other country than Ireland, where you can get fines for speeding which you didn't do. I strongly doubt it.

ScouseMouse

A couple of years ago, I got a letter about speeding in Sheffield in the UK.

I binned it, along with the following letter.

The driver who nominated me never heard any more :rolleyes:

testicle

CiniO wrote: »

I would ask rather if there is any other country than Ireland, where you can get fines for speeding which you didn't do. I strongly doubt it.

If you won't admit to being the driver, it'll go to court, and the court will presume you innocent, and decide on the book of evidence whether you were driving or not, thus finding you guilty/innocent.

doopa

CiniO wrote: »

I would ask rather if there is any other country than Ireland, where you can get fines for speeding which you didn't do. I strongly doubt it.

It the same in other places, the UK and Germany for example. The owner of the car gets the fine, its up to them to know who is responsible for their vehicle at the time the incident occured. The vehicle was speeding, the owner is responsible for that vehicle, the owner is responsible for drivers, etc etc.

ResearchWill

testicle wrote: »

If you won't admit to being the driver, it'll go to court, and the court will presume you innocent, and decide on the book of evidence whether you were driving or not, thus finding you guilty/innocent.

There is no book of evidence in a speeding case. Also this is one of the few areas of law where the presumption has been passed to the accused. So that means the guards give evidence that a certain car was speeding, they must prove that on the usual criminal standard. Now then the onus passes to you to prove you did not drive the car at that date and time, this was held to be constitutional, because it is knowledge only you would have, and the offenses are minor.

pa990

testicle wrote: »

If you won't admit to being the driver, it'll go to court, and the court will presume you innocent, and decide on the book of evidence whether you were driving or not, thus finding you guilty/innocent.

really ?

because the registered owner of a vehicle is responsible for it.

CiniO

doopa wrote: »

It the same in other places, the UK and Germany for example. The owner of the car gets the fine, its up to them to know who is responsible for their vehicle at the time the incident occured. The vehicle was speeding, the owner is responsible for that vehicle, the owner is responsible for drivers, etc etc.

Of course it's up to owner to know who was driving.
But in case owner doesn't know, and claims it was not him, then they can't fine him for speeding, unless they prove it was him (f.e. picture of drivers from speed camera).
I'm sure owner then can be penalised for not disclosing the driver, but not for speeding.

And that's the way it works in UK or Germany.

Imagine a hypothetical situation in Ireland.

Your brother who lives in UK comes here to visit you. You lend him your car for a day.
Week later you get a speeding fine. You know it was not you but your brother, so you send a statement to the Gardai that it was your brother driving at the time, and disclose them his address.

They send a fine to him, but he bin's it.
Then they come back to you and fine you for speeding, which you never committed.
If situation repeats few times, you might loose your licence by exceeding point. Your insurance will go up drastically. Even you yourself never ever broke any rule of the road.

That's madness.

CiniO

pa990 wrote: »

really ?

because the registered owner of a vehicle is responsible for it.

Responsible for vehicle, but not responsible for offences other people commit while driving it.

Our man in Havana

this was held to be constitutional,

When? I must have missed that one.

Gaffs89

CiniO wrote: »

Of course it's up to owner to know who was driving.
But in case owner doesn't know, and claims it was not him, then they can't fine him for speeding, unless they prove it was him (f.e. picture of drivers from speed camera).
I'm sure owner then can be penalised for not disclosing the driver, but not for speeding.

And that's the way it works in UK or Germany.

Imagine a hypothetical situation in Ireland.

Your brother who lives in UK comes here to visit you. You lend him your car for a day.
Week later you get a speeding fine. You know it was not you but your brother, so you send a statement to the Gardai that it was your brother driving at the time, and disclose them his address.

They send a fine to him, but he bin's it.
Then they come back to you and fine you for speeding, which you never committed.
If situation repeats few times, you might loose your licence by exceeding point. Your insurance will go up drastically. Even you yourself never ever broke any rule of the road.

That's madness.

Why would keep letting your Stupid brother borrow your car!

Gophur

This is a prime example of bad Law. The owner of the car is deemed guilty and has to prove his/her innocence. It's a joke. The authorities should have to identify the alleged law breaker, and should not be able to cop out by just sending a letter.

pa990

Gophur wrote: »

This is a prime example of bad Law. The owner of the car is deemed guilty and has to prove his/her innocence. It's a joke. The authorities should have to identify the alleged law breaker, and should not be able to cop out by just sending a letter.

going OT here, but..

what if a car was involved in a fatal accident, (no witness's) and the driver ran off.
The reg owner says "i cant remember who was driving"
does that mean that nothing further should happen.. NO it doesnt

anyway.. back on topic

ScouseMouse

doopa wrote: »

It the same in other places, the UK and Germany for example. The owner of the car gets the fine, its up to them to know who is responsible for their vehicle at the time the incident occured. The vehicle was speeding, the owner is responsible for that vehicle, the owner is responsible for drivers, etc etc.

Sorry but I have first hand experience of this one.

I was named by the owner of a car caught speeding in the UK. He named me as the driver.

I binned both letters which arrived in Dublin asking me to confirm this.

NOTHING happened after that.

p.s I have never been in sheffield.

CiniO

Gaffs89 wrote: »

Why would keep letting your Stupid brother borrow your car!

I can ask the same - why not?

Assume it's not between brothers, but between boss and employee.
Boss owns the car, and has someone who drives for him. Why would a boss have to pay all the fines and take the points, if his employee commits offences.

CiniO

pa990 wrote: »

going OT here, but..

what if a car was involved in a fatal accident, (no witness's) and the driver ran off.
The reg owner says "i cant remember who was driving"
does that mean that nothing further should happen.. NO it doesnt

anyway.. back on topic

Please tell me you are joking.

Assume car owner and few other people were drinking. No one remembers anything.
Someone took the car, and caused fatal accident.
No witnesses, as you said.

Are you really trying to say, that it's the car owner who should be prosecuted for killing someone, even if no one really knows who's done it?


If that's how it works in this country, I'm emigrating tomorrow.

pa990

CiniO wrote: »

Please tell me you are joking.

Assume car owner and few other people were drinking. No one remembers anything.
Someone took the car, and caused fatal accident.
No witnesses, as you said.

Are you really trying to say, that it's the car owner who should be prosecuted for killing someone, even if no one really knows who's done it?


If that's how it works in this country, I'm emigrating tomorrow.

http://www.aerlingus.com/home/index.jsp

Gaffs89

superscouse wrote: »

Sorry but I have first hand experience of this one.

I was named by the owner of a car caught speeding in the UK. He named me as the driver.

I binned both letters which arrived in Dublin asking me to confirm this.

NOTHING happened after that.

p.s I have never been in sheffield.

Yes nothing happened to you and you were not the owner.Did you know the owner? , did he still get the fine and points?

CiniO

pa990 wrote: »

http://www.aerlingus.com/home/index.jsp

They've got only 20kg luggage limit.
I won't fit all my stuff.

CiniO

Gaffs89 wrote: »

Yes nothing happened to you and you were not the owner.Did you know the owner? , did he still get the fine and points?

Thinking logically how could the owner get fine and points for speeding, considering he wasn't speeding?

Gaffs89

CiniO wrote: »

Thinking logically how could the owner get fine and points for speeding, considering he wasn't speeding?

We don't know this all we know from Superscouse is that he was named by an owner in the UK.

Gaffs89

CiniO wrote: »

I can ask the same - why not?

Assume it's not between brothers, but between boss and employee.
Boss owns the car, and has someone who drives for him. Why would a boss have to pay all the fines and take the points, if his employee commits offences.

The boss make sure anybody who drives for him knows they are responsable for any fines/ points.
Lending a car or van to somebody is not like lending a garden rake to a neighbor.There are lots and lots of laws just dealing with Motor vechicles. Not any that I know of dealing garden rakes.

CiniO

Gaffs89 wrote: »

The boss make sure anybody who drives for him knows they are responsable for any fines/ points.

How can he make sure?
Assume employee starts driving, and commits 6 speeding offences during few weeks.
Then quits his job.
Boss receives all six fines in the post then, and nominates his employee.
Employee denies it was him, and doesn't accept the fines.
According to what was said here, then the boss who is the vehicle owner receives all 6 fines and 12 penalty points, meaning he get a driving ban for 6 years, even he never committed any offence.

Lending a car or van to somebody is not like lending a garden rake to a neighbor.There are lots and lots of laws just dealing with Motor vechicles. Not any that I know of dealing garden rakes.

What law would there be dealing with lending motor vehicles.
All laws I know is that owner must make sure that vehicle is taxed, tested, and person who he is lending a car is insured to drive it.
Owner can't take responsibility for traffic offences or crimes commited by person driving his car.

CiniO

Gaffs89 wrote: »

Yes nothing happened to you and you were not the owner.Did you know the owner? , did he still get the fine and points?

He already answered your question earlier.

superscouse wrote: »

A couple of years ago, I got a letter about speeding in Sheffield in the UK.

I binned it, along with the following letter.

The driver who nominated me never heard any more

I would be strongly surprices if owner got fined for speeding in UK after nominating someone else, unless they could prove it was him driving and speeding.

Henry Ford III

Our man in Havana

In the UK, if the owner fails to nominate someone they are charged with failing to furnish information, 6 points and a fine of 500 to 1000 pounds. Unless they name someone they will be stuck with something worse than the speeding.

derek2901

not sure if this contradicts your earlier post?

Registered owner is responsible unless he can assign it to another and that other person agrees- that's it in a nutshell right?

CiniO

derek2901 wrote: »

not sure if this contradicts your earlier post?

Registered owner is responsible unless he can assign it to another and that other person agrees- that's it in a nutshell right?

Earlier post was about Ireland.
That one was about UK.

CiniO

Our man in Havana wrote: »

In the UK, if the owner fails to nominate someone they are charged with failing to furnish information, 6 points and a fine of 500 to 1000 pounds. Unless they name someone they will be stuck with something worse than the speeding.

That's fair enough, assuming it doesn't come back to owner if other person bins the fine.
One thing I'm wondering.
6 penalty points?
What in case owner doesn't have a licence.
Obviously not every car owner needs to have a licence.

ScouseMouse

Gaffs89 wrote: »

Yes nothing happened to you and you were not the owner.Did you know the owner? , did he still get the fine and points?

CiniO wrote: »

I would be strongly surprices if owner got fined for speeding in UK after nominating someone else, unless they could prove it was him driving and speeding.

I knew the owner and nothing ever happened. No points or anything.

It did occur to me that if I was pulled in the UK, something may pop up, but the plan is :"while I borrowed the car, I was asleep in the back and my mate billy was driving."

If it ever happened again, you could name billy murphy as the driver and if a letter arrived, I could sign it billy murphy.

(Although that could be illegal so I wouldn't do such a thing :rolleyes:)

Our man in Havana

CiniO wrote: »

That's fair enough, assuming it doesn't come back to owner if other person bins the fine.
One thing I'm wondering.
6 penalty points?
What in case owner doesn't have a licence.
Obviously not every car owner needs to have a licence.

If the owner has no licence (a company for example) then no points just the fine.

Gaffs89

Ok so who has the better system? In Ireland if you lend your car to a friend and the "friend" gets caught on camera speeding and then refuses to accept responsibility . Then the owner gets the points and fine for being so naive as to trust their friend.
Or the Uk system where according to some other posts all you have to do is look up a name and address of someone outside the Uk and claim they were driving and you get away scot free.There are speed cameras all over the UK , the average British speeder must be very honest or very stupid .I don't think so.

Our man in Havana

Or the Uk system where according to some other posts all you have to do is look up a name and address of someone outside the Uk and claim they were driving and you get away scot free

The UK cops are wise to that old rouse. They will demand evidence that this "friend" from abroad was driving. If they find you are lying a holiday with Bubba awaits you for perverting the course of justice.

Gaffs89

Our man in Havana wrote: »

The UK cops are wise to that old rouse. They will demand evidence that this "friend" from abroad was driving. If they find you are lying a holiday with Bubba awaits you for perverting the course of justice.

Good to know.

ScouseMouse

Our man in Havana wrote: »

The UK cops are wise to that old rouse. They will demand evidence that this "friend" from abroad was driving. If they find you are lying a holiday with Bubba awaits you for perverting the course of justice.

You have a way with words and I like it !:D

vetstu

A UK case, but if the photo doesn't show whos driving, you might have a case

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-202833/Christine-Hamilton-cleared-speeding.html

TheZ

A person could do the following if they were not driving

- decide to fight the case in court
- produce the driver on the day to testify that they were driving and not the owner
- case against owner is thrown out
- law does not allow Gardai to go after the driver as it is outside time limit to issue a summons

firefly08

What if it was a fine for tax? Out of curiosity, who would be responsible then?

A person could do the following if they were not driving

- decide to fight the case in court
- produce the driver on the day to testify that they were driving and not the owner
- case against owner is thrown out
- law does not allow Gardai to go after the driver as it is outside time limit to issue a summons

Yep, plus, even if they could go after him, wouldn't they need your testimony in his court case? They wouldn't have any other evidence against him. They couldn't force you to give evidence, so wouldn't they have to let it go?

Our man in Havana

Not a lot they could do.

Until they introduce an offence of failing to name, the situation as above can play out.

Gaffs89

firefly08 wrote: »

What if it was a fine for tax? Out of curiosity, who would be responsible then?

A person could do the following if they were not driving

- decide to fight the case in court
- produce the driver on the day to testify that they were driving and not the owner
- case against owner is thrown out
- law does not allow Gardai to go after the driver as it is outside time limit to issue a summons

Yep, plus, even if they could go after him, wouldn't they need your testimony in his court case? They wouldn't have any other evidence against him. They couldn't force you to give evidence, so wouldn't they have to let it go?

This is great news. Who's going to go first then?
Of course they could force you and if you tell a different story from the one you told the first time you'll be done for perjury and Bubba will be waiting ,as our man in Havanna put so well before.

firefly08

Of course they could force you

How?

TheZ

How is it perjury? You are simply exercising right to go to court.

You wait until court date, as you are entitled to and tell story there and the driver admits he was driving. At that point the alleged speeding offense will be outside time period for fixed penalty or summons.

Remember the court system would break down if everybody exercised their right to go to court over alleged speeding offences

dharn

if they cant identify who was driving..do you have an old granny with a licence..

firefly08

How is it perjury? You are simply exercising right to go to court.

I think he meant it would perjury if you accused the other guy in your court case and then gave a different story in his one. This is assuming that the Gaurds could somehow charge him, presumably if the time limit had not run out or whatever. But in that case, I can't see how they could proceed without your voluntary cooperation. Human memory is fickle - I have never heard of anyone being forced to testify to a certain effect against their will.