Diesel cars, no joke..plenty of poke

EPM

Vectra, that other car is a white 08 petrol. It's for sale, on mobile so no link!

vectra

Matt Simis wrote: »

The second option sounds quite cool! And has the benefit of being able to be done fairly soon vs waiting on the new model. Add an LSD to the list if you get a remap.

Well,
It depends on what engine options are going to be with the new one.
Also I hear it is going to be bigger which I am not sure is what I want.
Then there would be the option of the Mission L ( I think ) which apparently will be in or around the octy size..

Hmm...
I still have a few months left to decide anyway so no rush just yet, But yea, More poke would be nice..Getting so used to this one now I am thinking it has lost about 50bhp

vectra

EPM wrote: »

Vectra, that other car is a white 08 petrol. It's for sale, on mobile so no link!

This it?
http://cars.donedeal.ie/for-sale/cars/2658910

omb0wyn5ehpij9

vectra wrote: »

This it?
http://cars.donedeal.ie/for-sale/cars/2658910

Yeah that's it. The thing looks like it has just rolled out of the factory!

vectra

BDJW wrote: »

Yeah that's it. The thing looks like it has just rolled out of the factory!

I would believe it,, with only 4k on the clock
Like the sunroof on it.:cool:

-Corkie-

Eamon has a new white one in the showroom I thought you might have had your name on it. Shur if you sell private it will cost you very little to change..

vectra

-Corkie- wrote: »

Eamon has a new white one in the showroom I thought you might have had your name on it. Shur if you sell private it will cost you very little to change..

Going over to them next Wednesday.

vectra

vectra wrote: »

Going over to them next Wednesday.

Weren't you going 330d or something next time?

-Corkie-

vectra wrote: »

Going over to them next Wednesday.

I actually thought that was your car from the pics the lads had taken. Hard to see how a 08 has only 4k on it and it says FSH. I suppose she serviced it anually which would be 3 times. Very nice car but the price is very strong imo.

vectra

RoverJames wrote: »

Weren't you going 330d or something next time?

Still an option but not option number one.

-Corkie- wrote: »

I actually thought that was your car from the pics the lads had taken. Hard to see how a 08 has only 4k on it and it says FSH. I suppose she serviced it anually which would be 3 times. Very nice car but the price is very strong imo.

Only going over to get a rear speaker replaced.
Will be in deep discussion regarding changing.

Berty

Shame you cannot inspect the Octavia, what with the bonnet not opening and all.

EPM

-Corkie- wrote: »

I actually thought that was your car from the pics the lads had taken. Hard to see how a 08 has only 4k on it and it says FSH. I suppose she serviced it anually which would be 3 times. Very nice car but the price is very strong imo.

It's asking for a service. Flashing on the dash. Was on sale earlier in the year for about 6k more with 1-2k on it. Think it's just a freak low mileage car tbh.

EPM

-Corkie- wrote: »

Eamon has a new white one in the showroom I thought you might have had your name on it. Shur if you sell private it will cost you very little to change..

Was lovely before he stuck those bloody wheels on it. That's got some nice extras though.

-Corkie-

EPM wrote: »

Was lovely before he stuck those bloody wheels on it. That's got some nice extras though.

I seen that. The drl's are nice on them.

EPM

-Corkie- wrote: »

I seen that. The drl's are nice on them.

That's got xenons, heated seats and sat nav too.

Mr Benevolent

EPM wrote: »

That's got xenons, heated seats and sat nav too.

Can someone remind me why people are practically orgasming over an Octavia? I'm not being (very) sarcastic here, I'd really like to know. Sure, they're nice cars and the VRS has a bit of poke, but... why?

Confab

Confab wrote: »

Can someone remind me why people are practically orgasming over an Octavia? I'm not being (very) sarcastic here, I'd really like to know. Sure, they're nice cars and the VRS has a bit of poke, but... why?

Dunno, they're the Golf GTTDi of recession Ireland.

That petrol one for sale has one of the most awful interiors colour schemes I've ever seen.

EPM

Confab wrote: »

Can someone remind me why people are practically orgasming over an Octavia? I'm not being (very) sarcastic here, I'd really like to know. Sure, they're nice cars and the VRS has a bit of poke, but... why?

Who is here exactly? It came up in chat, there was quite a nice example came in Saturday and it went from there.

While the cars a piss take around here, this is a motors forum and we were discussing the car. It might not be to your taste but, in this thread at least, things can be off topic and God forbid some people who might like VAG cars discuss them.

But then again the first mention of one always has the keyboard hardmen out. I'll thank your post as I assume that's what you're looking for?

EPM

RoverJames wrote: »

Dunno, they're the Golf GTTDi of recession Ireland.

That petrol one for sale has one of the most awful interiors colour schemes I've ever seen.

I'm curious as to what's up with it? I know everyone's taste is different but that's standard spec and most people that have seen them like it.

Mr Benevolent

EPM wrote: »

Who is here exactly? It came up in chat, there was quite a nice example came in Saturday and it went from there.

While the cars a piss take around here, this is a motors forum and we were discussing the car. It might not be to your taste but, in this thread at least, things can be off topic and God forbid some people who might like VAG cars discuss them.

But then again the first mention of one always has the keyboard hardmen out. I'll thank your post as I assume that's what you're looking for?

Eh? THanks? Keyboard hardmen? I was asking why the VRS is held in such esteem, they just look a bit silly to me - a bit of bling on a remapped Octavia TDI. I wasn't looking to offend, just wondering what attracts people to them. For balance, I think the Impreza WRX STI looks silly as well. Again, no offence intended, just looking for a reason out of interest.

Attractions I note are:

1. Reasonable poke
2. Good economy
3. Can be remapped
4. As useful as a standard Octy
5. Can have DSG.

Turnoffs (imo)

1. Chavvy - looks like it should have a diamante spoiler and Burberry interior.

That's it. Not trying to troll, just airing my opinion.

RoverJames

RoverJames wrote: »

....................
That petrol one for sale has one of the most awful interiors colour schemes I've ever seen.

EPM wrote: »

I'm curious as to what's up with it? I know everyone's taste is different but that's standard spec and most people that have seen them like it.

I think the white bits are awful with the grey

EPM wrote: »

Who is here exactly? ..............

But then again the first mention of one always has the keyboard hardmen out. I'll thank your post as I assume that's what you're looking for?

Keyboard hardmen? Who are you referring to?

EPM

Confab wrote: »

Eh? THanks? Keyboard hardmen? I was asking why the VRS is held in such esteem, they just look a bit silly to me - a bit of bling on a remapped Octavia TDI. I wasn't looking to offend, just wondering what attracts people to them. For balance, I think the Impreza WRX STI looks silly as well. Again, no offence intended, just looking for a reason out of interest.

Attractions I note are:

1. Reasonable poke
2. Good economy
3. Can be remapped
4. As useful as a standard Octy
5. Can have DSG.

Turnoffs (imo)

1. Chavvy - looks like it should have a diamante spoiler and Burberry interior.

That's it. Not trying to troll, just airing my opinion.

Burberry interior? In what way? It's a very, very bland interior IMO. Black dash, black seats a small bit of grey and silver trim is all they have?

Well I'm looking at about 65k km for the year in a few months. For the money, you wont get anything that can touch it for age/spec/performance/comfort/space. When I was changing motors I spent months trying everything in both petrol and diesel. I genuinely test drove about 40 cars in that time. All were 150+ brake which is enough for commuting tools in this country.

The people that knock them usually have zero experience. I'll probably be accused of being a fanboy again (and my post history shows little references to the cars) but compared to most of the other hatches in its class it's on a par overall. It's got a bit more sheet metal to drag around but it's well able to move, turn and stop. I've had reliability issues with mine but in saying that I genuinely think the only car I would have before it now would be a RS Megane.

And for the diesel bit, a lot of the people that moan about petrol being better barely touch 10k a year, pottering about town at that. For a long commute it's a much more relaxing car, great midrange and it doesn't have you grabbing for a lower gear to get it going. Mine was nearly 180bhp and I defy anyone to find a car with that power, with the spec, the all round ability for that price. The badge snobs will no doubt produce something much older.

It's not the best car in the world but it's a match for most of the cars that are raved about here.

EPM

RoverJames wrote: »

I think the white bits are awful with the grey





Keyboard hardmen? Who are you referring to?

What white bits?!?

I was referring specifically to the post I quoted with the rest. It's quite obvious really.

EPM

EPM wrote: »

What white bits?!?

I was referring specifically to the post I quoted with the rest. It's quite obvious really.

I'm on about the whitish grey bits (whatever the feck they are), contrasting with the dark grey of the dash, I think it looks awful.

Re the keyboard warriers/hardmen I didn't know who you were on about as I presumed it wasn't Confab as he posted nothing to warrant that tag.

Mr Benevolent

The people that knock them usually have zero experience. I'll probably be accused of being a fanboy again (and my post history shows little references to the cars) but compared to most of the other hatches in its class it's on a par overall. It's got a bit more sheet metal to drag around but it's well able to move, turn and stop. I've had reliability issues with mine but in saying that I genuinely think the only car I would have before it now would be a RS Megane.

The only issue I have with Octavias is people buying the 1.4 (NA). A shitty engine on a good car. My brother rolled up in one a few months ago and I swore I could hear baby Jesus wailing away.

Other than that, you've given your reasons and they make sense. I'm a bit unbalanced ever since I got to ride shotgun in the M3 on Saturday

EPM

RoverJames wrote: »

I'm on about the whitish grey bits (whatever the feck they are), contrasting with the dark grey of the dash, I think it looks awful.

Re the keyboard warriers/hardmen I didn't know who you were on about as I presumed it wasn't Confab as he posted nothing to warrant that tag.

Well the orgasming was a bit OTT IMO but its been discussed and dealt with.

Gary ITR

RoverJames wrote: »

I'm on about the whitish grey bits (whatever the feck they are), contrasting with the dark grey of the dash, I think it looks awful.

Re the keyboard warriers/hardmen I didn't know who you were on about as I presumed it wasn't Confab as he posted nothing to warrant that tag.

EPM gets very contrary this time of year, must be the change in the weather

Squall19

EPM wrote: »

B Mine was nearly 180bhp and I defy anyone to find a car with that power, with the spec, the all round ability for that price. The badge snobs will no doubt produce something much older.

It's not the best car in the world but it's a match for most of the cars that are raved about here.

They are a great car, would love an estate one.

I wouldn't say they are unique anymore though, in 2006 they were unique.Great performance, economy, handling, good looks, but now the competition has caught up and a 170bhp 1500kg diesel is nothing special.

They will have to do a serious upgrade for the next one to stay ahead/keep up.A 220bhp scroll turbo is a must imo, otherwise its stagnating.

Japs are really starting to get into performance diesels now, I can see them being very strong in 2013/14.With very strong diesel Accords, Mazda 6's, Lancer's, Legacy's etc.

Marlow

Squall19 wrote: »

Legacy's etc.

Subary already has quite strong diesels. Their 2l diesel boxer puts out 150 bhp and 350 Nm factory and can be remapped to around 185 bhp / 420 Nm easy.

There's plenty of other cars in the market with similar power compared to the vRS diesels.

At the end of the day, everybody has a different taste in cars and that's what defines your car preference at the end of the day.

/M

Squall19

Marlow wrote: »

Subary already has quite strong diesels. Their 2l diesel boxer puts out 150 bhp and 350 Nm factory and can be remapped to around 185 bhp / 420 Nm easy.

There's plenty of other cars in the market with similar power compared to the vRS diesels.

At the end of the day, everybody has a different taste in cars and that's what defines your car preference at the end of the day.

/M

150bhp in a car that tips the scales at nearly 1600kg, is like 95bhp in a Fiesta.It's just about adequate.

Marlow

Squall19 wrote: »

150bhp in a car that tips the scales at nearly 1600kg, is like 95bhp in a Fiesta.It's just about adequate.

It's not the bhp that is interesting really in a diesel. It's the torque figure.

And if you start comparing mid-sized diesels with compact petrol cars you're completely off the scale.

You need to compare like-wise. So a car the same weight/engine-size/fuel as the Octavia vRS in this case with that.

If you want to compare a diesel to a petrol, you'll have to either compare torque figures or add approx 15-20% to the diesels bhp to be able to compare to a petrol. And then there's a lot of other variables, that have to be added for pro/cons in regards to petrol/diesel.

And trust me, I know what I'm talking about. I've got both a 212 bhp diesel and 400 bhp petrol of similar weight and same manufacturer here at home.

/M

challengemaster

Squall19 wrote: »

150bhp in a car that tips the scales at nearly 1600kg, is like 95bhp in a Fiesta.It's just about adequate.

/facepalm

Apart from the 150bhp diesel will have probably 4 times the torque as a fiesta.

Squall19

challengemaster wrote: »

/facepalm

Apart from the 150bhp diesel will have probably 4 times the torque as a fiesta.

I was just saying the Legacy diesel ain't strong compared to the competition.

150 brake is nothing in such a big machine, doesn't matter how much torque it has.Octavia Vrs is the starting point at 170bhp and nearly 1500kg for performance diesel saloons.Legacy is a nice bit down.

Torque is nice and all, but it don't mean ****.

It just means you don't have to change gear, I love torque as much as the next guy but that's the truth.

Its been proven a million times that it has nothing to do with speed, an F1 car for example has no torque, it has 250nm ( same as a 1.3 cdti Corsa ) and its out of this world fast.

Its all about bhp, weight and gearing.

Torque is like electric windows, handy to have it, but no big deal if you dont.

My old diesel 170bhp Fabia had 400nm, but an old yoke like a Toyota Levin with the same bhp and only 180nm would clean it.

challengemaster

The very fact that you have no clue bhp is derived from torque @ certain rpm is laughable, and means your "argument" is pointless. The RPM is the essential part.

F1 cars may have 250nm, but if they have it through the entire rev band up to 18k rpm, as opposed to a corsa peaking at say, 4000rpm (guessing) and then dropping off again, is why it(f1 car) can accelerate so fast and has so much power.

But just so I make this clear, lets revert to figures.

Here's the formula
BHP = torque * RPM / 5252

First, the torque needs to be in lb ft.

250nm = 184.4 lb ft

First, the corsa - again, lets say it peaks at 4000RPM. (and I don't know which one you've found that has 250nm, 190 seems standard)

184.4*4000 = 737,599.997 / 5252 = 140bhp

Next, the F1 car - Lets assume it doesn't have max torque up to 18k rpm, only til 15k rpm, so it's peak HP is at that torque

184.4*15000 = 2,766,000 / 5252 = 526.66 bhp

I suggest next time, do some reading before spouting stuff you know nothing about

Matt Simis

Squall19 wrote: »

Its been proven a million times that it has nothing to do with speed, an F1 car for example has no torque, it has 250nm ( same as a 1.3 cdti Corsa ) and its out of this world fast.

Its all about bhp, weight and gearing.

While I vaguely agree with your the Suburu diesels are not merely decent examples of diesel performance (and generally have a cool reception in the auto world) you are way off base with the torque thing. Look up "axle torque" which will give you the true on the road of various cars. Basically a formula that takes into account RPM, Engine Torque, Final Drive and Gearing.

You will find most likely that F1 cars put down astronomical torque to the tarmac.

vectra

RoverJames wrote: »

I think the white bits are awful with the grey

@ RoverJames.
Have you ever seen the seats in them?
It is very hard to imagine them from a bad pic.
It is actually light grey against dark grey
Looks quite smart if that is what you are in to.
I am not so went for full black leather.

I wouldn't run the standard seats down though.

Yep, I can appreciate why you went with the all black seats, I honesty think the two tone white, grey whatever looks awful.

Marlow

Squall19 wrote: »

Torque is nice and all, but it don't mean ****.

It just means you don't have to change gear, I love torque as much as the next guy but that's the truth.

Clearly, you don't know, what you're talking about. If a Levin could clean your Fabia and your Fabia had those figures, then you clearly didn't use it's power at the right times. It's all down to how well you know your car and where it's power actually is available.

Torque means how fast you accelerate. bhp has nothing to do with it. bhp is an overall power figure, but mostly gives you an idea to top speed.

How often you have to change gear is defined by where in your rpm band you have your torque, how long it lasts and how wide your rpm band is.

Your top speed then is limited by your gear ratio/diff ratio and rpm band.

As for gear changes, that's actually something that rules EVERY diesel out, no matter how powerful they are.

Take for example the E39 BMW's: the 525tds has a rev-limit at 5000 rpm, 525d at 4500 rpm, 530d at 5000 rpm.

Compared to lets say the E39 M5. That has a rev-limit at 7200 rpm.

Because the E39 diesels are turbo-charged, they have their max torque at boost at about 2000 rpm and up to around 4000 rpm where they loose power, This is for the 525d, while the M5 has it's max powerband out of a naturally aspirated large engine and has torque basically constantly from around 1000-1500 rpm and up to the limit at 7200 rpm.

My 525d puts out remapped 212 bhp and 495 Nm torque, the M5 is 400 bhp and 500 Nm torque.

That means, on a track like Mondello, an E39 diesel is very little fun, as you constantly have to change gears, while in normal traffic these cars are a lot quicker than most. In a situation like overtaking and driving from a side road or traffic light, my 525d is nearly as quick as the M5.

The only exception here to the diesel issue is the 535d as it has a twin-turbo, that fills the "torque-holes" and actually has a revband-limit around 5500 rpm. There is one at trackdays in Mondello often enough and he keeps up with us M5's no problem.

So sure, if you try to outrun a Levin by sticking around in low rpm (under 2000'ish) in your Fabia and don't change gear quickly enough so that you don't hit the turbo-hole in the top of the rpm band, then you get left behind. Before the turbo kicks in you'd have virtually no power. If you know where to change up to maximize your torque advantage, you'll be in front all the time.

Most of the japanese cars are also quicker of the mark from a standing start due to their gearing. This has nothing to do with their engine power. Something that you can see at drag racing events, where even cars like the M5 never will be in the leader board, unless they are heavily modified, disregardless of their engine power.

Most japanese cars are geared towards a lot of power from down below, as they anyhow have a 180 km/h limit in Japan, while a lot of the performance european cars are geared towards top speed and loose out in the bottom end.

I've actually had a chance to drive a Forrester Diesel Boxer and it's by no means slow.

Comparing a Legacy diesel boxer to a Fiesta petrol is like comparing apples and oranges.

/M

Squall19

Your 525D is nearly as fast as your M5:D

I think your the one that doesn't know how to drive:p

Lets compare.

Overtaking a diesels fortay.

530d here as no figures for a mapped 525d

An M5 will do 80-120kmh in 3 secs, a 530d with 218bhp will do it in 5.7 secs

An M5 will do 80-180kmh in 9.5 secs, a 530d with 218bhp will do it in 19.6 sec

Thats car lengths ahead in just a few seconds,

Comparing the rest of the figures are just pointless because its way way faster, only in gear are they close, maybe that's where you are going wrong?:cool:

That Toyota Levin was equal to a stock DC2 Integra, they were neck at all speeds, so could I keep in my torquey Fabia lets see.

Know figures for a mapped Fabia.

So Scirocco 170bhp 2.0 tdi with huge torque will have to do.

0-180kmh Scirocco takes 29 secs, 0-180kmh Integra takes 21 secs.Scirocco has twice the torque and only a few horses down like my Fabia was.

It's not even close, why because like the Levin the Integra is light, a good 150kg lighter because all diesels are heavy.

Lets compare like for like.

A BMW 530d (E60) vs BMW 530i (E60), know bull**** videos and personal experience, just figures.Now you would thinkthe diesel with 200nm's more torque and few extra horses would wipe the floor with the petrol.

As you can see the Torque counts for ****, its slower everywhere.



But, but, but it has 500nm's.:rolleyes:

Quazzie

Squall19 wrote: »

know bull**** videos and personal experience, just figures.

This is where your argument fell down.

Squall19

Squall19 wrote: »

.............

That Toyota Levin was equal to a stock DC2 Integra, they were neck at all speeds, so could I keep in my torquey Fabia lets see.
..............

It must have been some Levin, as standard they are just a tiny tiny tiny tad faster than a 3SGE Celica, which aren't fast cars really and wouldn't stay anywhere near a B18C powered DC2.

If you're on about a tweaked Levin you should really have stated that up front

Squall19

Quazzie wrote: »

This is where your argument fell down.

That's to stop stories about my mate John had a 330d that would eat M3's, RS4's, Evo's etc.

Youtube is full of such videos.

Another comparison here.

Honda Accord 2.0l 137bhp 16v Petrol vs Honda Accord 2.2 140bhp CDTI

Again diesel has twice the torque and few more horses.

It still gets beat.

Torque means nothing once again, weight is the difference and other things

Squall19

Marlow wrote: »

Comparing a Legacy diesel boxer to a Fiesta petrol is like comparing apples and oranges.

/M

Is it?

Its very close as you can see, barely anything seperates the two.

This will be my last example as I think I made my point about Torque.

Squall19

^^^^^^^^^^^^^

challengemaster wrote: »

I suggest next time, do some reading before spouting stuff you know nothing about

In fairness Squall does make some decent ish points, however no one can deny that acceleration is caused by torque The ole graphs Squall have lashed up are about as useful as gorgeous t1ties on George Hamilton though as the lashings of torque shown are not the torque figures at the wheels, they are the engine torque, which diesels have loads and loads of.

As various folks have mentioned in here the gearing plays a huge part, diesels generally have long gearing, the jap quick off the mark petrol yokes have short gearing so the torque at the wheels for them is decent, obviously they have decent torque at the wheels at low speeds as you can spin wheels no bother from standstill.

The gearing and the torque at the wheels at a given speed determines acceleration, the torque of the engine obviously plays a huge factor, in top gear in a diesel at low ish revs 'twill pull away nicely without the need to drop a gear as the ooooodles of engine torque compensates for the long gear and away she goes.

I dunno could graphs be gotten of available torque at the wheels going through the gears in a diesel like a 535d to show where the sweetspot is in each gear, would be interesting to have a look at that against a similar plot for an M5 or something. 'twould explain rather well how the 535d marlow mentioned is a match for the M5s on the track.


^^^^^^^^^^^^ don't be picking holes in that shtuff now gents, 'tis a public holiday :pac:

challengemaster

Squall - You've just ignored exactly what i've told you and explained clearly with figures.

the RPM is key, and I thought I explained that well.

Take a look at all those figure sheets you just posted, and compare exactly what RPM max power and torque appear at.

Squall19

Squall19 wrote: »

............. it has 250nm ( same as a 1.3 cdti Corsa ) and its out of this world fast..................

challengemaster wrote: »

...............
First, the torque needs to be in lb ft.

250nm = 184.4 lb ft

First, the corsa - again, lets say it peaks at 4000RPM. (and I don't know which one you've found that has 250nm, 190 seems standard)

184.4*4000 = 737,599.997 / 5252 = 140bhp.................

Are the 1.3CDti Corsa 140bhp?

TestTransmission

New thread created as the dyno day one had gone way off topic

challengemaster

Dont think so, but he threw a torque figure out for them (which i think is wrong) so I just used an arbitrary RPM for peak torque to show how it works. I had a quick google to try find out but unusually, torque figures were quoted without the RPM

The variables are torque and RPM, so considering both of them are probably wrong, the end result would be wrong. It was just to show Squall the formula for deriving BHP from torque, and that torque isn't just like electric windows. If you can find proper values for the torque @ RPM for it, plug it in and you'll get the right answer

Ardennes1944

cant we all just agree that every car, german...jap....whatever, aspires to be an Astra?

challengemaster

challengemaster wrote: »

Dont think so, but he threw a torque figure out for them (which i think is wrong) so I just used an arbitrary RPM for peak torque to show how it works. I had a quick google to try find out but unusually, torque figures were quoted without the RPM

The variables are torque and RPM, so considering both of them are probably wrong, the end result would be wrong. It was just to show Squall the formula for deriving BHP from torque, and that torque isn't just like electric windows. If you can find proper values for the torque @ RPM for it, plug it in and you'll get the right answer

I know the formula is right, was just wondering about the super corsa :pac: