Bodkin / Headford Road roundabout replacement [Lights are on!]

topcat77

Find that the sequencing on the roundabout needs to be changed. As a cyclist it very hard to use the hook turns (http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/Travel-and-transport/Cycling/Bike-user-guide/Hook-turn-storage-boxes.aspx) as the sequence goes anti clockwise this means you have to wait for a full sequence to run before you can make the right turn. if it was running clockwise you'd only wait for one light change.

That's why i've seen and probably everyone else has seen some crazy cycling on that set of lights and funnily enough no one using the hook turn boxes.

GekkePrutser

Arielle Mango Rip-off wrote: »

Apart from a few people who post on this forum, who have massive anti-car agenda, I would say that vast majority of people in Galway would prefer to have kept the roundabouts.

I constantly hear people complain about the lights.

I'm a motorist and I'm very happy with the lights, they've improved travel time and safety for me. Of course you're going to hear the people complaining more than the happy ones.

I don't like roundabouts because they require having visibility in too many directions simultaneously, and the ethics around Galway are poor: The speeds were way too high, and people were often pulling out in front of oncoming cars on the roundabouts. As well as bad indicating practice: Indicating too early or not at all.

Now with the lights the situation is clear for everyone. I just hope they will do the remaining roundabout at Menlo too.

joeKel73

topcat77 wrote: »

Find that the sequencing on the roundabout needs to be changed. As a cyclist it very hard to use the hook turns (http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/Travel-and-transport/Cycling/Bike-user-guide/Hook-turn-storage-boxes.aspx) as the sequence goes anti clockwise this means you have to wait for a full sequence to run before you can make the right turn. if it was running clockwise you'd only wait for one light change.

I brought this up here before - it was pointed out that with the sequence going anti-clockwise the left-turn for the next road on the sequence can go green early, so green for 2 stages of the sequence.

But just thinking about it again now, going clockwise would just mean the left-turn could remain green for a further stage AFTER that road's main green stage. So still for 2 stages of the sequence.

Or am I missing something?

Iwannahurl

topcat77 wrote: »

Find that the sequencing on the roundabout needs to be changed. As a cyclist it very hard to use the hook turns (http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/Travel-and-transport/Cycling/Bike-user-guide/Hook-turn-storage-boxes.aspx) as the sequence goes anti clockwise this means you have to wait for a full sequence to run before you can make the right turn. if it was running clockwise you'd only wait for one light change.

That's why i've seen and probably everyone else has seen some crazy cycling on that set of lights and funnily enough no one using the hook turn boxes.

Perhaps I'm unobservant, or just ignorant of the technicalities of traffic signals, but I had no idea that the sequence was anti-clockwise.

What is the rationale for this? If the traffic signals are "smart", which was the original intention*, then why would the lights follow a rigid pre-determined cycle?

Surely the set-up should detect waiting cyclists and pedestrians, and alter the sequence accordingly?

*The signals can also be controlled via the AUTC. So are the traffic controllers just sitting at their screens watching cyclists sitting at junctions as the signals dumbly go through their pre-determined cycle? I don't get it. Can someone please enlighten me?

joeKel73

I've emailed the roads department in the city council to see if there's any reason not to change it to clockwise....

Iwannahurl

Why should it be clockwise OR anti-clockwise?

To me that suggests a rigid unchanging pattern, whereas the A in UTC is Adaptive.

galwaycyclist

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Why should it be clockwise OR anti-clockwise?

To me that suggests a rigid unchanging pattern, whereas the A in UTC is Adaptive.

Ok what changes is the length of time each arm gets green for (or red). The sequence in which they change is usually fixed.

So if the detectors on a particular arm show long queues of cars for some reason then that arm may get a longer green than usual for a while.

Or alternatively if the traffic waiting at that arm consists exclusively of persons on bikes then the lights will stay red until a car comes along to trigger the detector loops.

In which case the signal sequence might be skipping that arm by design but the overall sequence will be the same.

snubbleste

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Or alternatively if the traffic waiting at that arm consists exclusively of persons on bikes then the lights will stay red until a car comes along to trigger the detector loops.

That irritates me no end. You are at the junction waiting but not recognised.

joeKel73

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Why should it be clockwise OR anti-clockwise?

To me that suggests a rigid unchanging pattern, whereas the A in UTC is Adaptive.

Well it's a busy junction and there's generally traffic waiting at all roads at all times so I think it makes sense to keep the rotation.

A control center could still trim or extend the timings for each of the roads depending on the traffic.

kippy

J o e wrote: »

Well it's a busy junction and there's generally traffic waiting at all roads at all times so I think it makes sense to keep the rotation.

A control center could still trim or extend the timings for each of the roads depending on the traffic.

I think there is a control centre in City Hall that is supposed to do this. Not sure what times it is manned at however.

WallyGUFC

I was fairly skeptical about the lights at first but they've worked well imo. Roundabouts would be okay if people in Galway knew how to drive properly but road etiquette is terrible, indicating non-existent and lane discipline sorely lacking. The whole thing will be smoother when/if the Menlo Park roundabout is done.

Even with the junctions, some people just haven't a clue. You'd wonder how some people get their licences at all. People running reds, not obeying lane markings, changing lanes at the very last second etc. The filter lane from the bridge onto Bother na dTreabh works well imo, but so often I've seen people carry on to the junction and perform an illegal left turn. Some people just have no spatial awareness or regard for other road users. Should have to re-do the test every 10 years imo.

spiritcrusher

People not obeying lane markings is the one that really gets me. The arrows are right there, right below you, big white things in the middle of the road, pointing exactly where the lane you are in is bringing you. But still people line up in the middle lane coming from the Headford side and try to go straight on. How utterly dense do you have to be to not understand that an arrow pointing right means this lane turns right...

El_Dangeroso

spiritcrusher wrote: »

People not obeying lane markings is the one that really gets me. The arrows are right there, right below you, big white things in the middle of the road, pointing exactly where the lane you are in is bringing you. But still people line up in the middle lane coming from the Headford side and try to go straight on. How utterly dense do you have to be to not understand that an arrow pointing right means this lane turns right...

To be fair, and I totally agree with the main thrust of your post, those markings are often covered by traffic. A few big signs wouldn't go astray on that junction.

snubbleste

A new pole has been plonked into the footpath on Sean Mulvoy approaching Bodkin, I think in the last day. It states there exists a shopping centre ahead.
Not sure if it is an official sign. There were already two signs up in the grass verge beyond the fence. The new pole ruins a perfectly good footpath.

Iwannahurl

WallyGUFC wrote: »

I was fairly skeptical about the lights at first but they've worked well imo. Roundabouts would be okay if people in Galway knew how to drive properly but road etiquette is terrible, indicating non-existent and lane discipline sorely lacking. The whole thing will be smoother when/if the Menlo Park roundabout is done.

Even with the junctions, some people just haven't a clue. You'd wonder how some people get their licences at all. People running reds, not obeying lane markings, changing lanes at the very last second etc. The filter lane from the bridge onto Bother na dTreabh works well imo, but so often I've seen people carry on to the junction and perform an illegal left turn.

My own opinion of my own driving is that I know how to do it properly, eg signalling, staying in lane etc. However, my experience of roundabouts as a motorist, cyclist and pedestrian is that Irish roundabouts are not OK for cyclists and pedestrians even if motorists are using them properly.

For example, on some multi-lane roundabouts featuring vegetation on the central island, it is difficult for a cyclist to enter and take the second or third exit, or for a pedestrian to cross a particular arm, because it's impossible to anticipate when a car might come around from the far side. How is a child, senior citizen or disabled person meant to decide when to cross, or enter the roundabout on a bike, when a car might come towards them at any second, cutting across their path? That is emphatically not OK, in my book, yet the approaching driver may well be fully compliant with roundabout rules and etiquette.

The new filter lane at the 'Bodkin' junction is an unnecessary imposition on pedestrians and cyclists. From the Design Manual for Urban Roads & Streets:

Left turn slips ... generally provide little extra effective vehicular capacity but are highly disruptive for pedestrians and cyclists.

Left turning slips generally offer little benefit in terms of junction capacity and increase the number of crossings pedestrians must navigate. They also allow vehicles to take corners at higher speeds, exposing pedestrians and cyclists to greater danger.

fago

I hate the left slip lane coming out of town at the clinic roundabout in Roscam.

Cars coming into town turning right up to dougiska queue up, crossing the hatched marking area. This means the lane coming out of the city is not wide enough for both a cyclist and car.

Add to the mix the cars trying to cut across to the slip lane.

Its more dangerous than the roundabout itself!

galwaycyclist

fago wrote: »

I hate the left slip lane coming out of town at the clinic roundabout in Roscam.

Cars coming into town turning right up to dougiska queue up, crossing the hatched marking area. This means the lane coming out of the city is not wide enough for both a cyclist and car.

Add to the mix the cars trying to cut across to the slip lane.

Its more dangerous than the roundabout itself!

Absolutely. Slip roads are more dangerous for cyclists especially dual carriageway slip roads. The reason Irish roundabouts were so dangerous for cyclists was because, in Ireland, they are designed like mini-slip roads.

When a roads engineer then marks a cycle lane accross the mouth of the slip-road and try to push cyclists in where they can't be seen by entering drivers it gets even more worrying.

Iwannahurl

galwaycyclist wrote: »

The reason Irish roundabouts were are so dangerous for cyclists was is because, in Ireland, they are designed like mini-slip roads.

I hadn't thought of that before, but I see what you mean.

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Ok what changes is the length of time each arm gets green for (or red). The sequence in which they change is usually fixed.

So if the detectors on a particular arm show long queues of cars for some reason then that arm may get a longer green than usual for a while.

Or alternatively if the traffic waiting at that arm consists exclusively of persons on bikes then the lights will stay red until a car comes along to trigger the detector loops.

In which case the signal sequence might be skipping that arm by design but the overall sequence will be the same.

Might it also be the case that if, say, there are five cars plus ten bikes at Arm 1, and fifteen cars plus zero bikes at Arm 2, then Arm 2 will get more green time?

snubbleste

This is opening tomorrow. Let's see the madness

joeKel73

I must say the work on the new junction was very managed, with most work happening at night and minimum disruption during the day. Fair play.

Micilin Muc

It looks like the inbound cycle lane will still be inaccessible to all bikes except those coming from Sandy Road. All it takes is a dished kerb, but Galway City Council don't know what they are, or where to put them.

ballinadog

snubbleste wrote: »

This is opening tomorrow. Let's see the madness

Personally think it'll have little impact. People coming out from town won't be affected anymore than they already bar if a pedestrian is crossing. People travelling inbound will only be held if there are cars waiting in the slip lane to enter dunnes and even then their green time will be minimal.

antoobrien

ballinadog wrote: »

Personally think it'll have little impact. People coming out from town won't be affected anymore than they already bar if a pedestrian is crossing. People travelling inbound will only be held if there are cars waiting in the slip lane to enter dunnes and even then their green time will be minimal.

It's going to make it harder for traffic to travel in/outbound on the N6, which is already messed up if there is any half serious volume.

You'd nearly swear they were attempting to throttle traffic going to the RAB, which is still operating better than the set of lights (in that it takes less time to get through the RAB than it does to get through the lights going the other way).

what_traffic

ballinadog wrote: »

Personally think it'll have little impact. People coming out from town won't be affected anymore than they already bar if a pedestrian is crossing. People travelling inbound will only be held if there are cars waiting in the slip lane to enter dunnes and even then their green time will be minimal.

I agree. Do you know why this section was only done now and not when the Dun na Coirbe light's junction was put in place?

Storm 10

There is no joined up thinking with these lights, as it is you get a green to go left from the bridge then 100 yards up the road you hit a red at the entrance to Dun Na Coirbe, this causes major back ups off the bridge at peak times so God only knows what its going to be like when the pedestrian lights are on.

joeKel73

Storm 10 wrote: »

There is no joined up thinking with these lights

I hit the perfect storm of lights coming from the Pillo towards town this evening. The new lights were red, waited there while the next set were green. As the new lights went green the next junction went red. Had to sit here while the main junction went through green (there were no cars for most of this sequence as we were held back at the lights).

goalscoringhero

J o e wrote: »

I hit the perfect storm of lights coming from the Pillo towards town this evening. The new lights were red, waited there while the next set were green. As the new lights went green the next junction went red. Had to sit here while the main junction went through green (there were no cars for most of this sequence as we were held back at the lights).

While the signalling sequence may not make a lot of sense to you personally, I'm sure you appreciate the opportunity it gives for other road users (and in particular children, the disabled, the elderly) to cross 4 lanes of road safely - even though in your case there may not have been anyone there to cross at that particular time.

It probably cost you an extra 3 minutes - time to face up to reality and acknowledge that this is a fair price to pay to accommodate road users other than yourself.

joeKel73

I disagree, I'm not looking for a system to suit my personal needs... I'm looking for a system that works most efficiently for everyone.

The main Bodkin junction goes green for the main traffic from each road in an anti-clockwise rotation. When it's coming up to the green light for traffic coming from the Pillo going towards town I think the lights at the new Dunnes entrance and the Dunnes/Dun junction should be green to allow as much traffic flow through and across the junction as possible.

Once that main junction goes red, there's nobody progressing through until the next rotation so that's the time to open up access to the side roads and the pedestrian crossings.

goalscoringhero

J o e wrote: »

I disagree, I'm not looking for a system to suit my personal needs... I'm looking for a system that works most efficiently for everyone.

The main Bodkin junction goes green for the main traffic from each road in an anti-clockwise rotation. When it's coming up to the green light for traffic coming from the Pillo going towards town I think the lights at the new Dunnes entrance and the Dunnes/Dun junction should be green to allow as much traffic flow through and across the junction as possible.

Once that main junction goes red, there's nobody progressing through until the next rotation so that's the time to open up access to the side roads and the pedestrian crossings.

I probably worded my post too strong - however you'll hardly ever get a system that works most efficiently for everyone (I'm not saying we should stop trying though).

Not sure what the anti-clockwise information has got to do with it, in that case it would be much easier to align the sequencing of the lights between Pillo and main junction rather than touching the main junction itself.

joeKel73

goalscoringhero wrote: »

I probably worded my post too strong - however you'll hardly ever get a system that works most efficiently for everyone (I'm not saying we should stop trying though).

I think it is possible to find a system that works most efficiently for everyone. That doesn't mean a system that works best for each individual user of the system, but for everyone as a whole.

goalscoringhero wrote: »

Not sure what the anti-clockwise information has got to do with it, in that case it would be much easier to align the sequencing of the lights between Pillo and main junction rather than touching the main junction itself.

I mentioned the anti-clockwise rotation as it's a definite repeating pattern. We know once the main road goes red, it will not be green again until all the other 3 roads have had their turn in rotation - hence why that's a perfect time to open up side roads and pedestrian crossings.