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The 9-11 Dancing Middle Easterners and their vans

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  • 28-10-2011 7:51pm
    #1
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭


    In the months prior to 9-11 an Israeli "art student" "possible" spy ring was busted by the DEA according to a DEA report leaked by Cryptome.org. The report shows many overlaps of the art students with the later 9-11 hijackers.

    On 9-11 a number of people were arrested in the New York/New Jersey area for terrorism related offenses, all were later released and all were riding in white vans.

    The best known are the "dancing Israelis" 5 men illegally in America working for what the FBI considered a possible front - Urban Moving Systems, whose owner, Dominik Suter fled the to Israel almost immediately after being questioned. Dominik Suter would later turn up on a leaked FBI terrorist list. The five were arrested after a complaint was made to police that they were seen recording and celebrating the attacks. One witness, who spoke with the FBI seen them in the Carpark at 8am, before the first plane hit.

    According to local NJ newspaper The Bergen Record on Sept 12 and the FBI report bomb-sniffing dogs reacted to their van.
    However, sources close to the investigation said they found other evidence linking the men to the bombing plot.


    "There are maps of the city in the car with certain places highlighted," the source said. "It looked like they're hooked in with this. It looked like they knew what was going to happen when they were at Liberty State Park."
    Sources also said that bomb-sniffing dogs reacted as if they had detected explosives, although officers were unable to find anything. The FBI seized the van for further testing, authorities said.

    There is evidence of apaprent explosions in the twin towers on 9-11.


    And so the other vans...

    Here Dan Rather reports on two men arrested on 9-11 by the FBI with a "truck full of explosives"


    And here is the rather strange case of the mural van which apparently was driving around New York on 9-11 and according to Police Radio transmission from 9-11 it's two passengers fled the car and were subsequently arrested and their van exploded.
    officer: [inaudible] I got a message on that uh plane,
    its a big truck with a mural painted of a of a airplane diving into New York City
    and exploding [inaudible] know whats in the truck, the truck is in between 6th and 7th on King Street
    officer: [inaudible] 10-5 10-5
    officer: with a mural painted uh airplane diving into New York blowing up. Two men got outta the truck
    ran away from it, we got those two [inaudible] under.
    officer: kay great.
    officer: we got both suspects under kay, we have the suspects who drivedrove in the van and that exploded
    we have both of them under kay lets get some help over here
    officer: now Im sending you [inaudible] I just want to make sure you and your guys all right over there kay, thats all.
    officer: whats the location [inaudible]
    officer: put em up, put em up
    officer: you know we have both the [inaudible] driven that exploded. Is that correct?
    officer: what location?
    officer: location [inaudible]
    officer: [inaudible] location [inaudible]
    officer: King Street between 6th and 7th
    officer: King Street and 6th and 7th avenue, King Street and 6th and 7th avenue
    officer: [inaudible] on the scene King 6 and 7, which unit are you kay?


    I want to make it abundantly clear that this has absolutely nothing to do with religion/race from the outset and any posts which try to go down that route will be ignored and reported for taking the thread off-topic.

    Also, I don't know what happened that day and don't have any answers and am not expecting any as it's an unsolved mystery, but one that's worth exploring IMO.

    A final point is that I am not interested in the "uhm..well, dey let em go" argument as it means nothing as the tail has been known to dog on occasions such as these.

    Otherwise, let's hope we can keep it clean and have a productive discussion.


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 25,232 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    There's few unanswered, and probably unanswerable questions for the conspiracy narrative.
    First and foremost what specific evidence is there to show that these knew that the attacks were going to happen before they did?

    Also your post contains some mistruths such as you say that the FBI said that their company was a possible front, this isn't the case.
    And you also say that the dogs reacted to explosives, but this is decidedly different to explosive residues being found.

    Course this also leads to the question about why they'd have explosives in the first place...
    But one thing at a time I think.


  • Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    King Mob wrote: »
    There's few unanswered, and probably unanswerable questions for the conspiracy narrative.
    First and foremost what specific evidence is there to show that these knew that the attacks were going to happen before they did?
    We've already been over this. I would emphasise that this is what I consider evidence for what they may have known.

    A - Their sighting by a witness, according to the FBI report of them in the carpark at 8am; before any attacks had occured.

    B- Their unusual behaviour in "celebrating" the attacks. Their no evidence of anyone else in New York/ New Jersey celebrating the attacks.

    C- Their explanations given for "celebrating" the attacks when under investigation by the FBI Counter-Terrorism unit.

    They claimed to be celebrating because a terrorist attacks by Islamic terrorists on the US would "be good for Israel".

    They were celebrating at the latest after the first tower was hit and before the second one was, when nobody else had known it was a terrorist attack.

    How did they a) know it was a terrorist attack before the US government and b) know it was Islamic terrorists?

    D - They travelled with their recording equipment from their initial vantage point where they had perfectly visibility on the first tower which had been hit but couldn't see the second tower to a vantage point where they could see both towers. This is before the second tower was hit. Did they move to get a good view of the second tower before it had been hit for no apparent reason?

    King Mob wrote: »
    Also your post contains some mistruths such as you say that the FBI said that their company was a possible front, this isn't the case.
    Yes it is and again has already been addressed here.
    During the search conducted by the W.P.D, it was revealed that the building and all of its contents had been abandoned by (BLANKED AREA) the owner of UMS. This apparently is being done to avoid criminal prosecution after the 9.11.01 arrest of 5 of his employees and subsequent seizure of his office computer systems by members of the FBI NK on or around 9.13.01.
    A search of UMS, Weehawken, New Jersey revealed more oddities which caused the search team leader to characterize the company as a possible "Fraudulent Operation." There was little evidence of a legitimate business operation that was found. Evidence recovery agents did seize however, 16 seperate computer units used by UMS

    Do you think Mossad agents somehow end up working as furniture movers?
    Oddly equipment typically used in a moving company's daily duties was not found including work gloves, blanket, straps, ropes, boxes, dollies, rollers etc,.
    King Mob wrote: »
    And you also say that the dogs reacted to explosives, but this is decidedly different to explosive residues being found.
    Which is exactly the reason I said what I said. Sniffer dog evidence is admissable in court. It is not an absolute guarantee but is a good indicator. We don't know the result of the tests on the van so it must remain considered that it is quite possible that the van had been carrying explosive materials.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,005 ✭✭✭Di0genes



    Which is exactly the reason I said what I said. Sniffer dog evidence is admissable in court

    No it is not.

    http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/journals/PLPR/2001/63.html

    http://news.outlookindia.com/items.aspx?artid=628379

    http://dahnbatchelorsopinions.blogspot.com/2008/05/is-evidence-obtained-by-sniffer-dogs.html

    Thats just the start of the litany of nonsense in your post.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,232 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    We've already been over this. I would emphasise that this is what I consider evidence for what they may have known.
    Well yes you have claimed many of these things before yet you didn't back any of them up.
    A - Their sighting by a witness, according to the FBI report of them in the carpark at 8am; before any attacks had occured.
    And? Being in a car park isn't an indication of a crime, nor unusual for people working for a moving company.
    And of course this would be in the same carpark were they had to move from to get a better view right?
    B- Their unusual behaviour in "celebrating" the attacks. Their no evidence of anyone else in New York/ New Jersey celebrating the attacks.
    Again, and? I'm sure there was plenty of folk who acted like assholes and made inappropriate jokes and such. These guys were just caught.

    And I see this as being evidence against them being Mossad agents. Or at the very least against them being competent and understanding basic intelligence skills.
    C- Their explanations given for "celebrating" the attacks when under investigation by the FBI Counter-Terrorism unit.

    They claimed to be celebrating because a terrorist attacks by Islamic terrorists on the US would "be good for Israel".

    They were celebrating at the latest after the first tower was hit and before the second one was, when nobody else had known it was a terrorist attack.

    How did they a) know it was a terrorist attack before the US government and b) know it was Islamic terrorists?
    Well first, please actually point out were they actually said this to the FBI.
    D - They travelled with their recording equipment from their initial vantage point where they had perfectly visibility on the first tower which had been hit but couldn't see the second tower to a vantage point where they could see both towers. This is before the second tower was hit. Did they move to get a good view of the second tower before it had been hit for no apparent reason?
    But that vantage point also was further north wasn't it?
    Isn't it true that they wouldn't have seen the impact point of the first plane from their initial vantage point which was to the south of the WTC?

    And also, if being in the right place at the right time to actually see the plane hit the second tower (but also being on the wrong side to see the approach and impact) is an indication of them being in on it, them the thousand of people who were able to see the crash, and even record the impact all must have know about it. Right?
    And what about WTC7? How did people know it was going to collapse 5 hours later? How were they able to be in positions to record it's collapse if the didn't know it was going to fall unless they were in on the conspiracy?
    Yes it is and again has already been addressed here.
    During the search conducted by the W.P.D, it was revealed that the building and all of its contents had been abandoned by (BLANKED AREA) the owner of UMS. This apparently is being done to avoid criminal prosecution after the 9.11.01 arrest of 5 of his employees and subsequent seizure of his office computer systems by members of the FBI NK on or around 9.13.01.
    Quote:
    A search of UMS, Weehawken, New Jersey revealed more oddities which caused the search team leader to characterize the company as a possible "Fraudulent Operation." There was little evidence of a legitimate business operation that was found. Evidence recovery agents did seize however, 16 seperate computer units used by UMS
    The report says it was a team leader on the ground that concluded that it was a possible fraudulent operation. This was not the conclusion of the FBI despite your claim.

    And despite all of this they still had a work roster which the boss was able to produce.
    So are you going to claim that they had the for thought to prepare the paper work in case they were investigated, but for some reason didn't buy stuff like work gloves, blanket, straps, ropes, boxes, dollies, rollers etc,?
    Do you think Mossad agents somehow end up working as furniture movers?
    Well you've yet to actually prove that they are Mossad agents.
    Which is exactly the reason I said what I said. Sniffer dog evidence is admissable in court. It is not an absolute guarantee but is a good indicator. We don't know the result of the tests on the van so it must remain considered that it is quite possible that the van had been carrying explosive materials.
    But that's not the same thing as explosives or explosive residue being found.
    Were either actually found in the van? Does the report say that the test were run? And if so why are the results not in the report?

    And bonus question, why would they have explosives in the first place?


  • Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Di0genes wrote: »

    I've just opened the first link. This is the first line.
    Evidence obtained after a search by a police sniffer dog was ruled inadmissible by New South Wales Deputy Chief Magistrate Mary Jerram in Police v Darby, on 21 November 2001. The magistrate had earlier ruled that the dog had conducted a form of search and that the search was illegal.

    The sniffer dog evidence was inadmissable not because it was gained illegally. Nothing else. I have no interest in reading the rest of your links when you clearly don't bother.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,005 ✭✭✭Di0genes


    I've just opened the first link. This is the first line.


    The sniffer dog evidence was inadmissable not because it was gained illegally. Nothing else. I have no interest in reading the rest of your links when you clearly don't bother.

    Then you're clearly not paying attention.

    The sniffer dog can be used as justification to search a person, vechile or premise, the dog's reaction is in itself not admissiable.

    But you're the one who claims
    Sniffer dog evidence is admissable in court

    Please provide evidence to support this assertion.


  • Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    King Mob wrote: »
    And? Being in a car park isn't an indication of a crime, nor unusual for people working for a moving company.
    Dear me...please try to get up to speed with the facts. The FBI report would be a good place to start.

    The carpark they were seen in at 8am was the same carpark that were seen recording the carnage and celebrating the first plane hitting. 8am was over an hour before the first plane hit the WTC.
    The reason they claimed to be there under interrogation was to get a good view of the attack. So in your opinion it's not in any way strange that they were seen in the carpark that they "documented the event" at before there even was any hint of an event?
    King Mob wrote: »
    And of course this would be in the same carpark were they had to move from to get a better view right?
    Right. Your a smart kid surely you don't need me to explain to you that if something is obstructing your view of an object you want to view moving around the obstruction can lead to a clear view?
    King Mob wrote: »
    Again, and? I'm sure there was plenty of folk who acted like assholes and made inappropriate jokes and such. These guys were just caught.
    Oh I didn't know you were sure, that changes things then biggrin.gif. If your so sure it shouldn't be hard to find some evidence then.
    King Mob wrote: »
    And I see this as being evidence against them being Mossad agents. Or at the very least against them being competent and understanding basic intelligence skills.
    Fine, doesn't change anything though.
    King Mob wrote: »
    Well first, please actually point out were they actually said this to the FBI.

    And they actually told the FBI that the reason they were celebrating was because the attacks would be beneficial to Israel, that it was, quote, "a good thing for Israel" — that’s according to the FBI spokesman who spoke on the record about this — and that it would bring sympathy for Israel’s political agenda in the Middle East.


    King Mob wrote: »
    But that vantage point also was further north wasn't it?
    Isn't it true that they wouldn't have seen the impact point of the first plane from their initial vantage point which was to the south of the WTC?
    No, it's not true. The roof of Urban Moving Systems, (as far as I can tell would have been ideal for recording the first plane to hit, but would have been an awful place for recording the second plane to hit as the North Tower would obstruct the South Tower.

    This is from FEMA,
    59907_160104620673204_160102307340102_560297_678636_n.jpg

    Urban Moving System's roof was ideally placed to see/record the impact of the first tower (WTC 1) from across the Hudson.
    http://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=World+Trade+Center,+New+York,+NY,+United+States&daddr=3+W+18th+St,+Hoboken,+NJ+07086&hl=en&ll=40.739454,-74.014206&spn=0.064382,0.169086&sll=40.758895,-74.030342&sspn=0.032182,0.084543&geocode=FUg1bQIdwKmW-ynrSqmJGVrCiTGTW7M25GR7AA%3BFd7tbQIdy2KW-ylZkEA3flfCiTHAvem4vRUj0A&vpsrc=0&mra=ls&z=13

    THEN
    and before WTC 2 was hit they moved to the carpark were they could see both towers
    King Mob wrote: »
    And also, if being in the right place at the right time to actually see the plane hit the second tower (but also being on the wrong side to see the approach and impact) is an indication of them being in on it, them the thousand of people who were able to see the crash, and even record the impact all must have know about it. Right?
    No, wrong.
    King Mob wrote: »
    And what about WTC7? How did people know it was going to collapse 5 hours later? How were they able to be in positions to record it's collapse if the didn't know it was going to fall unless they were in on the conspiracy?
    A strange thing to bring up.
    King Mob wrote: »
    The report says it was a team leader on the ground that concluded that it was a possible fraudulent operation. This was not the conclusion of the FBI despite your claim.
    In an internal FBI report the team leader of the the FBI team investigating Urban Moving Systems calls it a possible fraudelent operation and it's not the conclusion of the FBI? Your in denial apparently.
    King Mob wrote: »
    And despite all of this they still had a work roster which the boss was able to produce.
    Wow! That changes everythingbiggrin.gif
    King Mob wrote: »
    So are you going to claim that they had the for thought to prepare the paper work in case they were investigated, but for some reason didn't buy stuff like work gloves, blanket, straps, ropes, boxes, dollies, rollers etc,?
    No. I was quoting the FBI who said that in their report they found it "odd" that the "movers" didn't have everyday moving equipment in their moving van. I agree it's odd. Don't you?
    King Mob wrote: »
    Well you've yet to actually prove that they are Mossad agents.
    It was confirmed by Mark Perelman for The Jewish Daily Forward who investigated it.
    King Mob wrote: »
    But that's not the same thing as explosives or explosive residue being found.
    Why do you keep stating the obvious?

    King Mob wrote: »
    Were either actually found in the van? Does the report say that the test were run?
    It says at one point that tests were being carried out and that results were pending.
    King Mob wrote: »
    And if so why are the results not in the report?
    Why are you asking me for? I had nothing to do with the report.
    King Mob wrote: »
    And bonus question, why would they have explosives in the first place?
    What's the primary function of explosives?


  • Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Di0genes wrote: »
    Then you're clearly not paying attention.

    The sniffer dog can be used as justification to search a person, vechile or premise, the dog's reaction is in itself not admissiable.

    But you're the one who claims



    Please provide evidence to support this assertion.

    Thanks but not thanks. I couldn't be less interested in discussing with you if sniffer dog evidence is admissable in court, when it is. Not interested in any blind alleys.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,005 ✭✭✭Di0genes


    Thanks but not thanks. I couldn't be less interested in discussing with you if sniffer dog evidence is admissable in court, when it is. Not interested in any blind alleys.

    So it's not admissible as evidence thanks thought as much.


  • Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Di0genes wrote: »
    So it's not admissible as evidence thanks thought as much.

    Here is an example of sniffer dog reactions being used as evidence in court in the US from this year. I'm saying no more about it.

    UNITED STATES of America, Plaintiff,
    v.
    Alberto GUTIERREZ-RUIZ, Defendant.


    ----


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,005 ✭✭✭Di0genes


    Here is an example of sniffer dog reactions being used as evidence in court in the US from this year. I'm saying no more about it.

    UNITED STATES of America, Plaintiff,
    v.
    Alberto GUTIERREZ-RUIZ, Defendant.

    You didn't understand any of that did you?

    Sniffer dog evidence is not admissible of proof that there were drugs in the car. It was used as justification of probable cause to justify a further search of car.

    Similarly the dogs alert on 911 is not "proof" of explosives in the van. And you can't arrest someone and charge them with possession simply because a dog gives a alert.

    Simply put a sniffer dog's alert is proof of nothing. It's not a admissible piece of evidence that you can bring to court. Which is what you claimed in your OP.


  • Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Di0genes wrote: »
    You didn't understand any of that did you?

    Sniffer dog evidence is not admissible of proof that there were drugs in the car. It was used as justification of probable cause to justify a further search of car.

    Similarly the dogs alert on 911 is not "proof" of explosives in the van. And you can't arrest someone and charge them with possession simply because a dog gives a alert.

    Simply put a sniffer dog's alert is proof of nothing. It's not a admissible piece of evidence that you can bring to court. Which is what you claimed in your OP.

    This is what I claimed.

    Which is exactly the reason I said what I said. Sniffer dog evidence is admissable in court. It is not an absolute guarantee but is a good indicator. We don't know the result of the tests on the van so it must remain considered that it is quite possible that the van had been carrying explosive materials.


    I stand by it and have nothing more to say on the matter.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,005 ✭✭✭Di0genes


    This is what I claimed.

    Which is exactly the reason I said what I said. Sniffer dog evidence is admissable in court.

    It's not evidence.
    It is not an absolute guarantee but is a good indicator.

    Then you clearly don't understand what the word evidence means in a court of law.
    We don't know the result of the tests on the van so it must remain considered that it is quite possible that the van had been carrying explosive materials.

    Thats' conjecture and speculation.

    A Sniffer dog barking can be used as probable cause for a police officer to conduct a court.

    You can't use a dog's reaction as evidence to form a conviction.

    It's probable cause not evidence

    You don't understand the difference.
    I stand by it and have nothing more to say on the matter.


  • Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    In the months prior to 9-11 an Israeli "art student" "possible" spy ring was busted by the DEA according to a DEA report leaked by Cryptome.org. The report shows many overlaps of the art students with the later 9-11 hijackers.

    On 9-11 a number of people were arrested in the New York/New Jersey area for terrorism related offenses, all were later released and all were riding in white vans.

    The best known are the "dancing Israelis" 5 men illegally in America working for what the FBI considered a possible front - Urban Moving Systems, whose owner, Dominik Suter fled the to Israel almost immediately after being questioned. Dominik Suter would later turn up on a leaked FBI terrorist list. The five were arrested after a complaint was made to police that they were seen recording and celebrating the attacks. One witness, who spoke with the FBI seen them in the Carpark at 8am, before the first plane hit.

    According to local NJ newspaper The Bergen Record on Sept 12 and the FBI report bomb-sniffing dogs reacted to their van.
    However, sources close to the investigation said they found other evidence linking the men to the bombing plot.


    "There are maps of the city in the car with certain places highlighted," the source said. "It looked like they're hooked in with this. It looked like they knew what was going to happen when they were at Liberty State Park."
    Sources also said that bomb-sniffing dogs reacted as if they had detected explosives, although officers were unable to find anything. The FBI seized the van for further testing, authorities said.

    There is evidence of apaprent explosions in the twin towers on 9-11.


    And so the other vans...

    Here Dan Rather reports on two men arrested on 9-11 by the FBI with a "truck full of explosives"


    And here is the rather strange case of the mural van which apparently was driving around New York on 9-11 and according to Police Radio transmission from 9-11 it's two passengers fled the car and were subsequently arrested and their van exploded.
    officer: [inaudible] I got a message on that uh plane,
    its a big truck with a mural painted of a of a airplane diving into New York City
    and exploding [inaudible] know whats in the truck, the truck is in between 6th and 7th on King Street
    officer: [inaudible] 10-5 10-5
    officer: with a mural painted uh airplane diving into New York blowing up. Two men got outta the truck
    ran away from it, we got those two [inaudible] under.
    officer: kay great.
    officer: we got both suspects under kay, we have the suspects who drivedrove in the van and that exploded
    we have both of them under kay lets get some help over here
    officer: now Im sending you [inaudible] I just want to make sure you and your guys all right over there kay, thats all.
    officer: whats the location [inaudible]
    officer: put em up, put em up
    officer: you know we have both the [inaudible] driven that exploded. Is that correct?
    officer: what location?
    officer: location [inaudible]
    officer: [inaudible] location [inaudible]
    officer: King Street between 6th and 7th
    officer: King Street and 6th and 7th avenue, King Street and 6th and 7th avenue
    officer: [inaudible] on the scene King 6 and 7, which unit are you kay?


    I want to make it abundantly clear that this has absolutely nothing to do with religion/race from the outset and any posts which try to go down that route will be ignored and reported for taking the thread off-topic.

    Also, I don't know what happened that day and don't have any answers and am not expecting any as it's an unsolved mystery, but one that's worth exploring IMO.

    A final point is that I am not interested in the "uhm..well, dey let em go" argument as it means nothing as the tail has been known to dog on occasions such as these.

    Otherwise, let's hope we can keep it clean and have a productive discussion.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,232 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Dear me...please try to get up to speed with the facts. The FBI report would be a good place to start.
    I've read the report. I just don't argee with your conclusions and miss representations of it and the surrounding facts.
    The carpark they were seen in at 8am was the same carpark that were seen recording the carnage and celebrating the first plane hitting. 8am was over an hour before the first plane hit the WTC.
    The reason they claimed to be there under interrogation was to get a good view of the attack. So in your opinion it's not in any way strange that they were seen in the carpark that they "documented the event" at before there even was any hint of an event?
    Was there any actual reports of them having recording equipment out before the impacts?

    So in your opinion is it strange that people working for a moving company would go to the same place twice in one day?
    Right. Your a smart kid surely you don't need me to explain to you that if something is obstructing your view of an object you want to view moving around the obstruction can lead to a clear view?
    Yes, thanks for the patronising. It does wonders for your argument.

    But I'm sure that you also understand how the same all applies to the damage already done by the first plane.

    And they actually told the FBI that the reason they were celebrating was because the attacks would be beneficial to Israel, that it was, quote, "a good thing for Israel" — that’s according to the FBI spokesman who spoke on the record about this — and that it would bring sympathy for Israel’s political agenda in the Middle East.
    That article does not supply support for what you are claiming.
    There's no source or reference and it's on a clearly biased site.

    And then even if we assume that they did actually say this, why does it prove they had foreknowledge?
    Isn't it possible that they just jumped the gun and assumed it was an attack before it was confirmed?
    No, it's not true. The roof of Urban Moving Systems, (as far as I can tell would have been ideal for recording the first plane to hit, but would have been an awful place for recording the second plane to hit as the North Tower would obstruct the South Tower.

    This is from FEMA,
    59907_160104620673204_160102307340102_560297_678636_n.jpg

    Urban Moving System's roof was ideally placed to see/record the impact of the first tower (WTC 1) from across the Hudson.
    http://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=World+Trade+Center,+New+York,+NY,+United+States&daddr=3+W+18th+St,+Hoboken,+NJ+07086&hl=en&ll=40.739454,-74.014206&spn=0.064382,0.169086&sll=40.758895,-74.030342&sspn=0.032182,0.084543&geocode=FUg1bQIdwKmW-ynrSqmJGVrCiTGTW7M25GR7AA%3BFd7tbQIdy2KW-ylZkEA3flfCiTHAvem4vRUj0A&vpsrc=0&mra=ls&z=13

    So then why weren't they at their better vantage point to film both impacts?
    Didn't you claim that they didn't know which tower was going to be hit first or from what direction they would be hit in to explain why they moved the wrong direction to see the impact of the second plane?

    THEN
    and before WTC 2 was hit they moved to the carpark were they could see both towers
    So then you're claiming that they started watching the towers at 8 in the car park, then back to their office, then back to the car park?
    No, wrong.

    A strange thing to bring up.
    Why is it strange?
    You're the one using the fact that they moved in time to get a view of the second tower being hit (though from the wrong direction) as evidence that they must have known about the attacks.
    But there's thousands of people who saw both impacts and even caught them on video. How did these people just happen to be filming the towers from just the right side to see the second plane go in..?
    And what about WTC7? Why would people bother to film it 5 hours after the attacks if no one knew that it was going to fall?

    If we are to apply your logic, everyone who managed to catch the planes and collapses on film must have been as clued in as the dancing Israelis
    In an internal FBI report the team leader of the the FBI team investigating Urban Moving Systems calls it a possible fraudelent operation and it's not the conclusion of the FBI? Your in denial apparently.
    No, just correcting your misrepresentation.
    You claimed the FBI said that they were a possible front.
    But in reality only a field agent expressed that opinion.

    They way you're claiming it makes it sound like it was the actual conclusion of the investigation.
    No. I was quoting the FBI who said that in their report they found it "odd" that the "movers" didn't have everyday moving equipment in their moving van. I agree it's odd. Don't you?
    Odd maybe, but not evidence.
    Now why was their boss able to produce a work roster if they were a fraudulent operation?
    It was confirmed by Mark Perelman for The Jewish Daily Forward who investigated it.
    Source?
    Why do you keep stating the obvious?
    Because you keep twisting facts.
    It says at one point that tests were being carried out and that results were pending.

    Why are you asking me for? I had nothing to do with the report.
    So then no explosives were actually found in the van?
    What's the primary function of explosives?
    Exploding stuff?
    Are you saying that these guys were planting bombs at the world trade centre?


  • Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    King Mob wrote: »
    You claimed the FBI said that they were a possible front.
    But in reality only a field agent expressed that opinion.
    Nope, a team leader of the unit investigating Urban Moving Systems concluded that they are a possible fraudelent operation. This is significant. Do you deny this? Have you any counter-evidence?
    King Mob wrote: »
    So then no explosives were actually found in the van?
    Why are you asking me this? I've already told you that the results were pending according to the FBI report. There is no further information. There may have been trace elements of explosives found, we don't know.


  • Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    King Mob wrote: »
    That article does not supply support for what you are claiming.
    There's no source or reference and it's on a clearly biased site.

    You obviously didn't read it properly but I'll get back to that later in the post.

    I'm getting tired of this spoon feeding tbh, but here is your source - FBI Spokesman Jim Margolin.
    “Their explanation of why they were happy”, FBI spokesman Margolin told me, “was that the United States would now have to commit itself to fighting [Middle East] terrorism, that Americans would have an understanding and empathy for Israel’s circumstances, and that the attacks were ultimately a good thing for Israel”.
    http://www.christopherketcham.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/Final%20PDF%20of%20CounterPunch%20article%20re%20Israelis%2001-29-07.pdf
    This is supported by one of the movers statements in the FBI report:
    At this point BLANK apologised for appearing happy in the photographs. BLANK stated that Israel has been dealing with incidents like this for years. He believes that the US will take steps to stop terrorism in the world.

    Now I've more than cleared up what you wanted to clear so I'd appreciate if you'd keep your word and now address these earlier posed questions:


    "They were celebrating at the latest after the first tower was hit and before the second one was, when nobody else had known it was a terrorist attack.

    How did they a) know it was a terrorist attack before the US government and b) know it was Islamic terrorists?"

    King Mob wrote: »
    Source?
    This is actually funny...The "source" you require is the one you have just commented on - The "clearly biased site" :pac:

    Obviously you didn't read it so I'll post it here again for your convenience.
    MARC PERELMAN:
    Yes, we ended up writing a story in March of 2002, after several months of reporting, because when this incident happened, obviously, a lot of people were intrigued, including journalists. And so, everybody was trying to find more information about this. And I’ve been talking to sources and trying to find out a little bit more, and after a while, I was able to confirm that, according to the FBI, two of those movers were identified as Mossad agents. And they were interrogated about it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,232 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Nope, a team leader of the unit investigating Urban Moving Systems concluded that they are a possible fraudelent operation. This is significant. Do you deny this? Have you any counter-evidence?
    So then you understand the difference between that and attributing that opinion to the whole FBI?

    And again, why was the boss able to produce a work roster?
    Why had they gone to the trouble of faking a random piece of paperwork, but then were either too lazy, too cheap or too stupid to buy other stuff to add to their cover?
    Why are you asking me this? I've already told you that the results were pending according to the FBI report. There is no further information. There may have been trace elements of explosives found, we don't know.
    Because there's a difference between dogs reacting and there actually being explosives in the van.
    You can't honestly claim that as convincing or solid evidence.

    And again: did the dancing Israelis actually have recording equipment out before the impact of the first plane?


  • Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    you address my questions first as you said you would or we'll end up all over the place.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,232 ✭✭✭✭King Mob



    "They were celebrating at the latest after the first tower was hit and before the second one was, when nobody else had known it was a terrorist attack.

    How did they a) know it was a terrorist attack before the US government and b) know it was Islamic terrorists?"
    Because they jumped the gun and made these assumptions before it was confirmed?
    And this is of course assuming that these statements were made before it was actually confirm and that they are just bull****ing to cover the fact they were just plain assholes rather than politically motivated ones.

    Now can you please explain what is impossible about explanation before just dismissing it out of hand?
    This is actually funny...The "source" you require is the one you have just commented on - The "clearly biased site" :pac:

    Obviously you didn't read it so I'll post it here again for your convenience.
    So a unnamed source making an unverifiable quote as provided by a biased reporter?


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  • Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    King Mob wrote: »
    Because they jumped the gun and made these assumptions before it was confirmed?
    And this is of course assuming that these statements were made before it was actually confirm and that they are just bull****ing to cover the fact they were just plain assholes rather than politically motivated ones.

    Now can you please explain what is impossible about explanation before just dismissing it out of hand?
    Well it's a ludicrous conclusion. These guys - who somehow knew that been pulled over by police regarding the attacks before the police said anything, "we are not you problem! The Palestinians are!", who for some reason lied to police regarding their whereabouts between 9 and 10 am on the morning of 9-11 -- these same guys, TRY TO IMPLICATE THEMSELVES TO 9-11 SO THEY WOULDN*T LOOK LIKE "PLAIN ASSHOLES"? That King Mob is a laughable assumption.

    King Mob wrote: »
    So a unnamed source making an unverifiable quote as provided by a biased reporter?
    Seriously King Mob WTF are you talking about? Biased reporter? Mark Perelman was a staff writer for The Jewish Daily Forward. He is certainly not biased against Israel. That's crazy talk.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,232 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Well it's a ludicrous conclusion.
    Why? The twin towers had been attacked before, it's not a wild stab in the dark to think that it was terrorism.
    Most news agencies reported that an attack might have been a possibility even before it was confirmed.
    These guys could have just assumed it rashly and behaved in appropriately.
    These guys - who somehow knew that been pulled over by police regarding the attacks before the police said anything, "we are not you problem! The Palestinians are!",
    And again this still gels with them just rashly assuming something before it was confirmed.

    But then he did mention it was Palestinians who were behind the attack... how did they know it was Palestinians before.... oh wait...

    And if no one had though that it was a terrorist attack before it was confirmed why were these guys picked up in the first place?
    who for some reason lied to police regarding their whereabouts between 9 and 10 am on the morning of 9-11 -- these same guys, TRY TO IMPLICATE THEMSELVES TO 9-11 SO THEY WOULDN*T LOOK LIKE "PLAIN ASSHOLES"? That King Mob is a laughable assumption.
    Now you're either misunderstand what I said or trying to avoid it.

    If they had just behave like that because that though the explosions were cool (like other immature, insensitive people might) they would look like pretty big assholes.
    So the explanation that they were excited because of the political change that might come about sounds less immature and idiotic, so later they offer this explanation.

    But of course that wasn't my actual point.

    So again, is it impossible that they just made the assumption it was a terrorist attack before it was actually confirmed?
    Seriously King Mob WTF are you talking about? Biased reporter? Mark Perelman was a staff writer for The Jewish Daily Forward. He is certainly not biased against Israel. That's crazy talk.
    Biased towards a conspiracy explanation.
    And you know, still using an unnamed source and unverifiable information.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,005 ✭✭✭Di0genes


    Well it's a ludicrous conclusion.

    While people who only heard about the first plane hitting the tower presumed it was an accident, anyone who actually witnessed the flight would hardly been in any doubt. Or have you forgotten the Naudet brothers footage


  • Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Di0genes wrote: »
    Right a jewish writer or paper can't be critical of the Israeli state?
    Did I say that? No I didn't. That's come from your own imagination, hasn't it? You must try and pay attention.

    I've linked to Haaretz, and primarily to Gideon Levy here on boards criticizing Israeli policies so obviously I don't think this.
    Di0genes wrote: »
    Here's a editorial from the Jewish Daily Forward criticising the state of Israel
    Thanks for the irrelevant information. Please learn the difference between criticism and bias for next time.
    Di0genes wrote: »
    You sound supremely confident that Mark Perelman would never been biased against Israeli. How can you be so confident. Do you have any evidence to support your assertion?
    The claim was made that Mark Perelman was a "biased (against Israel) reporter". If that was the case no respectable news outlet would hire him. It's total nonsense of the kind you need to resort to when defending a nonsensical position. A respected journalist working for a respected journal becomes a "biased reporter" when he doesn't report what you want. T'riffic.
    Di0genes wrote: »
    Or is that he's just writing for the Jewish Daily Forward, and has a jew sounding name so it's impossible for you to conceive that he'd have this bias?
    Here is his articles http://www.forward.com/authors/marc-perelman/

    Show me he is a "biased reporter"or drop it.


  • Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Di0genes wrote: »
    While people who only heard about the first plane hitting the tower presumed it was an accident, anyone who actually witnessed the flight would hardly been in any doubt. Or have you forgotten the Naudet brothers footage

    And here is someone else who hasn't read the FBI report. Their claim is that they didn't witness the first impact so your claim is irrelevant.

    They are in the first group you mentioned, or at least should be

    "people who only heard about the first plane hitting the tower (and) presumed it was an accident"

    Yet they KNEW it was a terrorist attack...somehow.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,976 ✭✭✭✭humanji


    Sorry, I wasn't about before. Di0genes banned for a week. I'm editing and deleting the off-topic posts.


  • Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    humanji wrote: »
    Sorry, I wasn't about before. Di0genes banned for a week. I'm editing and deleting the off-topic posts.

    No worries and thanks.


  • Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    King Mob wrote: »
    Why? The twin towers had been attacked before,
    With a car bomb. We are talking about a plane crashing into a high building, A very plausible accident. Something with a precedent.
    King Mob wrote: »
    it's not a wild stab in the dark to think that it was terrorism.
    Of course it's a wild stab in the dark to think that a hijacked passenger jet crashing into a building is suicide terrorist attack because it's never happened before in the history of the world before or since. And it's not even the case for the movers that they suspected it might be a terrorist attack - They were completely sure as their behaviour and statements attests to, ALL FIVE OF THEM.
    King Mob wrote: »
    Most news agencies reported that an attack might have been a possibility even before it was confirmed.
    Many? No they didn't. I'd doubt if ANY did. Please show evidence of this.

    And remember we are talking about the time between the first tower being hit and the second only, which is the time they were "documenting" and "celebrating".

    Realistically we are talking about the first 2-3 minutes after the first plane hitting apx. Anything longer than that and the movers story falls to pieces as it would be impossible for them to make it from their office to the apartment building.
    King Mob wrote: »
    These guys could have just assumed it rashly and behaved in appropriately.
    Well yeah, but given the facts it's extremely unlikely.

    King Mob wrote: »
    And again this still gels with them just rashly assuming something before it was confirmed.
    NY and NJ have 16 million people between them yet you'd have me believe that the only people seen celebrating the attacks just happened to be working for the same small "company"? ;) It's completely ridiculous.
    King Mob wrote: »
    And if no one had though that it was a terrorist attack before it was confirmed why were these guys picked up in the first place?
    Again I'd refer you to the FBI report that you claim you've read :D

    Maybe you missed this part? The housewife in the NJ apartment complex who had seen them recording and celebrating the attacks on top of their van in apartment complexes multi-storey carpark only phoned the police with the van's registration number when her husband got back from work that afternoon. The BOLO (Be On The Lookout) for the van/passengers was only issued by the East Rutherford police at 3:30 that afternoon. i.e. long after the second plane hit and it was certainly a terrorist attack.

    Please, read the report. These are schoolboy errors.
    King Mob wrote: »
    If they had just behave like that because that though the explosions were cool (like other immature, insensitive people might) they would look like pretty big assholes.
    So the explanation that they were excited because of the political change that might come about sounds less immature and idiotic, so later they offer this explanation.
    Riggggggggghhhhht......

    It's logical that anyone when under interrogation by the FBI counter-terrorism division who wasn't involved in a terrorist attack would intentionally try to implicate themselves in a the terrorist attack they were being interrogated over so they wouldn't look "immature". Thanks for the laugh ...;)
    King Mob wrote: »
    But of course that wasn't my actual point.
    Then what was?
    King Mob wrote: »
    So again, is it impossible that they just made the assumption it was a terrorist attack before it was actually confirmed?
    Is it impossible that Uri Geller flew in on a magic carpet and told them through the power of his mind?


  • Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    King Mob wrote: »
    So then you understand the difference between that and attributing that opinion to the whole FBI?
    Yes. I also understand that the difference is irrelevant. The FBI search team leader, who we must assume by his position is an experienced, competent and qualified investigator considered it to be a possible "fraudelent operation".
    A search of UMS Weehawken, New Jersy, revealed more oddities which caused the search team leader to characterise the company as a possible "fraudulent operation." Little evidence of a legitimate business operations was found. Evidence recovery agents did seize, however, sixteen separate computer units used by UMS.

    "Little evidence of a legitimate business operation was found"


    This was the conclusion of the FBI search. Why won't you accept this? Because it doesn't fit with you "boys will be boys" theory?

    Nevermind that it's owner/President fled the country leaving his home and business behind and ended up on an FBI terrorist suspect list.
    King Mob wrote: »
    And again, why was the boss able to produce a work roster?
    Something that could be thrown together in two minutes after they had been arrested. This is meaningless.

    King Mob wrote: »
    Why had they gone to the trouble of faking a random piece of paperwork, but then were either too lazy, too cheap or too stupid to buy other stuff to add to their cover?
    That is not a question I can answer. You'd have to ask them. The fact remains
    "Little evidence of a legitimate business operation was found"

    That coupled with the fact that no moving equipment was found in the van the guys were arrested in gives a fairly straighforward conclusion.
    Oddly, equipment typically used in a moving company's daily duties was not found, including work gloves, blankets, straps, ropes, boxes, dollies, rollers, etc

    This is compounded by the what they actually did have on them,
    Seizure of the individuals' property yielded the following: a 35mm camera, several personal telephone-style notebooks, back packs, airline tickets with immediate travel dates for destinations world-wide, Israeli passports (in some case, expired), a German passport, USDollars 4,700 in cash belonging to BLANK and USDollars 1,022 in cash belonging to BLANK and Student identification cards later believed to be false were also found.
    King Mob wrote: »
    Because there's a difference between dogs reacting and there actually being explosives in the van.
    I'm aware of that. I'm also aware that the dogs reacting for explosives makes it a strong possibilty that there was in fact explosive material in the van at some point.
    King Mob wrote: »
    And again: did the dancing Israelis actually have recording equipment out before the impact of the first plane?
    Possibly. It is undetermined.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 25,232 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    With a car bomb. We are talking about a plane crashing into a high building, A very plausible accident. Something with a precedent.

    Of course it's a wild stab in the dark to think that a hijacked passenger jet crashing into a building is suicide terrorist attack because it's never happened before in the history of the world before or since. And it's not even the case for the movers that they suspected it might be a terrorist attack - They were completely sure as their behaviour and statements attests to, ALL FIVE OF THEM.
    But the towers had been attacked before, so it's not a far off conclusion.
    There conclusion would not have been a logical one at the time. But You only have to look at threads here to see how people are convinced of ridiculous, far fetched explanations for many disasters.
    Many? No they didn't. I'd doubt if ANY did. Please show evidence of this.
    Here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhqLh_c0NL4
    At about 5:18 they mention the '93 attacks.
    At 7:05 they specifically mention it could be a terrorist act minutes before the second plane hits. And when it does, he mentions Osama. How did he know it was him before it was confirmed?
    Well yeah, but given the facts it's extremely unlikely.
    More unlikely that a vast conspiracy that they were stupid enough to blow open because they weren't able to sit still?
    NY and NJ have 16 million people between them yet you'd have me believe that the only people seen celebrating the attacks just happened to be working for the same small "company"? ;) It's completely ridiculous.
    This point might be valid if they were all caught celebrating separate from each other. And no I'm specifically not saying that they were the only ones acting like that.
    Riggggggggghhhhht......

    It's logical that anyone when under interrogation by the FBI counter-terrorism division who wasn't involved in a terrorist attack would intentionally try to implicate themselves in a the terrorist attack they were being interrogated over so they wouldn't look "immature". Thanks for the laugh ...;)

    Then what was?
    Again you're misunderstanding and strawmaning a off handed side point I made.
    And so how does what they claimed implicate them in a terrorist attack?
    Yes. I also understand that the difference is irrelevant. The FBI search team leader, who we must assume by his position is an experienced, competent and qualified investigator considered it to be a possible "fraudelent operation".

    "Little evidence of a legitimate business operation was found"


    This was the conclusion of the FBI search. Why won't you accept this? Because it doesn't fit with you "boys will be boys" theory?

    Nevermind that it's owner/President fled the country leaving his home and business behind and ended up on an FBI terrorist suspect list.
    Please point out were I wasn't accepting this, I'm just pointing out how you are misreporting the fact.
    Something that could be thrown together in two minutes after they had been arrested. This is meaningless.
    So the FBI on the ground mentioned that the single piece of paperwork they were given was an obvious fake and actually stood out since there was no other evidence of a business?
    That is not a question I can answer. You'd have to ask them. The fact remains
    Funny how you can speculate about how they faked a work roster, but can't possibly think of I reason they couldn't blow 200 dollars on basic equipment to maintain their cover.
    That coupled with the fact that no moving equipment was found in the van the guys were arrested in gives a fairly straighforward conclusion.

    This is compounded by the what they actually did have on them,
    And they had all that, but nothing to help them keep their cover?
    Best agents ever.
    I'm aware of that. I'm also aware that the dogs reacting for explosives makes it a strong possibilty that there was in fact explosive material in the van at some point.
    But not strong enough to actually conclude there were explosives present.
    So really dogs reacting is about as much of an indicator as them searching someone.

    And then there's the fact that explosives being in the van doesn't make sense with your explanation for what they were doing.
    Possibly. It is undetermined.
    Funny, given the entire case for them having foreknowledge hinges on that.


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