Fianna Fáil not toxic anymore?

Dirk Gently

I've done a fair amount of head shaking at people who claim FF are a spent force in this country. I remind them that the Irish voter has always in the past and will continue in the future to vote for people or parties they know to be corrupt or incompetent. This is just another intermission between FF destruction, a care taker government and eventual FF coming to power again, as is always the case. I've told people, they're just keeping their heads down for a while till the anger evaporates and they can then be electable again. I estimated FG/LAB would get 2 terms and then FF would be back in government.

I now wonder if I was actually over optimistic in thinking FF will be out for 2 terms. Is the FF brand now electable again already? Gallagher has polled very well in the presidential election despite his clear FF connections and the young FF lad has also polled very well n the Dub West bi-election. Neither will win the count but still very strong showings for members of a party who lost our sovereignty and are frankly corrupt self serving gombeens.

Could FF be back as early as the next general election? I genuinely fear they could even form a coalition that early.

Sand

Dublin West returned Lenny - who was responsible for a lot of stupid decisions - last time out, so actually failing to return the next Fianna Fail candidate this time out wouldnt be a sign of a FF resurgence.

The same goes for Sean Gallacher - he ran as an independant, put distance between himself and that party, and he fundraising activities for Fianna Fail are apparently the cause of his vote collapse if you believe the media ( I for the record am still completely befuddled about what the controversy actually was...). Plus he was running against an incredibly poor pool of rivals - catholic fascists, washed up terrorists and poetry quoting leprechauns. Seanie Fitzpatrick could have run a credible campaign against that competition.

None of this actually strikes me as a sign of Fianna Fail pushing itself back off the ropes. There will always be a solid core of Fianna Fail voters who are bound to the party/cult by ties of blood and religious faith. Those solid core votes are not enough to win elections - you need the swing voters. Fianna Fail as it exists has lost those voters forever - the brand name is toxic.

Permabear

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lugha

Permabear wrote: »

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But such was FF taste for populism you can hardly imagine them rebuilding and not trying to pick up some easy support from the increasing ranks of voters who think socialism will save us.

Dirk Gently

Sand you're a glass is half full kinda guy. My glass seems to be half empty.

Sticky_Fingers

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

We need a strong opposition but that does not necessarily mean we need FF. They truly are damaged goods and IMO their reputation as a party is tainted beyond all hope of redemption within the foreseeable future.

They would be better off disbanding and reforming a completely new party, a total and absolute break with their past is needed, get rid of the holdovers and start recruiting a fresh crop of candidates.

Without Fianna Fáil, we will have Fine Gael–led governments for the foreseeable future.

Which is just like having FF back in government, they are just continuing on the failed policies of their "opponents" across the floor.

Alternatively, we will get some Grand Coalition of the Left, which would be an unprecedented disaster in terms of the damage it could wreak on a fragile and struggling economy.

Too right, the parties of power won't want any competition in this regard, they seem to be doing a pretty good job of it themselves :P

Manach

Politics is a matter of balance. When the current government starts to behave in a regal manner, believing it is right as a matter of course (Mr Shatter and his referenda), some form of counter-balancing opposition forms. Hopefully one with a centralist/conservative base.

woodoo

I hope we get two full terms without FF at the helm. That has never happened before and should provide ample time for them to reform.

jonsnow

I thought sean gallahers spectacular run was chilling.He came within a whisker of being president.He is Fianna fail.

Gives the appearance of competence.Check.
Came across as a successful innovative and fairly large scale entrepreneur despite being a small businessman who piggybacked on the boom and had useful FF connections on state boards etc.

Kind of "hail fella well met" persona you,ld like to have a pint with.Check
One of the reasons fianna fail have done so well is that the party is always full of these types.Much more fun than the boring and thrifty fianna Gael and labour types.

Radiated unrealistic positivity and not telling irish people what they need to hear.Check.
Fianna failers always have unwarranted optimism -both in their own abilities and the countries situation.

Centrist politically and economically.Check
Typical FF

Low ethical standards.Check.
Low standards re fuel smugglergate,resting in account gate and telling the truth about the gates gate.

Coldeyed ambition and luck.Check
This guy was a barely known entity and he came within a whisker of the presidency.

This tells me that the fianna fail brand is still sellable to the irish people.You just can,t call it fianna fail yet.They will be back sooner than I would have initially thought.They will rebuild with new untainted "talent" who will have "learned from the mistakes" and "should be given another chance"

Sir Oxman

jonsnow wrote: »

I thought sean gallahers spectacular run was chilling.He came within a whisker of being president.He is Fianna fail.

Gives the appearance of competence.Check.
Came across as a successful innovative and fairly large scale entrepreneur despite being a small businessman who piggybacked on the boom and had useful FF connections on state boards etc.

Kind of "hail fella well met" persona you,ld like to have a pint with.Check
One of the reasons fianna fail have done so well is that the party is always full of these types.Much more fun than the boring and thrifty fianna Gael and labour types.

Radiated unrealistic positivity and not telling irish people what they need to hear.Check.
Fianna failers always have unwarranted optimism -both in their own abilities and the countries situation.

Centrist politically and economically.Check
Typical FF

Low ethical standards.Check.
Low standards re fuel smugglergate,resting in account gate and telling the truth about the gates gate.

Coldeyed ambition and luck.Check
This guy was a barely known entity and he came within a whisker of the presidency.

This tells me that the fianna fail brand is still sellable to the irish people.You just can,t call it fianna fail yet.They will be back sooner than I would have initially thought.They will rebuild with new untainted "talent" who will have "learned from the mistakes" and "should be given another chance"

Excellent synopsis.
It really is that simple.

Sierra Oscar

woodoo wrote: »

I hope we get two full terms without FF at the helm. That has never happened before and should provide ample time for them to reform.

FF will not get any where near government after the next election I suspect, nor do we want to.

As a member of the party though I can say that there really has been a considerable thawing in attitudes towards the party, and thats coming from someone who has been knocking on doors in various constituencies since the election. However momentous work remains to be done. FF has a long process of rebuilding and reform ahead and the members realize this. There are very few FF members who think the party will just bounce back due to the inevitable unpopularity of the government.

It has been a difficult two years to be a member of FF, but I think the worst of it is over. Its an exciting time to be a member of the party to be honest - I am greatly looking forward to the upcoming Ard Fheis!

Mr.Micro

Not toxic after just 7 months or so in opposition? Have all the problems associated with FF gone away? No, indeed they may still get worse for some time to come. It is the shallowness in FF that it does not examine its core and realize that it is rotten. What is going to change when the likes of Martin, O'Dea
are still at the helm and promoting SG as their candidate, but pretending he was not FF. So long as people believe that FF are bad for the economy then toxic they will stay. In the meantime FF may well be overtaken by SF. If people wish to tolerate cronyism,corruption,chancers, fiscal incompetence, lies and the rest then FF are not toxic.

liammur

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Not toxic after just 7 months or so in opposition? Have all the problems associated with FF gone away? No, indeed they may still get worse for some time to come. It is the shallowness in FF that it does not examine its core and realize that it is rotten. What is going to change when the likes of Martin, O'Dea
are still at the helm and promoting SG as their candidate, but pretending he was not FF. So long as people believe that FF are bad for the economy then toxic they will stay. In the meantime FF may well be overtaken by SF. If people wish to tolerate cronyism,corruption,chancers, fiscal incompetence, lies and the rest then FF are not toxic.

I agree, electing Martin as leader was very poor, they need a clean break from the last cabinet.

johngalway

jonsnow wrote: »

This tells me that the fianna fail brand is still sellable to the irish people.You just can,t call it fianna fail yet.

Met a guy I know at the mart last Friday week, dyed in the wool FFer. There was a bunch of us talking about the Presidential election "I'm voting Sean Gallagher, I don't know why but I kinda like him". I said "Because he's FF, you know it and so do the rest of us".

Well he had a grin like a Cheshire cat and flat out denied it :rolleyes: Yeah right.

No more than MMG putting it out there he wasn't looking for a SF vote. Yet yesterday a SF official said how well the party had done and how they had increased "their vote", and later MMG said much the same.

Most of them will lie through their pearly whites until people give them what they want then screw the lot of us, never said that at all sure...

Mr.Micro

johngalway wrote: »

Met a guy I know at the mart last Friday week, dyed in the wool FFer. There was a bunch of us talking about the Presidential election "I'm voting Sean Gallagher, I don't know why but I kinda like him". I said "Because he's FF, you know it and so do the rest of us".

Well he had a grin like a Cheshire cat and flat out denied it :rolleyes: Yeah right.

No more than MMG putting it out there he wasn't looking for a SF vote. Yet yesterday a SF official said how well the party had done and how they had increased "their vote", and later MMG said much the same.

Most of them will lie through their pearly whites until people give them what they want then screw the lot of us, never said that at all sure...

You can fool all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time, as the saying goes. Imagine the back slapping at FF/SG headquarters if they had got SG in on his pseudo Indo ticket? We would be all eejits and how clever FF were at fooling us all again. Nearly worked, I must say maybe FF will learn a lesson that honesty is the best policy?

evolving_doors

Mr.Micro wrote: »

I must say maybe FF will learn a lesson that honesty is the best policy?

Hmm I think those two words Honesty and Fianna Fail will never go together it's in FF genes to be shifty, for a young state like ireland 'shifty' was the easiest way to get anywhere fast but that's changing now.
People are starting to wake up.

FF just have a bad smell about them, it just took SG to mention 3 words to loose an election.. FF, Envelope and Recollection.. it seemed as if he was trying to take people for fools like most of his FF predecessors..


Son: " Dad... I have something to tell you"
Father: "What is it son you know you can tell me anything"
Son: "Dad.. I think I want to vote Fianna Fail"
Father: " NOOOooooooooooo...."

Spacedog

Fianna Fáil have always been toxic, whether people vote for them or not.

I would go on to extend this to all political parties, professional politicians cannot be trusted, people from industry, science, engineering, teaching should be elected to represent us, wise people who are respectable and can be trusted to make the right decisions.

Party politicians get elected through advertising, marketing and playing games with the numbers and the media.

I never vote for anyone who is not brave enough to stand on their own beliefs, can stand tall and defend them in person.

Patricia McKenna for example got dogged here on board.ie for walking on the green party when in power. Hind sight indicates that she was 100% correct to do so, considering the aftermath of the bank bailout, and the greens were nothing more than yes men.

You can jump on independents for having real personalities and querks, but if you can imagine a dail filled with different real people, with diverse political opinions, combined with their own perhaps imperfect way of expressing themselves. It would be interesting to watch, and provide better insight to the issues discussed.

Pawwed Rig

Spacedog wrote: »

You can jump on independents for having real personalities and querks, but if you can imagine a dail filled with different real people, with diverse political opinions, combined with their own perhaps imperfect way of expressing themselves. It would be interesting to watch, and provide better insight to the issues discussed.

It would also be next to impossible to pass any legislation and would provide little stability.

Mr.Micro wrote: »

In the meantime FF may well be overtaken by SF. If people wish to tolerate cronyism,corruption,chancers, fiscal incompetence, lies and the rest then FF are not toxic.

I always wonder why FF and SF are always talked about together in that SF are trying to get disenfranchised FF voters. They are very different parties. You would imagine SF would benefit by attacking Labour whereas the FF vote would goto FG (who are pretty much the same party policywise). Strange thing Irish politics. Unfortunately FF are still associated with patriotism and republicanism (despite ruining the country).

Funny coz I was considering voting for SG until a guy I know avid FF) 'liked' him on facebook.

Congrats to Michael D. I think generally he was the least offensive candidate

dsmythy

Being populist they'll go for the vote getters. I'd expect them to try more left wing politiking.

Teclo

Democracy is about choice. FF will be the only realistic alternative to those who want rid of this government and have it replaced by something that isn't far left or provo. They may not like FF or even have forgiven them for leading us to where we are but they will still get votes, although maybe not enough to get into government the next time.

doc_17

FF will always be toxic in my mind. Bunch of yahoos

Corsendonk

Apart from sending FF voters and party members to North Korea for "re-education" FF will always be toxic to a section of Irish voters no matter how they clean up their image. The danger do with the extreme anti FF hype going around is that the people that voted FF over the last 40 years having to continually listen and read that FF voters were/are stupid or sheep can easily get peoples backs up and energise them to get out and vote for FF. I suspect that some of the most rabid anti FFs when inside a poll boot actually ticked the FF candidate box in the past.

jimmycrackcorm

I still cannot fathom how people are confusing political affiliation with the presidential election.

This election was simply the XFactor of politics, it all resolved around personality. To suggest that FF is not toxic based on the Gallagher votes is to suggest that the Fg/Labour government numbers would be reversed if a general election were to be held first thing in the morning.

michael999999

When the investigation into the banks and developers are finished, so too are Fianna Fail.

When the bankers start singing, It will go right to the top.

Son Of A Vidic

I really couldn't careless about FF but I have no doubt if you give the current crowd another 12-13 years in power, their record probably won't be very different.

Sierra Oscar

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

This election was simply the XFactor of politics, it all resolved around personality. To suggest that FF is not toxic based on the Gallagher votes is to suggest that the Fg/Labour government numbers would be reversed if a general election were to be held first thing in the morning.

FF polled second place with 22% in Dublin West, just 2% behind the elected Labour candidate.

mikemac

They had a strong candidate in Dublin West in McGuinness, people voting for the candidate and not the party

If FG put up Kieran Dennison then FF would not have finished second
Now if that was Varadkar fearing a strong running mate I don't realy know

FG seem to be getting a track record for selecting weak candidates

dsmythy

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

FF polled second place with 22% in Dublin West, just 2% behind the elected Labour candidate.

That was unique given the reasons for the by-election in the first place. FF were always going to score high in this instance.

Sierra Oscar

dsmythy wrote: »

That was unique given the reasons for the by-election in the first place. FF were always going to score high in this instance.

Not necessarily - if you analyse the actual voting pattern in the by-election it seems you can put the performance down to the candidate.

David managed to substantially improve the FF vote in areas in Dublin West where there traditionally was a very poor FF vote. He also managed to greatly improve the FF vote as compared to what Brian Lenihan achieved in the last General Election. It is most likely down to his involvement in the community and his connection with more working class areas of the constituency, along with the support of the FF organisation across the constituency. Its likely that he has started the process of consolidating a personal vote for himself.

Just shows that with a good candidate you can perform far better than what the national opinion polls predict.

Blowfish

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Not necessarily - if you analyse the actual voting pattern in the by-election it seems you can put the performance down to the candidate.

David managed to substantially improve the FF vote in areas in Dublin West where there traditionally was a very poor FF vote. He also managed to greatly improve the FF vote as compared to what Brian Lenihan achieved in the last General Election. It is most likely down to his involvement in the community and his connection with more working class areas of the constituency, along with the support of the FF organisation across the constituency. Its likely that he has started the process of consolidating a personal vote for himself.

Just shows that with a good candidate you can perform far better than what the national opinion polls predict.

That's a pretty poor comparison really. Brian Lenihan as the 'main' FF candidate was up against the likes of Varadkar, Burton and Higgins.

McGuinness on the other hand as the 'main' FF candidate was up against the 2nd string/weaker candidates from the other partys. You can't really say that FF have improved their support given that fact.

Yahew

FF probably are a spent force for two reasons.

1) I know ex-FF, some on these boards, who will never vote for them again. These are the people in negative equity. Since no-one wants to blame themselves, these guys blame FF, and until negative equity is fixed, which it won't be, FF are toxic to them.
2) FF has permanently lost some of the more nationalistic working class vote to SF. Thats gone for good.

They may get back to 20% ish. But never 40%.

Sierra Oscar

Blowfish wrote: »

That's a pretty poor comparison really. Brian Lenihan as the 'main' FF candidate was up against the likes of Varadkar, Burton and Higgins.

McGuinness on the other hand as the 'main' FF candidate was up against the 2nd string/weaker candidates from the other partys. You can't really say that FF have improved their support given that fact.

Its all pretty relative to be honest - Lenihan had the same profile, if not a higher one, than the likes of Varadkar, Burton & Higgins.

Sir Oxman

mikemac wrote: »

They had a strong candidate in Dublin West in McGuinness, people voting for the candidate and not the party

If FG put up Kieran Dennison then FF would not have finished second
Now if that was Varadkar fearing a strong running mate I don't realy know

FG seem to be getting a track record for selecting weak candidates

Loftus was truly awful! I mean, an awful candidate!

[Jackass]

Dirk Gently wrote: »

Could FF be back as early as the next general election? I genuinely fear they could even form a coalition that early.

I am very proud to say that when it became clear how badly FF did in the last GE, someone said to me that they are finished in Irish politics, and on the spot I put a 10 euro bet with that person that they will be the leading party in the next Government. When I do win that bet, and I will, I will share a pint with you as the only 2 rational humans on this island.

If they ask for the divil, let them rot in hell.

michael999999

Once the investigations into the corruption in the banks are finished, and the bankers and developers start spilling the beans to save themselves, Fianna Fail and the part they played will become apparent and the party will be finished!

Sierra Oscar

michael999999 wrote: »

Once the investigations into the corruption in the banks are finished, and the bankers and developers start spilling the beans to save themselves, Fianna Fail and the part they played will become apparent and the party will be finished!

Do you have some inside information? I would love to hear it! . . .

later12

gambiaman wrote: »

Loftus was truly awful! I mean, an awful candidate!

What does that say about the FG party both locally and nationally that they apaear to have had "bad luck" with both candidates.

Co-incidence?

Fianna Fail have a long way to go in restoring credibility. In fact, they are so far off restoring credibility that they may as well forget about doing so.

For now, all that Fianna Fail should even attempt to do is to point out its past mistakes as are being conintued by Fine Gael and Labour. That includes, amongst other things, paying out on senior unsecured debt to bondholders at Anglo Irish Bank, when such payouts could seriously lessen the impact of the upcoming budget on hard pressed Irish citizens.

Fianna Fail TDs can criticize such behaviour because that is exactly the sort of foolish behaviour that they were previously, and ashamedly, attached to.

blorg

Sand wrote: »

Dublin West returned Lenny - who was responsible for a lot of stupid decisions - last time out, so actually failing to return the next Fianna Fail candidate this time out wouldnt be a sign of a FF resurgence.

It was a by-election, so there was only one seat. FF went from fourth to second; had it been a general election they would have certainly have got a seat. Labour simply repeated their GE performance with a first place; that a party can end up with two seats in this way does not suggest they would get two in a GE.

RichardAnd

I personally agree with the OP in that I think FF will be back in the not too distant future. For me, FF are the manifestation of all that is bad in this country. They're incompetent, dodgy and highly corrupt but the sad thing is that in their 13 year stint in the dail, they were quite honest about their lack of honesty.

We all knew what was going on at the races in Galway just as it was no secret that St Paddies day was being milked for expenses. Also, anyone who cared to look would have seen clues that the banks and developers were very cosy with the powers that be. Yet in spite of all of that, FF have been the dominant party in Ireland since the states inception with only occasional breaks when their policies lead to the generational economic meltdown that is currently with us and I have no doubt, will be along again in 20-25 years.

Why is this so? Well I think the reason is voting habits combined with the fact that chancers seem to be admired in this country. When I hear some people give out about politicians acting the maggot, I wonder if the reason is genuine outrage at abuse of public or a jealous feeling that they themselves can't get away with the same.

The next election will be interesting.

johngalway

blorg wrote: »

It was a by-election, so there was only one seat. FF went from fourth to second; had it been a general election they would have certainly have got a seat. Labour simply repeated their GE performance with a first place; that a party can end up with two seats in this way does not suggest they would get two in a GE.

What's so certain about it? The so called "big guns" don't run in by elections, parties put forward second, third etc line candidates, or smaller parties run "also rans" from previous elections.

blorg

I meant had that been a general election, with that result, Fianna Fail would have picked up the second seat. A party that scrapes in with the fourth seat in a four seater would not be _expected_ to win in any by-election.

I'm not a supporter, by the way, have never voted for them ever and would be happy to see them disappear for good. But it was a good result for them and other parties need to pay attention to it.

fat__tony

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Do you have some inside information? I would love to hear it! . . .

I find it disturbing that you continue to support and be an active member of a party which has brought the country to economic ruin.

One can only presume you have a safe, cushy job completely unaffected by the current economic climate.

I bet you aren't in negative equity either.

Voodoo_rasher

have an immensely long 'half-life. Its toxic imho for the forseeable future, though regrettably its still lodged in the hearts and minds of plenty - hopefully nobody who is near or dear to me.

They're too 'toxic for THORP!:pac:

Pawwed Rig

fat__tony wrote: »

I find it disturbing that you continue to support and be an active member of a party which has brought the country to economic ruin.

It is a phenomenon we see throughout the world; corrupt leaders retain a level of support despite the problems they caused. You can see it in places such as the Philippines where the family of Marcos still have alot of power despite using the finances of the country as their own slush fund, Saddam still has his loyalists, people fought to the death for Gaddaffi up until the very end, Berlusconi keeps getting re-elected, Putin is still as popular as ever. Bad as some of these people seem NONE of them (barring Marcos) bankrupted their country as much as Fianna Fail did.

People vote based on their own local selfishness and not for the good of the country as a whole. I have met lots of people who have 'always voted for Fianna Fail' for reasons such as X TD got my father planning permission for his house, X TD sorted out the road, X TD got funding for the local school. The evidence of this really shines to the fore when you look at people like Heal Rae who NEVER had the good of the country in his head but was looking after his little fiefdom in Kerry. I won't even mention Lowry.

This kind of cronyism and admiration for the cute whore is really engrained in the Irish culture. I dream of the day when we will vote for the best person for the job rather than the guy who 'sorted out me Da' or the hereditary title that we seem to accept in large parts of the country.

doc_17

Not toxic anymore? The party that wrecked the country? I will never vote for FF until everyone of them have left politics after delivering a grovelling apology to the Irish people and their unborn children for leaving the debt of corrupt criminals hanging around our neck.

Credit Controller

FF are blamed for it all because nobody wants to take any personal responsibility. I am in negitive equity on two properties but nobody forced me to buy them. Nobody was complaining when the prices were going up. If the international economy had not crashed they would still be in power. They got so much wrong but nobody in the current gov was calling a halt.

The current FG and Labour gov only got in because people were voting for anyone but FF. They have rowed back on all the promises they made and have followed the exact policies FF said were necesary. FF will be back in power because they current gov are proving they are no better.

Noreen1

Fianna Fail are still toxic in the eyes of a very large section of the electorate.

However, since FG/Labour appear to be intent on following the same policies, I predict that they will also be toxic to the electorate by the time the next GE comes around.

Whether the electorate choose the least toxic option when voting, or swing to the left, or vote independents/new political party is still all to play for.

Certainly in the last election, quite a few people in this neck of the woods voted for the person they disliked the least, rather than the person/party they actively supported.

Personally, I have a sneaking suspicion that the "leftist" parties and Independents will see a rise in support, and will probably end up in a coalition Government.
If FG/Labour lose a significant amount of support (very probable, msot parties do in a recession), and FF only gain a small amount of support,(hopefully) then there are very interesting times ahead.

Personally, I will never vote for FF again while there is even one TD remaining in the leadership who had anything to do with the mismanagement of this Country. That is a measure of how toxic I believe them to be.

On the other hand, if a new and reformed group of candidates were to come to the forefront, then I would look at their manifesto, and try to be objective..

Son Of A Vidic

Credit Controller wrote: »

FF are blamed for it all because nobody wants to take any personal responsibility.

Reading your post, I think the above comment must refer to people like you then. You basically fell on your own sword and you also bought the illusion that was being peddled here for many years. If you consciously made your decisions and ignored the risks then you are correct in accepting responsibility for your actions. But many, many people were fooled unfortunately and personally I don't blame them for this. Some people undoubtedly behaved in a very reckless manner and have no right to complain now. But many were tricked into buying the illusion.

I returned during the 'Tiger' and couldn't believe how some people had lost the plot completely. I remember being nearly beheaded when I pointed out is was merely a credit boom, an illusion and not tangible. I bought 1 house and got a 90% mortgage, several banks were offering us 135% mortgages at the time. My wife and I were on very good money and we were harassed by several institutions for several months. They must have tried every possible bait to win our custom. Thankfully we could see the long term picture and see past their bullshít. So when you speak of 'personal responsibility' just be clear it is yourself and people like you that you speak of.

Regarding Fianna Fail, I have no doubt they will return unfortunately. Judging the current 'showers' U-turns and weasel words so far, they're already doing Fianna Fail proud. Another poster said they will last two terms and I would tend to agree with that assumption.

Credit Controller

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Reading your post, I think the above comment must refer to people like you then. You basically fell on your own sword and you also bought the illusion that was being peddled here for many years. If you consciously made your decisions and ignored the risks then you are correct in accepting responsibility for your actions. But many, many people were fooled unfortunately and personally I don't blame them for this. Some people undoubtedly behaved in a very reckless manner and have no right to complain now. But many were tricked into buying the illusion.

I returned during the 'Tiger' and couldn't believe how some people had lost the plot completely. I remember being nearly beheaded when I pointed out is was merely a credit boom, an illusion and not tangible. I bought 1 house and got a 90% mortgage, several banks were offering us 135% mortgages at the time. My wife and I were on very good money and we were harassed by several institutions for several months. They must have tried every possible bait to win our custom. Thankfully we could see the long term picture and see past their bullshít. So when you speak of 'personal responsibility' just be clear it is yourself and people like you that you speak of.

Regarding Fianna Fail, I have no doubt they will return unfortunately. Judging the current 'showers' U-turns and weasel words so far, they're already doing Fianna Fail proud. Another poster said they will last two terms and I would tend to agree with that assumption.

We were in the same position as you with banks throwing money at us which we did not want. We could have purchased 3 or 4 more properties with what we were offered but like you could see that it made no sense. I did not buy in to an illusion and did not ignore the risk. We knew the risk and decided to buy and like any investment it can go up and down. Anyone who thought they were buying an investment that could only go up were delusional and forgetting they were buying a home not an investment product.

You recognised how crazy things had got and I imagine you did not have access to some inner circle briefing on the future of the economy. Everyone had access to the same information and made their decision based on that. I still believe that everyone has to take responsibility for their own actions.

That shower as you refer to them are very quickly proving they are even more incompetent than FF as they slate all the FF policies then lie to get power then get in and implement the same policies as FF. At election time we will have a choice of FF or FG with labour and some independents. The rest are irrelevant and dangerous. This shower might last through one more election but no further.

goose2005

Manach wrote: »

Politics is a matter of balance. When the current government starts to behave in a regal manner, believing it is right as a matter of course (Mr Shatter and his referenda), some form of counter-balancing opposition forms. Hopefully one with a centralist/conservative base.

But the govt already is centralist-conservative.

Corsendonk wrote: »

Apart from sending FF voters and party members to North Korea for "re-education" FF will always be toxic to a section of Irish voters no matter how they clean up their image. The danger do with the extreme anti FF hype going around is that the people that voted FF over the last 40 years having to continually listen and read that FF voters were/are stupid or sheep can easily get peoples backs up and energise them to get out and vote for FF. I suspect that some of the most rabid anti FFs when inside a poll boot actually ticked the FF candidate box in the past.

Don't forget that they're mostly old, so Harney & co. have put paid to any chance many of them had of them voting in 2021.

michael999999 wrote: »

Once the investigations into the corruption in the banks are finished, and the bankers and developers start spilling the beans to save themselves, Fianna Fail and the part they played will become apparent and the party will be finished!

The sort of person who votes FF doesn't care about that. "Sure they were all it if they had the chance" "They were creating wealth" "We all partied" "Feck the begrudgers" etc.

anymore

Credit Controller wrote: »

We were in the same position as you with banks throwing money at us which we did not want. We could have purchased 3 or 4 more properties with what we were offered but like you could see that it made no sense. I did not buy in to an illusion and did not ignore the risk. We knew the risk and decided to buy and like any investment it can go up and down. Anyone who thought they were buying an investment that could only go up were delusional and forgetting they were buying a home not an investment product.

You recognised how crazy things had got and I imagine you did not have access to some inner circle briefing on the future of the economy. Everyone had access to the same information and made their decision based on that. I still believe that everyone has to take responsibility for their own actions.

That shower as you refer to them are very quickly proving they are even more incompetent than FF as they slate all the FF policies then lie to get power then get in and implement the same policies as FF. At election time we will have a choice of FF or FG with labour and some independents. The rest are irrelevant and dangerous. This shower might last through one more election but no further.

Welcome to the site credit Controller, but I fear you are being a bit harsh on FG/labour in not allowing them a little more time to manage affairs.
And i cannot see how it is possible to be more incompetent than FF given that FF have bankrupted the country. Surely those who have done the most damage must be judged most harshly ?