50% of Greece's Debt written off

Freddie59

The Greeks protest and 50% of the debt is written off.

We do nothing and debt is piled upon us by a cartel of bankers, developers, and associated vested interests.

There's a lesson in there somewhere.....

Morlar

We may also be heading for Lisbon 3.

Mark200

Freddie59 wrote: »

The Greeks protest and 50% of the debt is written off.

We do nothing and debt is piled upon us by a cartel of bankers, developers, and associated vested interests.

There's a lesson in there somewhere.....

I think Greece would much rather be in our situation.

Freddie59

Mark200 wrote: »

I think Greece would much rather be in our situation.

Have NO debt written off......?

cowzerp

Mark200 wrote: »

I think Greece would much rather be in our situation.

Why-we're riddled with debt and paying billions to bankrupt banks.

Sykk

cowzerp wrote: »

Why-we're riddled with debt and paying billions to bankrupt banks.

We've surplus savings after payments and the countrys situation is improving. I think this was what he was referring to.

Morlar

Sykk wrote: »

We've surplus on payments and the countries situation is improving. I think this was what he was referring to.

You do know a further slash and burn budget is around the corner ? Labour have held off on announcing some of the content until after the Presidential election.

Mark200

Freddie59 wrote: »

Have NO debt written off......?

They aren't getting debt written off because they are such nice people. They are getting debt written off because the alternative is disastrous. Writing off debt is a risky thing. The banks have only agreed to it because they agree that the alternative would be much worse.

Kojak

Mark200 wrote: »

I think Greece would much rather be in our situation.

How do you figure that??

They shout and roar for a few months, and are then allowed to renege on their debt.

They are laughing at the likes of Ireland and its "goody two shoes" approach to the EU/IMF crowd.

I am pie

Yeah, right, the EU, the IMF and the ECB all looked at a few thousands Greeks throwing rocks and decided they had better give them 50 % of their bank loans.

FFS.

Greece are being allowed to enter into a managed default. Nothing at all to do with protesting on the street and everything to do with the banks realising that 50% is better than 0%. This won't be a free lunch.

danniemcq

i prefer the position we are in to greece thats for sure...

still wouldn't mind a good auld protest

occupy the dail? warmer than dame street

pajunior

We're in a far better position then Greece.

What does grind my gears though is the recapitalization fund for European banks. I wonder is there any chance of us getting some of that money since we have pumped money into ours out of our own back pocket. Unlikely but could be worth a shot if we shout enough.

seamus

Nothing to do with the protests. As said, it's a managed default. They're writing off 50% of the debt, but did you miss the part where they're being given another €100bn in loans?

Yeah, that austerity is still going to be there no matter how many protests go on.

mike65

The Greek haircut is a default they will be locked out of the markets for years to come, Ireland can at least seek to trade its way out of its hole. That said it seems fair to look at the issue of unsecured bondholders, I see no good reason why they couldn't be told to **** off to the tune of say a 33% cut

Mark200

If you really think that the heads of government, IMF officials, and heads of banks were locked up in talks all day yesterday because of a few rocks then I think you should think again.

They are worried about Greece's real economic situation. Not a few lunatic rioters.

Savman

Deadly, I'm gonna ring MBNA and tell them I'm Greek. Win!

PeterIanStaker

Ordinary Irish people will still get assraped in the coming budget no matter how "good" (ie less f00ked) we look in comparison to Greece.

Mr. Incognito

Whatever way you look at this the Euro zone is fooked.

To the man on the street it looks like the Greeks have gotten off scott free.

However,

There was no HOPE of recovering this debt. It was structured around money owed that was not substantiated by collateral. i.e Greek property and valuation collapse. So basically once the collateral is gone, its not forgiveness, its a write down to accept the basic fact that you owe us X- they were never going to get that from a defunct Greece so they have said you owe us a more manageable X that we might actually be able to milk out of you.

They'll be lucky to get half imo.

Same with Ireland- you can bandy about figures all you want but they underlying assets are not there to support the loans that were taken out from Germany. The Germans and the Politicians want to go on believing that they will make some sort of return but they won't. They will have to write down a whole chunk of debts in every Euro zone country and take the hit to the Euro which will destroy German export values but will make Euro able to compete for international manufacturing.

The problem is, ultimately we owe all this Money to China ........... **** gonna hit the fan me thinks.

ebbsy

Bottom line is that if we keep doing what we are told we will keep getting the cash. We have always sponged off the EU so nothing new there.

Probably the Chinese will snap up Greece for nowt sooner or later. They cant run themselves anyway.

Pride Fighter

A lot of people moan about the current government but in fairness they reduced the EU-IMF loans from 5.83% to 3.4% saving 1 billion a year in interest repayments and burned 5 billion euro of bondholders. Fianna Fail could do no such thing when they were in office cause they're absolutely useless.

Logical Fallacy

Freddie59 wrote: »

The Greeks protest and 50% of the debt is written off.

We do nothing and debt is piled upon us by a cartel of bankers, developers, and associated vested interests.

There's a lesson in there somewhere.....

The lesson is to think a little deeper about things before jumping to conclusions.

melekalikimaka

Pride Fighter wrote: »

A lot of people moan about the current government but in fairness they reduced the EU-IMF loans from 5.83% to 3.4% saving 1 billion a year in interest repayments and burned 5 billion euro of bondholders. Fianna Fail could do no such thing when they were in office cause they're absolutely useless.

captain assumption here.

every party would have taken the same policy, don't kid yourself otherwise. All parties in ireland are almost indentical, we'll any with any real support...

sensibleken

I am pie wrote: »

Yeah, right, the EU, the IMF and the ECB all looked at a few thousands Greeks throwing rocks and decided they had better give them 50 % of their bank loans.

FFS.

Greece are being allowed to enter into a managed default. Nothing at all to do with protesting on the street and everything to do with the banks realising that 50% is better than 0%. This won't be a free lunch.

you missed out the bit where there is a massive increase in tax evasion as the ordinary greeks dont want to put up the money for a problem not caused by them, leading to the increased likelyhood of a 0% return.

Frank Black

Pride Fighter wrote: »

A lot of people moan about the current government but in fairness they reduced the EU-IMF loans from 5.83% to 3.4% saving 1 billion a year in interest repayments and burned 5 billion euro of bondholders. Fianna Fail could do no such thing when they were in office cause they're absolutely useless.

Nope, they just happened to be in Government at the time the decision was taken - nothing to do with the superior negotiating powers of Mr Kenny and friends - everything to do with the situation in Greece.

death1234567

Pride Fighter wrote: »

A lot of people moan about the current government but in fairness they reduced the EU-IMF loans from 5.83% to 3.4% saving 1 billion a year in interest repayments and burned 5 billion euro of bondholders.

Nonsense. The current government achieved neither of those things, don;t believe the propaganda. Our EU overlords reduced our interest rate in line with the reduction for Greece and Portugal (as was inevitable). They also let us burn €5 billion euro worth of bondholders but it was their decision not ours.

Fianna Fail could do no such thing when they were in office cause they're absolutely useless.

They'd have gotten those same reductions from our EU overlords. The current government is following the exact plan laid out by the Fianna Fáil government. Its the same circus, different clowns.

Triangla

black francis wrote: »

Nope, they just happened to be in Government at the time the decision was taken - nothing to do with the superior negotiating powers of Mr Kenny and friends - everything to do with the situation in Greece.

Agreed, they had nowt to do with it.

Before the election it was all bravado on how they were going to demand a reduction in the bail out interest rate.

Once they got in they didn't raise it at at a European level.

Wondering why Ireland won't get a write off? Easy, Noonan has told them we will pay back every penny.

Just like Fianna Fail, this current government have only words. They are in the backseat looking out as the current takes them along.

If it goes well they'll take the credit and pat themselves on the back.

Anglo will be paying out €1 billion to bondholders shortly even though the bondholders themselves paid around 50 cent on the Euro in the secondary markets. Craziness.

Freddie59

ebbsy wrote: »

Bottom line is that if we keep doing what we are told we will keep getting the cash. We have always sponged off the EU so nothing new there.

Probably the Chinese will snap up Greece for nowt sooner or later. They cant run themselves anyway.

Indeed. But how much longer can we continue to borrow €18Bn a year for day to day expenses. It is unsustainable. Something has to give - and it will have to be SW and PS pay/numbers.

Can a country the size of Ireland continue to borrow €180Bn:eek: every ten years?

Scary stuff.

Freddie59

Mark200 wrote: »

They aren't getting debt written off because they are such nice people. They are getting debt written off because the alternative is disastrous. Writing off debt is a risky thing. The banks have only agreed to it because they agree that the alternative would be much worse.

Goose, gander, etc. Do it for one and the other is within it's rights to withhold payment.....if we weren't overspending by €18Bn ever year.:rolleyes:

Kasabian

I wonder will the Greeks be handing out salaries totalling around €10,000,000 a year to the people that caused their problems.

Freddie59

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

The lesson is to think a little deeper about things before jumping to conclusions.

What is there to think about?:rolleyes: Two countries in the same situation. One gets half its debt written off. The other is told to eff off (politely). We're our own worst enemies really.

Freddie59

I am pie wrote: »

a managed default.

And where is Ireland's such 'managed default'?

Gummy Panda

sensibleken wrote: »

you missed out the bit where there is a massive increase in tax evasion as the ordinary greeks dont want to put up the money for a problem not caused by them, leading to the increased likelyhood of a 0% return.

In all fairness, there has always been massive tax evasion. They even had do to a campaign years ago along the lines of "Love Greece, ask for a receipt", because if you didn't get a receipt more then likely you weren't charged VAT.

upandcumming

Morlar wrote: »

slash and burn budget

Just lol.

billymitchell

Anybody know of any good articles that could explain to me how Greece got themselves into so much sh1t?

Crazy Horse 6

Mark200 wrote: »

I think Greece would much rather be in our situation.

Yeap they'd rather be paying it all off alright. We are a nation of sheep and we deserve the beating we are going to be taking for the next 10-20 years.

Thrill

billymitchell wrote: »

Anybody know of any good articles that could explain to me how Greece got themselves into so much sh1t?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8508136.stm

Why is Greece in so much trouble?
Greece has been living beyond its means in recent years, and its rising level of debt has placed a huge strain on the country's economy.
The Greek government borrowed heavily and went on something of a spending spree during the past decade.
Public spending soared and public sector wages practically doubled during that time.
However, as the money flowed out of the government's coffers, tax income was hit because of widespread tax evasion.
When the global financial downturn hit, Greece was ill-prepared to cope.
Greece's budget deficit, the amount its public spending exceeds its revenues from taxation, last year was 13.6% of its gross domestic product (GDP). GDP is the value of all its goods and services. This is one of the highest in Europe and more than four times the limit under eurozone rules.
Greece's high levels of debt mean investors are wary of lending it more money, and demand a higher premium for doing so.

http://abcnews.go.com/WN/greeks-streets-violent-protests-economic-problems/story?id=10567233

A number of factors led to Greece's economic disaster. For more than a generation, Greece has been lax over its spending, paying out salaries on the government dime, with huge holiday bonuses.


Many employees were paid as though they'd worked a 14-month year, instead of 12. That extra money gave many Greeks a road to early retirement, for some even in their 50s.
And tax evasion was not only accepted but embraced by much of the population.

.

stovelid

Freddie59 wrote: »

There's a lesson in there somewhere.....

Go out and protest instead of moaning on boards about other people not protesting?

I am pie

Freddie59 wrote: »

And where is Ireland's such 'managed default'?

Why would we want one ? What is you think we'd get out of it ?

If your labouring under the misunderstanding that somehow the Greeks won't be subject to extremely challenging budget cuts as part of this default then you're just plain wrong.

Man on Fire

Do we riot now or after........
http://youtu.be/L5ntfgdk-xk

billymitchell

Thrill wrote: »

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8508136.stm




http://abcnews.go.com/WN/greeks-streets-violent-protests-economic-problems/story?id=10567233







.

Cheers for that. So it looks like they had their own version of Fianna fail in government. Must read up a bit on the power of unions over there or why the hell the spent so bloody much.

I wonder is there a Greek equivalent to Eddie Hobbes or Dave McWilliams?

mike65

The Greek Finance dept used to fly a helicopter over Athens and map the swimming pools and such like, then they'd check the tax compliance of the registered owner of the property. Its that kind of place.

billymitchell

mike65 wrote: »

The Greek Finance dept used to fly a helicopter over Athens and map the swimming pools and such like, then they'd check the tax compliance of the registered owner of the property. Its that kind of place.

But thats the kind of thing you would expect our lot to be at

mikom

billymitchell wrote: »

But thats the kind of thing you would expect our lot to be at

We have potholes in the west that could be mistaken for swimming pools.
Could get very confusing.

Freddie59

I am pie wrote: »

Why would we want one ? What is you think we'd get out of it ?

If your labouring under the misunderstanding that somehow the Greeks won't be subject to extremely challenging budget cuts as part of this default then you're just plain wrong.

Look at the posts above you. There is a description of Greece as 'living beyond its means' and 'widespread tax evasion'. Is ireland any different?

For living beyond your means write an €18Bn deficit - something which everyone is ignoring. We need the same budgetary measures as Greece. And they WILL happen - despite the protestations of the Left.

The difference will be that Greece will have had its debt slashed by 50% - but Ireland won't.

melekalikimaka

Freddie59 wrote: »

Something has to give - and it will have to be SW and PS pay/numbers.

QUOTE]

BINGO

humanji

Freddie59 wrote: »

Look at the posts above you. There is a description of Greece as 'living beyond its means' and 'widespread tax evasion'. Is ireland any different?

For living beyond your means write an €18Bn deficit - something which everyone is ignoring. We need the same budgetary measures as Greece. And they WILL happen - despite the protestations of the Left.

The difference will be that Greece will have had its debt slashed by 50% - but Ireland won't.

You're underestimating how corrupt Greece is. It makes Ireland look honest. We are not even close to being in the same position as them. They can't pay their debts and get a 50% reduction. But they still can't pay their debts and are screwed for decades. We can pay our debts, but it'll be painful for a hell of a lot less time.

Celly Smunt

Greece is pretty much falling into prostitution,i don't want to be no prostitute so we're better off.

Yakult

I smell a protest comi................. Ah never mind, forgot this was Ireland. We'll just sit back and take it up the ass without any lube.

blackwhite

sensibleken wrote: »

you missed out the bit where there is a massive increase in tax evasion as the ordinary greeks dont want to put up the money for a problem not caused by them, leading to the increased likelyhood of a 0% return.

The Greek deficit is primarily due to the Government spending well above what it was taking in, and not due to bank debts.
The Greek government spent the best part of the past decade hiding it's debts, and under-reporting its expenditure. The Greek people have been living off the benefits of this state-conducted fraud.
One of the factors that lead to the Greek deficit was large-scale and widespread tax evasion, coupled with the government showing little interest in enforcing its tax laws. Ordinary Greeks not paying their taxes was a large part of the problem.
The Greek have shown an amazing ability to blame everyone but themselves for their own problems, and their protests are because they are now being asked to actually foot some of the bill for their own excesses.

mikom

Was in Athens about 3 weeks ago.
Absolute shithole, grubby, graffiti daubed, not a cut of work in most of the moped driving leather jacket wearing posers over there, others living under motorway underpasses, stinks to high heaven, dogs flat on footpaths..... I could go on....
They are lucky they have history as they have fuck all else that appeals to me.
Give me Ireland any day

billymitchell

mikom wrote: »

We have potholes in the west that could be mistaken for swimming pools.
Could get very confusing.

Shirley when they were flying down to the Galway tents every year in teh Govt helicopter, they would have seen those and done something about it. I dunno, filled them in with our money

From the wikipedia

Greece has the EU's lowest Corruption Perceptions Index, Index of Economic Freedom and Global Competitiveness Index, ranking 78th, 88th and 90th in the world respectively. Corruption, together with the associated issue of poor standards of tax collection, is widely regarded as both a key cause of the current troubles in the economy and a key hurdle in terms of overcoming the country's debt problem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Greece