suzuki DF6 number of issues help please ;P

MarcinG

Hi.

Don't have to much of experience with it so i want to ask few things:

1
there is no water coming through hole at the bottom of the engine housing (should be a stream I understand?) i took apart water pump and it is looking rather ok (so is the clearance from bottom of the shaft to the pump). so:
how to check is the pump working without connecting it to the rest of the engine?
how to check pipe leading from pump to the engine for congestion (same for bit going from engine out) - can i just spray water through it (which direction?) without damaging something?
Little rubber gasket under the pump plate looks cracked but i dont see how that can affect it (no water found inside shaft).

2
if engine never stopped on high revs or never got too warm can i assume that it is not damaged by overheating caused by fault 1?

3
engine tends to chock on lowest revs
already adjusted iddle speed (just a bit maybe not enough?)
Plug looks ok (proper gap, rather clean want to buy new one anyway). on higher revs is ok.

4
how to fill oil into gear case - are you using big syringe or something?

thank you

Ps gasket which is cracked has a part number 17472-91J00 and costs around 3Euro. Problem is to find someone having them in stock (minimum order from dealer is 25 euro ant this is a 1000% of its price . any ideas who might have it in dublin? (AFAIK main dealer is in cork?).

fergal.b

Hi marcinG, I haven't worked on that engine before but a few things you can check are more or less the same.

1) Try using a syringe on the pee hole and see if you can suck up any water if not squirt some hot water in it so it will melt any build up of salt by push and pulling on the syringe, sometimes I also use a break cable from a bike and push it up into the hole to help clear it.
As you had the impeller out did you put a new one in ? and if so is the key way in place and did you replace the gasket sometimes the water can be forced into the leg if the gasket is gone also check that the water tube from the pump is lined up with the engine.

2) If the engine got hot check the cylinders and see if there is any water in them that will tell you if the head or gasket is gone.

3) Could be any number of things from dirty fuel or filter, air mix, might just need a tune up.

4) when you buy the gear oil ask for the tube that screws into the gearcase and the oil can then just feed in from the bottom screw on the gearcase.

Try http://www.marineparts.ie/ for that part.

MarcinG

1) Try using a syringe on the pee hole and see if you can suck up any water

nothing. i also tried (saw on yt) thin coper wire and played in the hole a little (while engine working) - nothing changed. some fumes getting out + i can fell blasting air i think i can see water mist but it is so fine that you will not fell it.

if not squirt some hot water in it so it will melt any build up of salt by push and pulling on the syringe, sometimes I also use a break cable from a bike and push it up into the hole to help clear it.

engine is about 3-5 yrs old and has not been used in salt water for at least last 2 years. I might use break cable (just finished my bike - plenty of all cables around so water/air under bigger pressure (compressor/ pressurized garden container) isn't great idea?

Ps. i forced some water (hose "pistol" pressure) into "intake hole (while engine not running). i think i got more steam/fumes (once i started the engine) through pee hole but i switched engine right away (it is apart now).

As you had the impeller out did you put a new one in ? and if so is the key way in place

no didn't I'm still trying to figure what is wrong most parts look ok.
i think that problem is somewhere around engine itself and flushing water passage may help but i'm affraid just to force water in before confirming that it is safe to do so.

and did you replace the gasket

nope unable to buy one from shelf (if i do not want to pay like 40-50 euro for it minimum order from suzuki around 25 euro + dealer fee, shipping etc..

sometimes the water can be forced into the leg if the gasket is gone also check that the water tube from the pump is lined up with the engine.

found no water inside leg. If i turn shaft rubber propeler spins ok.
Under water pump housing there is a flat metal strip and under it there is a gasket which i guess need to be replaced but if that would be the cause of problem entire leg would be full of water i guess?

2) If the engine got hot check the cylinders and see if there is any water in them that will tell you if the head or gasket is gone.

it doesn't

3) Could be any number of things from dirty fuel or filter, air mix, might just need a tune up.

what else apart from adjusting idle revs can i do in to "tune up" ?

edit:
some pictures of engine :
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-SlucKlpGj58/TqgcE2W4FGI/AAAAAAAAAG0/_guYLzMx0y0/s800/P1000149.JPG
gasket i mentioned broken is under metal plate on the last picture (is is thinner than bike tube).

Ps.
manual mentioning greasing leg in two places :
there is nipple at the bottom part of the leg but it also mentioning greasing those:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Db5SyYU3HaA/Tqgw3l6tn-I/AAAAAAAAAHk/bzg_4yBH5lw/s800/P1000159.JPG
what to use to force grease in? mu grease gun doesn't work on it.

ISAW

MarcinG wrote: »

Hi.

i have a DF 5 i assume is similar. i have an attachment for flushing the engine. There is a screw under the engine and you put the hose attachment in there.

http://store.brownspoint.com/df4.asp
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SUZUKI-Outboard-FULL-SERVICE-MANUALS-2-225HP-1988-2003-/160538901113?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_Boat_Engines_EngineParts_SM&hash=item2560dd3a79

breghall

Connect a hose to the water tube running up the inside of the housing once you have the leg off and flush out. it won't cause any harm , and if you don't get a strong tell tale then then you have a blockage , if you do get a strong tell tale then I'd suspect the impellor is the issue and would revert to fergals comments about the keyway etc.

fergal.b

On some engines I was able to attach a drill to the shaft making sure not to damage the splines place the lower leg in a bucket of water and make sure the drill is turning the impeller the right way,and see if the water comes out the top of the pump, I don't recommend this but if all else fails

There is a channel above the pee hole thats looks like this so I find by twisting the break cable you can get up and around easier than a pice of wire also I find the cable holds onto the dirt better.



Impeller kit
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Genuine-Suzuki-Water-Pump-Repair-Kit-DF4-DF5-DF6-engines-/280757819002?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_BoatEquipment_Accessories_SM&hash=item415e78567a#ht_607wt_928



.

breghall

fergal.b wrote: »

On some engines I was able to attach a drill to the shaft making sure not to damage the splines place the lower leg in a bucket of water and make sure the drill is turning the impeller the right way,and see if the water comes out the top of the pump, I don't recommend this but if all else fails .

I must remember this one myself ,neat little trick Fergal.

MarcinG

Just edited posts for clear view:

ISAW:

DF 4,5 and 6 are same (I have been told by someone that they are effectively same engine - only air intake or sth is smaller or somehow adjusted in 5 and 4 version.)

Ps you just killed me with this ebay link of full service kit for 46f.
I spent more on random oils..... will keep link handy for next year.
Thank you.

fergal.b wrote: »

On some engines I was able to attach a drill to the shaft making sure not to damage the splines place the lower leg in a bucket of water and make sure the drill is turning the impeller the right way,and see if the water comes out the top of the pump, I don't recommend this but if all else fails

this was my first thought. But i think that no drill (all my drills apart from battery operated ones has SDS chucks) has a speed great enough to run it in proper way - but if it works then i may try (if all other stuff won't work)

breghall wrote: »

Connect a hose to the water tube running up the inside of the housing once you have the leg off and flush out. it won't cause any harm , and if you don't get a strong tell tale then then you have a blockage , if you do get a strong tell tale then I'd suspect the impellor is the issue and would revert to fergals comments about the keyway etc.

i got no water at all. i used garden hose and syringe as funnel.
If i will try to force water in "normal" direction - all water comes back through leg. If i will force it in reverse direction then again it comes out through leg rather than pipe. I guess i will try to clean pipe from bottom end with gear cable - if it will not help i will try to take it further apart.

Didn’t help and I need some clue about how this actually works:
If I’m right then:

Pumps suck water in and pump it through pipe marked with left blue dart on the picture:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-XRgnbva7F-Q/Tqkz4itMK9I/AAAAAAAAAJ0/tzHB_-mmxdA/s500/P1000164.JPG

then water goes through area marked with other blue darts and get out of the engine by place marked with red dart. Green dart shows way to pee hole.

So:
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-nmwG66fB48M/Tqkz4lGqE1I/AAAAAAAAAJ8/_D4QkMc0Ayo/s500/P1000166.JPG

blue – water intake?
Green – exhaust?
Red – water out?


Is this engine badly cloght by the way it looks like? :
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-HugWZ22BajA/Tqkz47X7gdI/AAAAAAAAAJ4/DHab1LfvPow/s500/P1000167.JPG

now if I’m right how the hell should water go out through pee hole if easier and more natural way is to get pushed down through leg along with fumes? I would get the idea if water out from 2nd picture would be connected somehow to pee hole directly, but it isn’t.
More I’m thinking about more I think this is just running fine and pee hole is just an emergency thing or some parts are missing – can someone confirm my way of thinking?

breghall

I would definetely try to clean the passage that carries the water from the pump housing up inside to the power head. If used in salt water it may be jammed by salt water deposits building up in there.

MarcinG

breghall wrote: »

I would definetely try to clean the passage that carries the water from the pump housing up inside to the power head. If used in salt water it may be jammed by salt water deposits building up in there.

do you mean this metal pipe going up from pump to the bottom of the engine?
is absolutely clean.
i simply see no way for water to come out through this pee hole rather than through bottom of the leg.

fergal.b

Just a thought did you check the thermostat to see if it's opening and closing.

MarcinG

fergal.b wrote: »

Just a thought did you check the thermostat to see if it's opening and closing.

Is it in place marked by red dart?
do i just fill hole marked by red one with hot water and see will it disappear after while?

My basic understanding of system is:
pump pomps water up to the engine and then:

engine cold:

water not coming through engine so goes through little relief hole in the rubber gasket at the top of metal pipe.

engine warm: thermostat open water flow through engine and goes out by red hole.

But happen to the water afterwards? in my opinion it is just leaks down the leg and gets pushed out by exhaust.

For pee hole to work entire top part of the leg would have to be filled with water.

unless the pee hole should be only working when engine is at great revs so pressure of water coming through is bigger (more water in the leg) and so is pressure of exhaust gases may overcome gravity and push water out through pee hole.
And if this is true why manual asks to stop engine ASAP if there is no water coming through it at the very instant of starting the engine?

fergal.b

There should be a good flow at tick over speed, it looks from the photo that it got very hot at some stage.

The thermostat is here NO 17 so I don't think you will be able to see it open either way you should still have a flow of water from the pee hole so 1 it's not pumping 2 it's blocked or 3 the water is escaping and going down the leg or out the exhaust.:D



Also check the grommet at the bottom and top of the water pipe for a good fit No 2 and 7

MarcinG

fergal.b wrote: »

3 the water is escaping and going down the leg or out the exhaust.:D

yep this is my guess. further i have feeling that this is the way it should work?
take this picture:



blue arrows shows where water would go if pump is running (let's just say it does).
Red arrow shows where water would escape from engine (my guess)
so tell me (mind you it is horizontal on picture, but vertical in real world)
how would this water got to pee hole - through this little gap marked green on picture? and why would it do so instead of simple leaking down the leg?

only thing crossing my mind is some sort of "cyclone" effect created inside by exhaust pressure making water spinning around rather than just dripping? - why would they do it ?
i would 10000% agree if i would find a little tube going from hole in engine to the pee hole - but there is nothing like it... i'm confised.

Also check the grommet at the bottom and top of the water pipe for a good fit No 2 and 7

Part 7 has a hole (line is pointing at it) which (if i'm correct) releases
excess water when thermostat closed.

my next option is to remove thermostat and see does it work. Hell of work for little engine then if it does try to put it together and immerse leg in the water in way that exhaust will not be in water but intake for pump will.
Then run it and see is there any water coming through exhaust?
or blow air through pee hole and see will it come out through pimp intake...


hmm but i need to go to college now so i'll work on it on friday. thanks anyway i'll certainly update thread later.

fergal.b

Most of the water will go out with the exhaust the pee hole just lets a bit out so you can tell that the engine is getting cooled.
I think on your engine the water goes up through the horseshoe channel on the left and out through the exhaust in the horseshoe with a small bit going across the engine and out through one of the holes on the left maybe this one. It might be worth your while putting a straight edge across where the gasket sits on the engine and the leg to see if it warped with the heat at any point.

MarcinG

fergal.b wrote: »

Most of the water will go out with the exhaust the pee hole just lets a bit out so you can tell that the engine is getting cooled.

problem is manual states clearly that you have to see water coming through (and this for me requires quite strong flow...

I think on your engine the water goes up through the horseshoe channel on the left and out through the exhaust in the horseshoe with a small bit going across the engine and out through one of the holes on the left maybe this one.

yes. i took it apart further on and it is all as we thought.
horseshoe>straight up to thermostat>through bit of engine > out by that hole.
Now i checked thermostat and it seems to be working ok.
channels are ok (water coming through as i checked with syringe.

In lack of better ideas i ordered gasket for pump, impeller itself and will see how will it affect this cooling. (i guess it won't but i will have peace of mind that it is all refurbished).
+ i'll replace plugs and clean carb (chocking on low revs).

It might be worth your while putting a straight edge across where the gasket sits on the engine and the leg to see if it warped with the heat at any point.

if you mean gasket in between leg and bottom of the housing (i guess there is anther one in between the engine and housing from inside housing) it looks 100% ok.

parts shall arive at tue. So i think i may post line or two next week (but still don't see how this pee hole works and guy at marina couldn't explain it to me either..

MarcinG

hi. Mystery solved.

Hole which i took for pee hole has unknown purpouse (additional exhaust?)
And real one was missed by me (as I didn't thought that it may have more than 1 hole) was elsewhere pic:


big one in the middle at the bottom is "false" one. and real one is a little nipple higher up in between two screws (hex and philips ones) and it was clogged by some sort of grease mixed with sand - very same color as leg)
Thanks for help.
PS. I adjusted low revs and may get back in case that it is still chocking.

Raymond61

Hi guys.

I am new here, but I am having cooling problem with my suzuki df6. The water is coming out of the pee hole but only cold even if the motor is running very hot. I have changed the thermostat which was broken butthat didnt change a thing, the pump is relatively new and the water comes out of the pee hole with good stream. Still the motor is overheating. Can enyone help me with some good ideas, it will be appreciated.

Raymond61

MarcinG

do not expect hot water from there (water fills gap between engine and shaft as on my pictures - it would take serious temp to heat it up to the level that you will feel it). How do you know that engine is overheating? Is it shutting down? Or just warm (touch bonnet of your car after journey) ? If just warm i wouldn't worry.

Raymond61

Hi, thank you for your reply.
Yes it shuts down. The only way to keep it going is to take the plastic hood off, then I risk to get water into the carb breathing. I have to wait 10-15 min to cool it off then I have to pull it several times to get it back to service. Do you have any ideas?

Raymond61

Raymond61

Hi, thank you for your reply.
Yes it shuts down. The only way to keep it going is to take the plastic hood off, then I risk to get water into the carb breathing. I have to wait 10-15 min to cool it off then I have to pull it several times to get it back to service. Do you have any ideas?

Raymond61

fergal.b

Raymond61 wrote: »

Hi, thank you for your reply.
Yes it shuts down. The only way to keep it going is to take the plastic hood off, then I risk to get water into the carb breathing. I have to wait 10-15 min to cool it off then I have to pull it several times to get it back to service. Do you have any ideas?

Raymond61

Do you have water coming out with the exhaust.



.

MarcinG

Clogged water pass within engine? Posibly a salt buildup of sand/weed?

Raymond61

Hi, I cant tell if water comes out of the exhaust, but this motor has only been in fresh water all of its time. Where is the exhaust coming out, from the leg or straight from the engine?

MarcinG

Cant remember now but i think it comes down the shaft.

fergal.b

Raymond61 wrote: »

Hi, I cant tell if water comes out of the exhaust, but this motor has only been in fresh water all of its time. Where is the exhaust coming out, from the leg or straight from the engine?

It usually comes out from the centre of the propeller, are you running the engine on muffs ? The pee hole only tells you that water is getting to the engine not that it's circulating the engine.




.

Raymond61

Yes that is the problem, I cant tell if the water is circulating the engine or not. Tryed to take the thermostat out but still had heating problems. There was like no water came to the thermostat it was totally dry when I took it out.

fergal.b

Raymond61 wrote: »

Yes that is the problem, I cant tell if the water is circulating the engine or not. Tryed to take the thermostat out but still had heating problems. There was like no water came to the thermostat it was totally dry when I took it out.

Sounds like a blockage so, I find the inner cable from a bicycle brake cable works well for poking out you can also attach it to a drill or screw gun to help dig out any tough ones, poke all the holes you can find and flush with water in a syringe or a washing up bottle failing that you might have to take off the water jacket.




.

Raymond61

Yes brake cable looks like a good idea. I will try that, thank you guys very much for your help, best regards from Iceland.