When is a panel too old?

seosamh

Is it worthwhile replacing a panel simply because it is too old. It may still serve the needs of the homeowner adequately but new panels have moved on to become more user friendly and with more features. Is there a case to be made for trading up? Reliability? Features? Ease of use? Flexibility?

KoolKid

Yes if over 10 years old & affordable.

Jnealon

No. If it's a bells only alarm and it works then leave it be.

altor

seosamh wrote: »

Is it worthwhile replacing a panel simply because it is too old. It may still serve the needs of the homeowner adequately but new panels have moved on to become more user friendly and with more features. Is there a case to be made for trading up? Reliability? Features? Ease of use? Flexibility?

If there are no problems with the control panel then I cant see the need to change it. It would be a different story if there was.

KoolKid

Can you tell us what system you have at the moment Seosamh?
We can then explain the extra features a new systems would give you and also give you an indication of price. Whether its worthwhile is your choice then. Its really how you look at an alarm. If you just want it to do the basics then no. If its another appliance , with added features then you probably may want to upgrade. After all not everyone waits for their TV to give up before changing / upgrading.

altor

Its a Kestral Merlin going by other posts. If it works why change it. Different story I agree if he does want extra features.

KoolKid

Big difference between Kestral Merlin & whats out now.
Ive attached PDFs on the Siemens & the Quantum. If its features yoiur after they are the way to go.
Have to say , I am loving the new Siemens Comfort Keypads.

altor

Very like the ATS Keypad.

Here is the HKC Securewave Keypad.

KoolKid

altor wrote: »

Very like the ATS Keypad.

Much better, believe me.

altor

KoolKid wrote: »

Much better, believe me.

In fairness to the ATS the newer keypad is user friendly

KoolKid

A good panel , but one I just don't like.

altor

They have done a lot with the programming to try make it engineer friendly but it is still a time bomb.
I cant believe the NX10 was out in 98 in America and is only out here now
There wire free keypad has some range.

KoolKid

altor wrote: »

There wire free keypad has some range.

Yeah Paddy was tring it out in City West & got to the far end of the car park.

seosamh

Hi,
Yes it is an 18 year old Kestrel Merlin and it is working okay. Replaced a fuse that was blown and am upgrading the bell box to give the appearance of a state of the art alarm system inside!
Well the panel is fine in that it is a three bedroom house and with a new extension so really there are only 3 zones. Unfortunately the whole extension (3 velux, 1 window, patio door) with two upstairs windows are all wired on one zone. So pinpointing a bad sensor may be trouble later.

The features I would like are
- Exit/Entry through the patio door but unfortunately the door is on that big zone I mentioned. Maybe I could make all that zone Entry/Exit and add a PIR as a workaround.
- with a new panel I could have a wireless sensor on the patio door and use a fob to set/unset the panel without returning to the hall.
- a new panel would be allow GSM and I could get text/call if the alarm triggers.
- I don't know if the old panel could handle it but a smoke alarm would be handy.
The extra cost of replacing the panel ~160 euro and ~120euro for the GSM board (HKC, when it becomes available) is a bit pricey for what are 'nice to have' features and if the old panel keeps going, well I could hold onto it for another while.

altor

Depending on the amount of cores in the cable to this zone you could get the patio door on the entry/exit zone. A quick bridge on your system would allow the use of a key fob for arming/disarming the panel. You can add a GSM to your system and trigger it off the external bell if you only want notification of the alarm activating.

Jnealon

If you're happy with what you've got the leave it.
I would check the cabling to see if you could wire up more zones but I would not spend any more money on the panel ie quickbridges etc

seosamh

altor wrote: »

Depending on the amount of cores in the cable to this zone you could get the patio door on the entry/exit zone. A quick bridge on your system would allow the use of a key fob for arming/disarming the panel. You can add a GSM to your system and trigger it off the external bell if you only want notification of the alarm activating.

Thanks Altor, so there is hope! That idea for the patio door is great, I think it is 6 core, so the 4 spare I was thinking of using for a PIR but now the entry/exit is a better idea.
Is there much involved in creating a bridge to use a fob? Where to start?
And for GSM is there one you would recommend?

altor

seosamh wrote: »

Thanks Altor, so there is hope! That idea for the patio door is great, I think it is 6 core, so the 4 spare I was thinking of using for a PIR but now the entry/exit is a better idea.
Is there much involved in creating a bridge to use a fob? Where to start?
And for GSM is there one you would recommend?

All you need to do is identify the zone the cable is on. Using two of the cores, you will need to join say GREEN/GREEN WHITE/WHITE in the sensors on the loop. When you get to the patio door you will connect these into that sensor. Back at the panel connect these in series with the front door circuit. Depending on how your original patio is connected, you will either need to join the cables together or put the colours together to close off or continue the circuit.

The quickbridge will need one of your zones programmed as a key to allow the fob to work correctly. If you dont have engineer access to the alarm then you may need to default the system to set this up.

This GSM will work on most alarm system including your alarm.

These are just options but as Jnealon has said an upgrade would be the better option in the long run.

seosamh

I took your advice Altor and wired up the patio door as you suggested and it has worked fine.
Although tonight my neighbour phoned me to tell me my alarm was going off. Luckily I was nearby and dashed back. But what could have been the problem? No sign of anyone trying to get in and the panel reported an entry/exit triggering. The sensor on the hall door is quite old, so old in fact, I was thumping it the other day to see if I could get it to go off but it wouldn't.
Maybe I should change the sensor contact on the hall door. The one on the patio is new. Or should I begin to suspect the 18 yr old panel?
Also the HKC bell I have put up to replace the old one is really loud. I might have to get the ladder out and open it to turn the volume down.

altor

seosamh wrote: »

I took your advice Altor and wired up the patio door as you suggested and it has worked fine.
Although tonight my neighbour phoned me to tell me my alarm was going off. Luckily I was nearby and dashed back. But what could have been the problem? No sign of anyone trying to get in and the panel reported an entry/exit triggering. The sensor on the hall door is quite old, so old in fact, I was thumping it the other day to see if I could get it to go off but it wouldn't.
Maybe I should change the sensor contact on the hall door. The one on the patio is new. Or should I begin to suspect the 18 yr old panel?
Also the HKC bell I have put up to replace the old one is really loud. I might have to get the ladder out and open it to turn the volume down.

The sensor on your hall door should be a contact so only opening and closing of the sensor should activate it.
I would replace the sensor, it has served you well if it is as old as the panel
The outside bell volume can not be adjusted up or down.

seosamh

Yeah, I think I will retire that sensor alright.

As for the volume control, in the same way you can control the strobe light from always on to alternating between the two light and always off so too, I believe the sound can be controlled. There are three pins and depending on how you cover them, the sound can be standard or loud. Is that right?
I don't want to climb the ladder and find there is no volume control.

altor

seosamh wrote: »

Yeah, I think I will retire that sensor alright.

As for the volume control, in the same way you can control the strobe light from always on to alternating between the two light and always off so too, I believe the sound can be controlled. There are three pins and depending on how you cover them, the sound can be standard or loud. Is that right?
I don't want to climb the ladder and find there is no volume control.

I will save you the climb, there is no control for the volume on the external bell.

seosamh

Following on from before, I used 2 of the 4 spare wires in a 6 wire cable to include the patio door with the hall door on its entry/exit zone. (2 wires were already in use for the veluxes and kitchen window)

Then last night I was watching Panorama about burglaries in which one break-in was done by removing slates from the roof, enough to allow the burglar to slip in and then he entered the room by a hatch door in the ceiling. THis put me thinking, that this is a quieter way of gaining entry, no glass breaking required. More probable I suppose is entry through forcing the patio door open. Anyway it convinced me that I should try putting in a PIR in the livingroom.

So back to my cable, can I use the two wires that I have used for the patio door for a PIR as well and then the final 2 wires for power to the PIR. Then can I put the PIR on the entry/exit zone with the hall door and patio door?

Thanks.

KoolKid

The PiR should be on its own zone by right. Have you a spare zone in the panel?

seosamh

KoolKid wrote: »

The PiR should be on its own zone by right. Have you a spare zone in the panel?

Yes I think I have just one zone to spare. So those two wires can't do double-duty in the PIR and the patio door. Would the PIR need to be programmed as part of entry/exit at the panel?

KoolKid

You can put the PiR on the spare zone and apply the attribute ACCESS.

seosamh

KoolKid wrote: »

You can put the PiR on the spare zone and apply the attribute ACCESS.

Thanks. Is it necessary for the PIR to have it's own zone or is it just good practice in case it acts up and it helps to pinpoint the problem. The patio door which is beside the corner I want to put the PIR, has two wires , lets say green and yellow, going back to the panel for an ACCESS zone. Can't I just branch off this for the PIR and use two other wires to bring it power from the panel?

KoolKid

Its good practice. But not just for fault finding. The resistance of a PiR closed is higher than a contact or sensor. You can get the 3 zones seperate on a 6 core. Why would you leave them together if you have a spare zone?

seosamh

KoolKid wrote: »

Its good practice. But not just for fault finding. The resistance of a PiR closed is higher than a contact or sensor. You can get the 3 zones seperate on a 6 core. Why would you leave them together if you have a spare zone?

There is only one 6 core running around the living area of which two wires are used for the veluxes and kitchen window, recently I used another two wires for the patio on a ACCESS zone (it joins up with the Hall door 6 core, in series, at the panel) So that just leaves two wires remaining and I know I need 2 wires for power to the PIR. So that's why I was trying to get creative in getting the PIR to work without having to run another 6 core wire all the way from the panel.

KoolKid

The neg of the power can be common with one side of each zone.
I'm mobile at the moment. Ill try put a diagram together later.

KoolKid

Again I must apologise for my PS skills..:o


Using this configuration with duel end of line resistors will give you the 3 individual zones fully tampered. The zones will need to be set to duel EOL.

seosamh

KoolKid wrote: »

Again I must apologise for my PS skills..:o


Using this configuration with duel end of line resistors will give you the 3 individual zones fully tampered. The zones will need to be set to duel EOL.

This is great Koolkid, thanks. Can you just explain how dual EOL works and how the resistors are satisfying the panel so it is possible to get away with using one wire. Why two resistors?
I have the sensor contacts wired without tampers and I simply cut one wire which then is inserted into the contact and the other end coming out of the sensor and then use a piece of wire to bridge the sensor and contact. Then I select an uncut wire to pair with this at the panel to complete the circuit.
But rewiring them the way you drew would be a great way to solve this.
I don't have the engineer's code so I think I will need to reset the panel and programme the zones again.

KoolKid

seosamh wrote: »

This is great Koolkid, thanks. Can you just explain how dual EOL works and how the resistors are satisfying the panel so it is possible to get away with using one wire. Why two resistors?

Basically the system is measuring the resistence on the loop to determine the alarm condition of that zone.
One resistor is in series with the tamper & the second is across the zone.
This results in the following conclusions.
Resistence 4k7 Zone closed Tamper Closed:
The alarm sees the 4k7 resistor thats in series with the tamper but does not see the second resistor because the
zone being closed short out that resistor.
Resistence 9k4 Zone Open Tamper Closed:
The alarm sees the 4k7 resistor thats in series with the tamper but also sees the 4k7 resistor across the zone becuase the zone is now open and not shorting out the second resistor.
Resistence low or circut open:
If there is a low resistence short circut or an open circut the alarm will see neither resistors & register a tamper on that zone.
The reason you can return the zone on a single cable is because one side of each zone is a common negetive. If you meter out the continuity between each of these & negetive you will see they are all the one.

seosamh wrote: »

I have the sensor contacts wired without tampers and I simply cut one wire which then is inserted into the contact and the other end coming out of the sensor and then use a piece of wire to bridge the sensor and contact. Then I select an uncut wire to pair with this at the panel to complete the circuit.
But rewiring them the way you drew would be a great way to solve this.
I don't have the engineer's code so I think I will need to reset the panel and programme the zones again.

Where are the resistors at the moment?
Is it currently single , duel or NON EOL.

KoolKid

Apologies....:o
Just looked back over this and seen the panel you have.
Duel resistors are not an option. The configuration across the zone should still work & you would have the option to add tampers in this manner when you upgrade.

fred funk }{

I'm not sure what panel you're using but Koolkids way will only work when one side of the zone input on the panel is negative common. For example, that method won't work on HKC panels.

KoolKid

Another + for Siemens.....:D;)

seosamh

KoolKid wrote: »

Apologies....:o
Just looked back over this and seen the panel you have.
Duel resistors are not an option. The configuration across the zone should still work & you would have the option to add tampers in this manner when you upgrade.

So I ignore the tampers? How would that look in terms of your diagram? Thanks.

KoolKid

Take away the TT and the resistors. All the blacks into one side of the zone & return on the blue yellow & green as is.

altor

seosamh wrote: »

Following on from before, I used 2 of the 4 spare wires in a 6 wire cable to include the patio door with the hall door on its entry/exit zone. (2 wires were already in use for the veluxes and kitchen window)

Then last night I was watching Panorama about burglaries in which one break-in was done by removing slates from the roof, enough to allow the burglar to slip in and then he entered the room by a hatch door in the ceiling. THis put me thinking, that this is a quieter way of gaining entry, no glass breaking required. More probable I suppose is entry through forcing the patio door open. Anyway it convinced me that I should try putting in a PIR in the livingroom.

So back to my cable, can I use the two wires that I have used for the patio door for a PIR as well and then the final 2 wires for power to the PIR. Then can I put the PIR on the entry/exit zone with the hall door and patio door?

Thanks.

Before you go to all the trouble, do you have engineer access to the alarm to change the zone to allow access to this area when you come in the door ?

seosamh

No, unfortunately I don't have the engineer's code but I have the manual. There are only 5 zones so it should be easy to reprogramme after I reset the panel, right?

KoolKid

That panel would be easy enough.You will get help here if your stuck anyway.

seosamh

So the solution only works for panels like mine and if I upgrade later I can't choose a HKC panel cause it doesn't allow a common negative? I suppose I could get a wireless PIR at that stage to avoid the hassle to laying a wire. But Seimens will work alright? I recently installed a HKC hybrid and it was straigtforward enough. Do Seimens do a hybrid panel?

KoolKid

All the Siemens panels can be Hybrid.
They also have some nice features / options over HKC.
Like access, X10 and Web server.

seosamh

KoolKid wrote: »

All the Siemens panels can be Hybrid.
They also have some nice features / options over HKC.
Like access, X10 and Web server.

Sounds good. Are they comparable price-wise? I think I paid 160e for 10 zone hybrid HKC.

KoolKid

They would be yes. Wireless devices should be cheaper.

altor

seosamh wrote: »

Sounds good. Are they comparable price-wise? I think I paid 160e for 10 zone hybrid HKC.

Price wise if you do want the Web server you will be paying extra for it. Same with the X-10.

KoolKid

altor wrote: »

Same with the X-10.

X10 is standard on all Siemens panels.

altor

KoolKid wrote: »

X10 is standard on all Siemens panels.

So you don't need to buy any of the X-10 devices ?

KoolKid

The feature is standard as is wireless, but you have to buy those as well,,;)
Access is standard, but you might have to buy a mag lock:rolleyes:
Come to think of it , you have to buy sensors for the windows & doors as well.
Is that not the case with HKC then???:D:rolleyes:

fred funk }{

I'm using the siemens a lot lately and my customers think the web access is great and when a customer gets the x10 as well, it really blows them away.

The SPC 4300 is a great panel. 8 on board zones, web access and x10.

altor

KoolKid wrote: »

The feature is standard as is wireless, but you have to buy those as well,,;)
Access is standard, but you might have to buy a mag lock:rolleyes:
Come to think of it , you have to buy sensors for the windows & doors as well.
Is that not the case with HKC then???:D:rolleyes:

You make it sound like your getting something for nothing, like everything, your not