EDT lessons questions

ayumi

Im at the moment doing lessons and I have been told that I would need more then the 12 hours?
i have now 7 hours done but all I have been doing is driving on the road and signalling right or left.
I thought that EDT lessons are divided into different lessons eg lesson 5 you learn how to learn how to something different to lesson 6?
but why am I being told that these 12 hrs are introduction and i need to get a car to do more lessons?

Bobby42

Hi,
I'm nearly finished my EDT lessons.
There's different learning outcomes for each lesson. Speed management, road position, changing direction, ect.

You need to have at least three hours practice before you start, since you have seven you're good to go.

However, you need to practice in between the EDT lessons as they get progressively more challenging. You have a logbook for the EDT lessons where your instructor writes in how each lesson went. There's also a section where you're sponsor, a friend or family member who gives you lessons too, writes in about your learning.

You cant really do the EDT lessons one after the other without practice in between as you won't meet the learning outcomes of the lesson.

The last couple of lessons require you to drive and make decisions independently, and the roads your instructor will bring you on get busier and busier.

I know I wouldn't have been able for the last couple of EDT lessons without practice with my dad as the lessons included driving on busy main roads while matching the appropriate speed, changing lanes, and making decisions myself.

Hope that makes it a bit clearer. Best of look with the lessons.

starlit

You need to do the minimum of 12 EDT lessons after that you can do as many lessons as needed but usually the instructor won't allow you to move onto the next lesson unless you passed the other ones no matter how long it takes. You can have as many lessons as you want after the 12 EDT lessons are up. Its a requirement you have the 12 EDT lessons covered and logged before you do your test. Its a requirement also as the previous poster stated that you need three hours driving practice before each lesson and that you have a two week break in between so that stretches out the lessons a bit and help absorb and practice everything!

Good luck with it. Everyone is different in terms of pace and how many lessons required.

I am doing the ordinary lessons and I have had over 20 professional lessons at this stage and its only now that things are really coming together cause i change instructor started from scratch but managed to learn things better and improve after three lessons with my instructor after 10 lessons with my instructor there was a good improvement I am nearly into my 12th lesson with him and everything is going well so fingers crossed after a couple more lessons and practice in between I be good to go to prepare for my driving test. I am getting there!

ayumi

so you need more then 12 hrs?
I have drove in the n11,narrow roads and busy roads I havent reversed or parked yet.
my lessons are a week apart and doing the 7 hrs this is what i have done.

ADIDriving

doovdela wrote: »

the instructor won't allow you to move onto the next lesson unless you passed the other ones no matter how long it takes.

Important to clarify that the instructor cannot force you to take more then the twelve. Each lesson is NOT pass or fail. The lesson is delivered and stamped as done, regardless of the learners ability to apply it. However the instructor can strongly advise and agree with the learner that more work is needed on certain points.
Good luck with your driving.

ADIDriving

ayumi wrote: »

so you need more then 12 hrs?
I have drove in the n11,narrow roads and busy roads I havent reversed or parked yet.
my lessons are a week apart and doing the 7 hrs this is what i have done.

Reversing around corners and turnabouts ( three point turns ) are in EDT lesson 5! Did you get that lessons stamped and signed as done in your logbook.

ayumi

ill see because the instructor has my logbook to fill it.So I will see what she had stamped,I have one lesson stamped as I was with another school and i stopped doing lessons as stop covering the area.

The instructor was saying it is essential to do more lessons and you cant drive even with the sponsor after the 12 hrs

ADIDriving

ayumi wrote: »

The instructor was saying it is essential to do more lessons and you cant drive even with the sponsor after the 12 hrs

THIS IS NOT TRUE! You do not have to do more then the 12. You can and should drive with a sponsor at any and all stages.

ayumi

ill discuss the things we have covered and what I got stamped in my next lesson as I was sure before paying for lessons/looking that the EDT requires you to do only 12 hrs with instructor and sponsor when done with the 12 hrs I got the impression that your free and so continue with sponsor until your confident to drive alone which is when you apply for the driving test.

MascotDec85

ayumi wrote: »

ill see because the instructor has my logbook to fill it.So I will see what she had stamped,I have one lesson stamped as I was with another school and i stopped doing lessons as stop covering the area.

The instructor was saying it is essential to do more lessons and you cant drive even with the sponsor after the 12 hrs

Your logbook is owned by YOU and NOT your instructor! Get it off him or her and keep it yourself.
Sounds to me as if your instructor is trying to ensure you don't go elsewhere!

Best Driving

ayumi wrote: »

Im at the moment doing lessons and I have been told that I would need more then the 12 hours?
i have now 7 hours done but all I have been doing is driving on the road and signalling right or left.
I thought that EDT lessons are divided into different lessons eg lesson 5 you learn how to learn how to something different to lesson 6?
but why am I being told that these 12 hrs are introduction and i need to get a car to do more lessons?

As an ADI your instructor should be telling you where you are at. What you are trying to achieve in each lesson. What practice you should be doing to prepare for each EDT lesson. Which lessons are preparation only or non-EDT. If your instructor does not do this you should ask why not. It may be time to find a better instructor.

Has he given you your logbook? If not you technically haven't started EDT at all.

<SNIP>

ayumi

Best Driving wrote: »

As an ADI your instructor should be telling you where you are at. What you are trying to achieve in each lesson. What practice you should be doing to prepare for each EDT lesson. Which lessons are preparation only or non-EDT. If your instructor does not do this you should ask why not. It may be time to find a better instructor.

Has he given you your logbook? If not you technically haven't started EDT at all.

<SNIP>

i started with a different instructor and was given a book and now this instructor took it to sign it off i dont have a lesson until wednesday

Best Driving

ADIDriving wrote: »

doovdela wrote: »

the instructor won't allow you to move onto the next lesson unless you passed the other ones no matter how long it takes.

Important to clarify that the instructor cannot force you to take more then the twelve. Each lesson is NOT pass or fail. The lesson is delivered and stamped as done, regardless of the learners ability to apply it. However the instructor can strongly advise and agree with the learner that more work is needed on certain points.
Good luck with your driving.

I'm sorry but to clarify. The instructor is not compelled to sign off on an EDT lesson if the learner has not done the requisite preparation between lessons. At any point during a lesson if the instructor finds the student has not reached a level of competency that with practice could bring them full competency than the instructor can refuse to stamp the lesson. It is not a turn up and get your stamp system. This is what was stated by the RSA in the information meetings with ADIs in April this year.

Having said this it is vital that the learner be made aware of where they are and what is required from them to reach the required standards. It is also true that full-competency is not necessary only good understanding and basic competency. The EDT syllabus as laid out in the EDT information booklet says at the start of each one what the learner MUST be able to demonstrate by the end of the lesson. The expected outcomes however are noted to be reached afterwards with relevant practice.

I will say however that it seems this learner hasn't been given a clear understanding of what stage they are at or what is expected.

If you want to verify what I am saying please visit the RSA website and download the EDT information booklet for learners. You can find it in the Learning to drive section.

Best Driving

ayumi wrote: »

ill see because the instructor has my logbook to fill it.So I will see what she had stamped,I have one lesson stamped as I was with another school and i stopped doing lessons as stop covering the area.

The instructor was saying it is essential to do more lessons and you cant drive even with the sponsor after the 12 hrs

Your instructor should not hold your logbook. It is yours not theirs. You have the right to switch instructors at anytime and can only do this if you have the logbook. It is your legal responsibility to maintain the logbook. She should be filling it in in front of you and getting you to countersign at the end of each lesson. She should keep the blue tear out copy which is marked as " instructors copy" and the carbon copy marked "students copy" stays in the logbook which you bring home.

It is also recommended that you fill in the self analysis section between lessons in your logbook and that your sponsor fills in the sponsors notes pages if they wish. So for these reasons also your Instructor should not hold your logbook.

Also you must practice and drive with your sponsor from day one as this is the point of having a sponsor. Please do read the EDT information booklet as there is so much misinformation out there.

Good luck.

the little trucker

ADIDriving wrote: »

THIS IS NOT TRUE! You do not have to do more then the 12. You can and should drive with a sponsor at any and all stages.

Hi ADIDriving, please be careful with the advice you give in regards to the learner and sponsor arrangement. I know from your posts that your advice is always with the best of intentions.

Advice can be open to interpretation so much and this is a major flaw with the EDT.

Learners should only go with a sponsor driver when they are not a danger to themselves, the sponsor and road users at large.

Many learners feel it is just a case of doing twelve lessons and their ready to sit the test. The RSA have done a terrible job informing the public.

I am not comfortable signing off on an EDT lesson unless the learner can show a good degree of competency.

As an ADI you are now being monitored like never before by the RSA.

REDLINE@

Essential Driver Training (EDT)

Frequently Asked Questions from ADI Briefing Sessions

Q. If some of the Expected Outcomes are not achieved, does the ADI still stamp the Logbook?

A. Yes, the feedback recorded in the logbook should reflect any shortfalls in terms of achieving the
expected outcomes.

Q. Does the ADI stamp the logbook even if the learner is not able to do some of the requirements of the lesson?

A. Yes, The fact that a learner does not meet some of the expected outcomes should then be recorded
in the feedback section of the logbook and that is what is being stamped and signed by the ADI.

ADIDriving

Best Driving wrote: »

I'm sorry but to clarify. The instructor is not compelled to sign off on an EDT lesson if the learner has not done the requisite preparation between lessons.

This is a true and fair point.

At any point during a lesson if the instructor finds the student has not reached a level of competency that with practice could bring them full competency than the instructor can refuse to stamp the lesson.

THIS IS NOT TRUE.

It is not a turn up and get your stamp system. This is what was stated by the RSA in the information meetings with ADIs in April this year.

It is the job of the ADI to deliver the information. Once that, and the appropriate driving for the lesson has been done the logbook is to be stamped. The expected outcomes are goals not requirements.

If you want to verify what I am saying please visit the RSA website and download the EDT information booklet for learners. You can find it in the Learning to drive section.

The previous post by Redline quotes the official RSA answer to these questions. It is clear, to the point and not open to misinterpretation.

ADIDriving

the little trucker wrote: »

Hi ADIDriving, please be careful with the advice you give in regards to the learner and sponsor arrangement. I know from your posts that your advice is always with the best of intentions.

Thanks for your concern. But my statement is accurate.

Learners should only go with a sponsor driver when they are not a danger to themselves, the sponsor and road users at large.

From the Learner Driver Information Booklet, " You (the learner) should practice for at least three hours before your first EDT lesson." This is fairly to the point. I would suggest that this practice should be done in an empty carpark, field, beach, etc. So it is suggested by the RSA that they pracitice driving, just not where.

Many learners feel it is just a case of doing twelve lessons and their ready to sit the test. The RSA have done a terrible job informing the public.

Fully agree.

I am not comfortable signing off on an EDT lesson unless the learner can show a good degree of competency.

THIS IS WRONG. You sign for the delivery of the the lesson. Once you have given them the information and done the required driving for that lesson it is to be signed off. It is not a test.

As an ADI you are now being monitored like never before by the RSA.

The section on the logbook for the ADI's comments can be used to 'cover the ADI' for the lack of competency of a learner, by using phrases like "More practice required (in a restricted area) (to achieve expected outcomes / competency)

Andrew Hussey

Hi there, I'm new to this Boards thing, I hope I'm posting this in the right place.

I've been trying for a while to post a "new thread" but the button simply seems to be missing from the page I can see.

Anyway, I have passed two of the three exams to become a authorized driving instructor (ADI), the third exam is the teaching driving bit. So if there is anyone out there who has their own car and needs some free instruction let me know.

I'm based in south Dublin and I'm pretty flexible.

Send me an email - husco2@gmail.com

Andrew

Best Driving

Andrew Hussey wrote: »

Hi there, I'm new to this Boards thing, I hope I'm posting this in the right place.

I've been trying for a while to post a "new thread" but the button simply seems to be missing from the page I can see.

Anyway, I have passed two of the three exams to become a authorized driving instructor (ADI), the third exam is the teaching driving bit. So if there is anyone out there who has their own car and needs some free instruction let me know.

I'm based in south Dublin and I'm pretty flexible.

Send me an email - husco2@gmail.com

Andrew

There is a great book that I wish I had when I started Instruction it is Practical teaching skills for Driving Instructors - its is written by John Miller (Also wrote driving instructors handbook which is on the RSA Recommended reading list) All of his books are good but this one is great for Lesson plans, check test preparation and the ADI part 3 (although he is talking in relation to the uk system it is very familiar to our system and very helpful).

Hope this helps and best of luck with the exams. you can contact me at edtireland.wordpress.com just by leaving a comment on a post if you want help with anything else.

Andrew Hussey

Thanks very much for the advice. I'll look up that book on Amazon.

Andrew

Roadskill

Would all ADI's stop mentioning the word COMPETENCY It is a certificate of completion that is signed off and there is a huge difference. A competent driver would not need us would they.
Anyway imo the EDT syllabus has ruined the way we all learn to drive. It should have been the same as the motorbikes and all lessons completed prior to driving on the road with a sponsor. This would have ensured the sponsor is safe (Well Safer) without dual controls in their vehicle and also that the sponsor who is not a qualified instructor in 99.9% of cases will not be contradicting the ADI during practice hours.
Please correct me if i'm wrong as someone will think:rolleyes: so.

Robxxx7

my 2c worth ...

This new syllabus of training is an opportunity to ensure consistency of providing training to new learners ... in my view and having looked through the EDT training syllabus this means that before any stamp can be given to a learner then they need to show practically that they can perform the requirements before their ADI should give them a stamp.

All this nonsense about it not being a stamp of competency and just for delivery of a lesson is complete an utter cop out ...

Why not just take all your lessons in your kitchen at home over the phone and deliver the lesson verbally then stamp the book ... its tantamount to the same thing...

Any decent ADI will want to ensure that the learner is competent at each level before giving a stamp and then give them there homework in preparation for the next lesson ... if the learner does not show the level of competency required for the next stamp then they don't get it ....

At least with this methodology bythe time the learner comes to take their test they are in a far better position practically to pass ... just stamping them for providing instruction even though they cannot practically show they have learnt the skills will not only be a disaster for them at test time but also for those ADI's who take this approach and end up with failing students ..

Good luck with that

ADIDriving

Rob: You are entitled to hold an opinion as to how the EDT syllabus should be done. But there is a right way and a wrong way to do it. The way you suggest is wrong. Like it or loath it, the student is not required to meet the expected outcomes before getting the stamp. To say doing things correctly is a cop out is ignorant and insulting. One could suggest that those who choose to ignore the facts are being immoral in their dealing with their students.

Robxxx7

I firmly believe that not putting your student first and providing 1st class practical training and the student showing competency both insulting and ignorant ...

Lets see how things pan out eh ! by your synopsis you could have a student for 12 consecutive days and give them a stamp each day ... then they could take a test and quite probably fail ... Who's at fault here .. You, The student ..both or the system ...

When you get a succession of students fail because they are not showing competency at the end of their EDT ... do you not think that will come back as a reflection on your training ? I don't think saying i'm only there to give instruction not to ensure the student is 'competent' in driving will do yourself any favours.

MascotDec85

Rob

While I agree to a certain extent with what you are saying there's a couple of things which has to be said.

1) During the EDT Rollout Seminars it was stated on more than one occasion that the EDT "lessons" (a totally in-advised use of the word) were not mini-tests. ADI's were stamping that the "lesson" content had been delivered. No more, no less. Whether we believe this is what should be happening or not that's what was stated.

2) Completion of the EDT Syllabus does not mean the pupil is a competent driver and is test ready. This is stated in the EDT Info booklet.


It is our job to get the pupil ready for the test if that is the case, not blindly let them apply. If we tell them they are not ready for test and they choose not to heed our advice that is their call.


All that said, the last few posts are turning into a bit of a bickering session.

Robxxx7

Fair comment MascotDec

If this is the case then the EDT is a fairly pointless exercise... some of the lesson content 'could' be delivered over the phone or nowhere near a vehicle..

Personally think there is a huge mis-communication here between RSA- ADI and Students and what the EDT is about.

I also know that at some EDT roll out seminars that the issue of lessons or competency was not made clear

I know of students that have no clue what is expected from them for each part of the syllabus and i know of some ADI's who will not stamp until the student has reached the level of competency for each part of the syllabus ... and others who stamp regardless ... the main issue here really is consistency

RSA has made a bit of a shambles of a decent iniative if they had made it clear to all

ADIDriving

It has been made perfectly clear. Read Redlines post above. Those facts were emailed to all ADIs. The system is flawed. But there are clear guidelines to follow for those that read them. It is the customers right to choose the number of lessons they take, subject to the RSAs mimimum. It is our job to advise, guide and instruct.
Fact, fairness and freewill are more important then reputation. That said I prefer to keep my honest reputation with my customers as well as a high pass rate, as opposed to being unfair with only a high pass rate.

Robxxx7

So would i be correct in saying that a student would get a stamp on every lesson ?

ADIDriving

Robxxx7 wrote: »

So would i be correct in saying that a student would get a stamp on every lesson ?

No. They may choose ( following their ADIs advice ) to take 'practice lessons' inbetween EDT lessons or to spread an EDT lesson out over two hours. Extra lessons must be agreed by both parties. If they choose to just take the EDT lessons that is their choice. If appropriate they should be advised against it and this should be reflected in the notes. But it is their choice, not the ADIs.

Robxxx7

ok but by my understanding of what you said earlier as well is that as long as you give instruction to cover lesson 1 or lesson 2 etc then the student will get a stamp.

You may advise of any shortcomings and extra work that may be needed with their sponsor but as long as the instruction is given then they will also get the stamp.

So an example ..I've come to you and booked a block booking of 12 EDT lessons (no other lessons just purely EDT lessons). You give the instruction pertaining to each lesson of the syllabus and i get a stamp for each lesson.
I am still no way competent enough to take my test, i still have faults, i occasionally still coast, cross my hands etc but as far as the 'system' is concerned all elements of the EDT has been completed.

I understand you would advise against this approach but its something that could/can happen ...

the little trucker

What is the objective for Lesson 2?
During your second lesson, your ADI should make sure that you can position
the car correctly on the road for the actions you are about to take. Actions
include:
z driving on the straight;
z cornering;
z negotiating bends and junctions;
z changing lanes;
z entering and exiting from slip roads;
z entering and exiting junctions and roundabouts; and
z correct positioning within traffi c lanes.

This is taken straight of the RSA website.

You can not move onto the next lesson until the log book is stamped.

I tell all my learners on lesson 1,day 1, that I am not here to get them to pass their driving test, my role is to make them a safe, competent and confident driver...

Are the ADI's happy to sign off on a lesson ,that they know the driver cannot execute correctly, regardless of whether or not you can put a note to say the learner has not reached the required level of competence?

MascotDec85

Robxxx7 wrote: »

ok but by my understanding of what you said earlier as well is that as long as you give instruction to cover lesson 1 or lesson 2 etc then the student will get a stamp.

You may advise of any shortcomings and extra work that may be needed with their sponsor but as long as the instruction is given then they will also get the stamp.

So an example ..I've come to you and booked a block booking of 12 EDT lessons (no other lessons just purely EDT lessons). You give the instruction pertaining to each lesson of the syllabus and i get a stamp for each lesson.
I am still no way competent enough to take my test, i still have faults, i occasionally still coast, cross my hands etc but as far as the 'system' is concerned all elements of the EDT has been completed.

I understand you would advise against this approach but its something that could/can happen ...

In theory that could happen, yes.

the little trucker wrote: »

What is the objective for Lesson 2?
During your second lesson, your ADI should make sure that you can position
the car correctly on the road for the actions you are about to take. Actions
include:
z driving on the straight;
z cornering;
z negotiating bends and junctions;
z changing lanes;
z entering and exiting from slip roads;
z entering and exiting junctions and roundabouts; and
z correct positioning within traffi c lanes.

This is taken straight of the RSA website.

You can not move onto the next lesson until the log book is stamped.

I tell all my learners on lesson 1,day 1, that I am not here to get them to pass their driving test, my role is to make them a safe, competent and confident driver...

Are the ADI's happy to sign off on a lesson ,that they know the driver cannot execute correctly, regardless of whether or not you can put a note to say the learner has not reached the required level of competence?

It totally depends on the pupil though. Some pupils sail through, others take more work. If I felt they weren't competent enough I'd advise them of my reasons as to why I felt as I did referring back to things the did wrong etc etc. I'd then throw it back to them asking them if they felt they should be progressing to the next stage. It's then their decision based on our discussion.
Most of my EDT pupils don't have a sponsor so are doing the additional practice lessons with me.


To touch on a point Rob made. I've a pupil who, tonight, will be practising for EDT 7 I think it is. Every week he makes the same clutch errors. This guy week in, week out rarely puts the clutch in fully when coming to a stop and sometimes when changing gears. I'm on at him about it til I'm blue in the face but as night follows day he repeats it the next week. It's not as if I can hold him back and keep him at EDT 1 or 2 til he gets this is it? No, obviously not. Every week I note in the Logbook that he needs to ensure the clutch is pressed in fully. I've explained how the thing works on umpteen occasions. I just need to take a deep breath and keep telling him over and over again.

Roadskill

As I said in my original post it should have been implemented the same as the motorcycle IBT. I have recently given 3 IBT trainees a Pre-test and all three passed with flying colors as they have been riding the bikes for the last 6 months as they were taught prior to going it alone. All 3 had the correct safety gear on them, all 3 had good condition clean machines and all 3 had a good knowledge of the test and it's requirements. The best part is that everyone who has done the IBT have enjoyed it and been prepared for riding in the real world and not just to pass the test. Granted some will still need to do more but they are not signed off IBT until they have completed all of the syllabus satisfactory (Not Competently).
As you all can see in the previous posts here that ADI's are seriously confused and upset over the RSA's efforts with EDT. IBT had started to prove it's worth when EDT was introduced so why oh why did they mess it up and change the format so much?
I have attached a copy of the IBT syllabus for any of you who are not familiar with it. Have a look and see if you thing EDT could have gone along the same route. Remember when reading this that all has to be completed and signed off before they are allowed to ride on the road unaccompanied.

BTW I am not getting at anyone here but can you honestly tell me EDT is working because in my part of the world driving lessons are drying up fast.

Robxxx7

MascotDec85 wrote: »

In theory that could happen, yes.



It totally depends on the pupil though. Some pupils sail through, others take more work. If I felt they weren't competent enough I'd advise them of my reasons as to why I felt as I did referring back to things the did wrong etc etc. I'd then throw it back to them asking them if they felt they should be progressing to the next stage. It's then their decision based on our discussion.
Most of my EDT pupils don't have a sponsor so are doing the additional practice lessons with me.


To touch on a point Rob made. I've a pupil who, tonight, will be practising for EDT 7 I think it is. Every week he makes the same clutch errors. This guy week in, week out rarely puts the clutch in fully when coming to a stop and sometimes when changing gears. I'm on at him about it til I'm blue in the face but as night follows day he repeats it the next week. It's not as if I can hold him back and keep him at EDT 1 or 2 til he gets this is it? No, obviously not. Every week I note in the Logbook that he needs to ensure the clutch is pressed in fully. I've explained how the thing works on umpteen occasions. I just need to take a deep breath and keep telling him over and over again.

uummm Gives you food for thought ... so you would leave it upto the student ultimately to say whether they believe they should get a stamp or not ? Even if you don't neccessarily agree ?

The more i read into the EDT the more i believe they have missed an opportunity here ... The syllabus in itself is a good idea but the enforcement of it is too grey an area or should i say not clear enough to all. It would have been far better to be a 'competency' lesson where if you do not believe the student has shown the neccessary skills to pass a lesson then it doesn't get signed off ..

Roadskill wrote: »

As I said in my original post it should have been implemented the same as the motorcycle IBT. I have recently given 3 IBT trainees a Pre-test and all three passed with flying colors as they have been riding the bikes for the last 6 months as they were taught prior to going it alone. All 3 had the correct safety gear on them, all 3 had good condition clean machines and all 3 had a good knowledge of the test and it's requirements. The best part is that everyone who has done the IBT have enjoyed it and been prepared for riding in the real world and not just to pass the test. Granted some will still need to do more but they are not signed off IBT until they have completed all of the syllabus satisfactory (Not Competently).
As you all can see in the previous posts here that ADI's are seriously confused and upset over the RSA's efforts with EDT. IBT had started to prove it's worth when EDT was introduced so why oh why did they mess it up and change the format so much?
I have attached a copy of the IBT syllabus for any of you who are not familiar with it. Have a look and see if you thing EDT could have gone along the same route. Remember when reading this that all has to be completed and signed off before they are allowed to ride on the road unaccompanied.

BTW I am not getting at anyone here but can you honestly tell me EDT is working because in my part of the world driving lessons are drying up fast.

So with the IBT does each module have to be signed off before moving onto the next or only once ALL modules have been completed successfully that it is signed off ?

Roadskill

Robxxx7 wrote: »

So with the IBT does each module have to be signed off before moving onto the next or only once ALL modules have been completed successfully that it is signed off ?

Robxxx7

Each module is signed off on completion within the log book. Once completed the trainee receives a certificate of completion signed by the instructor which must be carried with the learner permit. The log book is also given to the trainee to keep. The hours are a minimum and it is up to the discretion of the instructor to decide if the trainee has demonstrated each item satisfactorily.
In most cases the trainee will have ample time to learn and practice each module on the practical side and the classroom modules are marked as demonstrated and observed with an understanding of them. Each module (Not Lessons) can be taken individually or as I do in most cases all 4 over a 2 day period.
Trainee's will then come back for more lessons in the future for test prep or just to improve.
By the time they have finished the course they have ridden about 100km on road with me in all traffic and road conditions from city to country lanes. We also had to submit our route plans to the RSA for approval to make sure all aspects were covered.

Robxxx7

Roadskill wrote: »

Robxxx7 wrote: »

So with the IBT does each module have to be signed off before moving onto the next or only once ALL modules have been completed successfully that it is signed off ?

Robxxx7

Each module is signed off on completion within the log book. Once completed the trainee receives a certificate of completion signed by the instructor which must be carried with the learner permit. The log book is also given to the trainee to keep. The hours are a minimum and it is up to the discretion of the instructor to decide if the trainee has demonstrated each item satisfactorily.
In most cases the trainee will have ample time to learn and practice each module on the practical side and the classroom modules are marked as demonstrated and observed with an understanding of them. Each module (Not Lessons) can be taken individually or as I do in most cases all 4 over a 2 day period.
Trainee's will then come back for more lessons in the future for test prep or just to improve.
By the time they have finished the course they have ridden about 100km on road with me in all traffic and road conditions from city to country lanes. We also had to submit our route plans to the RSA for approval to make sure all aspects were covered.

Thanks for the explanation... Sounds a far better scheme than the EDT and one that should have been used as a basis..especially where each module is signed off if completed satisfactory to the instructor. Feel the EDT is nothing more than a white elephant.. RSA have missed the boat here especially considering they have the IBT already working and in operation

the little trucker

Hi Roadskill, what really caught my eye is the very last note, which is as follows,

Please be aware you may not ride a motorcycle, or tricycle, in a public place without being accompanied by your IBT approved trainer unless you are in possession of a certificate of satisfactory completion, issued by an RSA approved Motorcycle IBT trainer, or have passed your offi cial driving test
for the category of vehicle being ridden.

This is a very positive point in my view. It allows and trusts the instructor to be responsible and the judge of the learners standard.

In Poland, (i'm Irish) and other Eastern countries, a learner does not get a learner permit. They do a theory test, 30 hours in a classroom/on road setting and are allowed drive with an instructor or sponsor. They will not get their own insurance for the vehicle and certainly would not turn up to the test on their own, fail, and drive home on their own.

I do not disagree with the EDT, but if it was up to me i would have set up like this. The learner must be capable of moving off/ stopping safely, position on the straight, turning left/right and roundabouts. When they can do this then they use their sponsors vehicle. It is what I always done pre EDT.

MascotDec85

Robxxx7 wrote: »

uummm Gives you food for thought ... so you would leave it upto the student ultimately to say whether they believe they should get a stamp or not ? Even if you don't neccessarily agree ?

I've not had a pupil yet who hasn't followed my advice.
Don't also forget there are notes in the info booklet which state things like:

Specifically, you should have practiced for at least three hours, driving..............

The above quote is an excerpt from preparation for EDT8. So after EDT7 I could have 3 hours with my pupil practising what we did in EDT7 whilst preparing them for EDT8

MascotDec85

The RSA, imo, dropped a major clanger by referring to the EDT as lessons, I've said all along that that they should have been called modules.

Robxxx7

MascotDec85 wrote: »

I've not had a pupil yet who hasn't followed my advice.
Don't also forget there are notes in the info booklet which state things like:



The above quote is an excerpt from preparation for EDT8. So after EDT7 I could have 3 hours with my pupil practising what we did in EDT7 whilst preparing them for EDT8

But on the other hand the pupil could quite easily reject what you say and asked to be stamped regardless ? Atleast with the IBT the onus is on the Instructor to be satisfied that the pupil has passed the modul before signing it off .. its quite an important difference

But thanks for explaining how things are

Philipandson

TO all ADI's please have a look at the legislation of Essential driver Training
http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/13282-B283878RQGK-0.PDF

section 4.3 for the Real Way EDT Should be handled

Legislation is the law!!!!

MascotDec85

Philipandson wrote: »

TO all ADI's please have a look at the legislation of Essential driver Training
http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/13282-B283878RQGK-0.PDF

section 4.3 for the Real Way EDT Should be handled

Legislation is the law!!!!

Now that's interesting!!!

Roadskill

Philipandson wrote: »

TO all ADI's please have a look at the legislation of Essential driver Training
http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/13282-B283878RQGK-0.PDF

section 4.3 for the Real Way EDT Should be handled

Legislation is the law!!!!

Philipandson

It goes without saying that the law is as it states in this document but the issue that has been raised many times and not just here is the confusion between competence and satisfactory.
All us ADI's should know this and is is not up for debate as far as legislation goes but we all know that there are ADI's out there still doing it their own way and signing people off regardless.
In an earlier post I did mention that we should stop using the word competence as this is not what we are to be looking for. All original documents we used during the pilot scheme for cars & bikes mentioned competence and were subsequently changed when officially rolled out due to this.
IMO I still believe that EDT should be revised and the RSA should swallow their pride and change it. What do you think? Is it working for you and your students. I would be very surprised if there are many ADI's who think the RSA got it right.

MascotDec85

Roadskill wrote: »

Philipandson

It goes without saying that the law is as it states in this document but the issue that has been raised many times and not just here is the confusion between competence and satisfactory.
All us ADI's should know this and is is not up for debate as far as legislation goes but we all know that there are ADI's out there still doing it their own way and signing people off regardless.
In an earlier post I did mention that we should stop using the word competence as this is not what we are to be looking for. All original documents we used during the pilot scheme for cars & bikes mentioned competence and were subsequently changed when officially rolled out due to this.
IMO I still believe that EDT should be revised and the RSA should swallow their pride and change it. What do you think? Is it working for you and your students. I would be very surprised if there are many ADI's who think the RSA got it right.

The point is there is a clear difference from what the RSA told us and in exact wording in the S.I.
The RSA have contradicted what the legislation states:

(3) A person undergoing lessons 1 to 8 of Essential Driver Training for Car Drivers is not entitled to progress to the next lesson or any subsequent lesson of the course unless he or she has demonstrated the necessary knowledge and ability for the procedures and processes of the proceeding lesson of the course to the satisfaction of the instructor.

That means competence

Roadskill

MascotDec85 wrote: »

The point is there is a clear difference from what the RSA told us and in exact wording in the S.I.
The RSA have contradicted what the legislation states:
That means competence

Competent = having suitable or sufficient skill, knowledge, experience,

As you point out we were all told different by the RSA. At the meetings regarding EDT we were told that we could sign off on a lesson after covering it. That is clearly not the case.

ADIDriving

This document shows us the facts. Facts that the RSA told the complete opposite to. I mistakenly believed very senior rsa staff to be accurate. Therefor I was wrong any time I argued that we sign off the delivery of a lesson. Wether the other person knew these details or not they were correct. Sorry.

This is a major f### up be the RSA. It may also mean that they will change the EDT program, as they change the law?

Philipandson

Well thats what we can hit the RSA with, they are controdicting the Law!!

There has been so much confusion people saying its just signing off, organisations claiming its not even in Legislation!!! this is how the RSA is getting around The ADI's as a profession.

We need to hit the RSA with the law and what the law says, and how can they fight that, they are the ones who designed this legislation.

REDLINE@

Doesn’t change anything

The Legislation doesn’t say not to stamp the logbook if a pupil has not demonstrated the necessary knowledge and ability

The wording is …. A person undergoing lessons 1 to 8 of Essential Driver Training for Car Drivers is not entitled to progress to the next lesson or any subsequent lesson
of the course unless he or she has demonstrated the necessary knowledge and
ability for the procedures and processes of the proceeding lesson of the course
to the satisfaction of the instructor.

You must still sign off on an EDT lessons if you gave one …the instructor cannot refuse to stamp the EDT lesson……however an instructor CAN AND SHOULD refuse to progress to the next EDT lesson if they are not happy with the pupils progress

Philipandson

where does it state that you must sign off???? it says the student is not entitled to progress to the next lesson unless they meet the skills needed. if we sign off then they can progress to the next lesson?? & take you to court to that effect!!

REDLINE@

Philipandson wrote: »

where does it state that you must sign off????

………The rsa have already stated this……….written and verbally

Philipandson wrote: »

if we sign off then they can progress to the next lesson?? & take you to court to that effect!!

Says who…. legislation states Drivers are not entitled to progress to the next lesson..You’re the instructor you tell your pupil when your happy with there progress and move onto the next EDT not the other way around.

They can take you to court if they want but as you said it’s in the legislation. its the law

Just to note…To be totally honest I don’t personally agree with it myself and i do think it should be the other way around.