A Bad Programme Done Well is Better Than a Good Programme Done Badly- Discuss

Barry.Oglesby

As the title says. I'm interested in particular in all those guys doing Built Like a Badass and the like at the moment.

Hanley

Agree.

Doesn't matter how good the program is if you only give it 50%.

If you commit to something stupid, really believe in it, and provided it's not a COMPLETE clusterf*ck and contains some of the basic elements like planned progression and compound movements, you'll be grand**.

EDIT: also, IDIBISHDI

EDIT 2: **unless it's 5/3/1, cos there's no saving that

thehamo

what would constitute a good program done badly. just out of interest:)

Hanley

thehamo wrote: »

what would constitute a good program done badly. just out of interest:)

An intelligently designed program done with no effort, consistency or intensity, I would assume.

Kev M

100% agree with the statement. From not only personal experience but from watching others aswell, and not only with training but with alot of things in life really e.g. study, learning to play an instrument, etc. etc . etc.

the drifter

agree....unless your giving it your all your wasting your time....take itsallabouttheL for example...man his training is a load of s*ite....but by god he gives it his all...

Tigger

What's wrong with built like badass?

Brian?

Tigger wrote: »

What's wrong with built like badass?

The name.

Inspector Coptoor

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

As the title says. I'm interested in particular in all those guys doing Built Like a Badass and the like at the moment.

Would you rate BLABA as a bad programme?

Why pick it out above any other programme?

Is it due to the perceived popularity it has here at the moment?


I am enjoying the programme so far as opposed to finding it good or bad.
It's pushing me out of my comfort zone regularly and I'm trying to follow it to the letter in as far as possible while pushing myself hard on all 3 days of the workout.


Things that I like about it are:
1. that you are frequently going over 90% in 2 of the main lifts per week.
2. There is a deload element built into the programme, weeks 5 and 10 of a 12 week programme.
3. The fact that is comprises strength, hypertrophy and conditining on all three days
4. there are prehab/rehab exercises as well as core work in the programme.
5. workouts (including warm up and stretch at the end) last about 70-80 mins


I'm not in a position at the moment to say whether it's a great, good, bad or terrible programme at the moment as I'm only about half way through.

The one thing that would concern me are perceived increases in strength, ie, I got 80kg x 11 3 weeks ago on the bench and got 80kg x 14 this week.
Gaining 3 reps on a weight in the 80-85% range is all well and good but I wont know until week 11 if this has any carry over to 1RM, and this brings me back to my 5/3/1 days when I was hitting rep PRs all the time but rarely adding kgs to my 1RM.


Time will tell I guess.


I dont know if this answers your question or not Barry, but I;ll be in a much better place to answer it in 6 & 1/2 weeks time.

Barry.Oglesby

Point seems to have been missed a bit.

Liam Henners257

Liam Henners257 wrote: »

Would you rate BLABA as a bad programme?

Why pick it out above any other programme?

Is it due to the perceived popularity it has here at the moment?


I am enjoying the programme so far as opposed to finding it good or bad.
It's pushing me out of my comfort zone regularly and I'm trying to follow it to the letter in as far as possible while pushing myself hard on all 3 days of the workout.


Things that I like about it are:
1. that you are frequently going over 90% in 2 of the main lifts per week.
2. There is a deload element built into the programme, weeks 5 and 10 of a 12 week programme.
3. The fact that is comprises strength, hypertrophy and conditining on all three days
4. there are prehab/rehab exercises as well as core work in the programme.
5. workouts (including warm up and stretch at the end) last about 70-80 mins


I'm not in a position at the moment to say whether it's a great, good, bad or terrible programme at the moment as I'm only about half way through.

The one thing that would concern me are perceived increases in strength, ie, I got 80kg x 11 3 weeks ago on the bench and got 80kg x 14 this week.
Gaining 3 reps on a weight in the 80-85% range is all well and good but I wont know until week 11 if this has any carry over to 1RM, and this brings me back to my 5/3/1 days when I was hitting rep PRs all the time but rarely adding kgs to my 1RM.


Time will tell I guess.


I dont know if this answers your question or not Barry, but I;ll be in a much better place to answer it in 6 & 1/2 weeks time.

I guess Barry was singling it out as it had been started and then HEAVILY modified by people to the point that they weren't doing the programme!

I think Barry's first point utterly depends on what makes attributes a good programme and a bad programme. If the difference is likelihood of injury then in a net "life" sense you're better with worse progress and no injury than intensely pursuing gains with a higher injury with 100% effort.

Best to do halfass bodybuilding than 100% intense CF for example!

Inspector Coptoor

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Point seems to have been missed a bit.

Apologies if I missed the point.

I answered what I thought was asked

columok wrote: »

I guess Barry was singling it out as it had been started and then HEAVILY modified by people to the point that they weren't doing the programme!
.

Ok, fair enough. If you change the programme, then you arent doing the programmea as such, but if you;re working hard at it then it can still be beneficial

columok wrote: »

I think Barry's first point utterly depends on what makes attributes a good programme and a bad programme. If the difference is likelihood of injury then in a net "life" sense you're better with worse and progress and no injury than intensely pursuing injury with 100% effort.

Fully agree with this.

d'Oracle

http://rawpl.com/articles/how-i-got-to-a-double-bodyweight-bench-press-raw/

I have absolutely no other contribution cos I know that this will only go the way of bashing perfectly acceptable openly available programmes, regardless of the good intentions of the opening post.

Satanta

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Point seems to have been missed a bit.

What I took from the opening post was that the built like a badass program wasn't great but you wanted to know if doing that 100% was better than doing something else half arsed even though it may be considered a better program. Sorry if this isnt what was meant but that is the way it reads to me.

columok wrote: »

I guess Barry was singling it out as it had been started and then HEAVILY modified by people to the point that they weren't doing the programme!

I didnt get that at all from the OP but it may be what was meant.


My two cents:
Same as Liam, I am approaching half way through the program and am also trying to stick to it as written. I had been really tempted to do more on the deload week but didnt. I had been doing a fair bit of cardio in the first 4 weeks but I am going to cut that back now a bit until I finish the program. Cardio is also permitted in the program.

I find it enjoyable and am doing it to my best ability. I log my progress here on boards and if I am straying from the program I'd like it pointed out. I am not aware of anyone that is doing it and heavily modifying it TBH. I am actually only aware of a couple of others here doing it but I dont think they log anything.

Right now I dont particularly find it better or worse than anything else I have done over the last year or two, but maybe that is because I did everything to my best ability, even sh1te programs.

COH

Built Like a Badass is just a program.. one of thousands you could use as an example. The point of the thread isn't its merits as a program at all so it doesnt need to be defended or slated, its just that you probably shouldnt be doing something that deFranco wrote without having ever met you.

Its probable that no two people, in perfect circumstances (eg under supervision/guidance of a coach etc.) should ever do exactly the same program. Thats the problem with built like a bad ass etc. among a million and one possibilities there might be, for example, technical issues with the exercises that someone who buys the book isnt aware of. Person X might have a glaring issue that means for the time being he should not do any vertical pressing, or deadlifting from the floor or whatever. But he buys the program, does it, does it to the limits of his capacity and sees results. That doesnt necessarily mean the program was good (for him).

'Programs' in general will work when followed because they take peoples own input out of the equation. When you work off specific guidelines you no longer do the 45th set of benching and the usual clusterf*ck of b*ll**** you see around you.

I imagine that if you took a random 100 people from any commercial gym and made them follow Built Like a Badass.... (men, women, irrespective of goals, age, personal dynamics, etc) you'd probably see a net rise in 'results' across the board, but that doesnt mean that literally everyone should be doing it, it just means that the application of any kind of stucture with decent intensity is better than what they were doing in the first place.

Barry.Oglesby

COH gets the point.

Hanley

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

COH gets the point.

Heyyy I got it too

Inspector Coptoor

COH wrote: »

I imagine that if you took a random 100 people from any commercial gym and made them follow Built Like a Badass.... (men, women, irrespective of goals, age, personal dynamics, etc) you'd probably see a net rise in 'results' across the board, but that doesnt mean that literally everyone should be doing it, it just means that the application of any kind of stucture with decent intensity is better than what they were doing in the first place.

This is true but it's applicable right across the board.

It can be applied to the IP programmes, GVT, one lift a day etc.

It makes sense that working hard (while not causing injury) at a poorly designed programme would be more beneficial than doing a 1/2 assed job at a "tailor-made" individual programme.

One thing I've noticed from coaching, and I'd coach between 75-100 young athletes on a weekly basis, is that the majority of people have the same issues, ie, weak upper back, tight hip flexors, so in that sense, sometimes a one size fits all programme can work provides there are no outrageous problems with mobility, co-ordination etc, and if there are, a good coach should be able to spot that & substitute a more suitable exercise for the athlete as needed.

Barry.Oglesby

Liam Henners257 wrote: »

This is true but it's applicable right across the board.

It can be applied to the IP programmes, GVT, one lift a day etc.

So this is pretty much my point. My reference to Built Like a Badass was an example.

Any programme, done consistently by a beginner, will yield positive results in the short term, and possibly the medium term too. There a limited number of ways we can rewrite linear progression.

I'm not just referring to strength or bodybuilding stuff. Something like Couch To 5k is great, not because it's some genius programme, but just because it provides structure and motivation.

The title of the thread is actually a pretty commonly heard phrase in training circles. I thought some of the more experienced guys might have heard it before but obviously it's not that common! I just thought it would be an interesting debate and one where people might not just consistently **** on each other.

Inspector Coptoor

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

The title of the thread is actually a pretty commonly heard phrase in training circles. I thought some of the more experienced guys might have heard it before but obviously it's not that common! I just thought it would be an interesting debate and one where people might not just consistently **** on each other.

If it were a debate, there'd have to be two sides, prop & opp.

Anyone who has posted had pretty much said that a bad programme done 1/2 assed is better than a good programme done badly.

Can you give your own viewpoint on it Barry? To add to the discussion.

Also, who was $h1tting on other people? I certainly wasnt. I was just trying to figure out where you were coming from

J-Fit

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

So this is pretty much my point. My reference to Built Like a Badass was an example.

Any programme, done consistently by a beginner, will yield positive results in the short term, and possibly the medium term too. There a limited number of ways we can rewrite linear progression.

I'm not just referring to strength or bodybuilding stuff. Something like Couch To 5k is great, not because it's some genius programme, but just because it provides structure and motivation.

The title of the thread is actually a pretty commonly heard phrase in training circles. I thought some of the more experienced guys might have heard it before but obviously it's not that common! I just thought it would be an interesting debate and one where people might not just consistently **** on each other.

I've heard it lots. It's a "Mike Boyleism" is it not?

Another Mike Boylism I like in relation to what constitutes good but basic programming goes something like this:

-Push Something
-Pull Something
-Do Something for your legs and posterior chain
-Do Something for your core

To me, as basic as the above is, if done well it is better than anything done badly or even better anything else done well in the case of real beginners. I'm confusing myself.

dartstothesea

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

I just thought it would be an interesting debate and one where people might not just consistently **** on each other.

Honestly whenever I've seen this come up here recently I always get the sense that it's just Person A trying to dismiss Person B's (usually a novice) results with a pretty basic program by reminding them how their program isn't as smart as Person A is supposed to be.
Don't know, the goalposts get changed to what your training IQ is or something. Only a guess, but it appears to come off that way.


Haha, I sound fairly butthurt about it there. Everyone stop raggin' on my cord 5x5 training

Barry.Oglesby

J-Fit wrote: »

I've heard it lots. It's a "Mike Boyleism" is it not?

Another Mike Boylism I like in relation to what constitutes good but basic programming goes something like this:

-Push Something
-Pull Something
-Do Something for your legs and posterior chain
-Do Something for your core

To me, as basic as the above is, if done well it is better than anything done badly or even better anything else done well in the case of real beginners. I'm confusing myself.

It might be used by him but I think it's around a long time. I'm not around a long time though so maybe it was invented by Boyle

That Boyle push/pull thing is good.

The other one I like is- Pick one of these
-squat
-deadlift
-pull up
-press
Do one of these per session along with some stuff that helps the other 3

Like you Liam I'm now working with a lot of kids each week, and I'd say we're in a similar position inasmuch as we have 45minutes to an hour to do everything. So it follows that we need to carpet bomb. Coming back to what COH said, you basically see a mean increase no matter what you do since they're neophytes and this is their first consistent exercise.

So for me, once we're not talking about some incredibly idiotic programme- assuming a base level of intelligence I mean- then I agree 100% with the statement.

kevpants

Playing devil's avocado a little here but, I don't necessarily agree.

I'm currently doing a good program but I'm not able to give it all my attention, I keep missing sessions, probbaly getting 2 sessions a week in. I am that guy that elitefts keeps talking about that doesn't have the hardcore attitude that keeps their e-carts overflowing with expensive knee wraps and glow in the dark fizzy coffee. When I do get time to train it's targeted and it's stuff that gets me stronger and every session I lift heavy singles and doubles that are slightly heavier than last time.

In the past I've been the opposite, giving my all to training, pushing off other commitments to make sure I get my sessions in on 5/3/1 or Doggcrapp or Coan Phillipi. Getting extra sessions in to really push myself. In the case of all 3 programs mentioned above I ended up weak and quite badly injured and I did little else but train or think about training.... oh and I was fat because my diet was hardcore too

So I think despite the slogans on the T-shirts of the guys doing 500 reps of different rows on "back day", hardcore attitude and application will only get you so far and there really is nothing sadder than wasted effort.

Inspector Coptoor

Nice post Kev.

Hanley

kevpants wrote: »

Playing devil's avocado a little here but, I don't necessarily agree.

I'm currently doing a good program but I'm not able to give it all my attention, I keep missing sessions, probbaly getting 2 sessions a week in. I am that guy that elitefts keeps talking about that doesn't have the hardcore attitude that keeps their e-carts overflowing with expensive knee wraps and glow in the dark fizzy coffee. When I do get time to train it's targeted and it's stuff that gets me stronger and every session I lift heavy singles and doubles that are slightly heavier than last time.

In the past I've been the opposite, giving my all to training, pushing off other commitments to make sure I get my sessions in on 5/3/1 or Doggcrapp or Coan Phillipi. Getting extra sessions in to really push myself. In the case of all 3 programs mentioned above I ended up weak and quite badly injured and I did little else but train or think about training.... oh and I was fat because my diet was hardcore too

So I think despite the slogans on the T-shirts of the guys doing 500 reps of different rows on "back day", hardcore attitude and application will only get you so far and there really is nothing sadder than wasted effort.

How the hell did you get fat and weak on DC?! Did you just program it poorly?! Genuine question. I thought it was an amazing system. Still do actually.

Barry.Oglesby

kevpants wrote: »

I'm currently doing a good program but I'm not able to give it all my attention, I keep missing sessions, probbaly getting 2 sessions a week in. I am that guy that elitefts keeps talking about that doesn't have the hardcore attitude that keeps their e-carts overflowing with expensive knee wraps and glow in the dark fizzy coffee. When I do get time to train it's targeted and it's stuff that gets me stronger and every session I lift heavy singles and doubles that are slightly heavier than last time.

Well in fairness that sounds like you're doing a good programme with good rest and sensible sessions.

In the past I've been the opposite, giving my all to training, pushing off other commitments to make sure I get my sessions in on 5/3/1 or Doggcrapp or Coan Phillipi. Getting extra sessions in to really push myself. In the case of all 3 programs mentioned above I ended up weak and quite badly injured and I did little else but train or think about training.... oh and I was fat because my diet was hardcore too

And that sounds like you were doing good programmes badly.

So I think despite the slogans on the T-shirts of the guys doing 500 reps of different rows on "back day", hardcore attitude and application will only get you so far and there really is nothing sadder than wasted effort.

Yes. That sounds like bad programming and/or doing it badly.

In short, I think you agree with the statement.

deadlybuzzman

Whats peoples experience of DC? My brother is similar to me in terms of strength, leverages etc so when he wasnt that impressed combined with me reading its an advanced level programme I figured it wasnt for me. Bad decision?

Hanley

deadlybuzzman wrote: »

Whats peoples experience of DC? My brother is similar to me in terms of strength, leverages etc so when he wasnt that impressed combined with me reading its an advanced level programme I figured it wasnt for me. Bad decision?

DC is fantastic if done well.