Going to Britain to declare personal bankruptcy

Slydice

Slydice wrote: »

Is that right? Sounds like a great idea.... like you could Wipe out your debts and start being not bankrupt again after 2 years which is a huge contrast to the 12 years I think it lasts in Ireland.

Looks like this NAMA developer figured it out:
http://www.southernstar.ie/article.php?id=3020

JOHN Fleming, the Butlerstown developer whose construction empire collapsed last year after amassing debts of over €1 billion, is due to come out of bankruptcy in the UK next week.

So, I think the details that look relevant to this thread are in the following two paragraphs:

Mr Fleming was declared bankrupt shortly after he moved to Essex in England last year. In England, bankrupts are discharged from their debts within 12 months, meaning that he will be due to emerge from bankruptcy on November 10th. That’s in stark contrast to Ireland, where bankruptcy restrictions remain in place for 12 years.

European Union law allows people to have their bankruptcy dealt with in any member state, subject to certain conditions. English bankruptcy legislation allows people to petition for bankruptcy assuming they have had ‘residential or business connections’ in England or Wales in the previous three years.

So that looks like:
- Go to England.
- Stay for three years
- Petition for bankruptcy
- Maybe a year (or more or less) to get into bankruptcy
- Bankruptcy discharged within 12 months
Total: Around 5 Years (or more or less)

Or:
- Stay in Ireland
- Get into Bankruptcy (I'd be guessing 1 year or more or less again)
- Bankruptcy discharged within 12 months
Total: Around 12 Years (or more or less)

bbsrs

Slydice wrote: »

Looks like this NAMA developer figured it out:
http://www.southernstar.ie/article.php?id=3020 So, I think the details that look relevant to this thread are in the following two paragraphs:

So that looks like:
- Go to England.
- Stay for three years
- Petition for bankruptcy
- Maybe a year (or more or less) to get into bankruptcy
- Bankruptcy discharged within 12 months
Total: Around 5 Years (or more or less)

The bankruptcy info. you quote said,

"petition for bankruptcy assuming they have had ‘residential or business connections’ in England or Wales in the previous three years "

it didn't say it had to be for continuously for the last 3 years so it could be 6 months in the last three years like people have said.Worth clarifying.

raymann

bbsrs wrote: »

Slydice wrote: »

Looks like this NAMA developer figured it out:
http://www.southernstar.ie/article.php?id=3020 So, I think the details that look relevant to this thread are in the following two paragraphs:

So that looks like:
- Go to England.
- Stay for three years
- Petition for bankruptcy
- Maybe a year (or more or less) to get into bankruptcy
- Bankruptcy discharged within 12 months
Total: Around 5 Years (or more or less)

The bankruptcy info. you quote said,

"petition for bankruptcy assuming they have had ‘residential or business connections’ in England or Wales in the previous three years "

it didn't say it had to be for continuously for the last 3 years so it could be 6 months in the last three years like people have said.Worth clarifying.

worth clarifying? worth doing if you are in big neg equity.

bbsrs

raymann wrote: »

bbsrs wrote: »

worth clarifying? worth doing if you are in big neg equity.

Worth clarifying wasn't a question it was suggestion to clarify whether its the previous 3 years continuous links to the UK or 6 months in the last three years. And yes worth doing either way, I agree !

Maybe the goverenment should set set up a state run go to the UK to file bankruptsy scheme and in two years the negative equity problem would be gone or give people in negative equity jobs in nama with a 200k a year salary, reducing unemployment , personal debt level and increasing income tax receipts all in one fell swoop , I think they are running a trial to see if this is viable as we speak with a few unlucky guys who got caught up in the boom or did someone say they weren't unlucky just greedy and irresponsible but hey lets give em 200k per year anyways, the tax payers won't mind obviously, if they did we would see mass social unrest.

Slydice

Looks like Tony Fenton the DJ might think that even Irish Bankruptcy is worth it when a persons debts are property related:
DJ Fenton to file for bankruptcy with €750,000 debts
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/dj-fenton-to-file-for-bankruptcy-with-euro750000-debts-2927101.html

Speaking exclusively to the Sunday Independent, the Today FM presenter said: "I've lost everything financially, but my health is priceless. I'm in a hole for €750,000 and it's just too big a hole to climb out of and filing for insolvency is the only way out. I'll probably lose my house and have to move.

"The last two years have been a very stressful time. The road I'm going down now, it's not my choice, but regrettably it's the only option for me."

Fenton explained how he invested in the property market to safeguard his future -- only to lose everything in the crash.

"I am a freelancer, so I tried to make provisions for my pension. I invested in a lot of properties in Ireland and the UK and, as a result of the financial downturn, the investments I made have been obliterated."

Speaking about his day in court tomorrow, Fenton described it as "a huge relief".

"There's no doubt about it, it's a huge weight off my shoulders. It's a horrible situation to be in and it brings with it tons of stress as well, and thank God that stress will be lifted now.

"There are a lot of people in this country who have tried to make provisions for a rainy day, put things away, thinking this is a clever move, and unfortunately it hasn't worked out that way but I have to deal with it and get my head down and work hard."

It sounds like it makes pretty good sense to me. If we are going like Japans last bust, we won't see house prices stabilise for quite a long time and certainly not rise back to where they were during the boom.

Choice seems to be:
Heartache and Stress for the rest of the mortgage
Vs
Bankruptcy for 12 years or less if you can get it in Britain

Slydice

namawinelake has a blog post on that nama developer:
NAMAed John Fleming set to emerge from bankruptcy today, financially “newborn” November 10, 2011 by namawinelake
http://namawinelake.wordpress.com/2011/11/10/namaed-john-fleming-set-to-emerge-from-bankruptcy-today-financially-%e2%80%9cnewborn%e2%80%9d/
This seems relevant to this thread:

Of course in Ireland, we have a tiny number of bankruptcies – just 30 in 2010, which is slightly higher than, though still consistent with, previous years – so the market for such greetings cards wouldn’t be huge, though that may be set to change with what appears to be a renewed commitment by the current Government to reform the archaic and largely impractical bankruptcy laws.

However in the neighbouring UK, the bankruptcy business is thriving; in fact it’s so successful that some Irish folks are applying for bankruptcy there. And who can blame them – compared to Ireland the UK bankruptcy process is quick, cheap and seemingly efficient. The UK has a number of processes available depending on the financial condition of the person facing financial challenges – the main ones are bankruptcy, debt relief orders (DROs) where you have small debts of less than GBP15k and practically no assets, and individual voluntary arrangements (IVAs) which are big business in the UK and mean that you work with your creditors for three years to pay them back as much as you can and they agree to write off the remainder. By comparison, the approach to bankruptcy in Ireland is still draconian, even taking into account the Civil Law (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2011 which reduced the bankruptcy period from 12 years to a conditional five years.

Last year, NAMAed developer John Fleming (pictured here) applied to the UK courts for bankruptcy, having previously established residency and commercial connections, and during the past 12 months he has been subjected to the process, but all being well he will have awoken this morning as a financial “new born” – his creditors should no longer have any hold over him, and whatever wealth and income he generates from today is his, and his alone. For details of what UK bankruptcy involves, take a look here at the UK government’s own Insolvency Service.

There’s nothing to stop the 61-year old unleashing his entrepreneurial skills and generating substantial wealth on the back of his skills, experience and contacts and his former creditors will have no legal call on that wealth. Seems painless? Hardly, the process is rigorous, John has reversed transfers including a transfer of assets to a trust in 2009 and his assets have been repossessed; it is not clear how many times he has had to meet with the bankruptcy officials. But he is married to Noreen who has presumably wealth in her own right, he keeps pension entitlements – it is not clear how wealthy the wife is, but I think it’s fair to say that John won’t be going hungry or homeless in the marriage anytime soon. It should be said that if the bankruptcy official considers John to have acted “dishonestly, or is blameworthy in some other way” it may impose restrictions on John for 2-15 years which means he has to declare his bankruptcy if getting credit and he might be disqualified from being a company director or take part in the “promotion, formation or management” of a company without getting permission from the court. But assuming John has been forthcoming, he should not be affected by any of that.

There are some links in the blog post that didn't get copied across.

ardmacha

Perhaps Sean Quinn can find a new living advising people on the process
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/quinn-applies-for-bankruptcy-527984.html

Dannyboy83

Quinn applies for bankruptcy

Sean Quinn has applied for bankruptcy in the High Court in Belfast this morning.

The Fermanagh-born businessman and founder of the Quinn Group has issued a statement in the past hour, saying he has done everything in his power to avoid taking what the calls the "drastic decision".

However he said he has been left with no alternative.

Mr Quinn and his family are estimated to owe €2.8bn to Anglo Irish Bank.

In a lengthy statement Mr Quinn accepted some of the blame for his downfall.

But he accused Anglo – under investigation by the fraud squad and a corporate watchdog in Ireland – of self-interest, lack of responsibility and bad lending.

“I am not in the business of pointing fingers or making excuses,” he said.

“However, recent history has shown that I, like thousands of others in Ireland, incorrectly relied upon the persons who guided Anglo and who wrongfully sought to portray a ’blue chip’ Irish banking sector.”

Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/quinn-applies-for-bankruptcy-527984.html#ixzz1dOrDZZpm

A point which seems to be frequently overlooked when we think back to the greed and madness of the Celtic Pyramid.

ardmacha

The difference between Sean Quinn and the average pensioner who had a few Anglo shares was that he had the resources to research his investments and enough money to be able to diversify them,.

swordofislam

Sean Quinn will regret this decision.
The law on sham transactions is much clearer in the UK than in the Irish Republic and the time limit on sham transactions is 5 years. The controversial Quinn children dividend payments were made in 2008.

Anyway it is a fresh start. Fair play to him in a way as long as he doesn't try to cheat the registrar.

Dannyboy83

ardmacha wrote: »

The difference between Sean Quinn and the average pensioner who had a few Anglo shares was that he had the resources to research his investments and enough money to be able to diversify them,.

Agreed, and "Enron: The Smartest Guys in the Room" has been out since 2005; but that doesn't negate his point.

rodento

looks like its backfired on at least two developers for trying to hide assets

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/financial-services/two-bankrupt-irish-developers-penalised-in-uk-for-hiding-assets-1.1405871

donegal11

rodento wrote: »

looks like its backfired on at least two developers for trying to hide assets

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/financial-services/two-bankrupt-irish-developers-penalised-in-uk-for-hiding-assets-1.1405871

I don't see how it backfired, did they get back the assets?A restriction from being a director for 7 years is hardly a great punishment for defrauding creditors.