The Means of Grace?

PatricaMcKay2

God has appointed certain channels for His Grace; in my understanding they are Baptism, the Sacrament of the Altar and the Bible, in particular the New Testament. All these means are necessary (under usual circumstances) and support each other, and without the others do not work to the same extent (obviously Communion would be highly dangerous for the unBaptized to take). What are other people's views on this issue?

lmaopml

Speaking from a Catholic perspective, we would view the sacraments as both signs and instruments of God's grace. There are seven sacraments.

I would agree that Baptism and the Eucharist, from a Catholic perspective, are imperative to saving grace - and perhaps the most commonly understood too in wider Christianity - and the most heatedly debated..lol. That doesn't negate that the others are equally important, however not everybody gets 'married' lol...and it's not necessary to salvation.

Sacred Scripture is not viewed as a 'sacrament' from a Catholic perspective - It's God's word and instruction and promise from which we learn of the grace of God as his people, and where the sacraments are derived from in his church.

That's kind of a lay and not very up on everything Catholic view. Hope it helps.

PatricaMcKay2

lmaopml wrote: »

Sacred Scripture is not viewed as a 'sacrament' from a Catholic perspective - It's God's word and instruction and promise from which we learn of the grace of God as his people, and where the sacraments are derived from in his church.

I didnt use the word Sacrament, but I think it should be clear from people's experience that Grace comes to us through reading or hearing the Scriptures.

lmaopml

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

I didnt use the word Sacrament, but I think it should be clear from people's experience that Grace comes to us through reading or hearing the Scriptures.

Apologies Patricia you didn't - rather a channel of grace. Sorry..

homer911

Ultimately there is only one means of God's Grace - the Holy Spirit

PatricaMcKay2

homer911 wrote: »

Ultimately there is only one means of God's Grace - the Holy Spirit

Surely the Holy Spirit is God's Grace itself and not a means by which It reaches mankind?

homer911

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

Surely the Holy Spirit is God's Grace itself and not a means by which It reaches mankind?

actually, I would think its both

The Holy Spirit is God's gift to mankind, which is an expression of God's Grace, it is also the means through which we experience all of God's Grace - although I'm open to debate...

cybercellesta

Catholics believe that there are 2 types of Grace, Actual and Sactifying (habitual) grace.

Actual Grace:

Actual grace is a supernatural help of God which enlightens our mind and strengthens our will to do good and to avoid evil.
Actual grace is transient; that is, it is given to us only when we need it, to perform a good act, or to overcome a temptation.

Sanctifying Grace:

By sanctifying grace, our souls are made holy and pleasing to God. It is an abiding or permanent grace, which we gain by baptism, and lose only by mortal sin.

C.C.C.

PatricaMcKay2

homer911 wrote: »

actually, I would think its both

The Holy Spirit is God's gift to mankind, which is an expression of God's Grace, it is also the means through which we experience all of God's Grace - although I'm open to debate...

But the question is how is Grace communicated to us in such a way that It unites us with God and saves us?

Obviously God is present everywhere, but He is not present in the unBaptized after the same manner that He is present within the Baptized, no?

homer911

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

But the question is how is Grace communicated to us in such a way that It unites us with God and saves us?

Obviously God is present everywhere, but He is not present in the unBaptized after the same manner that He is present within the Baptized, no?

No argument here - the existence of the gift of grace is not contingent on the gift being accepted, but if it is accepted, it will certainly change the receiver

PatricaMcKay2

cybercellesta wrote: »

Sanctifying Grace:By sanctifying grace, our souls are made holy and pleasing to God. It is an abiding or permanent grace, which we gain by baptism, and lose only by mortal sin.

If this is the case that mortal sin destroys Baptismal Grace they why does the RCC not teach repentant mortal sinners must be Baptized again?

Also if this Grace is gained via Baptism according to the CCC why does it also teach that unBaptized infants can enter the Kingdom of the Heavens?

cybercellesta

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

If this is the case that mortal sin destroys Baptismal Grace they why does the RCC not teach repentant mortal sinners must be Baptized again?

As per The Apostles Creed, We Catholics acknowledge one baptism for the forgivenss of sins. We regain Sanctifying Grace after sinning by repenting of our sins and through the Sacrament of Reconciliation (Confession), we are absolved of our sins through the Ministry of the Church. (John 20:23)

Also if this Grace is gained via Baptism according to the CCC why does it also teach that unBaptized infants can enter the Kingdom of the Heavens?

The Catholic Church teaches not only baptism by water, but that there is baptism of blood and baptism of desire.

Baptism of Desire

PatricaMcKay2

cybercellesta wrote: »

The Catholic Church teaches not only baptism by water, but that there is baptism of blood and baptism of desire.

Baptism of blood involves martyrdom, and Baptism of desire involves concious desire.

cybercellesta

I would like to think that Jesus being all Powerful, all Merciful and loves all, would grant to those infants who never committed any actual sin, the grace of redemption.

PatricaMcKay2

cybercellesta wrote: »

I would like to think that Jesus being all Powerful, all Merciful and loves all, would grant to those infants who never committed any actual sin, the grace of redemption.

The Bible says we are estranged from the womb.

Did you ever consider by cutting life short He is sparing them the actual pain of hell that they would have merited if they had gone on to live longer and so manifests His mercy as well as His justice?

tommy2bad

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

The Bible says we are estranged from the womb.

Did you ever consider by cutting life short He is sparing them the actual pain of hell that they would have merited if they had gone on to live longer and so manifests His mercy as well as His justice?

Wow, thats the weirdest thing I've ever come across, sort of a sick mix of predestination and mercy killing.

PatricaMcKay2

tommy2bad wrote: »

Wow, thats the weirdest thing I've ever come across, sort of a sick mix of predestination and mercy killing.

Uh, you must have lived a pretty sheltered life than.

That God fixes the span of each earthly life according to both His mercy and His Justice is basic theism.

hollypops

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

The Bible says we are estranged from the womb.

Did you ever consider by cutting life short He is sparing them the actual pain of hell that they would have merited if they had gone on to live longer and so manifests His mercy as well as His justice?

First of all, God does not send babies to hell, I think we create our own heaven and hell, the catholic church should be abolished and the billions there sent to feed the starving, thats what I call christiantity, not flying around waving in a pope motor. If anyone is interested, please read the third Jesus, obtainable in liabries, common sense. Catholism bred fear into children. Jesus didnt it was his alleged servants who spent their time abusing children, not just sexually but mentally and physically. I dont believe in hell, but I do believe in 'what goes around, comes around'

PatricaMcKay2

hollypops wrote: »

First of all, God does not send babies to hell, I think we create our own heaven and hell, the catholic church should be abolished and the billions there sent to feed the starving, thats what I call christiantity, not flying around waving in a pope motor. If anyone is interested, please read the third Jesus, obtainable in liabries, common sense. Catholism bred fear into children. Jesus didnt it was his alleged servants who spent their time abusing children, not just sexually but mentally and physically. I dont believe in hell, but I do believe in 'what goes around, comes around'

Firstly not Roman Catholic, secondly do you honestly believe that in this life what goes around comes around? It doesnt, good people suffer terrible things, evil people more often than not get away with being evil and have great lives.

hollypops

Yes I know good people suffer but I believe in the laws of Karma. I dont know the reason why good, kind people suffer. I have my own thoughts on it, not everything is black and white.

PatricaMcKay2

hollypops wrote: »

Yes I know good people suffer but I believe in the laws of Karma. I dont know the reason why good, kind people suffer. I have my own thoughts on it, not everything is black and white.

So do you or do you not believe in reincarnation?

tommy2bad

That God fixes the span of each earthly life according to both His mercy and His Justice is basic theism.

Er no it isn't, outside of TULIP Calvinism its heresy. Am I making a big presumption here that you are not Presbyterian ?

PatricaMcKay2

tommy2bad wrote: »

Er no it isn't, outside of TULIP Calvinism its heresy. Am I making a big presumption here that you are not Presbyterian ?

No, its held by all theists, obviously through His providence God can prevent someone dying at a particular moment, can He not?

God's providence is clear thought in both Old and New Testaments.

PatricaMcKay2

No Im not a Calvinist.

PatricaMcKay2

tommy2bad wrote: »

Er no it isn't, outside of TULIP Calvinism its heresy. Am I making a big presumption here that you are not Presbyterian ?

http://www.ewtn.com/library/theology/provid.htm

Excellent book on the subject by a Roman Catholic monk.

tommy2bad

So if I live to be a hundred is that a reward or a punishment? A sign of a patient God perhaps but nothing to do with me or God;s opinion of me I would venture.

God doesn't mess around with our free will, which your position requires.
We are not puppets or playmobile figures for Gods amusement. Judgment day is when we get judged not here on earth. Die first, then judgment then reward or punishment. For God to start short circuiting the system would be cheating. He may answer prayers and He may not but setting the life span as some kind of built in ticking clock which He knows and sets? I don't see it, its thinking from an age of fatalism.
We live as long as we can and die when we cant help it. Look at it this way, if its a mercy of God to take a baby because he is saving it from hell by preventing its sins, he has removed that persons free will and made a mockery of the potential for forgiveness and repentance and FFS what about Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot what did they do that kept them from Gods early death mercy.?
Cant go with you on this, thats not my God you're talking about.

PatricaMcKay2

tommy2bad wrote: »

God doesn't mess around with our free will

In a certain sense that is true, however the vast majority of us do not will the time of our death, that is something that He decides; there is a quote in the Old Testament about this but I cant remember where at the moment.

PatricaMcKay2

tommy2bad wrote: »

Stalin, Pol Pot what did they do that kept them from Gods early death mercy.?
Cant go with you on this, thats not my God you're talking about.

God's ways are beyond our full understanding, being not only finite beings but one's who's view points are distorted by sinful passions- what we do know is that He is working out all his judgements according to both His mercy and His justice. I would certainly say though that Stalin is in the Kingdom of Heavens now as do many, maybe most, of Russian believers.

hollypops

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

So do you or do you not believe in reincarnation?

I have an open mind about reincarnation, didnt Jesus come back from heaven after 3 days? I do not follow any 'religion' I am a child of God/Universe

Newsite

cybercellesta wrote: »

I would like to think that Jesus being all Powerful, all Merciful and loves all, would grant to those infants who never committed any actual sin, the grace of redemption.

All are born sinners. So it's not a case of committing any sin.

But, the difference is that an infant is not aware. And so they can't repent. And I'm sure/I would hope that God understands this!

This is why baptism is meant for adults, not babies who are not aware.

PatricaMcKay2

Newsite wrote: »

All are born sinners. So it's not a case of committing any sin.

But, the difference is that an infant is not aware. And so they can't repent. And I'm sure/I would hope that God understands this!

This is why baptism is meant for adults, not babies who are not aware.

So why does the Bible talk about whole households being Baptized?

Jesus said for the little children to come unto Him.

Its also important to remember that God is above time and that all His judgements are both just, merciful and infinitely wise.

PatricaMcKay2

Im surprised that no one noticed that I didnt mention prayer as a means of Grace.

Newsite

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

Its also important to remember that God is above time and that all His judgements are both just, merciful and infinitely wise.

True.

tommy2bad

From the OP

obviously Communion would be highly dangerous for the unBaptized to take

I know it's fatal for the undead but I never heard of it being dangerous for anyone else.:eek:

Grace is a gift, it doesn't need channels or methods. Grace cant be conjured or cajoled from God, it's freely given.
The things you mention don't act as mediums or sources of grace. They are visible evidence of Gods Grace, not the same thing.

Festus

hollypops wrote: »

I have an open mind about reincarnation, didnt Jesus come back from heaven after 3 days? I do not follow any 'religion' I am a child of God/Universe

No, on the third day He rose from the dead. That's resurrection, not reincarnation. Reincarnation is defined as the soul inhabiting a new body.

PatricaMcKay2

No one coped that I didnt refer to prayer as a means of Grace?

Newsite

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

No one coped that I didnt refer to prayer as a means of Grace?

Because it is not required as such? For 'Salvation is of the heart' (Romans 10:10).

"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.” (Acts 10:43)

PatricaMcKay2

Newsite wrote: »

Because it is not required as such? For 'Salvation is of the heart' (Romans 10:10).

“But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." (Romans 4:5)

Well because prayer is something that we do ourselves, while as the Bible and he Sacraments are God coming to us with a large degree objectivity. We have a certainity about the Bible and the Sacraments which we dont have about prayer.

But this is a point of disagreement between the Reformed and "Lutherans"/Evangelical Catholics; the Reformed believe that prayer is a means of Grace.

PatricaMcKay2

Newsite wrote: »

Because it is not required as such? For 'Salvation is of the heart' (Romans 10:10).

"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.” (Acts 10:43)

Where is the line about whoever calls on the Name of the Lord will be saved?

Certainly prayer is necessary, its us reaching out to God, but its not God coming to us so to speak. Prayer is a product of the Holy Spirit working on people though, as no one can say that Jesus is Lord but by the Holy Spirit.

lmaopml

I imagine prayer is required Newsite, certainly if the Apostles asked Jesus how to pray, then prayer is a way of communing with God, and he answered them how to pray....

However, the 'Lords prayer' shouldn't be empty words, and yes, if said with sincerity of heart I believe we are given strenght to persevere in Grace when we pray. Prayer and faith can move mountains - or so they say - I also believe from a Catholic perspective that we can reject the gift of Grace, and very often return the gift unopened and unexamined.

PatricaMcKay2

lmaopml wrote: »

I imagine prayer is required Newsite, certainly if the Apostles asked Jesus how to pray, then prayer is a way of communing with God, and he answered them how to pray....

However, the 'Lords prayer' shouldn't be empty words, and yes, if said with sincerity of heart I believe we are given strenght to persevere in Grace when we pray. Prayer and faith can move mountains - or so they say - I also believe from a Catholic perspective that we can reject the gift of Grace, and very often return the gift unopened and unexamined.

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

KJV.

For, with the heart, we believe unto justice; but, with the mouth, confession is made unto salvation

Douay Rheims.

Romans 10:10.

So yes you do have a point.

cybercellesta

It's important that we pray from the heart, Jesus lamented that "they honor me with the lip, but their hearts are far from me." [Matt :15:8]


The CC teaches that God chooses visible signs to communicate His Sanctifying Grace to us, such as the Holy Sacraments.

http://louvation.com/catholic-mission/catholic-formation/sacrament-effective-and-visible-sign-of-gods-grace

Newsite

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

Well because prayer is something that we do ourselves, while as the Bible and he Sacraments are God coming to us with a large degree objectivity.

We may do it ourselves, but unless it comes from the heart they are just words.

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

We have a certainity about the Bible and the Sacraments which we dont have about prayer.

This is why I said that while prayer can be great in and of itself, it isn't a requirement per se. If we don't have that certainty in our own heart - that realisation that Jesus is Lord - then prayer amounts to just words. Therefore, 'salvation is of the heart', i.e: "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness.."

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

But this is a point of disagreement between the Reformed and "Lutherans"/Evangelical Catholics; the Reformed believe that prayer is a means of Grace.

As per the above.

Romans 10:9-10 is all we need. It also ties in to the first commandment - love thy God with all thy soul'. If you don't come to realise and believe with your heart - realising your own sin and that you are hopeless on your own - you have no means of receiving Grace.

Newsite

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

Prayer is a product of the Holy Spirit working on people though, as no one can say that Jesus is Lord but by the Holy Spirit.

True, where it is of the heart.

Newsite

lmaopml wrote: »

I imagine prayer is required Newsite, certainly if the Apostles asked Jesus how to pray, then prayer is a way of communing with God, and he answered them how to pray....

However, the 'Lords prayer' shouldn't be empty words, and yes, if said with sincerity of heart I believe we are given strenght to persevere in Grace when we pray. Prayer and faith can move mountains - or so they say - I also believe from a Catholic perspective that we can reject the gift of Grace, and very often return the gift unopened and unexamined.

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

KJV.

For, with the heart, we believe unto justice; but, with the mouth, confession is made unto salvation

Douay Rheims.

Romans 10:10.

So yes you do have a point.

"and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation" - not just meaning private prayer however, but proclaiming that Jesus is Lord to yourself and everyone else.

Newsite

cybercellesta wrote: »

It's important that we pray from the heart, Jesus lamented that "they honor me with the lip, but their hearts are far from me." [Matt :15:8]

Agreed...

cybercellesta wrote: »

The CC teaches that God chooses visible signs to communicate His Sanctifying Grace to us, such as the Holy Sacraments.

http://louvation.com/catholic-mission/catholic-formation/sacrament-effective-and-visible-sign-of-gods-grace

But would not agree with that. Least of all this part: "The seven sacraments are the necessary means to attain salvation; they are the Lord's real presence that reaches us through our senses".

tommy2bad

Newsite wrote: »

Agreed...




But would not agree with that. Least of all this part: "The seven sacraments are the necessary means to attain salvation; they are the Lord's real presence that reaches us through our senses".

I think that bit you quoted is a bit misleading or poorly worded. It isn't intended to say that the seven sacraments are exclusivity the means of salvation, rather that they are means that we can rely on as certain. No one would say that they decide how God operates just that they are sure of 'this much'.

Newsite

tommy2bad wrote: »

I think that bit you quoted is a bit misleading or poorly worded. It isn't intended to say that the seven sacraments are exclusivity the means of salvation, rather that they are means that we can rely on as certain. No one would say that they decide how God operates just that they are sure of 'this much'.

It doesn't mention exclusivity though - just 'necessary'. As in 'needed'. But as we know, man-made doctrines and practices such as those of the RCC cannot lead to God.

"Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?"

"Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:

These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.

They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men."

gimmebroadband

Newsite wrote: »

It doesn't mention exclusivity though - just 'necessary'. As in 'needed'. But as we know, man-made doctrines and practices such as those of the RCC cannot lead to God.

"Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?"

"Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:

These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.

They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men."

From the RC perspective that applies to the 'reformers and schismatics, after all who do you think put together the canon of the Holy Scriptures? Jesus said not one iota was to be changed or removed from Scriptures, and what do you think Protestants did, they removed books from the bible with no Heavenly Authority to do so. It was done to shore up their own warped interpretations of scripture, the same way the Jews did in 70 AD, as the scriptures showed that Jesus Is the Christ, and they denied Him.

Our core beliefs hasn't changed for over 2000 years. Jesus also said, what is bound on earth is also bound in heaven, and He passed on All Authority to His Church, the RCC.

We are going OT, we were asked to share our belief on what grace means, and you come in and bash the Catholic Church on their belief. There is a Protestant/Catholic thread for that!

Newsite

gimmebroadband wrote: »

From the RC perspective that applies to the 'reformers and schismatics, after all who do you think put together the canon of the Holy Scriptures? Jesus said not one iota was to be changed or removed from Scriptures, and what do you think Protestants did, they removed books from the bible with no Heavenly Authority to do so. It was done to shore up their own warped interpretations of scripture, the same way the Jews did in 70 AD, as the scriptures showed that Jesus Is the Christ, and they denied Him.

Our core beliefs hasn't changed for over 2000 years. Jesus also said, what is bound on earth is also bound in heaven, and He passed on All Authority to His Church, the RCC.

We are going OT, we were asked to share our belief on what grace means, and you come in and bash the Catholic Church on their belief. There is a Protestant/Catholic thread for that!

I'm not seeking to 'bash' for its own sake as clearly it was relevant to the assertion of the previous poster (tommy)!

The RCC is not His church - it's a man-made church founded on the tradition of man, idolatrous to the last. Where do you even get that from?

But yes you are right in that there is potential for getting off-topic here!

PatricaMcKay2

gimmebroadband wrote: »

Our core beliefs hasn't changed for over 2000 years. Jesus also said, what is bound on earth is also bound in heaven, and He passed on All Authority to His Church, the RCC.

We are going OT, we were asked to share our belief on what grace means, and you come in and bash the Catholic Church on their belief. There is a Protestant/Catholic thread for that!

No the OP is not asking about what Grace means (though that would be an interesting topic) but what are the means or channels of Grace.

Secondly you would have to define what is and what isnt a core belief given that Papal infallibility and the Immaculate Conception which are now dogmas of the RCC didnt exist in the first thousand years of Christianity (which is why groups like the Copts and Assyrians dont hold them). Clearly also the Old Testament Church had those placed vested in authority, yet the Logos accused them plenty of times during His time on earth of over stepping their authority.....Do we have any evidence that people in the New Testament cannot over step their authority? Is there no middle ground between Anabaptist anarchism and Roman Authoritarianism?