Libya. Ghost-town of Tawergha. Apartheid and Executions of Blacks.

lagente

Tawergha , aka blackiestown (population 24,200 in 2006) , in North Libya, has undergone Apartheid, and Murder.
ALL blacks are now kicked out of their town by the rebels, their lives torn apart.
They're in bombed up CAMPS the military used now.
compensation for them? NAH, Why? They're blacks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-E-CJguDnZ4

It seems that enough people in Libya, unlike us, actually realize that while some talk about going to a war crimes court, for dealing with your enemies, such as mercenerie blacks, that theres really little point in all that decent
civilised sh1t, . . . . .WHEN YOU CAN MAKE YOUR OWN ONE!
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=02a_1301531604 (tough to watch public violent beheading execution video, you've been warned)
yeah theyre blacks being murdered in front of a cheering crowd with their . . . .hip expencive cameraphones which give the crowd an air of sophistication and a modern day approach to life, wouldn't you agree?

Jonny7

lagente wrote: »

Tawergha , aka blackiestown (population 24,200 in 2006) , in North Libya, has undergone Apartheid, and Murder.
ALL blacks are now kicked out of their town, their lives torn apart.
They're in bombed up CAMPS the military used now.
compensation for them? NAH, Why? They're blacks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-E-CJguDnZ4

It seems that enough people in Libya, unlike us, actually realize that while some talk about going to a war crimes court, for dealing with your enemies, such as mercenerie blacks, that theres really little point in all that decent
civilised sh1t, . . . . .WHEN YOU CAN MAKE YOUR OWN ONE!
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=02a_1301531604 (tough to watch public violent beheading execution video, you've been warned)
yeah theyre blacks being murdered in front of a cheering crowd with their . . . .hip expencive cameraphones which give the crowd an air of sophistication and a modern day approach to life, wouldn't you agree?

Its horrific, sadly innocent immigrants are getting caught up in it.

This was not happening in the country before the protests, but as the violence flared up, there was a mass exodus of immigrants and foreign workers from the country. At least one hundred thousand including Europeans, Americans, but mainly North Africans, etc.

Gaddafi recruited in sub-Saharan black mercenaries (noted for their brutality and compliance) to help "quell" the protests. Unfortunately this is the terrible backlash. Not just this, but 42 years of internal security, there will be a lot of revenge for the tortured and disappeared.

Its nasty, village mob justice.

mikemac

Very hard to make out what's going on in that execution

I thought this was a straightforward civil war, rebels against the establishment
Is there a religious element to it?

Were the mercenaries a different religion?
The mob crying Allahu Akbar as the prisoner is hanging there

nacho libre

So the Tuareg tribesmen, who fought for Gadaffi, and NTC rebels have something in common; a hatred of black Africans.
It's further evidence many of these fighters weren't fighting for a representative society to emerge post Gadaffi.

Nodin

This has been going on for months......

halkar

the devil you know is better than the devil you don't

Jonny7

nacho libre wrote: »

So the Tuareg tribesmen, who fought for Gadaffi, and NTC rebels have something in common; a hatred of black Africans.
It's further evidence many of these fighters weren't fighting for a representative society to emerge post Gadaffi.

Have you actually followed this conflict or are you just completely speculating ?

there were tens of thousands of black immigrants in the country before the uprising. Then weren't being lynched then. The current reprisals are because black mercenaries were being used against the Libyan people.

The protesters and rebels wanted rid of the dictator in their country, like the Tunisians, like the Egyptians, like the Syrians, like a dozen other countries in the region.

Hmm I wonder why they are being put under the microscope so much, anything to do with the "West" being involved?

AlekSmart

Nodin wrote: »

This has been going on for months......

Months indeed...oddly enough the initial reports began to appear just about the same time as the "Popular Revolutionaries" against Gadaffi finally started to flex their NATO aided muscles.

Oddly enough "this" has never been an issue pre-revolution,due no doubt,to Gadaffi's brutal repression of his people....?

It's now the accepted logic to refer to the entirety of the "Black" African population of Libya as "Mercenaries"...however the vast majority of those people were gastarbeiter,working feverishly to complete the raft of Public Works projects which were ongoing in the country pre-popular revolution.....:(

Nodin

AlekSmart wrote: »

...........

Oddly enough "this" has never been an issue pre-revolution,due no doubt,to Gadaffi's brutal repression of his people....?

....because angry mobs weren't targeting every "black" they saw as being a mercenary, because he wasn't relying on them, because there wasn't a revolution.

AlekSmart wrote: »

It's now the accepted logic to refer to the entirety of the "Black" African population of Libya as "Mercenaries"...

By who?

TOMASJ

It seems that enough people in Libya, unlike us, actually realize that while some talk about going to a war crimes court, for dealing with your enemies, such as mercenerie blacks, that theres really little point in all that decent
civilised sh1t, . . . . .WHEN YOU CAN MAKE YOUR OWN ONE!
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=02a_1301531604 (tough to watch public violent beheading execution video, you've been warned)
yeah theyre blacks being murdered in front of a cheering crowd with their . . . .hip expencive cameraphones which give the crowd an air of sophistication and a modern day approach to life, wouldn't you agree?

These clowns baying for the death of a black man in Lybia,

Will find in a few years time , " if things dont go the way the Nato killers" (Oil contracts) that this and a lot of other videos will be used as evidence of war crimes against innocent citizens.

nacho libre

Jonny7 wrote: »

Have you actually followed this conflict or are you just completely speculating ?

there were tens of thousands of black immigrants in the country before the uprising. Then weren't being lynched then. The current reprisals are because black mercenaries were being used against the Libyan people.

So you keep saying .While some of the people who fought on his side may well have been black mercenaries
Others that came to fight for Gadaffi were Tuareg tribesmen from Niger and other regions close to Libya.
It may well be the case that Gadaffi kept a lid on bigotry and racism against black people in Libya. As he did on Islamic extremism.
So these reprisals might not simply be a case of revenge against black mercenaries as you make out. Since if this were the case we should be hearing about reprisals against Tuareg tribesmen captured in Libya.

Brown Bomber

Jonny7 wrote: »

Its horrific, sadly innocent immigrants are getting caught up in it.

Caught up in it? You don't get caught up in ethnic cleansing when it's your own ethnic group being cleansed.

Jonny7 wrote: »

This was not happening in the country before the protests,

Yes it was. You are apparently unaware of the anti-immigration riots of 2000 where over a hundred immigrants were killed according to the EU?

Jonny7 wrote: »

but as the violence flared up, there was a mass exodus of immigrants and foreign workers from the country. At least one hundred thousand including Europeans, Americans, but mainly North Africans, etc.

Yes, the white immigrants, but not the West Africans who were there illegally and didn't have papers so couldn't leave.

Jonny7 wrote: »

Gaddafi recruited in sub-Saharan black mercenaries

Again no. Amnesty International who have investigators on the ground have stated that there is little to no evidence of this.

Jonny7 wrote: »

(noted for their brutality and compliance) to help "quell" the protests. Unfortunately this is the terrible backlash. Not just this, but 42 years of internal security, there will be a lot of revenge for the tortured and disappeared.

Do you think that Libyan people are stupid? That they didn't notice that one in every 6 of their population were already immigrants? Why would they target black people with no connection to Gadaffi's regime if the rebels were fighting for freedom and justice?

Jonny7 wrote: »

Its nasty, village mob justice.

No. It's NATO sponsored lynchings , ethnic cleansing and humanrightsinvestigations.org goes as far to call it genocide


But your free to believe whatever old nonsense you want. Such as the viagra-fuelled rape missions, Gadaffi killing his own soliders for failing to shoot on the protestors etc In fact I can give you the link of a guy in Scotland who pretends to be an oppressed Syrian lesbian if you like?

Denerick

Brown Bomber wrote: »

No. It's NATO sponsored lynchings , ethnic cleansing and humanrightsinvestigations.org goes as far to call it genocide

Now all we're missing is a musical ensemble, gigantic trumpets, and a fainting obese Italian woman. Could you possibly be more exaggerated or melodramatic about this?

But your free to believe whatever old nonsense you want. Such as the viagra-fuelled rape missions, Gadaffi killing his own soliders for failing to shoot on the protestors etc In fact I can give you the link of a guy in Scotland who pretends to be an oppressed Syrian lesbian if you like?

I know conspiracy theories offer a kind of comfort for disjointed minds, and that Gadaffi was just a nice, misunderstood gent and all... But how you link the academic who pretended to be a Syrian Lesbian on the internet with the war crimes that Gadaffi allegedly carried out is curious to say the least. I assume you're creating a link with what what some loner (albeit a creative loner) did on the internet with a blog and with what many thousands of eye witnesses and media organisations alledge the Gadaffi regime carried out on its own people?

Tell me, is it always the first instinct of conspiracy theorists to create casual links between anonymous bloggers and verifiable war crimes?

Brown Bomber

Denerick wrote: »

Now all we're missing is a musical ensemble, gigantic trumpets, and a fainting obese Italian woman. Could you possibly be more exaggerated or melodramatic about this?



I know conspiracy theories offer a kind of comfort for disjointed minds, and that Gadaffi was just a nice, misunderstood gent and all... But how you link the academic who pretended to be a Syrian Lesbian on the internet with the war crimes that Gadaffi allegedly carried out is curious to say the least. I assume you're creating a link with what what some loner (albeit a creative loner) did on the internet with a blog and with what many thousands of eye witnesses and media organisations alledge the Gadaffi regime carried out on its own people?

Tell me, is it always the first instinct of conspiracy theorists to create casual links between anonymous bloggers and verifiable war crimes?

I shall report your post for abuse and not lower myself to your level. Otherwise I assume you are unaware that the story that was all over the media of the Libyan soliders who killed their own who wouldn't fire on protestors turned out to be a massacre by the rebels? Or that Amnesty International found no evidence of the mass rape policy.

Donatella Rovera, senior crisis response adviser for Amnesty, who was in Libya for three months after the start of the uprising, said "we have not found any evidence or a single victim of rape or a doctor who knew about somebody being raped".
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/libya/news/article.cfm?l_id=467&objectid=10734384

The linking of the these fraudelent events with the fake Syrian lesbian should be obvious.

Victor

The poeple who left in the months after the civil war started were predominantly guest workers and their families.

The recent spate of killings has been based on the assumption that any black person is a mercenary, including people who have been longterm Libyan residents.

nacho libre wrote: »

So you keep saying .While some of the people who fought on his side may well have been black mercenaries
Others that came to fight for Gadaffi were Tuareg tribesmen from Niger and other regions close to Libya.
It may well be the case that Gadaffi kept a lid on bigotry and racism against black people in Libya. As he did on Islamic extremism.
So these reprisals might not simply be a case of revenge against black mercenaries as you make out. Since if this were the case we should be hearing about reprisals against Tuareg tribesmen captured in Libya.

Taureg people, given their location / origin vary in complection from Mediterranean to West African Black:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuareg_people

http://www.google.ie/search?hl=en&q=Tuareg&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=1501l1501l0l3287l1l1l0l0l0l0l162l162l0.1l1l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&biw=1280&bih=562&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi

I'm not sure that a lid was kept on bigotry in pre-war days - much of the faction ifghting is down to tribalism and how certain tribes were favoured over others.

dsmythy

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Again no. Amnesty International who have investigators on the ground have stated that there is little to no evidence of this.

No. It's NATO sponsored lynchings , ethnic cleansing and humanrightsinvestigations.org goes as far to call it genocide

Do yourself a favour and stop linking to humanrightsinvestigations.org. However I'd like to see links to what Amnesty are saying.

Denerick

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I shall report your post for abuse and not lower myself to your level.

How noble of you... God the melodrama is reaching critical mass here, very soon two 18th century gentlemen are going to barge in and demand a duel to satisfy the assault on their honour.

Otherwise I assume you are unaware that the story that was all over the media of the Libyan soliders who killed their own who wouldn't fire on protestors turned out to be a massacre by the rebels? Or that Amnesty International found no evidence of the mass rape policy.

You're discussing particulars when I'm discussing generalities. You would have us believe that the Libyan rebels are western backed neo colonialists and that all of this is merely a ploy for western oil interests. Again, a very comforting thought if your mind is disjointed and willing to lap up conspiracy theories but those of us in the real world require a little more... evidence? Rather than 'deduction'. The problem with a conspiracy theorist's logical deduction is that they conclude precisely what they want to conclude from the available evidence.

Donatella Rovera, senior crisis response adviser for Amnesty, who was in Libya for three months after the start of the uprising, said "we have not found any evidence or a single victim of rape or a doctor who knew about somebody being raped".
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/libya/news/article.cfm?l_id=467&objectid=10734384

The linking of the these fraudelent events with the fake Syrian lesbian should be obvious.

Not a single rape? That high profile 'breakthrough' by the New Zealand Herald has surely gripped the world to rights and has broken down all of our mere preconceptions of what happened in Libya. Its lucky that there are some people who are able to believe absolutely everything they see, read and hear providing it chimes with their preconcieved narrative...

I'm afraid the link of an academic loners exploits on a blog and mass rape in Libya exists only in your troubled and confused mind.

walshb

No matter how bad the colonel was, I just wonder will his replacemets be any better. Maybe it's a case now of out of the frying pan and into.....

Brown Bomber

dsmythy wrote: »

Do yourself a favour and stop linking to humanrightsinvestigations.org.

Why? Do you deny the lynchings of black people in Libya or do you simply not want to hear about it?

dsmythy wrote: »

However I'd like to see links to what Amnesty are saying.

Diana Eltahawy, Amnesty International, North Africa Researcher speaking from Tripoli and referring to the black mercenaries as "rumours", "largely unfounded".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDRbdXp0Du4

And here is Human Rights Watch for good measure on the same issue in the East of the country.

HRW: No Mercanaries In Eastern Libya

Human Rights Watch says it has seen no evidence of mercenaries being used in eastern Libya. This contradicts widespread earlier reports in the international media that African soldiers had been flown in to fight rebels in the region as Muammar Gaddafi sought to keep control.
In an interview with Radio Netherlands Worldwide in Libya, Peter Bouckaert from Human Rights Watch said he had conducted research and found no proof of mercenaries being used. Investigator Bouckaert, who has been in the region for two weeks, told RNW that he had been to Al Bayda after receiving reports that 156 mercenaries had been arrested there.
Black Libyans
The town is to the east of the city Benghazi and is also in the hands of the anti-Gaddafi protesters.
The rights investigator said that what he found there were, in fact, 156 soldiers from the south of Libya and not from another African country. After talking to them he found out that they were all black Libyans of African descent. The soldiers have since been released by the protesters.
According to Bouckaert, the support of the black southern Libyans for the Gaddafi regime is explicable as Gaddafi fought to counter discrimination against this group in Libyan society.
In the west
RNW's Mohammed Abdulrahman, who interviewed Bouckaert in Benghazi, says that the fact that there are few economic opportunities in the south also leads to southern Libyans joining the army.
HRW has so far only conducted research in the east of the country which is under the control of the protesters, but it says it could well be the case that reports of mercenaries being used in the areas still under government control in the west are also inaccurate.
Unverified
International media report that the mercenaries are gathering in the central southern town of Sabha, known to be loyal to Gaddafi, and are being sent out from there.
Our reporter says the southern location of the town means it is possible that the soldiers here are also from the south of the country and not African mercenaries as claimed in the international media. As the area is under control of Gaddafi's forces this cannot be verified.

Brown Bomber

Denerick wrote: »

You're discussing particulars when I'm discussing generalities. You would have us believe that the Libyan rebels are western backed neo colonialists and that all of this is merely a ploy for western oil interests. Again, a very comforting thought if your mind is disjointed and willing to lap up conspiracy theories but those of us in the real world require a little more... evidence? Rather than 'deduction'. The problem with a conspiracy theorist's logical deduction is that they conclude precisely what they want to conclude from the available evidence.

Strawmen and ad-homs. Not actually interested in your unpleasantness so I'll report again and hope something happens this time.

Denerick wrote: »

Not a single rape? That high profile 'breakthrough' by the New Zealand Herald has surely gripped the world to rights and has broken down all of our mere preconceptions of what happened in Libya. Its lucky that there are some people who are able to believe absolutely everything they see, read and hear providing it chimes with their preconcieved narrative...

More nastyness. Anyway, it wasn't a "breakthrough" by the NZ Herald it was reporting on the results of an Amnesty International investigation, which you've just conveniently ignored. It wasn't even first published in the NZ Herald but the Independent and was written by award winning journalist Alexander Cockburn for the London Independent.

Denerick

Why do you get so easily offended? I'm making the point that you're conveniently listening to the evidence which supports your predrawn conclusions and ignoring the ones that don't - the classic reasoning style of the conspiracy theorist. Do you actually deny this or are you just getting offended because you enjoy the thought of being some kind of oppressed underdog, bravely speaking truth to power? (Another trait of the conspiracy theorist, but lets not go there)

Brown Bomber

Denerick wrote: »

Why do you get so easily offended? I'm making the point that you're conveniently listening to the evidence which supports your predrawn conclusions and ignoring the ones that don't - the classic reasoning style of the conspiracy theorist. Do you actually deny this or are you just getting offended because you enjoy the thought of being some kind of oppressed underdog, bravely speaking truth to power? (Another trait of the conspiracy theorist, but lets not go there)

Can't help yourself can you? Is it easily offended to be accused of having a mental illness repeatedly? Anway, I'm not interested in defending myself from your strawman arguments.

AlekSmart

http://www.rnw.nl/africa/article/hrw-no-mercenaries-eastern-libya-0

The link posted by Brown Bomber is quite interesting.

I note that HRW's Peter Bouckaert has been filing some far more reasoned reports from Libya than has been the norm from other individuals.

Almost from the begininning of this campaign,the awful beastliness of Col Gadaffi and particularly his willingness to pay non-Libyans to murder his own citizens has been a central plank of the entire uprising.

It has always smacked to me of invention and malice and still does.

To see Mr Bouckaert refer to Col Gadaffi having "Fought to counter discrimination against Blacks in Libyan society" evokes a sense of great sadness in me as I struggle to match this progressive attitude up to the "Mad Dog" Cruel Despotic Evil Dictator image so beloved of U.N./NATO and the Rebel factions now reigning triumphant.

If I were Peter Bouckaert I would be taking a little more care with my personal security measures,as if this line of investigation proceeds much further it may be judged to be counter to the aims of the Revolution .......Libya is now far from being under the rule of ANY law,so he who shoots first calls the rest of the shots too.

Border-Rat

After reading the OP, I think its time for France to start bombing NTC suspects. :rolleyes:

dsmythy

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Why? Do you deny the lynchings of black people in Libya or do you simply not want to hear about it?

humanrightsinvestigations has a NATO/rebel bashing editorial so you can't believe a word it says. Which is why I'm now checking out the Amnesty links you have given us.

Brown Bomber

dsmythy wrote: »

humanrightsinvestigations has a NATO/rebel bashing editorial so you can't believe a word it says. Which is why I'm now checking out the Amnesty links you have given us.

Similarly and using that logic the New York Times, for example has an anti-Gadaffi editorial so therefore you can't believe a word it says and we if extend that to all non-objective news sources there won't be many words, if any left to believe.

Brown Bomber

AlekSmart wrote: »

Almost from the begininning of this campaign,the awful beastliness of Col Gadaffi and particularly his willingness to pay non-Libyans to murder his own citizens has been a central plank of the entire uprising.

It has always smacked to me of invention and malice and still does.

I think this is a key point. For example, in the formative days a large part of pleading by the rebels to the international community for a no-fly-zone was to stop the "black mercenaries" flying in. I think it is reckless propoganda which has continued throughout the war; inside and outside Libya which has led to black civilians being rounded up, even dragged from hospital beds, tortured killed and ethnically cleansed.

The whole official narrative has been a battle between Gadaffi and his corrupt henchmen vs the unified people of Libya. Black immigrants and indeed black Libyans fighting out of sense of loyalty to Gadaffi or to protect their own way of life doesn't fit this narrative and lynchings and other racially motivated crimes are a result of this.

dsmythy

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Similarly and using that logic the New York Times, for example has an anti-Gadaffi editorial so therefore you can't believe a word it says and we if extend that to all non-objective news sources there won't be many words, if any left to believe.

A newspaper can't afford to be stung lying through it's teeth. Some random unaffiliated blog doesn't care.

Victor

The are black Africans, there are black Libyans, there is tribal warfare, there are mercenaries*. Whether the three coincide seems to be another matter.


* Libya has long used foreign pilots. In the war with Chad, East German pilots bombed a French airfield. And like many Middle Eastern countries Libya has been very dependent of foreign skills.

WakeUp

Denerick wrote: »

I know conspiracy theories offer a kind of comfort for disjointed minds,

You have hit the nail on the head there alright. Reminds me of George Bush and Tony Blair and their delusional conspiracy theory something about WMD and Iraq if I remember correctly. Now that was the mother of all conspiracy theories two war criminals knee deep in blood pretending to be leaders of the "free" world. Kinda scary when you think that such powerful influential war criminals have such disjointed minds and are still among us and not behind bars where they belong. Crazy conspiracy theorists and their wacky "theories".

Tell me, is it always the first instinct of conspiracy theorists to create casual links between anonymous bloggers and verifiable war crimes?

.
Fire an email off to Colin Powell and his "sources". He should be able to help answer that for you.

With regard to the OP a more one side reporting of an international conflict on the ground I find hard to remember. We pretty much got one side of the battle considering it was a civil war hardly a fair and unbias documentation of events. The "rebels"/Islamists/Genuine fighters/terrorists had a free hand. If anything untoward is going on by these Western backed "rebels" dont expect to see it reported and talked about on the 6'O'clock news anytime soon. Who knows what sort of revenge/killing is being undertaken by the "rebels" at their whim and as is their want. Libya is a country full of "rebels" armed to the teeth with a free hand to kill. All sort of retribution ethnic cleansing could be happening but you certainly wont see it on Sky,CNN,BBC,RTE, those trusted bastions of free and non partial reporting. So the thinking goes if it isnt reported by an "official" source well then of course it cant be true and should be disregarded as "false". Who knows what is going over there in Libya at the moment answer is we just dont.

Alopex

As much as I hate gaddafi, the NTC sound a lot worse

AlekSmart

Alopex wrote: »

As much as I hate gaddafi, the NTC sound a lot worse

Alopex,could I ask why you "Hate" Gadaffi ?

Nodin

AlekSmart wrote: »

http://www.rnw.nl/africa/article/hrw-no-mercenaries-eastern-libya-0

The link posted by Brown Bomber is quite interesting.

I note that HRW's Peter Bouckaert has been filing some far more reasoned reports from Libya than has been the norm from other individuals.

Almost from the begininning of this campaign,the awful beastliness of Col Gadaffi and particularly his willingness to pay non-Libyans to murder his own citizens has been a central plank of the entire uprising.

..............

The uprising was prompted by his reactions to protests, which in turn were prompted by a massacre of 1,200 prisoners.

AlekSmart wrote:

........evokes a sense of great sadness in me as I struggle to match this progressive attitude up to the "Mad Dog" Cruel Despotic Evil Dictator image so beloved of U.N./NATO and the Rebel factions now reigning triumphant.

So instead of the populist image resulting from holding up the bad and ignoring the good, you take the contrary approach and hold up the good and ignore the bad.

AlekSmart

Nodin wrote: »

The uprising was prompted by his reactions to protests, which in turn were prompted by a massacre of 1,200 prisoners.

So instead of the populist image resulting from holding up the bad and ignoring the good, you take the contrary approach and hold up the good and ignore the bad.

Nodin,I'm quite happy to state my own views on Gadaffi and his tenure at Libya's helm.

I've never ignored the fact that by our standards he was a nasty-piece-of-work,and not one who would pass muster in the civilized western world.

However,I readily accept that I'm highlighting the "good" as you call it,if only because I'm being asked to accept a quite obviously impossible situation that Muammar Gadaffi was only a force for evil and had no interest in his own peoples welfare....and guess wha Joe ?...I don't accept that proposition.

The facts of the 1996 Abu Salim Prison Massacre remain to this day the subject of great debate and I have no great confidence that this thread will alter that.

For what it's worth I'm simply researching it as much as I realistically can,and already finding that there's a context to it all,which sets it apart from being just another everyday Gadaffi extermination excercise....

The Human Rights Watch description is comprehensive and I would suggest largely credible,whilst admitting that anomalies and contradictions do exist.

http://www.hrw.org/legacy/english/docs/2006/06/28/libya13636.htm

Whilst Abu Salim remains the standard of Gadaffi's brutality most waved aloft,it is of itself not clear and definitive proof of Gadaffi's,by now gargantuan brutality.

Abu-Salim,was after all a Prison......one which contained some of Gadaffi's most vehement opponents as well as a general prison population very similar in make up to any of our own such facilities..

Lads like this.......

http://projects.nytimes.com/guantanamo/detainees/557-abu-sufian-ibrahim-ahmed-hamuda-bin-qumu/documents/3/pages/645

It's not his alleged Al Quaieda links that interest me,but rather his military service back to 1979 and his convictions for various crimes including attempted rape,a criminal career he continued even after his release from the military.

However,Abu Salim and its history is about far more than one massacre in 1996,something which came about in the heightened atmopsphere folowing serious break-outs in July 1995,December1995,June 1996 and July 2001.

In addition it can be argued that Gadaffi had more than enough evidence to keep him awake at night worrying about his personal safety....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2002/nov/10/uk.davidshayler

Amnesty International also have some work to display on the topic of Abu-Salim

http://www.amnesty.org.au/news/comments/346

The most pertinent of then issues I came across relating to the broader Abu-Salim context was the role played by Saif-Al-Islam Gadaffi in dealing with the issue in a very up-front manner indeed....

http://www.edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/africa/11/23/libya.vision/index.html

He (Saif-al-Islam) told CNN he did not find it hard to persuade his father of the need for dialogue, despite the fact that the group tried to kill him on several occasions. "He's a politician, he's a leader and he knows that it is very important to engage with those people because, like I said, one day we have to stop this process from being repeated all the time."

There is a wealth of material in the public domain relating to Libya and the Gadaffi's just as much as the Rebels.

I would recommend spending a few hours trawling through the myriad and then returning post-haste to the official line we are now having repeated endlessly on our broad media.

At the end of the day Nodin,you make your own call....for my part I'm not at the place where I can lay all of Libya's ills at the feet of it's executed ex leader....although the lack of information on the whereabouts and condition of Saif-al-Islam is beginning to become interesting in itself...

Alopex

AlekSmart wrote: »

Alopex,could I ask why you "Hate" Gadaffi ?

Innocent civillians. Semtex. AK47s. do the math

AlekSmart

Alopex wrote: »

Innocent civillians. Semtex. AK47s. do the math

Thats sound Alopex,although admittedly maths was never a strong suit of mine,so presumably,the Colonel is but one person on a very long hate list ?

Stanislaw Brebera......Mikhail Kalashnikov.....and just about every human being who has ever ruled over a collective of other human beings...?

Alopex

AlekSmart wrote: »

Thats sound Alopex,although admittedly maths was never a strong suit of mine,so presumably,the Colonel is but one person on a very long hate list ?

Stanislaw Brebera......Mikhail Kalashnikov.....and just about every human being who has ever ruled over a collective of other human beings...?

I'm from northern Ireland. Its more personal.

Assuming you are from the republic - are you aware the AK47 used to kill Jesrry McCabe was undoubtedly supplied by Gadaffi?

AlekSmart

Alopex wrote: »

I'm from northern Ireland. Its more personal.

Assuming you are from the republic - are you aware the AK47 used to kill Jesrry McCabe was undoubtedly supplied by Gadaffi?

From "The Republic" sure enough,however not having read the Garda report into Gda McCabes murder I just don't know where that particular weapon came from.

Both Republican and Loyalist factions have sourced weapons and ordinance from a wide variety of sources down through 3 decades of murder and mayhem.

I'm equally aware that the AR15 Armalite was an Uncle Sam product which the Republican movement made it's own of,even having it written into popular songs by the likes of The Police.

However, I fully accept your point regarding your own background,I just don't share your hatred of Gadaffi.

Brown Bomber

dsmythy wrote: »

. Which is why I'm now checking out the Amnesty links you have given us.

...Well?

nacho libre

Victor wrote: »

I'm not sure that a lid was kept on bigotry in pre-war days - much of the faction ifghting is down to tribalism and how certain tribes were favoured over others.

It's true he played tribes off each other. He did seem to stop a major outbreak of hostility between them during his time. It seems Nato is now being asked to extend its mandate in Libya because the NTC are worried because one of the largest tribes, The Warfalla, in Libya have threatened to launch an insurgency against the NTC after what what happened in Bin Walid and Sirte.

It will be interesting too see how many of these Gadaffi policies will be continued in the post-gadaffi Libya. Right- wing libertarians look away now!

1. Electricity in Libya is free for all its citizens.

2. Loans from banks are interest free.

3. All newlyweds in Libya received US$50 000 from the government to buy their first apartment.

4. Gaddafi's government built the Great Man-Made River project at a cost of US$27 billion to get water from the sea to make water available throughout the country.

5. Education and medical treatment were free in Libya. Before Gaddafi only 25 percent of Libyans were literate. Today the figure is 83 percent.

6. Should Libyans want to take up farming as a career, they would receive farming land, a farming house, equipment, seeds and livestock all for free.

7. If Libyans could not find the education or medical facilities they need inside Libya, the government funded them to go abroad for it - not only free but would also give them US$2 300 per month.

8. If a Libyan buys a car, the government subsidised 50 percent of the purchase price.

9. The price of petrol in Libya was $0.14 per liter, much ceaper than water.



10. Libya has no external debt and its reserves amount to $150 billion - now frozen globally.

11. If a Libyan is unable to get employment after graduation the state would pay the average salary of the profession as if he or she is employed.

12. A portion of Libyan oil sales was, credited directly to the bank accounts of all Libyan citizens.

13. A mother who gave birth received US$5 000


15. 25 percent of Libyans have a university degree

jonsnow

nacho libre wrote: »

It's true he played tribes off each other. He did seem to stop a major outbreak of hostility between them during his time. It seems Nato is now being asked to extend its mandate in Libya because the NTC are worried because one of the largest tribes, The Warfalla, in Libya have threatened to launch an insurgency against the NTC after what what happened in Bin Walid and Sirte.

It will be interesting too see how many of these Gadaffi policies will be continued in the post-gadaffi Libya. Right- wing libertarians look away now!

1. Electricity in Libya is free for all its citizens.

2. Loans from banks are interest free.

3. All newlyweds in Libya received US$50 000 from the government to buy their first apartment.

4. Gaddafi's government built the Great Man-Made River project at a cost of US$27 billion to get water from the sea to make water available throughout the country.

5. Education and medical treatment were free in Libya. Before Gaddafi only 25 percent of Libyans were literate. Today the figure is 83 percent.

6. Should Libyans want to take up farming as a career, they would receive farming land, a farming house, equipment, seeds and livestock all for free.

7. If Libyans could not find the education or medical facilities they need inside Libya, the government funded them to go abroad for it - not only free but would also give them US$2 300 per month.

8. If a Libyan buys a car, the government subsidised 50 percent of the purchase price.

9. The price of petrol in Libya was $0.14 per liter, much ceaper than water.



10. Libya has no external debt and its reserves amount to $150 billion - now frozen globally.

11. If a Libyan is unable to get employment after graduation the state would pay the average salary of the profession as if he or she is employed.

12. A portion of Libyan oil sales was, credited directly to the bank accounts of all Libyan citizens.

13. A mother who gave birth received US$5 000


15. 25 percent of Libyans have a university degree

I have to ask.If they had it that good why were they so dissatisfied?Does this have lessons for china-a good standard of living is not good enough for an educated population without political freedom!

AlekSmart

jonsnow wrote: »

I have to ask.If they had it that good why were they so dissatisfied?Does this have lessons for china-a good standard of living is not good enough for an educated population without political freedom!

Well Jonsnow,this is the nub of it for me...because in the earlier stages of this particular "popular" rebellion a significant chunk,perhaps even majority of "Ordinary" Libyans displayed a marked reluctance to rise up against their leader.

It took some 6 months before rebel forces actually possessed enough support to begin major military actions and that was only with substantial NATO oversight.

It can be considered that the real tipping point was the freezing of Gadaffi's monetary assets,ie:The assets of the Libyan State Bank,which made it impossible for him to maintain a functional apparatus of government.

Only when their wages and social payments were arbitrarly stopped by the USA/U.N. Financial interpretation of res 1973 did the "ordinary" Libyans begin to doubt Gadaffi's abilities.

Indeed,even right up to the day before his execution,streams of civillians leaving Sirte,were proclaiming their loyalty to Gadaffi at checkpoints on the escape routes...

I'm afraid that for a man supposedly despised by most of his people,Muammar Gadaffi continues to have an embarrassingly large number of admirers...I'd suggest that with time,quite a few more will begin to stick their heads over the parapet again.

lagente

Gunmen kill 5 of the Tawergha refugees in Janzour camp, Saturday night.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/02/06/us-libya-violence-idUSTRE81526T20120206

cyberhog

I remember last year Obama warned Gaddafi that "All attacks against civilians must stop" and that non-compliance would result in military action. Well Gaddafi got his comeuppance but as we know attacks against innocent civilians are still happening each and every day. But despite the evidence of ongoing torture, murder, and racial attacks being perpetrated by the NATO backed victors the Alliance no longer feels compelled to protect innocent civilians and all the humanitarian do-gooders have become eerily silent. It's clear they don't really care about civilians in Libya and I believe the same applies to Syria. Obama's feigned concern for civilians will never mask the evil of his ways.

lagente

7 confirmed dead now, not 5.

More expected to be dead.

Nodin

cyberhog wrote: »

...........Obama's feigned concern for civilians will never mask the evil of his ways.

....do please clarify. What is "the evil of his ways"?

lagente

To answer your question Nodin, yes I know there are Irish men (arab etc) gone to Syria recently that are Irish, and I assume they are not on holiday.

Nodin

lagente wrote: »

To answer your question Nodin, yes I know there are Irish men (arab etc) gone to Syria recently that are Irish, and I assume they are not on holiday.

?

Brown Bomber

Nodin wrote: »

....do please clarify. What is "the evil of his ways"?

Well, there's this for a start:

Obama terror drones: CIA tactics in Pakistan include targeting rescuers and funerals


But research by the Bureau has found that since Obama took office three years ago, between 282 and 535 civilians have been credibly reported as killed including more than 60 children. A three month investigation including eye witness reports has found evidence that at least 50 civilians were killed in follow-up strikes when they had gone to help victims. More than 20 civilians have also been attacked in deliberate strikes on funerals and mourners. The tactics have been condemned by leading legal experts.
http://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/2012/02/04/obama-terror-drones-cia-tactics-in-pakistan-include-targeting-rescuers-and-funerals/

cyberhog

Libya tells UN: Gays threaten continuation of human race.

today’s shocking homophobic outburst by the new Libyan government, together with the routine abuse of prisoners, underscores the serious questions we have about whether the new regime is genuinely committed to improving on the dark record of its predecessor, or to pandering to some of the hardline Islamists amidst its ranks,”

http://blog.unwatch.org/index.php/2012/02/13/libya-tells-un-rights-council-gays-threaten-continuation-of-human-race/

Its become so clear that Libya's new rulers are a bunch of scumbags that I bet even NATO's most ardent apologists are starting to feel like eejits for defending the intervention.

AlekSmart

cyberhog wrote: »

Libya tells UN: Gays threaten continuation of human race.

http://blog.unwatch.org/index.php/2012/02/13/libya-tells-un-rights-council-gays-threaten-continuation-of-human-race/

Its become so clear that Libya's new rulers are a bunch of scumbags that I bet even NATO's most ardent apologists are starting to feel like eejits for defending the intervention.

NO Cyberhog,they are most certainly not feeling anything of the sort.

Although...... the "New,Improved" official Libyan attitude to this issue must be sounding a bit odd to the likes of the liberal minded Dutch,whose military personnel the Gadaffi regime had the good grace to repatriate after their capture early on in the "Get Gadaffi" campaign.