Breastfeeding tip-toeing

LegacyUser

I have a 5 month old boy with my fabulous wife. Breastfeeding didn't come easy to her....it took several weeks of trial and error before it began to work.

My question is gonna cause offence, I am sure. I have been called a "breastfeeding Nazi", but I am very curious.

Why is it considered ok to stop/refuse to begin to breastfeed? When did that become the norm?

I see so many problems with formula feeding among people I work with and my own friends. So many have confused growth spurts with the baby "needing solids", without realising that they are not lab mice and cannot be fed X ounces per day.

The amount of laxatives, painkillers and God knows what they throw down their children's throats is astonishing, just to get the elusive all-night sleep and to counteract the effects of this feeding by timetables rather than hunger.

I cannot understand any of it, really and truly. It all seems to be made for the parents and nothing in the child's benefit at all.

It makes me so sad to see this is the modern way and we have been made to feel like relics from the 3rd World, rather than parents prepared to rough it to give our boy what he deserves.

If by any chance this is actually published here, thoughts please?

silja

I don't see what breastfeeding (or not) has to do with giving a baby painkillers and laxatives?

Cat Melodeon

It's a very emotive issue for people. Our babyrearing culture has moved quite far away from a place where breastfeeding is the norm, so many new mums and dads have had no prior exposure to breastfeeding. Despite what many people say, breastfeeding does not come naturally to women, it is a learned skill and one that is soaked in emotion, fear of failure, fear of not doing well enough by baby, fear of being judged, massive hormonal changes, and varying levels of support or misinformation from family, friends and medical professionals. It is much simpler for many people to take a box of formula and feel reassured that you can just follow the instructions. Boobs don't come with instructions.

I write this as a committed breastfeeder and occasional lactivist, but one who recognises that all parents come to parenting from very different places and with very different expectations and support networks. If you cannot understand how some people manage breastfeeding and others don't, you maybe need to open your mind a little to the emotions and personal circumstances that different parents find themselves in. Not every woman has a supportive partner or family or friends; not every woman is able to overcome inhibitions or negative attitudes or physical setbacks.

Ayla

I think Cat said it well and I don't really want to make this a contentious thread. I breastfed each of my girls, and I also see its benefits, but I understand that everyone has a different life experience, background, support structure & educational level. Whether right or wrong, bottle feeding has become ingrained in our society here and change (if it comes) will be gradual.

OP - I would suggest considering your tone of voice when addressing this very sensitive and emotive issue. Badgering bottle feeding families with claims as you have will only serve to backlash against the breastfeeding cause you're fighting for.

annamcmahon

As a mam who still breastfeeds her 9 month old and will probably be tandem feeding come early next year, I agree with the 2 ladies above. I feel that for my family breastfeeding was best but that if other families choose to feed their babies formula that is their choice. No matter what the reasons, I have no right to judge them. We've given my baby laxatives and painkillers when she has needed them. It's a lie that breastfed babies don't get constipated and she has still has teething pains.

Yes breastfeeding should be more seen as more normal especially after the baby is 6 months but that doesn't mean that parents feeding their babies formula are letting them down or harming them. Instead women having problems need to be given proper support and advice. That's a whole other issue though.

Moonbeam

*mod note*

I allowed the ops post as felt that he could learn a lot from posters here but I am also keeping a close watch on the posts.

Cottontail

I breastfed my son until he was a year old or so. It wasn't easy, especially in the beginning when he was hardly sleeping at night. Of course my Mam's answer to that was 'give him a bottle, it never did you any harm and we never had those kinds of problems with you', and then to be told that me and my brothers all slept between our 4 hourly feeds. I just feel that breastfeeding wasn't something that was routinely done by our mother's and probably our grandmother's generations and as a result, the knowledge and support for a lot of mothers who want to breastfeed isn't there. I know the La Leche League meetings I went to were a great support and help to me, there wasn't anyone else I could have turned to in my family when I had problems with it. I'm glad that I persevered with it though because breastfeeding my baby was one of the loveliest experiences I've ever had. I fully intend doing it again next time around.

wmpdd3

@ Out of step Dad, you are probably praching to the converted, better spend you time normalising breastfeeding to other men.

In the ward I was in, I was the only woman trying to breastfeed. I was permenantly topless. I got a lot of funny looks from the male visitors and fathers.

I had to express for 4 days while my baby was in the incubator, I got looks as if I was using an iron lung.

The women on the ward were great, one wanted to feed but was to ill to do it so she was great, but later when I got talking to the other mothers they did say the fathers view of breast feeding as weird was a factor in their choice not to feed.

So OP, concentrate on the male view of breast feeding and you may change the world!

As a side line,h I was really happy with the support the mid wife gave me when I said I wanted to BF again this time.

Toots

My hope was to breastfeed my son for at least 6 months but it's not happening for me. Firstly my baby couldn't latch on, his suck reflex is very far back so he wasn't able to feed straight from me.

My milk took a good week to come in so up until then expressing wasn't an option, although I kept trying it anyway and tried to breast feed at every feed. I ended up giving him formula in the hospital because he had to be fed somehow and then when my milk did come in he could take a feed from me using a nipple shield but even then he wouldn't take a full feed and preferred his bottle. I expressed and initially I had loads of milk, but for some reason after about 3 weeks my milk started to go.

I saw a lactation consultant after basically trying everything to increase my milk and she said by the sounds of it I'm doing everything right and that it can sometimes happen that the milk just dries up. Even knowing that doesn't help me not feel terrible about not being able to breastfeed my son. I think on some levels I do feel like I've failed because it's the natural way to feed the baby but for some reason my body won't do what it's supposed to. I think if my husband or our families gave me a hard time about it I'd have been devastated because I'm upset enough about it.

Luckily the little man takes the formula well and is thriving. I've never had to give him painkillers (in fact he's less collicy on the formula than on my milk). He's been constipated once or twice, both on breastmilk and formula but instead of laxatives the midwife in Holles Street said a table spoon of fresh squeezed orange juice is gentler and works just as well, which I have definitely found to be true.

Sesame

I agree with the OP that it is difficult to understand why people do not breast feed especially with all the facts known regarding the benefits.
I'm still breastfeeding my 1 year old baby.
But I can relate to a number of reasons why people don't, from my own friends and family. One thought the idea of breastfeeding was icky. Another was really into buying all the best gear, and was excited at the idea of buying bottles and steralisers, that when I suggested breastfeeding, she dismissed it as there wouldn't be anything to buy. Weird but true, that.
A couple of different friends have said its too "tying", I think they mean that they would be with the baby all the time and never get a break.

Its a very emotive subject and bottle feeders can get defensive when its raised so its difficult to even talk about. I'd love to share the benefits and reason I chose to do it with my friends and family. None of them have breastfed. But I'm afraid to as they think I'm trying to be smug or think I'm better than them. I'm really not though.
The benefits to me are, its free and convenient. No packing a bag when going anywhere. With a small baby I could throw a nappy in my handbag and thats it.
During the night I could feed without needing to leave the bedroom and the hormones released mean that I fall back to sleep really easily, so very little sleep deprivation (mostly!).
The main drawback to me were inital embarrassment for my elder family (for them, not me), then there is a tie to your baby where you cant really leave them for longer than 3 hours or so for a few weeks, but I didn't want to anyway. And it hurt for the first 2 weeks.

Its a pity that its not more normalised in society, but I'm not one of those nazi women nor ever will be. I've read about them, but never actually met one. I don't mention breastfeeding unless its asked. People tend to judge all aspects of parenting and its a hard enough job as it is! To me, breastfeeding is the way I feed my baby, not a way of life.

Master and commander

to give you an idea of the attitude out there, my sister doesn't BF her baby. When mother asked her about it and said lots of polish women BF my sister just said that the polish only breastfed becase they were too tight/mean to buy formula.
I am by no stretch a BF nazi (i actually find quite a repulsive thing) but even i was kinda shocked by my sisters attitude to polish and BFing.

Ayla

Master and commander wrote: »

...(i actually find quite a repulsive thing)...

Since you brought it up, can I ask what exactly is it about breastfeeding that you find repulsive? I'm really curious about this thought...

How Strange

Op, I have to say you sound very smug and judgmental and I say that as a mother of a 9 month old breastfed baby.

I do what I feel is best for my son but I absolutely believe I've no right to judge other women or parents for how they raise their families. My husband and I have made controversial parenting choices and all we ask of people is that they respect them.

I also hate the term breast feeding nazi and feel its a passive aggressive insult. If we all just respected that parents make choices that suit their own families then there'd be no need for insults or smug comments.

LegacyUser

Thanks for all the replies.

If I sound smug, it might be because I feel like we've this amazing secret that everyone should know. But I don't want to sound smug, so apologies if I do.

As I said, it was no easy thing for my wife. We abandoned all hope under my Mother-In-Law's advice and switched to formula. It was only my wife's absolute determination which got us back on track.

There are so many vested interests in formula-feeding, I feel that this is the biggest obstacle. They make it seem so easy and almost a no-brainer to formula feed, but it will always be like feeding a lab rat to me. Sorry, but I think it is incredibly unnatural.

I also think (puts helmet on) that some women are just too damn lazy to do it. They do a token few weeks and think 'that'll do...I did my bit'. I think that this is very common too and something most would not ever admit to.

It is such an emotive thing though. I was talking to my Australian sister-in-law who packed it in and was trying to convert my wife, which annoyed me immensely as you can imagine. She could list all these friends of hers who couldn't breastfeed.

When I pointed out that Australia has one of the lowest rates of BF in the world and that maybe it's a cultural thing, she went ballistic.

It amazes me that people will buy their baby only the best pushchair, but feed them powdered cow's milk.

ThisRegard

I think I have to disagree with many posters here. I think breastfeeding it's much more socially acceptable now than say 15/20 years ago. It's promoted heavily in hospitals and by public health nurses and I think anyone involved us aware that it can be very difficult for some mothers and babies. You only have to go to any public place and you'll see it happening, and I've never seen a negative reaction to other people or my wife while she did it in public.

Cat Melodeon

ThisRegard wrote: »

I think I have to disagree with many posters here. I think breastfeeding it's much more socially acceptable now than say 15/20 years ago. It's promoted heavily in hospitals and by public health nurses and I think anyone involved us aware that it can be very difficult for some mothers and babies. You only have to go to any public place and you'll see it happening, and I've never seen a negative reaction to other people or my wife while she did it in public.

The very term 'socially acceptable' shows that it is still not considered the norm. It shows that it is at best tolerated, not normal or celebrated in any way. And health promotion campaigns generally remain the preserve of health professionals, they don't always filter through to society at large. If they did, no one would smoke, we'd all eat well and exercise regularly, drink in moderation and be open about our mental health problems. If breastfeeding was normal, more than 3% of babies would still be breastfed at the age of 6 months. It's not normal although it is gaining some momentum, but that is mostly due to non-profit groups trying to make it a more visible and normal practice than any success on the part of the HSE who talk the talk but don't have the resources to support individual women.

LegacyUser

wmpdd3 wrote: »

@ Out of step Dad, you are probably praching to the converted, better spend you time normalising breastfeeding to other men.

- - - - - -

So OP, concentrate on the male view of breast feeding and you may change the world!

Thank you for this - I will certainly take this advice, and apologies to anyone if I have caused offence.

Hobbitfeet

Also did you know that the growth chart you get when your baby is born and which is referred to by your PHN is based on averages for bottle fed babies. I know so many breast feeding mums who were unaware of this and constantly being told by PHN that baby was underweight. This caused them so much stress and worry. It seems like the PHN don't even know that these charts are based on bottle fed babies who generally put on much more, and more quickly weight.

The fact that bottles and formula are still available for free on maternity wards shows that the HSE is not fully behind breast feeding. Our health service is severely lacking in funds yet it pays huge sums of money every year to provide bottles and formula for free.

Evil-p

I am currently breastfeeding my 10 month old. I think the questions the op raises regarding the low rates of breastfeeding in this country are very complex. I love breastfeeding and it was has been an amazing part of being a Mam for me. But I am literally the only person I know who has ever breastfed in my generation. Every single other friend, colleague, cousin etc all formula fed. Some of the women tried to breastfeed. Some tried very hard but couldn't make it work, some hadn't done any research prior to the baby being born and didn't have the know-how to overcome problems, but the vast majority didn't even try because they would be judged as a bit odd or they would be too tied down by breastfeeding or it would ruin their breasts etc.
I think one thing that is very helpful for establishing feeding is doing your own research and attending a Cuidiu or La Leche League meeting prior to your baby being born. Its an important part of feeding to see and hear from Mams what a breastfed baby is like in contrast to a formula fed baby. And there are differences in feeding patterns, sleep patterns etc. A fair few breastfeeding Mams I know failed at breastfeeding by attempting to follow routines such as Gina Fords EASY routine which is just not breastfeeding compatible. But because breastfeeding was so rare the last couple of generations there is a huge amount of dodgy information out there.
I also hate the expression breastfeeding nazi. I am passionate about breastfeeding but I don't push it down anyone's throat and I love all babas and would never make a new Mammy feel bad, and I have never met a breastfeeder who would. I hate that I cannot strongly believe in the benefits of breastfeeding without being called that!

implausible

OutOfStep Dad wrote: »

I see so many problems with formula feeding among people I work with and my own friends. So many have confused growth spurts with the baby "needing solids", without realising that they are not lab mice and cannot be fed X ounces per day.

The amount of laxatives, painkillers and God knows what they throw down their children's throats is astonishing, just to get the elusive all-night sleep and to counteract the effects of this feeding by timetables rather than hunger.

This part of your post is what grabbed my attention. You are jumping to conclusions here, (presumably) based on your baby and your experience. That is not a good basis to make general statements and makes you come across as smug and judgemental.

I am probably going to contradict myself by adding my own experience, but I'm fairly sure that some other mums on here will have had similar - my wee man was breastfed until 7 months. He did get constipated, I have given him calpol and have been getting a full night's sleep since he was 5 months old (now, who's being smug?!:D). I was told that bf babies don't get colic, but mine was colicky for a while.

He does seem to be very healthy and hardy and has never had an anti-biotic in his 17 months, but genetics has a strong role to play, so while I'd like to think that breastfeeding helped, I doubt it could be proved.

I do agree, however, with your thread title OP - "tip-toeing" describes exactly what you have to do when you want to wax lyrical on the joys of breastfeeding. I don't think that it is exclusive to this though, I also have to tip-toe about my opinions on walkers, putting rice in bottles, watching tv and eating junk. Parenting is so laden with guilt that you have to be sensitive.

There is a strong tendency in all of us to become one-subject experts, once we become parents. However, the one thing I have learned since I got pregnant is that despite the books, the message boards and the conversations, I will never know everything and will always have something to learn, even from the most unlikely sources!

ThisRegard

I don't know Cat, I think you're just getting into semantics now. Maybe it's the circle of people a person socialises in but in my social group it's the norm, out of 6 mothers 5 breastfed up until they returned to work and expressed after that, the 6th stopped for her own personal reasons. No mother had to think twice of breastfeeding, it was something they were always going to do.

Regarding any information my family got about the subject, none came from a npo, all came from the public health sector if it was needed.

Again,i don't understand the need fit tip toeing around the subject, as I said maybe it's due to a persons circle of friends or their own insecurities surrounding it.

Evil-p

ThisRegard wrote: »

I don't know Cat, I think you're just getting into semantics now. Maybe it's the circle of people a person socialises in but in my social group it's the norm, out of 6 mothers 5 breastfed up until they returned to work and expressed after that, the 6th stopped for her own personal reasons. No mother had to think twice of breastfeeding, it was something they were always going to do.

Regarding any information my family got about the subject, none came from a npo, all came from the public health sector if it was needed.

Again,i don't understand the need fit tip toeing around the subject, as I said maybe it's due to a persons circle of friends or their own insecurities surrounding it.

Your experience is certainly not reflected in the statistics.

Currently approximately 47% of mothers in Ireland are breastfeeding at discharge from maternity care (NPRS, 2008). Breastfeeding duration rate figures are not currently collected at national level, however, research studies indicate the fall-off in breastfeeding following discharge is worryingly high with less than 10% of infants still breastfeeding at 6 months of age.
http://www.breastfeeding.ie/policy_strategy

It is often necessary to tip toe around the subject of infant feeding as it is a very emotive subject for many parents.

Also most healthcare professionals in this country are woeful on breastfeeding using wrong charts and using formula as a cure-all. Again you and your peer group where the exceptions if you received good advice from the public health sector. Obviously some are fantastic but the training is so bad that anyone who knows there stuff has sought the information out themselves.

implausible

ThisRegard wrote: »

I don't know Cat, I think you're just getting into semantics now. Maybe it's the circle of people a person socialises in but in my social group it's the norm, out of 6 mothers 5 breastfed up until they returned to work and expressed after that, the 6th stopped for her own personal reasons. No mother had to think twice of breastfeeding, it was something they were always going to do.

Regarding any information my family got about the subject, none came from a npo, all came from the public health sector if it was needed.

Again,i don't understand the need fit tip toeing around the subject, as I said maybe it's due to a persons circle of friends or their own insecurities surrounding it.

This is probably going to come out wrong, but can I ask about your social group and if they are in general middle-class, educated professionals?

I ask because of a statistic someone posted here ages back about class/education and breastfeeding and there seems to be a direct correlation between the two. I teach and of the other 3 colleagues pregnant around the same time, all three started off breastfeeding, a currently pregnant colleague is planning to and the only two friends I could turn to for first-hand advice when I was breastfeeding were a third-level educated friend and another friend whose mother had done it. On the other hand, all but one of the women in my ante-natal class bottle-fed and my husband's friends' partners didn't know which way to look when I fed him when they came to visit me. None of them had even considered breastfeeding and all of them finished education at Leaving Cert level.

Now, obviously this is anecdotal, but I wonder if these observations reflect anyone else's.

ThisRegard

I would tend to concur with you implausible, I wouldn't know what to say about class but all are college educated to a degree level and would be considered professionals in the workplace, same goes for the fathers. But don't get me wrong, we're not from silver spoon families, I would say education plays a bigger role as opposed to background.

hunnymonster

It' s well documented that educational level is a factor in breastfeeding as is age (>35) of mum. e.g. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19758484.

Neyite

Op,

You also have to consider that the mother may have to go on medication immediatly after the birth and therefore cannot breastfeed.

A friend of mine with epilepsy was monitored throughout her pregnancy with her dosage at a minimum, but immediatly after the birth, had to resume her higher dosage. That simply could not be passed on during breastfeeding to a newborn, but the amount of women in her ward who didnt know her medical history berating her about not caring about her child enough to breastfeed was the lowest point for her. It reduced her to tears. She had the choice of having fits and accidently hurting her baby by dropping them or bottlefeed.

I have high prolactin (ironically the hormone that produces breastmilk) and take medication to control it. Its caused by a benign tumor in the pituatury gland near the brain. I stopped all meds the moment I became pregnant, and an endocrinologist will be monitoring me until the birth. I would dearly love to breastfeed, and hope I can, but the meds I might need to resume reduces the prolactin hormone, milk will dry up.

If someone (no offence) like you judged me on feeding my child a bottle without knowing why, I would be really annoyed.Why should I have to discuss my medical history with someone I barely know, just to improve some pre-concieved assumption about me? Its not always so black and white.

implausible

Neyite wrote: »

A friend of mine with epilepsy was monitored throughout her pregnancy with her dosage at a minimum, but immediatly after the birth, had to resume her higher dosage. That simply could not be passed on during breastfeeding to a newborn, but the amount of women in her ward who didnt know her medical history berating her about not caring about her child enough to breastfeed was the lowest point for her. It reduced her to tears.

I have high prolactin (ironically the hormone that produces breastmilk) and take medication to control it. Its caused by a benign tumor in the pituatury gland near the brain. I stopped all meds the moment I became pregnant, and an endocrinologist will be monitoring me until the birth. I would dearly love to breastfeed, and hope I can, but the meds I might need to resume reduces the prolactin hormone, milk will dry up.

If someone (no offence) like you judged me on feeding my child a bottle without knowing why, I would be really annoyed.Why should I have to discuss my medical history with someone I barely know, just to improve some pre-concieved assumption about me? Its not always so black and white.

You see, I don't understand this. I have never berated anyone for not breastfeeding and have never heard anyone do so. I was in for a week after my section and when we weren't with visitors, sleeping or busy with the babies, we chatted about 'safe' topics. Any woman who has nothing better to do than start berating someone in a ward for not breastfeeding should be in another ward - a psychiatric one.

Women who can't breastfeed for medical reasons are in a very small minority and have the most valid of reasons for not doing so. You know why you are not doing so and in response to the tiny percentage of people who verbalise their objections to you not breastfeeding, I'd either tell them why (so they'd realise it's not black and white) or tell them to f*ck off.

Edit: How is your friend now? I ask because a girl I know had her epilepsy disappear while she was pregnant and it hasn't returned in the 3 years since.

Neyite

It probably has changed a lot - this was several years ago, and my friend was barely out of her teens, so it could also have been that she was the youngest in the ward, and maybe the other women were talking down to her somewhat. I have no doubt she would tell them where to go if she encountered that attitude today.

I think her epilepsy was very well managed on meds, but unfortunatly for her, pregnancy didnt cure it.

If someone did say something if I bottle fed, they would be curtly told that its none of their business or tell them its a medical issue. I just wanted to point it out to the OP, because it was another reason for not breastfeeding that didnt seem to occur to him.

LegacyUser

I realise that some mothers cannot breastfeed for medical reasons, but I also realise this % is very, very small. These aren't the ones I am talking about obviously.

I am saddened by the fact that breastfeeding is now the exception, and not the norm.

It is a sad indictment of what our bloated society has become, that people will pay for a product that is inferior to what nature has given them for free and think this is progress.

I did joke to my wife that maybe the next step in our sophisticated society is instead of buying food, we could just buy a bag of artificial sh*t and just flush it down the toilet....this would save us having to cook, eat and be toilet trained!

deisemum

I believe some smug breastfeeders have done more harm than good at promoting breastfeeding. I've witnessed a La Leche League leader berate a new mum of twins at a Cuidiu coffee morning for having the evil formula in a bottle, the mum was part breastfeeding and part formula feeding her babies. Same woman also upset someone who'd adopted with her rant about formula.

When I had my second child 14 years ago I attended the local La Leche League meetings and some (not all) of the mothers were so competitive and up themselves and considered themselves much better parents than mothers (not involved with LLL) who formula fed. Having had my first child abroad and having breastfed him as was more the norm than here at the time I was taken aback by the smugness of some in LLL.

If I'd gone to LLL with my first child I'd have been left with a very negative view of breastfeeding. I can see why my PHN who was very pro breastfeeding warned me about the local LLL and to be very careful not to let them upset me as she had heard enough to know what they were like and she was right but there were some lovely mums at it as well so not all negative.

My children are now teenagers but they don't even know who their GP is. The 16 year old had antibiotics twice as a toddler and the younger one once as a toddler but haven't been near their GP since.

I breastfed mine longterm but I wouldn't go around judging someone if they breast or formula fed their baby.

AmcD

implausible wrote: »

This is probably going to come out wrong, but can I ask about your social group and if they are in general middle-class, educated professionals?
I ask because of a statistic someone posted here ages back about class/education and breastfeeding and there seems to be a direct correlation between the two. I teach and of the other 3 colleagues pregnant around the same time, all three started off breastfeeding, a currently pregnant colleague is planning to and the only two friends I could turn to for first-hand advice when I was breastfeeding were a third-level educated friend and another friend whose mother had done it. On the other hand, all but one of the women in my ante-natal class bottle-fed and my husband's friends' partners didn't know which way to look when I fed him when they came to visit me. None of them had even considered breastfeeding and all of them finished education at Leaving Cert level.

In my line of work (GP) the only breast-feeding mothers I come across are either recent immigrants (Eastern European, African) or middle class. This is not a sweeping generalization, just a personal observation.

When I was breast-feeding I went to the local breast-feeding support group in my local health centre. It was a very friendly group of first-time breast-feeding mothers gathering for a chat- So there are alternatives to La leche league.

Little My

I'm feeding my 3 month old and will continue as long as it is working for both of us. I love doing it and so far it is all going well.

A friend I caught up with today had a baby a week after me. She told me that a midwife in the hospital started telling her about 8 hours after giving birth that she hadn't enough milk and needed to give the baby a bottle, and continued to tell her repeatedly through the evening and night.

If women aren't getting the support in hospital how can they be expected to carry on with it? Both me and my friend are first time mums - if a medical professional had told me on the same day as having my baby I couldn't feed him I would have given up too.

beachbabe

I really wanted to breastfeed my son, but it just did not happen. He would not stay latched on. We tried everything, and all the professionals we encountered were bemused entirely. He started to get jaundiced and his urine output decreased as he was not getting enough fluid. As a new mum in this horrific situation, bottle feeding was the only way to stop him becoming severly ill.
I tried expressing but I was producing little or no milk.
Once he started on the formula the improvment was anazing.
I have heard there are strict laws that prevent the formula producing companies from making formula as "good " as brest milk. This angers me so much, I still feel guilty I could not feed him as I wanted to, and the only available option was to give him formula that could have been as good as breast milk, but is not.
He is 2 now, and very healthy, has never been on antibiotics.
We also thought he might have to be delivered early, I realise midwives are trained to deliver the breast is best message, but when you are 30 weeks pregnant and your consultant has just informed you your baby might have to be delivered soon, the midwife shoving the breast is best message down your throat is really very upsetting.
I guess the point I am making here is that it is not always the parent's choice to not breastfeed.

lonestargirl

implausible wrote: »

This is probably going to come out wrong, but can I ask about your social group and if they are in general middle-class, educated professionals?

I ask because of a statistic someone posted here ages back about class/education and breastfeeding and there seems to be a direct correlation between the two. I teach and of the other 3 colleagues pregnant around the same time, all three started off breastfeeding, a currently pregnant colleague is planning to and the only two friends I could turn to for first-hand advice when I was breastfeeding were a third-level educated friend and another friend whose mother had done it.

This would be my experience too. I never really considered forumla feeding as breast was the norm in my family. My mother and all my aunts breast fed, at almost every point over the last 20 years there has been a breast fed baby around my grandparent's house. Similarly all the girls that I work with (allied health in the HSE) breast fed their babies. Even now my mother-in-law tells me that I'm 'great for having kept it up so long' but she has no experience to relate too. I was lucky in having a husband who was pro-breast feeding (he's a doctor) but also very supportive. My son was born in the US where all my professional friends breast fed - most of them returned to work when their babies were 8-10 weeks old but expressing in work is very common. There were a number of shops in my area where you could rent hospital grade pumps.

LegacyUser

beachbabe wrote: »

There are strict laws that prevent the formula producing companies from making formula as "good " as brest milk. This angers me so much, I still feel guilty I could not feed him as I wanted to, and the only available option was to give him formula that could have been as good as brest milk, but is not.

Have you got any source for these laws? That sounds highly dubious to say the very least. It would be in nobody's interest to deliberately subdue the "quality" of powdered milk.

To my knowledge breastmilk cannot be matched or equalled in any way, as it is tailored to your child. Even the calorie content of breastmilk changes as per your child's requirement, it is that good.

Can you clarify these laws you mention? These urban myth, in my opinion, are designed to appease mothers who don't breastfeed for whatever reason and are very unhelpful.

Moonbeam

I don't think I know anyone that did not at least attempt to breastfeed, In my circle of friends and acquaintances breast feeding is the norm no one would bat an eyelid.
Not all of us successfully did it long term,I only managed 3 months with each of mine but I persevered for those months.

It can be a very painful and nerve wrecking experience.

LegacyUser

beachbabe wrote: »

I really wanted to breastfeed my son, but it just did not happen. He would not stay latched on. We tried everything, and all the professionals we encountered were bemused entirely. He started to get jaundiced and his urine output decreased as he was not getting enough fluid. As a new mum in this horrific situation, bottle feeding was the only way to stop him becoming severly ill.
I tried expressing but I was producing little or no milk.
Once he started on the formula the improvment was anazing.

As I mentioned, we used formula at the start too. Our boy was jaundiced too, as many, many babies are. It was not a "horrific" situation. Jaundice is very common and easily cured.

Did you try and breastfeed your boy after this initial difficulty? If not, why not?

You say you wanted to?

LegacyUser

Moonbeam wrote: »

It can be a very painful and nerve wrecking experience.

I agree completely with this. I had thought it would be easy, but I was wrong. If done right it shouldn't be painful or nerve wracking.

My wife found that after persevering for about three months it became easy and rewarding.

It is such a shame people give up before this happens because they, and their baby, are really missing out.

beachbabe

OutOfStep Dad wrote: »

Have you got any source for these laws? That sounds highly dubious to say the very least. It would be in nobody's interest to deliberately subdue the "quality" of powdered milk.

To my knowledge breastmilk cannot be matched or equalled in any way, as it is tailored to your child. Even the calorie content of breastmilk changes as per your child's requirement, it is that good.

Can you clarify these laws you mention? These urban myth, in my opinion, are designed to appease mothers who don't breastfeed for whatever reason and are very unhelpful.

I cant clarify them, but I heard this from many midwives, and consultants. I will try and find the clarification, but not now, it's bedtime.
I belive these laws are the same ones that have stopped the formula companys advertising baby formula, I am sure many people have noticed the current huge ammount of advertising for "follow on" milk, and the total lack of advertising for baby formula. The companys are not allowed advertise baby formula anymore.

Back to the point I was making. Breast is best, but not always possible.

LegacyUser

beachbabe wrote: »

I cant clarify them, but I heard this from many midwives, and consultants. I will try and find the clarification, but not now, it's bedtime.
I belive these laws are the same ones that have stopped the formula companys advertising baby formula, I am sure many people have noticed the current huge ammount of advertising for "follow on" milk, and the total lack of advertising for baby formula. The companys are not allowed advertise baby formula anymore.

Back to the point I was making. Breast is best, but not always possible.

This is total rubbish. If there's been any decrease in advertising formula milk, it is because of the Nestlé scandal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestl%C3%A9_boycott

Because of that, Nestlé use a brand called SMA in Europe (still Nestlé in other parts of the world).

"Follow-on" milk is formula milk. It is artificially-enhanced powdered cow's milk, same as infant formula.

With the greatest respect, there's an awful lot of hearsay going on here. Also, your point wasn't "Breast is best, but not always possible"....it was that formula milk could be as good and that you are angry with some laws because it is these laws that denied your baby quality milk.

All of which brings me back to my original question - after this bout of jaundice, did you ever try and breastfeed your boy or did you blame "the laws" and give up?

Moonbeam

Out of interest was it your wife that felt strongly about breastfeeding or did you put pressure on her?

"There are strict laws that prevent the formula producing companies from making formula as "good " as brest milk."

This is completely untrue.

LegacyUser

Moonbeam wrote: »

Out of interest was it your wife that felt strongly about breastfeeding or did you put pressure on her?

Being totally honest, I really hoped she would breastfeed and she probably knew this. But I can honestly say I never put pressure on her. Christ, those first few weeks were so chaotic I would have done anything to help her.

I am not on a crusade, but I am just sick of people making up excuses why they didn't breastfeed rather than being honest about it.

I would have more respect for someone saying "it was too sore" or "too tying" or even "I couldn't be bothered" than making up lies to absolve them from any responsibility.

That probably sounds really harsh, but I hope you can see what I mean.

implausible

beachbabe wrote: »

There are strict laws that prevent the formula producing companies from making formula as "good " as brest milk.

I'm sorry beachbabe, but you have been badly misinformed if this is what you believe. The idea that formula companies are not "allowed" to make formula as good as breastmilk is laughable. Formula is as good as it can be, but it cannot be as good as breastmilk, because scientists have yet to discover and reproduce every single component of breastmilk or figure out how these elements interact, in the same way that they can't reproduce an apple or even cow's milk. Why on earth would formula companies be prevented from making a perfect substitute to breastmilk if it was in their power? It would be deliberately discriminating against women who can't feed and orphaned and abandoned children. As a conspiracy theory, it's up there with the CIA knocking the Twin Towers.

I know it must have been upsetting and disappointing to not have been able to breastfeed, but clinging to a myth like this one is pointless. As you have said yourself, he is thriving and healthy, so your fears were unfounded.

beachbabe wrote: »

I believe these laws are the same ones that have stopped the formula companys advertising baby formula

The laws on advertising are completely different to the other laws you mention. You are not allowed market formula, sell it below cost or offer 'points' on it, so there isn't a financial incentive to formula-feed. There have been EU laws governing the promotion of formula in force since 1998, but the relevant one is here.

No mention of banning them from making formula as good as breastmilk.

daenerysstormborn3

Not breastfeeding, nor am I a mother but came across this topic on the home page and find the whole thing quite amusing.

That anyone thinks it is their right to preach to others on how they raise their child is laughable. And to be honest outofstepdad I think you are over-stepping the mark with some of your comments on other poster's experiences, implying that some just didn't try hard enough. If another poster describes an experience as "horrific" then I'm afraid unless you were in the room with her, holding her hand, then you are not in a position to say "it was not horrific".

My mother breastfed my brother, my sister and I, and my granny breastfed all 11 of her children, my grandma also breastfed all 11 of her children and weren't they just fantastic for doing so. They were lucky, very lucky because unfortunately breastfeeding doesn't come with a handy guide and a set of instructions. Every mother is different, every child is different, every pregnancy is different and every birth is different. There are many different reasons why a mother could find herself unable to breastfeed (sometimes it's choice and sometimes it's not).

I intend to breastfeed any baby that I may bring into this world but if it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out and I will instead find the most nutritious source of food for my baby.

I did find it interesting, however, when told recently by women I work with that advertising milk for under 6 month old babies is not allowed in Ireland. One of them pointed out that Boots don't allow points on your Boots card when you purchase milk for under 6 month old babies so much so is their commitment to the no promoting rule - I know that is just something trivial with Boots.

lynski

The problem with artificial feeding is that once you make that decision, you know that there is better choice and noone likes to be reminded that they have compromised. There is not a single study that shows that formula is even comparable to breastfeeding on any level. People who breastfeed have to constantly defend their decision against the what harm, nights out, sleeping, get a break comments. We have to see undermining ads on tv, in papers, on websites. So called support website run by formula companies. Information leaflets from hse representatives supporting breastfeeding again from formula companies.
But we dare question feeding an inferior, less healthy, artificial product we are lactivists, nazis, push, etc.
I do not want to annoy, belittle, or alienate anyone, but I will never say that a diet of mcdonalds is the same as a healthy one like I will never say that artificial feeding as the same or as good ad breastfeeding.

LegacyUser

lynski wrote: »

The problem with artificial feeding is that once you make that decision, you know that there is better choice and noone likes to be reminded that they have compromised. There is not a single study that shows that formula is even comparable to breastfeeding on any level. People who breastfeed have to constantly defend their decision against the what harm, nights out, sleeping, get a break comments. We have to see undermining ads on tv, in papers, on websites. So called support website run by formula companies. Information leaflets from hse representatives supporting breastfeeding again from formula companies.
But we dare question feeding an inferior, less healthy, artificial product we are lactivists, nazis, push, etc.
I do not want to annoy, belittle, or alienate anyone, but I will never say that a diet of mcdonalds is the same as a healthy one like I will never say that artificial feeding as the same or as good ad breastfeeding.

Well you have articulated everything I wanted to say here.

I know I'm a man, I'll never understand, etc. etc., but I really wish that women as a group could cut through the bullsh*t and be open and honest with each other about this.

This guilt of not breastfeeding manifests itself in excuses and myth and ultimately dodgy feeding and profits for corporations. I think if a woman could say to a friend, I'd like to breastfeed but I'm scared or I'm sore or I don't know how, things might move in a positive way.

None of us are perfect and I'm not gonna be feeding my boy organic carrots I grew myself, but I think breastfeeding is right and is good and I know it can be beautiful. I'm gonna make it my mission to talk about it with my male friends. They are fairly powerless in many ways, but it's something positive I can do and I will do it.

Sittingpretty

lynski wrote: »

The problem with artificial feeding is that once you make that decision, you know that there is better choice and noone likes to be reminded that they have compromised. There is not a single study that shows that formula is even comparable to breastfeeding on any level. People who breastfeed have to constantly defend their decision against the what harm, nights out, sleeping, get a break comments. We have to see undermining ads on tv, in papers, on websites. So called support website run by formula companies. Information leaflets from hse representatives supporting breastfeeding again from formula companies.
But we dare question feeding an inferior, less healthy, artificial product we are lactivists, nazis, push, etc.
I do not want to annoy, belittle, or alienate anyone, but I will never say that a diet of mcdonalds is the same as a healthy one like I will never say that artificial feeding as the same or as good ad breastfeeding.

Are you equating formula feeding with feeding mac Donalds to a child?

The condescension in this thread is unbelievable.

Out if step dad, really? Who are you to question how hard anyone has or has not tried? Frankly a a man, you will never know how easy or hard it is to breastfeed.

For what it is worth, I both formula and breast fed, that was my choice, neither better nor worse than anyone else's decision.

Christ above it is hard enough to be a new mom to begin with without this breast is best army descending on you to hammer it home no matter what your personal decision.

Your wife chose to breastfeed? Great, wonderful for you and your son but Jesus try a little but harder not to look down from your high horse on those that dont.

I'm bowing out before this gets nasty as breastfeeding threads nearly always do.

Enjoy your third level well educated highground. I'll keep my phd in my pocket along with my empathy for others.

beachbabe

OutOfStep Dad wrote: »

As I mentioned, we used formula at the start too. Our boy was jaundiced too, as many, many babies are. It was not a "horrific" situation. Jaundice is very common and easily cured.

Did you try and breastfeed your boy after this initial difficulty? If not, why not?

You say you wanted to?

Maybe you should re read my post. He was Jaundiced due to lack of adequate fluid intake, and his urine output dropped also. He was in danger of becoming seriously ill. I was not describing the jaundice as horrific, the whole situation was. You were not there, so I don't think you can make judgements on what peoples preceptions of horrific are.

As stated in original post I was producing little or no milk.

I put him on formula on consultant insistance.

beachbabe

I guess I need to clarify a few things.
I can not find any evidence about the laws I mentioned. I am probbably wrong, but I was told by a lactation consultant they exist and had no reason to doubt them.

I did not blame the laws and give up. If I had continued to try and breast feed him he would have become seriously ill.

No matter how hard you try if you are not producing milk, you can't feed your baby. It was not a case of my milk had not " come in", it never arrived! I did everything I was advised to try and stimulate milk production but even after 6 weeks of trying and expressing I was only producing 1 to 1.5 oz in a 24 hr period, nowhere near enough for babs.

I found it very irritating that as a new mum who was giving her baby the second best option in feeding the support and information available is sub standard compared to that available for breast feeding.

The negativity towards bottle feeding is overwhelming, and I just want people to realise that bottle feeding baby is not always a parents first choice.

beachbabe

OutOfStep Dad wrote: »

This is total rubbish. If there's been any decrease in advertising formula milk, it is because of the Nestlé scandal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestl%C3%A9_boycott

Because of that, Nestlé use a brand called SMA in Europe (still Nestlé in other parts of the world).

"Follow-on" milk is formula milk. It is artificially-enhanced powdered cow's milk, same as infant formula.

With the greatest respect, there's an awful lot of hearsay going on here. Also, your point wasn't "Breast is best, but not always possible"....it was that formula milk could be as good and that you are angry with some laws because it is these laws that denied your baby quality milk.

All of which brings me back to my original question - after this bout of jaundice, did you ever try and breastfeed your boy or did you blame "the laws" and give up?

The ban on formula advertising for children under 6 months is not only due to the nestle scandal.

International Code of Marketing of Breastmilk Substitutes (http://www.who.int/nutrition/publications/code_


http://www.food.gov.uk/news/pressreleases/2007/nov/babymilkpress

ceadaoin.

beachbabe wrote: »

I have heard there are strict laws that prevent the formula producing companies from making formula as "good " as brest milk. This angers me so much, I still feel guilty I could not feed him as I wanted to, and the only available option was to give him formula that could have been as good as breast milk, but is not.

I am sorry you had a bad experience but this bit is untrue. I can't believe that health professionals are telling people this.

I am pregnant now and fully intend to breast feed. I am reading up on it as much as I can and the midwives here are all very pro breastfeeding so hopefully all goes well. I know there is a chance that I will be unable to and have to use formula and I will probably feel guilty if that is the case.

Honestly it seems to me that the 'nazis' are the people who go on about formula feeding being better, not the pro breast feeding people. They are the ones who constantly try to get women to bottle feed by telling them what a hassle BFing is or tell them they won't be able to do it before they have even tried!