Zamano and getting a refund

The Corinthian

kickitlong wrote: »

Are you for real?

This is what has the country in the mess that it's in. Businesses are fighting hand over fist to try and make a profit, employ people and pay taxes and here you are taking away the little bit that they are making.

TBH, I'd have to ask are you for real. If a company has overcharged then they've not actually earned that extra amount and you are due a refund - if you got your car serviced and they overcharged you by €300, I very much doubt you'd not seek to rectify the bill.

ondeball wrote: »

So you're putting the mess that the country is in down to me looking for €3 back from a company that supposedly make their money from subscribing people unwittingly to Premium SMS?

This is just a small way of sticking it to them. I'd question more the strategies of Companies like Zamano that are willing to take money like this from the general public rather than make their money in other ways.

I've worked in that industry and it's not as simple as that. Quite often customers do bother to read any T&C's, no matter how simple they are and then cry foul when the bill comes in. Other times it's a genuine technical fault, that may have nothing to do with the service provider.

The instances of deliberate misleading, that have plagued the PSMS industry have decreased substantially since 2007, due to a marked increase in 'no tolerance' regulation.

kickitlong wrote: »

Where does it end? (plus you could end up costing some Zamano staff there job as well).

No. It's actually their job to deal with such issues and issue refunds (which are a fraction of overall subscription volume). If they're not making a profit, then it comes down to other factors.

Between increase regulation and the the emergence of smartphone appstores, it's a dying industry, IMHO. It was the only way to effectuate 'm-commerce' micro-payments up until recently, but that's no longer the case - it's not even the most cost effective way of doing so any more.

kickitlong

What I was attacking was the claim that they were making refunds based on things that didn't happen.

The Corinthian wrote: »

TBH, I'd have to ask are you for real. If a company has overcharged then they've not actually earned that extra amount and you are due a refund - if you got your car serviced and they overcharged you by €300, I very much doubt you'd not seek to rectify the bill.

I've worked in that industry and it's not as simple as that. Quite often customers do bother to read any T&C's, no matter how simple they are and then cry foul when the bill comes in. Other times it's a genuine technical fault, that may have nothing to do with the service provider.

The instances of deliberate misleading, that have plagued the PSMS industry have decreased substantially since 2007, due to a marked increase in 'no tolerance' regulation.

No. It's actually their job to deal with such issues and issue refunds (which are a fraction of overall subscription volume). If they're not making a profit, then it comes down to other factors.

Between increase regulation and the the emergence of smartphone appstores, it's a dying industry, IMHO. It was the only way to effectuate 'm-commerce' micro-payments up until recently, but that's no longer the case - it's not even the most cost effective way of doing so any more.

coffeetogo

The Corinthian wrote: »

TBH, I'd have to ask are you for real. If a company has overcharged then they've not actually earned that extra amount and you are due a refund - if you got your car serviced and they overcharged you by €300, I very much doubt you'd not seek to rectify the bill.

I was thinking the very same. It'd would take a serious oversight for you not to go looking for a refund. I know that I go through my phone bill with a fine comb to see what charges don't seem to add up.

I suppose it could happen in a company though as account managers won't always have time to do this.

The Corinthian

kickitlong wrote: »

What I was attacking was the claim that they were making refunds based on things that didn't happen.

Fair enough, but the OP was speaking hypothetically and not making any admissions about his own case, so you were a bit OTT and personal.

coffeetogo wrote: »

I suppose it could happen in a company though as account managers won't always have time to do this.

Easily. While naturally there are checks and balances, regulation is extremely biased in favour of the customer and against the service provider, so rather than fall foul of regulation, refunds will typically be issued unless it's blatantly obvious that the complainant is a chancer.

The volumes in the PSMS industry are huge. They have to be; un-subscriptions tend to have a churn rate of 95% - 99% in their first month and of those who don't un-subscribe immediately, only a very small number ever complain. As such avoiding regulatory entanglements makes better business sense than investigating every potential fraudulent refund.

I've not a huge amount of sympathy for service providers with regards to regulatory bias though. The revenue splits demanded by the operators precluded PSMS from being commercially viable for the sale of most products and services; you could only turn a buck if you were able to sell at a ridiculous mark-up and on a repeated basis, which naturally encouraged the emergence of what were effectively scams. Even service providers who followed (relatively) ethical practices ended up hosting the cowboys, in many cases. As such a backlash was inevitable.

Between that and competition from the smartphone appstores, I genuinely think that it's a business model that's dying a death (although one or two may still be able to scratch a living in the long term). Looking at Zamano, I'm surprised they've not reinvented themselves to deal with this (they reinvented themselves from a WAP development consultancy to a PSMS provider in the past, AFAIR). Looking at their D2C brands, many have remained unchanged in years and they don't appear to have gone into the smartphone market in any meaningful way.

kickitlong

The Corinthian wrote: »

Fair enough, but the OP was speaking hypothetically and not making any admissions about his own case, so you were a bit OTT and personal.

Fair enough. I was just flabbergasted at the statement and have been listening to too many teachers giving out about pay cuts and pensions cuts so I was wound up making the statement. Too many people giving out about the state the economy is in but happy enough to persist with habits that contributed to our downfall in the first place.

But that's for another topic and time anyhow.

coffeetogo

The Corinthian wrote: »

Between that and competition from the smartphone appstores, I genuinely think that it's a business model that's dying a death (although one or two may still be able to scratch a living in the long term). Looking at Zamano, I'm surprised they've not reinvented themselves to deal with this (they reinvented themselves from a WAP development consultancy to a PSMS provider in the past, AFAIR). Looking at their D2C brands, many have remained unchanged in years and they don't appear to have gone into the smartphone market in any meaningful way.

Smartphones seem to be have put paid to a lot of these companies as they struggle for revenues sources that were rich in the past like Premier League goal alerts and the like. Admittedly that's consumer stuff. B2B companies only seem to be catching up now if they've survived through the last few years.

it could be that with companies needing to utilise marketing via Smartphones that these companies will find a lifeline from the cause of the slump.

The Corinthian

coffeetogo wrote: »

Smartphones seem to be have put paid to a lot of these companies as they struggle for revenues sources that were rich in the past like Premier League goal alerts and the like.

Yes, although I also would not underestimate the effect of tightening regulation too.

There's no doubt that smartphones have eaten into volume significantly. As a caveat, the effect of smartphones on PSMS volume is somewhat offset - people who subscribe to PSMS products/services tend to be younger (kids) and/or on lower incomes and thus less likely to have smartphones.

Admittedly that's consumer stuff. B2B companies only seem to be catching up now if they've survived through the last few years.

PSMS is ultimately all B2C; the B2B companies generally are selling products and services to companies that are ultimately B2C, so if the consumer market is being squeezed, so will the B2B market.

it could be that with companies needing to utilise marketing via Smartphones that these companies will find a lifeline from the cause of the slump.

You'd think that, but looking at Zamano and a few other players, they still appear to be flogging largely the same stuff as they did three or four years ago. I wouldn't mind, but even before the iPhone came out you could see the Industry revenues dropping and that there was a need to 'evolve or die' has been apparent for a good few years now - I even wrote a piece about that back in early 2009.

sportzstar

The Corinthian wrote: »

Yes, although I also would not underestimate the effect of tightening regulation too.

There's no doubt that smartphones have eaten into volume significantly. As a caveat, the effect of smartphones on PSMS volume is somewhat offset - people who subscribe to PSMS products/services tend to be younger (kids) and/or on lower incomes and thus less likely to have smartphones.

I wonder then have they just not identified the correct niché in PSMS that would appeal to adult user. I suppose it could be too late now given the advent of Smartphone but there could be a calling for some industry appropriate services and updates.

The Corinthian

sportzstar wrote: »

I wonder then have they just not identified the correct niché in PSMS that would appeal to adult user. I suppose it could be too late now given the advent of Smartphone but there could be a calling for some industry appropriate services and updates.

The niché that the PSMS service providers (industry-wide and not specific to any in particular) filled was essentially that which has now been usurped by the appstores as the vast majority of content is not actually produced by them, but bought in and sold on. Technical and marketing resources, in the service providers, are devoted to the PSMS platform - maintaining, extending and selling it, as a brand, to the masses. Essentially they were the first appstores. So it's important to understand what niché they presently fill, to begin with.

It was a niché that served them very well, until they started getting squeezed by both the appstores and regulation - so they did identify the correct niché in PSMS, it's just that it's not 2004 any more and they appear to be at a loss to find a new one.

Changing this niché would require a radical departure from their existing model and platform (potentially abandoning PSMS altogether in the longer term) and at this stage I'm not sure if many service providers can afford the resources of developing and marketing a new model, while still maintaining the old, presuming they can break away from the PSMS mindset to begin with.

Zamano do appear to be attempting to reinvent themselves. Judging by the recent flurry of press releases they appear to be reinventing themselves somewhat as a (more B2B focused) solutions company so that they are more than just a sales platform. I'm not convinced that'll save them, but it's certainly a step in the right direction, IMHO.

As to the adult market, it's often more trouble than it's worth. 'One-handed applications' have been around for a long time in mobile, but it's a very specialized market that listed companies, are often uncomfortable being associated with. As a result, many of them 'dabble' in the adult market, but often via subsidiaries and so never really develop them.

downsouth

Have been in touch with Zamano, or Everneo or whatever they're called now, on the Bieber alerts.

Seemingly my little sis sunwittignly signed up for an alert when she entered a competition. It's her own fault - she should have been more careful to read the t&c's though. I'd be sceptical though as these are normally written in a manner the requires a fine comb to decipher.

sportzstar

The Corinthian wrote: »

The niché that the PSMS service providers (industry-wide and not specific to any in particular) filled was essentially that which has now been usurped by the appstores as the vast majority of content is not actually produced by them, but bought in and sold on. Technical and marketing resources, in the service providers, are devoted to the PSMS platform - maintaining, extending and selling it, as a brand, to the masses. Essentially they were the first appstores. So it's important to understand what niché they presently fill, to begin with.

It was a niché that served them very well, until they started getting squeezed by both the appstores and regulation - so they did identify the correct niché in PSMS, it's just that it's not 2004 any more and they appear to be at a loss to find a new one.

Changing this niché would require a radical departure from their existing model and platform (potentially abandoning PSMS altogether in the longer term) and at this stage I'm not sure if many service providers can afford the resources of developing and marketing a new model, while still maintaining the old, presuming they can break away from the PSMS mindset to begin with.

Zamano do appear to be attempting to reinvent themselves. Judging by the recent flurry of press releases they appear to be reinventing themselves somewhat as a (more B2B focused) solutions company so that they are more than just a sales platform. I'm not convinced that'll save them, but it's certainly a step in the right direction, IMHO.

As to the adult market, it's often more trouble than it's worth. 'One-handed applications' have been around for a long time in mobile, but it's a very specialized market that listed companies, are often uncomfortable being associated with. As a result, many of them 'dabble' in the adult market, but often via subsidiaries and so never really develop them.

Piggy-backing on third party providers of the services then?

It's funny (well not really I suppose) that we seem to have sorted regulation in an industry that is, relatively, low yielding like PSMS and yet we turned a blind eye to the banking sector that left a black hole in the economy.

The Corinthian

sportzstar wrote: »

Piggy-backing on third party providers of the services then?

I don't think anyone piggy-backs off anyone else. Arguably some get more than a fair share (*cough*operators*cough*) while feigning innocence at the abuses that take or took place in PSMS, but piggy-backing, no.

It's funny (well not really I suppose) that we seem to have sorted regulation in an industry that is, relatively, low yielding like PSMS and yet we turned a blind eye to the banking sector that left a black hole in the economy.

Indeed. However the abuses that were occurring in the PSMS industry that pre-empted tougher consumer protection were more blatant and ongoing. The abuses in banking were not apparent until it was too late and then we got them all in one go.

There's still precious little regulation in banking from what I can see.

sedric

8 euro in one minute for texts I never received from 57767.... Zamano

JTMan

I am having serious problems with Zamano as well.

I have started getting spam premium text messages that I never subscribed too.

Worse still, texting stop does not work and ringing them to unsubscribe does nor work.

I have emailed Zamano and also emailed Comreg.