Spain's stolen babies

gurramok

Did anyone see this? Basically up to 300,000 babies were stolen from parents in Spain and given to so called 'good parents' over a 40-50 year period up to the 90's and at the heart of it was the Catholic Church whereby priests & nuns were heavily involved in the trafficking. Even doctors were in on the job.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15335899

I find it astonishing that the Church could have done this but not surprised in hindsight, I had thought the scandals of the paedophile priests was a low but this is a new low as it was official policy!
Could it have happened here also? The Magdalene Launderies comes to mind!

Initially the Fascists by bringing up the children of their enemies - later children were taken from parents judged to be morally or economically deficient and placed with approved Catholic, often childless, families

Unreal stuff

Lawyers believe that up to 300,000 babies were taken.

The practice of removing children from parents deemed "undesirable" and placing them with "approved" families, began in the 1930s under the dictator General Francisco Franco.

At that time, the motivation may have been ideological. But years later, it seemed to change - babies began to be taken from parents considered morally - or economically - deficient. It became a money-spinner, too.

The scandal is closely linked to the Catholic Church, which under Franco assumed a prominent role in Spain's social services including hospitals, schools and children's homes.

Nuns and priests compiled waiting lists of would-be adoptive parents, while doctors were said to have lied to mothers about the fate of their children.

chucken1

Theres no 'could it have happened here?'...It did.

Sauve

The sad thing is, I'm not in the least bit surprised.

busyliving

Just another thing to add to the list

RCC should be kick out this country and now Spain

monkeypants

Nothing new. Google Edgardo Mortara.

Unique User Name

chucken1 wrote: »

Theres no 'could it have happened here?'...It did.

Dey turk er babies.

Immaculate Pasta

That's awful.

RachaelVO

It was a truly awful documentary to watch, especially that poor mother, hoping that the American chap was her long lost son!

Yet more atrocities that can be attributed to the catholic church! :mad:

I truly saddened by that entire documentary last night, I had tear streaming down my cheeks watching it!

FetchTheGin

Scum of the highest order.

IvyTheTerrible

What's especially sad about these cases is that, because they were illegal adoptions, they don't fall under the legislation, so people can't trace their biological parents or children because they are not entitled to get that info.

PeterIanStaker

Absolutely sickening. The RCC is a vile organisation that stinks of hypocrisy and has a pathological hatred and fear of women.

They're the same shower that get still give out about about contraception etc - because it probably means less business for them.

Run_to_da_hills

busyliving wrote: »

Just another thing to add to the list

RCC should be kick out this country and now Spain

The Catholic Church should be disbanded altogether.

lazygal

If I was Jesus I'd be p!ssed at this shower doing things in my name. Thank feck me and my husband have opted out-if anyone asked why baby lazygal isn't getting baptised I'll be telling them its because I don't support international child abuse rings. Family values my arse.

MungBean

I think its time the Roman Catholic church was labelled an enemy of mankind and torn asunder to see what other atrocities it has hidden in its vaults in the Vatican. The Vatican presides over a world wide organisation responsible some absolutely horrendous things. The UN should be occupying the Vatican and ripping the place to bits to investigate and hold everyone accountable for the evil it has unleashed on the human race.

Son Of A Vidic

Abuse, lies and deceit, the Church has it down to a fine art. Rome's history of abuse and evils acts is truly global and spans the centuries. So these latest revelations come as no surprise. Their wealth and corruption disgust me, Men of God they say? My fúcking arse they are, with their lust for power and status.

An organisation that is literally swimming in vast wealth. An Emperor who sits on a vast treasure trove in Rome, looted from many nations who were converted and butchered under the sword. Yet he speaks of world hunger and injustice, look in the mirror you fúcking hypocrite. Maybe even sell some of your priceless art works and raise a few hundred million for the victims you claim to represent.

Biggins

If it was ANY other organisation than a religious based one, they would be in any year be classified as a criminal organisation by any stretch of the imagination.
...But they are not because they hide cowardly (and they know it) behind the easy "we are a religion" title - and governments are afraid to tackle them big time. ...And why would they? Sometimes they are in co-hoots with them! No?

Then read about the Australian stolen babies/children scandal too here or here or here!

...Or when they stole babies in France: http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/pius-xii-told-churches-not-to-return-holocaust-war-babies-1.145571

...Then there is Canada too - as well as other stuff most people have not even heard about yet: http://banishedbabies-canada.blogspot.com/2011/10/canada-church-stole-native-land-by.html

mongoman

Sick, twisted, corrupt, that's the good old RCC for ya. Yet still the meek will blindly follow and obey.:rolleyes:

lazygal

mongoman wrote: »

Sick, twisted, corrupt, that's the good old RCC for ya. Yet still the meek will blindly follow and obey.:rolleyes:

I sometimes despair, when ANOTHER friend has their baby christened or marries in a church what it will take to say "You know what? This religion doesn't reflect who I am and what I want from life". With some people, I feel it would take the Pope burning down their house and assualting their children as they flee, while TELLING them how much money the church has locked away in secret accounts to ponder on their faith and what kind of institution they support. And even then they'd probably waver about not having a christening, communion and confirmation and throwing a few bob into the basket.

mongoman

lazygal wrote: »

I sometimes despair, when ANOTHER friend has their baby christened or marries in a church what it will take to say "You know what? This religion doesn't reflect who I am and what I want from life". With some people, I feel it would take the Pope burning down their house and assualting their children as they flee, while TELLING them how much money the church has locked away in secret accounts to ponder on their faith and what kind of institution they support. And even then they'd probably waver about not having a christening, communion and confirmation and throwing a few bob into the basket.

A few months back a friend of mine and I were discussing the Church ect,ect. Now he would hold them in a similar contempt like I do and yet he still goes to mass. When I asked how he can do this? Do you know what he said?

"Ah sure, I have to be buried somewhere." Which just about sums up why the church oppressed us for so long.

lazygal

mongoman wrote: »

A few months back a friend of mine and I were discussing the Church ect,ect. Now he would hold them in a similar contempt like I do and yet he still goes to mass. When I asked how he can do this? Do you know what he said?

"Ah sure, I have to be buried somewhere." Which just about sums up why the church oppressed us for so long.

When we got married, the number of friends and people our age who asked us what church it was in and were :eek: when we told them it was a humanist service was amazing. It hadn't occured to them that you didn't have to marry in a church. A couple of friends (now ex friends obv!) didn't come because they didn't think it was a "real wedding". One friend of mine said she'd love a personal service like ours but "Her mum would kill her" if she didn't have a church wedding.

I know we're going to get the same codology when babs arrives and people ask when the christening is. We also declined requests to be god parents for obvious reasons and the amount of "Ah sure its only symbolic, would ye get over it" was unreal.

My conclusion: The bible is right, people are sheep.

fran oconnor

The worst thing i find, is people that don't go to church from one end of the year to the next, then they decide to get married and have the big church wedding, its the most two faced way of doing things just to go along with tradition..

lazygal

fran oconnor wrote: »

The worst thing i find, is people that don't to church from one end of the year to the next, then they decide to get married and have the big church wedding, its the most two faced way of doing things just to go along with tradition..

Yes, and when you point this out the response is invariable "Ah Granny Mary/Mammy/Uncle Pat would be very upset, sure it's a family day out".
I also refuse to listen to people whinge about having to do premarriage courses, as I told one mate he doesn't have to do it, it costs €150 for a marriage in Ireland and a five minute ceremony, if you want the church put up with it and quit the whining. He couldn't understand why, as a fellow non believer, I wasn't supporting his moaning.

Biggins

I keep hearing this line that "well we are staying with the organisation to try and bring about change in it" - my reply to that, is there has been many a good folk in the organisation over many hundreds of years and they previously have not managed to bring about much needed change. The head(s) of the organisation have continuously and without hesitation continued on with their criminal antics over many generations - and so far there is NO sign of it ending.
Right now, anyone that I see attending church to stand below its organisational representatives, be preached down to and told "Go do no harm" - are being made a fool out of and the piss is being taken out of them as the heads of the organisation that owns the very building they stand in, is carrying on elsewhere taking the further piss (and money) out of the people, governments and even other whole land masses at times!

I see people going into a church building every Sunday - I see sheep!

im invisible

There needs to be some kind of Inquisition...

ejmaztec

The Catholic Church got off to a good start, then descended into the depths of depravity, megalomania, greed and bullsh1t over the centuries to become what it is today.

It needs a fucking good clear-out.

fran oconnor

ejmaztec wrote: »

The Catholic Church got off to a good start, then descended into the depths of depravity, megalomania, greed and bullsh1t over the centuries to become what it is today.

It needs a fucking good clear-out.

Being honest, all religons need a good clear out.

mikemac

Happened under the regime of General Franco

Twenty five posts later, every post is on the Church and not one on the governments role in what happened. The OP is still the only one who mentioned Franco
What's going on? You'd think the Church was running the state in Spain

IvyTheTerrible

fran oconnor wrote: »

The worst thing i find, is people that don't go to church from one end of the year to the next, then they decide to get married and have the big church wedding, its the most two faced way of doing things just to go along with tradition..

This is the reason why I will not be baptising my baby when he arrives. My mother has already said she will get it done anyway, her logic is that of Pascal's wager...if I don't believe it makes no difference to me, and if I'm wrong, the little one will be "protected" in some way.

Biggins

ejmaztec wrote: »

The Catholic Church got off to a good start, then descended into the depths of depravity, megalomania, greed and bullsh1t over the centuries to become what it is today.

It needs a fucking good clear-out.

I disagree. It needs to be shut down.
The decent parts in it that are good, should go set-up their own organisation and tell the present lot with their outdated rules, attitudes and methods, to go fcuk themselves (and not kids) into oblivion!

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

...My mother has already said she will get it done anyway, her logic is that of Pascal's wager.

My mother threatened to do that to my kids when my first child was born. I told her to fcuk off.
I told her had she even tried, I would call the Gardi. Have her arrested for kidnapping, have the priest arrested for being an accomplice in a crime after the fact and make a complete show of her.
(...And trust me - I WOULD)
I also barred her from seeing my first child for over 6/7 moths till she got the message.
She did.

IvyTheTerrible

mikemac wrote: »

Happened under the regime of General Franco

Twenty five posts later, every post is on the Church and not one on the governments role in what happened. The OP is still the only one who mentioned the government

What's going on? You'd think the Church was running the state in Spain

Also, the role of people's families too. Not every unmarried mother in Ireland went into Magdalen laundries, their parents put them in too, it wasn't just the church.

mikemac

Good point Ivy

People sent away from bringing shame on the family or so they believed
But the families role is rarely discussed

Yakult

Is it time to burn down the churches yet?

gurramok

mikemac wrote: »

Happened under the regime of General Franco

Twenty five posts later, every post is on the Church and not one on the governments role in what happened. The OP is still the only one who mentioned Franco
What's going on? You'd think the Church was running the state in Spain

The article says it continued long after Franco died in 1975. The church played a pivotal role in stealing the babies under Franco's rule and after Franco's rule up to the 90's.

sbsquarepants

Scummy, evil organistaion, does scummy, evil thing.
Is anybody really surprised? I'm certainly not.
They will give all the usual excuses and platitudes and then do the same thing again and again, because they are rotten to their very core, from the nazi cover up merchant at the top, down to the trainee at the bottom.
I mean who would want to join an organisation that has, over it's entire history, caused so much suffering and misery if there wasn't something wrong with you in the first place!

eyescreamcone

"Shur they're not all bad"

fran oconnor

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

This is the reason why I will not be baptising my baby when he arrives. My mother has already said she will get it done anyway, her logic is that of Pascal's wager...if I don't believe it makes no difference to me, and if I'm wrong, the little one will be "protected" in some way.

What has your mother got to do with your child getting baptised??. I don't think the choice should be made for a child, i think when someone is old enough to understand religon, then they should be let make their own choice ..

ejmaztec

fran oconnor wrote: »

Being honest, all religons need a good clear out.

That goes without saying, but this thread's about the activities of the RC church.

IvyTheTerrible

fran oconnor wrote: »

What has your mother got to do with your child getting baptised??. I don't think the choice should be made for a child, i think when someone is old enough to understand religon, then they should be let make their own choice ..

I agree with you. My mother has nothing to do with it but she has strong-ish views on that sort of things (It took her a while to get used to the fact that I would not get married in a church, and that now I will be having a baby without being married!)

krudler

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

This is the reason why I will not be baptising my baby when he arrives. My mother has already said she will get it done anyway, her logic is that of Pascal's wager...if I don't believe it makes no difference to me, and if I'm wrong, the little one will be "protected" in some way.

you've got to love catholic logic with stuff like that.

unbaptised baby condemed= god looks out for them anyway.

if the point of baptising people is make them one of the club, then surely god has no interest in them otherwise, and if he does care equally for unbaptised people, whats the point of baptism to begin with?

a couple I know got married and wanted to do the registry office thing but no, had to be a church wedding so the family would take it more seriously as a "real" wedding, even though none of them go to mass outside funerals and weddings, ah hypocrisy thy name is catholicism.

lazygal

krudler wrote: »

A couple I know got married and wanted to do the registry office thing but no, had to be a church wedding so the family would take it more seriously as a "real" wedding, even though none of them go to mass outside funerals and weddings, ah hypocrisy thy name is catholicism.

I actually have no sympathy for such couples. We also got the "Would you not have a church wedding" from our parents, but we said no, the day of our marriage was not the day to be telling lies and promising to raise children Catholic. What would be the worst that would happen if that couple didn't have a church wedding? I know someone who's mother threw a hissy fit, but when she realised her attendance was not a deal breaker, she dutifully attended and enjoyed the civil ceremony.
If my parents or in laws had used the "we won't come so" thread, I'd have calmly said "That's your choice, you're an adult". The more people give into this kind of bullying the longer it'll take to change things. If I thought my parents attendance at one of the most importance occasions in life was dependent on having the service in a particular building conducted by a man claiming to have the power to turn wafer into human flesh, I think I'd happily have told them to stay home.
Adults are the one's in charge, their parents had their wedding and made their own choices. If you're still pleasing your parents for the sake of peace and quiet at the expense of who you are as an adult, I think there's something wrong.

bonzodog2

The film Oranges and Sunshine (2010)

(from IMDB):
Oranges and Sunshine tells the story of Margaret Humphreys, a social worker from Nottingham, who uncovered one of the most significant social scandals in recent times: the forced migration of children from the United Kingdom. Almost singlehandedly, against overwhelming odds and with little regard for her own well-being, Margaret reunited thousands of families, brought authorities to account and worldwide attention to an extraordinary miscarriage of justice. She discovered a secret that the British government had kept hidden for years: one hundred and thirty thousand children in care had been sent abroad to commonwealth countries, mainly Australia. Children as young as four had been told that their parents were dead, and been sent to children's homes on the other side of the world. Many were subjected to appalling abuse. They were promised oranges and sunshine, they got hard labour and life in institutions.

Dudess

bonzodog2 wrote: »

The film Oranges and Sunshine (2010)

Saw a drama series about that, The Leaving of Liverpool.

Grim.

jimmycrackcorm

Social services steals babies all the time from "bad" parents to give to good parents. It's called fostering.

Blowfish

mikemac wrote: »

Happened under the regime of General Franco

Twenty five posts later, every post is on the Church and not one on the governments role in what happened. The OP is still the only one who mentioned Franco
What's going on? You'd think the Church was running the state in Spain

The Franco regime was overthrown and no longer exists. The Catholic church is alive and kicking.

Dudess

It was an official operation in Australia - applied to aboriginal children (the movie Rabbit Proof Fence is about that).

Biggins

lazygal wrote: »

I actually have no sympathy for such couples. We also got the "Would you not have a church wedding" from our parents, but we said no, the day of our marriage was not the day to be telling lies and promising to raise children Catholic...

...Adults are the one's in charge, their parents had their wedding and made their own choices. If you're still pleasing your parents for the sake of peace and quiet at the expense of who you are as an adult, I think there's something wrong.

I agree. The now wife ("Madmammy" on the forum) and I got married in an English registry office. We outright refused to get married in a church and be hypocrites.
Instead we got married at mid-day during a television conference we are turning up for.
(conference in the morning, disappeared for a few hours at dinner time to get married - then back to the conference again.)
...And this was during the aforementioned period when we refused to let my mother see our child (again for a fore mentioned reason). We got married without her attending too. We have no regrets. We live our lives by our choices and ideology - not by our ancestors!

Lollipops23

lazygal wrote: »

When we got married, the number of friends and people our age who asked us what church it was in and were :eek: when we told them it was a humanist service was amazing. It hadn't occured to them that you didn't have to marry in a church. A couple of friends (now ex friends obv!) didn't come because they didn't think it was a "real wedding". One friend of mine said she'd love a personal service like ours but "Her mum would kill her" if she didn't have a church wedding.

I know we're going to get the same codology when babs arrives and people ask when the christening is. We also declined requests to be god parents for obvious reasons and the amount of "Ah sure its only symbolic, would ye get over it" was unreal.

My conclusion: The bible is right, people are sheep.

I had a similar (upsetting) conversation with some extended family members a few months ago- I mentioned that if myself and the OH ever tie the knot we've agreed it won't be in a church, as we both find it hypocritical to marry in a church you never attend. We also don't believe in any of that mumbo jumbo.

I was stunned and a bit annoyed when a relative- who married in a church last year, and never actually attends mass- said "Ooh I wouldn't feel like it counted if it wasn't in a church."

That's one less off my guest list so....

ClickityClick

A friend of mine gave birth to a healthy baby boy, over 40 years ago. She saw the baby being taken away to be cleaned up, but was told the following morning that her baby had died. She never again saw her baby, and was told to forget that she ever had him, and not to speak or discuss it with anybody, ever. She was under the impression that her baby was interred in the special plot in Glasnevin, but later discovered that he wasn't there, but in another one. She does have come papers that say that her baby was interred, but who's to say there was ever a body in the little box. Could, was is being uncovered in other countries, have happened here?

lazygal

Lollipops23 wrote: »

I had a similar (upsetting) conversation with some extended family members a few months ago- I mentioned that if myself and the OH ever tie the knot we've agreed it won't be in a church, as we both find it hypocritical to marry in a church you never attend. We also don't believe in any of that mumbo jumbo.

I was stunned and a bit annoyed when a relative- who married in a church last year, and never actually attends mass- said "Ooh I wouldn't feel like it counted if it wasn't in a church."

That's one less off my guest list so....

It is very upsetting, and even more so when it comes from your peer group because we're the generation who's grown up with the scandals and knowing what the church's rotten core is like. As I said earlier in the thread, I genuinely wonder what it would take for some people to decide after everything that's happened, the church is not for them.
Ironically, the more religious relatives were delighted to celebrate with us and more than one said afterwards how nice it was that we didn't just do what everyone else does and have a church wedding. One in particular does the flowers in her church and said she's sick and tired of demands from couples who've no interest in the religious element and complain when told what music, readings etc they can use. If you want to use the services, put up and shut up or get married somewhere else FFS.

Biggins

ClickityClick wrote: »

A friend of mine gave birth to a healthy baby boy, over 40 years ago. She saw the baby being taken away to be cleaned up, but was told the following morning that her baby had died. She never again saw her baby, and was told to forget that she ever had him, and not to speak or discuss it with anybody, ever. She was under the impression that her baby was interred in the special plot in Glasnevin, but later discovered that he wasn't there, but in another one. She does have come papers that say that her baby was interred, but who's to say there was ever a body in the little box. Could, was is being uncovered in other countries, have happened here?

Honest answer? Who knows!
We don't probably even know the half of what the hell they got up to (or still are)!

DrumSteve

The Roman Catholic Church has destroyed the original message of Jesus in it's relentless persuit of power.