"We are the 53%"

Permabear

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Athlone_Bhoy

Permabear wrote: »

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Will you please ask the 53% if one of them could send me the law that says they have to pay income tax.

Permabear

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20Cent

Trust permabear to mock an actual grassroots movement day in day out and then make a post about a fake one.

Overheal

Athlone_Bhoy wrote: »

Will you please ask the 53% if one of them could send me the law that says they have to pay income tax.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

That's just for starters.

Overheal

20Cent wrote: »

Trust permabear to mock an actual grassroots movement day in day out and then make a post about a fake one.

What's fake about it?

Chuck Stone

This malicious attempt to aggressively manipulate public opinion is deliberately misleading and offensively condescending.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/edward-murray/we-are-the-53_b_1011543.html

(Excerpt)

October 18, 2011
politics
The Huffington Post

Edward Murray

Why We Are the 53% Fits Into We Are the 99%... Besides the Math

Erick Erickson, a man who would have you believe that he is just your typical, fed-up American, put together a website called We Are the 53% in response to the We Are the 99% and Occupy Wall Street movements.

Under the umbrella of We Are the 53%, Erickson mocks the millions of Americans who are struggling financially with an audacious letter detailing his own tale of woe:

I work 3 jobs.
I have a house I can't sell.
But I don't blame Wall Street.
Suck it up you whiners.
I am the 53% subsidizing you so you can hang out on Wall Street and complain.

Erickson is the perfect face for the We Are the 53% movement with his statements of incomplete information that run about 53% true.

Breaking down Erickson's letter:

• I work 3 jobs.

His 3 jobs are: Blogger for redstate.org , CNN television personality, and WSB radio host (A post previously held by Herman Cain, who took home a tidy $165K/year in that position.)

Erickson has a pretty lucrative workweek of 20 or so hours there. If I were in his position, I'd work those 3 jobs, too. I'd probably even pick up a weekend shift at CNN just to make it a full, backbreaking 25 hours workweek.

• I have a house I can't sell.

Which house is he talking about? According to Lee Fang of thinkprogress.org, he was referring to his first home and not his recently-purchased second home.

• I am the 53% subsidizing you so you can hang out on Wall Street and complain.

Here, he deliberately ignores the protestors who do have jobs and therefore renders his statement completely irrelevant. Let's also remember that the group he believes he is "subsidizing" includes non-taxpaying entities like, say it with me: "Bank of America, General Electric, Exxon Mobil, and Citigroup."

There is no problem with Erickson being a successful individual. However, there is a problem in Erick Erickson making a mockery of the financial hardship of millions of Americans. Erick Erickson is making a mockery of the 6.2 million Americans who have been unemployed for 6 months or more (the highest rate since The Great Depression). Erick Erickson is making a mockery of those who lost tens and hundreds of thousands of dollars from their retirement funds.

Most disturbing is the fact that Erick Erickson is making a mockery of the typical American's intelligence. This malicious attempt to aggressively manipulate public opinion is deliberately misleading and offensively condescending.

AhSureTisGrand

Overheal wrote: »

What's fake about it?

They're not protesting anywhere because they're concerned with such selfish matters as making a living for themselves

20Cent

Overheal wrote: »

What's fake about it?

It was started by a guy called Erick Erickson who is a right wing blogger and shock jock. Some of the photo's have been found to be fake.

matthew8

20Cent wrote: »

It was started by a guy called Erick Erickson who is a right wing blogger and shock jock. Some of the photo's have been found to be fake.

How have they been found to be fake?

Nice to see that the 53% are using facts to back themselves up. The "99%" are really <1%.

20Cent

Here's at least two fake.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2122521

Permabear

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20Cent

Permabear wrote: »

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Rich people can be against economic injustice as well, Warren Buffet and Moore for example.

laoch na mona

many people dont get the chances they got that is why the wall street protests started
the first post on their page is a lad on 63k a year after tax what does he have to complain about

Athlone_Bhoy

Overheal wrote: »

What's fake about it?

10 years to pay off student loans? You seriously think that's a good thing. He has made earning a fortune, but what about other people.

Permabear

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Red Hand

Permabear wrote: »

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I thought that Buffet has pledged to pass on most of his fortune to charitable causes before/when he dies? He already has passed on a couple of billion.

matthew8

20Cent wrote: »

Rich people can be against economic injustice as well, Warren Buffet and Moore for example.

You are deluded if you think Warren Buffet's tax idea would actually affect himself.

matthew8

laoch na mona wrote: »

many people dont get the chances they got that is why the wall street protests started
the first post on their page is a lad on 63k a year after tax what does he have to complain about

Do my eyes deceive me? Would you tell someone who had their 90k bank account hacked for 27k that the have nothing to complain about? Because that's what's happened.

20Cent

matthew8 wrote: »

You are deluded if you think Warren Buffet's tax idea would actually affect himself.

Meh, just saying it is possible for a wealthy person to have sympathy for others not really interested in discussing the pro's and cons of particular individuals.

matthew8

20Cent wrote: »

Meh, just saying it is possible for a wealthy person to have sympathy for others not really interested in discussing the pro's and cons of particular individuals.

Many wealthy people like Bill Gates have sympath for others and are happy to give their money away but just aren't fond of the idea of the government pushing them around.

20Cent

matthew8 wrote: »

Many wealthy people like Bill Gates have sympath for others and are happy to give their money away but just aren't fond of the idea of the government pushing them around.

I agree.
So what?

Looking at the photo's on the 53% tumblr they are mostly saying they have had pretty tough lives worked hard and made something of themselves. They then say that the Occupy Wall Street people should do the same and stop complaining. If this is so then they are ok with the wholesale fraud on Wall St. They are also saying the occupy protesters want something for nothing which is untrue they want those who destroyed the economy held to account and economic justice.
When these people all get together in a protest and get maced in the face get back to me. SO far its a big pile of obvious astroturf. Middle class people attacking other middle class and the poor for the 1%.

matthew8

20Cent wrote: »

When these people all get together in a protest and get maced in the face get back to me. SO far its a big pile of obvious astroturf. Middle class people attacking other middle class and the poor for the 1%.

The whole idea is that they're not going out and complaining about not being given enough money.

20Cent

matthew8 wrote: »

The whole idea is that they're not going out and complaining about not being given enough money.

Thats not what occupy is complaining about maybe you should read more about it.

Permabear

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20Cent

Permabear wrote: »

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No they want to end the corruption and greed of the 1% which is damaging everyone else. Your argument is a non sequitor they are just looking for a fair chance.

Chuck Stone

matthew8 wrote: »

Many wealthy people like Bill Gates have sympath for others and are happy to give their money away but just aren't fond of the idea of the government pushing them around.

Bill gates was happy to have the government and state enforcing his copyrights which allowed MS to become a monstrosity of a corporation which completely dominated the software market allowing it to charge vastly inflated prices for it's software and engage in predatory practices.

MS versus EU.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Microsoft_competition_case

MS versus USA

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft

Athlone_Bhoy

Permabear wrote: »

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Is there a law to pay tax? Simple yes or no.

Even Ron Paul said there wasn't.

Jonny7

20Cent wrote: »

No they want to end the corruption and greed of the 1% which is damaging everyone else. Your argument is a non sequitor they are just looking for a fair chance.

What are proposed solutions from the "Occupy Wall Street" movement?

I am reading the minutes of their meetings (http://nycga.cc/) and it sounds a bit familiar

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CsK4mN-0JI

Overheal

laoch na mona wrote: »

the first post on their page is a lad on 63k a year after tax what does he have to complain about

So you are assuming that he was handed the salary on a silver spoon, or do you think he worked for it?

My old man grosses almost $200k a year but not because he got it handed to him, but because he put himself through school fueling up private planes down in Daytona Beach and working as a cook, Volunteered in the Coast Guard up in Alaska for 4 years and has coming on 25 years or more experience in the aviation engineering field. He would be part of the 53%. I can see why he's understandably pissed that he pays more in taxes than I can make in 3 years.

10 years to pay off student loans? You seriously think that's a good thing.

I don't think he was making a prideful point about it. 10 years is not a length of time you want to be in debt for, ideally. But hell, I'll have to pull that trigger myself before too long.

Permabear

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Manic Moran

Bizarre argument easily solved by referencing the law.

Title 26, United States Code, Subtitle A, Income Taxes

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/usc_sup_01_26_10_A.html

Ron Paul does not believe that the law does not exist, he believes that the law is without basis and should not exist. Unfortunately for him, the Supreme Court has opined unanimously on the matter, and the legal question is about as solidly closed as it's possible to get.

NTM

hooradiation

Permabear wrote: »

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And by way of highlighting the rampant nonsense of these "53%" people - Actually, You're the 47%

Overheal

hooradiation wrote: »

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And by way of highlighting the rampant nonsense of these "53%" people - Actually, You're the 47%[/Quote]
Now that's some nonsense.

edanto

Permabear, I think you are misrepresenting what the #ows group are upset about. I'm not sure why, but saying things like "But that's not enough for the 99%, who want their money forcibly redistributed through the coercive power of government. " just sounds like you want to take the p1ss out of them because you don't like them. It's demonstrably untrue.

They want things like corporate social welfare abolished, they want the feeding trough of politicians, lobbyists and corporations to dry up and they want corporatism tackled, as opposed to capitalism.

If you take the time to get to know them, you might even like them.



The dentist in the picture is justifyably angry at being conned, but why would he express his rage in the direction of #ows, he should surely be angry at the family that conned him. 53% campaign reeks of astroturf.

FreudianSlippers

The 53% argument is way more logical than the 99% argument. Almost 50% of the USA pays little to no tax and the middle class is taxed into a lower economic bracket.
1/3 of my wages going to the government? No thanks.

20Cent

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

The 53% argument is way more logical than the 99% argument. Almost 50% of the USA pays little to no tax and the middle class is taxed into a lower economic bracket.
1/3 of my wages going to the government? No thanks.

50% pay little or no tax!!
Right wing lie.

Overheal

20Cent wrote: »

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Income Tax; and it's true. Though closer to 46%.



http://articles.sfgate.com/2011-08-08/news/29863290_1_federal-income-tax-policy-center-roberton-williams

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=125997180

as a reminder:

Permabear wrote:

"We are the 53%" refers to the proportion of Americans who actually pay federal income tax.

20Cent

Overheal wrote: »

Income Tax; and it's true. Though closer to 46%.



http://articles.sfgate.com/2011-08-08/news/29863290_1_federal-income-tax-policy-center-roberton-williams

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=125997180

as a reminder:

Freudianwhatever said "Almost 50% of the USA pays little to no tax" no mention of income tax only. If you ad up all the other taxes the poor pay more as a percentage of earnings.

Overheal

20Cent wrote: »

Freudianwhatever said "Almost 50% of the USA pays little to no tax" no mention of income tax only. If you ad up all the other taxes the poor pay more as a percentage of earnings.

Freudian slipped?

FreudianSlippers

20Cent wrote: »

Freudianwhatever said "Almost 50% of the USA pays little to no tax" no mention of income tax only. If you ad up all the other taxes the poor pay more as a percentage of earnings.

I thought it was clear from my post I was referring to income tax.

Although, I don't follow the point about "adding up all the taxes". Are poor people paying a lot of property and inheritance tax. I could believe it in sales tax, which not all states have, but I don't think the maths add up in that scenario either.

Overheal wrote: »

Freudian slipped?

Well done. :claps:

Overheal

It's almost useless to account for commerce taxes, as they're very indiscriminate, and the closes thing to flat you can get. Aside from those on food stamps (or those scamming the food stamps) We pretty much all pay the same rate of tax for food, computers, gas, guns, jewelery, furniture, lighting and heating, etc.

JuliusCaesar

Would you regard the New York Times as a reliable source?

Even if the discussion is restricted to federal taxes (for which the statistics are better), a vast majority of households end up paying federal taxes. Congressional Budget Office data suggests that, at most, about 10 percent of all households pay no net federal taxes.

As usual, the simplistic tabloid view of a situation is to cause maximum outrage on minimal or slanted evidence.

20Cent

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I thought it was clear from my post I was referring to income tax.

Although, I don't follow the point about "adding up all the taxes". Are poor people paying a lot of property and inheritance tax. I could believe it in sales tax, which not all states have, but I don't think the maths add up in that scenario either.

Yeah sure :rolleyes:

Anyway there are loads of taxes, payroll, social security, sales etc etc.

If you want a good tax story check out the latest Goldman Sachs scam. Owe about 40 million in back taxes in the UK due to some offshore account swindle, have a word with the revenue and have it reduced by 10 million. Nice work if you can get it! You or the "53%" try that and see what happens.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/may/13/mps-demand-details-of-deal-to-let-goldman-sachs-avoid-tax

Overheal

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

Would you regard the New York Times as a reliable source?



As usual, the simplistic tabloid view of a situation is to cause maximum outrage on minimal or slanted evidence.

All federal taxes, including Medicaire and Social security Payroll taxes - which everyone pays.

The statistic for Federal Income tax, 46-47%, is still accurate. And it seems fair to focus on that, given thats what is really being debated here, with things like the Buffet Tax.

Memnoch

More semantic pedantic arguments.

Divide and conquer.

This is the public sector vs the private sector all over again. The elites are happy to watch the rest of us squabble against each other over the few scraps that are left while they continue to get obscenely wealthy.

This is very similar. It is true that the tax burden is borne disproportionately by the working middle class. But what they need to realise is that a) Stopping corporate corruption and influence over government goes beyond a simple matter of income taxes. It's a matter of fundamental freedom and of functioning democracy. The latter, something which Right wingers constantly chant about while seeming to forget what it is supposed to be all about.

b) Getting corporations and the wealthy to pay their fair share will reduce the tax burden on the middle class and/or they will get a hell of a lot more bang for their buck.

The idea of complaining about or raging against the poor who pay no taxes is pointless and misguided. You cannot squeeze blood out of a turnip.

For me it is a basic question of humanity and fairness.

For someone earning 20k a year, 20% is 2k, which leaves them with 18k to feed their family etc. For someone earning 1 million a year, 20% would be 200k, which still leaves them with 800k to live in complete luxury.

Going back to the tax rate that did not seem to hamper the economy in any way in the Clinton years makes very obvious sense to me if you are serious about reducing the deficit. The rich will still be very rich.

P.S. I can guarantee you that the family trying to survive is going to miss that 2k a lot more than the family that can buy one less porche that year.

sarumite

Maybe they will start a facebook page as well.

hooradiation

Overheal wrote: »

Now that's some nonsense.

not at all, but hey if it makes you feel better, go for it.

Overheal

Memnoch wrote: »

More semantic pedantic arguments.

Divide and conquer.

This is the public sector vs the private sector all over again. The elites are happy to watch the rest of us squabble against each other over the few scraps that are left while they continue to get obscenely wealthy.

Agreed. The longer this goes on the longer it becomes apparent that the OWS and the Tea Party have virtually the same values.

FreudianSlippers

The issue is that the $1million earners are not paying that much tax.

It's the person making $150,000 paying 28% Federal tax and then having to pay (depending on the state) around 11% state tax; leaving you with around $101,800.

That's a lot of tax.

JuliusCaesar

Overheal wrote: »

Agreed. The longer this goes on the longer it becomes apparent that the OWS and the Tea Party have virtually the same values.

That's like saying that Padraig Pearse and James Connolly had the same values.
:eek: They agreed on ONE topic - the necessity to revolt against the British and establish an Irish Republic. Yes, they have one aim in common - but I think you'll find their values are extremely different.