Objections to Incense?

PatricaMcKay2

The Church of Ireland has canons forbidding the use of incense in its churches, though this is ignored by a few parishes, it is something that many people do seem still to have a strong aversion too. Wolfsbane has mentioned the use of incense among this objections to Roman Catholicism which surprised me, after all it is mentioned in the book of Revelations and is a very ancient costum going back to the Old Testament Church; now I am not saying that people SHOULD use incense in worship, but are there any good reasons why they SHOULD NOT? There is nothing in the Bible forbidding it.

ISAW

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

The Church of Ireland has canons forbidding the use of incense in its churches, though this is ignored by a few parishes, it is something that many people do seem still to have a strong aversion too. Wolfsbane has mentioned the use of incense among this objections to Roman Catholicism which surprised me, after all it is mentioned in the book of Revelations and is a very ancient costum going back to the Old Testament Church; now I am not saying that people SHOULD use incense in worship, but are there any good reasons why they SHOULD NOT? There is nothing in the Bible forbidding it.

They are particularly fond of "smells and bells" in Trinity College Chapel. seriously High church.

santing

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

...now I am not saying that people SHOULD use incense in worship, but are there any good reasons why they SHOULD NOT? There is nothing in the Bible forbidding it.

Describe Worship...
Worship according to the Lord Jesus in John 4 is no longer connected to a place (the temple mountain) and by implication to the prescribed service held there. Worship, he says is "in spirit and truth." Or as it is described in Hebrews: "Now even the first covenant had regulations for worship and an earthly place of holiness. " (Heb 9:1 ESV) followed by "For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities," (Heb 10:1 ESV)
When we need outward "aspects" or rules to enhance our worship experience we need to seriously ask ourselves what happened to our worship. Worship is coming close to God, knowing that we are close and praising Him. He invites us to come close, He poured out the Spirit of Sonship in our hearts. As such anything is allowed to "enhance" our joy/worship, but if we rely on the anything, if I can only enter my father's presence in certain robes, singing special hymns and under the smoke of incense, I think He will raise an eyebrow ...

PatricaMcKay2

I would worry more about the use of pop music in worship which distracts from the Spirit and the Truth and turns what should be about honouring the creator into carnal enjoyment. Im not saying that people should use incense, I just dont see why not?

Baggio1

i reallly enjoy the pro cathedral latin mass at 11am on sundays with insence etc sooo traditional for me and takes me back to when i was a kid 200 years ago haha

Keaton

Incense may irritate some people with allergies.

There is some information about Catholic use of incense here: http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/INCENSE.htm

I like incense. God likes it too - it's in the Book of Revelations. He made it. We don't use it nearly enough in the Catholic Church here. I have some allergies, but it does not upset me.

gimmebroadband

Baggio1 wrote: »

i reallly enjoy the pro cathedral latin mass at 11am on sundays with insence etc sooo traditional for me and takes me back to when i was a kid 200 years ago haha

Used also at Benediction, and the Divine Praises.

The Quadratic Equation

Gold Frankincense and Myrrh were all given as gifts to our Lord at his birth.

santing

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

I would worry more about the use of pop music in worship which distracts from the Spirit and the Truth and turns what should be about honouring the creator into carnal enjoyment. Im not saying that people should use incense, I just dont see why not?

Its not necessarily the Pop in the music that causes distractions... Many people confuse worship with "a show" for a good performance you should attend a theater. It might be good practice to help people to settle down, to relax but in the end that part of a service is not really "worship."
Why not to use "incense"? Incense on its is not worship - it was part of the OT worship service, which has been replaced by "the real thing." Neither is singing, music etc "worship." True worship is something we bring, not materially, but from our experiences and knowledge of God. We can express that in things we do (singing, music, praying, clapping, dancing, reading etc.) and even in things we give (financially) - but not in incense, clothes or other. Worship is defined by both "spirit" (i.e. non material) and "truth" (i.e. both correct, right as to the nature of God, and right in our expression of it).

PatricaMcKay2

santing wrote: »

Its not necessarily the Pop in the music that causes distractions... Many people confuse worship with "a show" for a good performance you should attend a theater. It might be good practice to help people to settle down, to relax but in the end that part of a service is not really "worship."
Why not to use "incense"? Incense on its is not worship - it was part of the OT worship service, which has been replaced by "the real thing." Neither is singing, music etc "worship." True worship is something we bring, not materially, but from our experiences and knowledge of God. We can express that in things we do (singing, music, praying, clapping, dancing, reading etc.) and even in things we give (financially) - but not in incense, clothes or other. Worship is defined by both "spirit" (i.e. non material) and "truth" (i.e. both correct, right as to the nature of God, and right in our expression of it).

Are you a quaker? Because you are sounding like one.

Are you human? Because dancing in general brings us into the body and away from recollection. I dont understand also the radical distinction between material things such as clapping and clothes, incense, etc.

Onesimus

Baggio1 wrote: »

i reallly enjoy the pro cathedral latin mass at 11am on sundays with insence etc sooo traditional for me and takes me back to when i was a kid 200 years ago haha

You should check out the Eastern Catholic Liturgy in Dublin. That'll take you back to the 4th century;). I also like the incense they use. I use it too.

I dont like the incencse in the roman parishes. It's too fake and filled with chemicals. I like the pure authentic stuff from Mount Athos/Greece

But a maronite Catholic friend of mine sent me some from Lebanon. It was the sweetest incense I ever came across. I shouldnt of wasted it all in one week. :eek:

I have some coated in Lavender. The charcoal here is rubbish too as it sparks and then dies out like straight away but beggers cant be choosers.

santing

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

Are you a quaker? Because you are sounding like one.

Sorry, not guilty.

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

Are you human?

Last time I checked that was my condition.

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

Because dancing in general brings us into the body and away from recollection.

Dancing and clapping wouldn't be my "thing", but it is a way we can express ourselves. Emotions per se aren't bad, being ruled by them isn't worship....

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

I dont understand also the radical distinction between material things such as clapping and clothes, incense, etc.

Clapping is a common activity used for expressing consent with a (major) achievement... I think this could fit worship quite well. Incense however in common day usage is used for relaxation techniques, idol worship (Hindu etc) and probably forms of TM and yoga ... it helps the human mind to switch off, go blank. This is opposite to Christian Worship, where mind activity is required.

PDN

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

Are you a quaker? Because you are sounding like one.

Are you human? Because dancing in general brings us into the body and away from recollection. I dont understand also the radical distinction between material things such as clapping and clothes, incense, etc.

Are you a gnostic? Because you are sounding like one? :P

The idea that the body is somehow evil, and only the spirit or soul are pure, owes more to neoplatonist Greek philosophy than to biblical theology.

God wants to sanctify our spirit, soul and body to be preserved blameless at the coming of Jesus Christ.

Killer Pigeon

Baggio1 wrote: »

i reallly enjoy the pro cathedral latin mass at 11am on sundays with insence etc sooo traditional for me and takes me back to when i was a kid 200 years ago haha

Unless you want to die young because of its effect on the health of the congregation...

alex73

Onesimus wrote: »

You should check out the Eastern Catholic Liturgy in Dublin. That'll take you back to the 4th century;). I also like the incense they use. I use it too.

I dont like the incencse in the roman parishes. It's too fake and filled with chemicals. I like the pure authentic stuff from Mount Athos/Greece

But a maronite Catholic friend of mine sent me some from Lebanon. It was the sweetest incense I ever came across. I shouldnt of wasted it all in one week. :eek:

I have some coated in Lavender. The charcoal here is rubbish too as it sparks and then dies out like straight away but beggers cant be choosers.

Nope. Incense used in the Catholic Church is often sourced from the same suppliers that supply the Orthodox Church. There was incensce for sale in the Souvenir shop in the port of Daphni on Athos and it was the exact same supplier, Maybe the blend of resin differs, but its not filled with Chemicals.

philologos

Such a question is a question of practice rather than a question of theology.

Personally, I couldn't see incense working well in my church as it wouldn't suit the type of church it is.

I can see incense working well in high Anglo-Catholic churches, Orthodox churches and Roman Catholic churches.

What are the most important things for me when I seek a church? -
Does the church teach the Bible faithfully?
Does this church teach sound doctrine?
Does this church value the Bible, and Jesus Christ in the way that they should?
Does this church accept that Jesus Christ died to save sinners?
Does this church allow questioning?
Does this church really believe that Jesus Christ can transform lives?
Does this church attempt to provide genuine answers to genuine questions or are they more interested in giving truth that is easy to swallow?
Will I find good fellowship in this church?
Will this church help me to better serve Jesus when I am in the workplace?
Is there room in this church to allow people like me to get more involved?
Are the ministers in the church approachable for when I have questions about what they preach?

These questions are more important to me than whether or not churches happen to have incense or not.

wolfsbane

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

The Church of Ireland has canons forbidding the use of incense in its churches, though this is ignored by a few parishes, it is something that many people do seem still to have a strong aversion too. Wolfsbane has mentioned the use of incense among this objections to Roman Catholicism which surprised me, after all it is mentioned in the book of Revelations and is a very ancient costum going back to the Old Testament Church; now I am not saying that people SHOULD use incense in worship, but are there any good reasons why they SHOULD NOT? There is nothing in the Bible forbidding it.

Santing has put it well. Incense was part of the OT typology, and that has been replaced by the fulfilment. God's people now worship in spirit and truth, without the props of childhood religion.

Not that incense is particularly wrong - anything that detracts from mature worship is to be kept out. One big fault with many Evangelical churches is the place they give to music: rather than it serving to keep crows like me in tune and time, it is used as an offering in itself. God is not worshipped by music - it is there to help the worship of our singing to God.

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John 4:21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Hebrews 13:15 Therefore by Him let us continually offer the sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of our lips, giving thanks to His name.

wolfsbane

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

Gold Frankincense and Myrrh were all given as gifts to our Lord at his birth.

What has that to do with NT worship? Mary offered a sacrifice for her purification, A pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons. All that is gone for the NT people of God. Christ's atoning death fulfilled it all.

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Galatians 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

homer911

wolfsbane wrote: »

God is not worshipped by music - it is there to help the worship of our singing to God.

At the risk of dragging off topic:
http://bible.cc/psalms/149-3.htm
http://bible.cc/psalms/150-4.htm

PatricaMcKay2

homer911 wrote: »

At the risk of dragging off topic:
http://bible.cc/psalms/149-3.htm
http://bible.cc/psalms/150-4.htm

I believe that traditionalist Presbyterians are opposed to musical instruments in liturgical worship as of course most eastern Christians are ( the Indians and the Armenians excluded).

Onesimus

alex73 wrote: »

Nope. Incense used in the Catholic Church is often sourced from the same suppliers that supply the Orthodox Church. There was incensce for sale in the Souvenir shop in the port of Daphni on Athos and it was the exact same supplier, Maybe the blend of resin differs, but its not filled with Chemicals.

Well I have to see it with my own eyes because I was told there are people who make it in Ireland by the sacristan himself. He gave me some and it smelled woeful and made me feel sick. either it's chemically induced in order to give off the smell of real incense or its a different blend that is just horrid.

I would prefer the incense used in the EC over the Roman anyday.

btw did you ever get to receive communion in the Orthodox church on athos? ( bit off topic but thought I'd ask )

alex73

Onesimus wrote: »

btw did you ever get to receive communion in the Orthodox church on athos? ( bit off topic but thought I'd ask )

No, I didn't want to cause offence by even asking.

wolfsbane

homer911 wrote: »

At the risk of dragging off topic:
http://bible.cc/psalms/149-3.htm
http://bible.cc/psalms/150-4.htm

OT worship, as described in the Psalms, is not NT worship. NT worship sings psalms/hymns to God, with instruments to help if needed.

And as Patrica points out, many churches do not even permit instruments at all.

************************************************************************
Galatians 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Onesimus

alex73 wrote: »

No, I didn't want to cause offence by even asking.

Cant see how it would cause offence many are open to giving Catholics communion.

alex73

Onesimus wrote: »

Cant see how it would cause offence many are open to giving Catholics communion.

Really? Which monasteries? Going next year so much ask.

Onesimus

alex73 wrote: »

Really? Which monasteries? Going next year so much ask.

Dont know which monasteries but know another EC from Catholic answers who said he has never ever been refused except for one time and he has been there loads.

PatricaMcKay2

Onesimus wrote: »

Dont know which monasteries but know another EC from Catholic answers who said he has never ever been refused except for one time and he has been there loads.

He is telling porkies, you realize that they recieve Roman Catholics by Baptism on Mount Athos? They even refuse Communion to Non-Chalcedonians and you are telling me that they Commune Uniates? :rolleyes:

Onesimus

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

He is telling porkies, you realize that they recieve Roman Catholics by Baptism on Mount Athos? They even refuse Communion to Non-Chalcedonians and you are telling me that they Commune Uniates? :rolleyes:

I dont see what benefit he would get out of telling me porkies would you?

I'm sure he is not the only one. Nip over to the EC forum and ask them how many of them received in an Orthodox Church as EC's or Romans.

And we are not Uniates we are Catholics.

The Quadratic Equation

wolfsbane wrote: »

What has that to do with NT worship? Mary offered a sacrifice for her purification, A pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons. All that is gone for the NT people of God. Christ's atoning death fulfilled it all.

???? - Paisley style strawman alert. (before he gave up his old sectarian politics and became a chuckle brother)

What has sacrifice got to do with gold, frankincense and myrrh ?

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them"

“Why was this fragrant oil not sold for three hundred denari and given to the poor?”

In the time of Christ and for 2000 years frankincense has been used in his honour.
If we sometimes choose to use frankincense as a background to prayer, and honour Christ as he has been before, what business is it of yours ?

PatricaMcKay2

Onesimus wrote: »

I dont see what benefit he would get out of telling me porkies would you?

I'm sure he is not the only one. Nip over to the EC forum and ask them how many of them received in an Orthodox Church as EC's or Romans.

And we are not Uniates we are Catholics.

We are talking about the Holy Mountain a chara and not some liberal parish in western Europe or the states. The Holy Mountain has been out of Communion with the Phanar for long periods of time during this century over ecumenism. And yes you are Uniates. You should look into the history of the Unia which amply demonstrates why the Pope cannot be trusted and low levels he will stoop to in his quest for power

Is Father Kelleher still involved in Republican Sinn Fein? Is he still writing uber nationalist Ukrainian trash? Very strange thing for an ex-pro-Soviet Moscow Patriarchate priest to end up doing!

Onesimus

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

We are talking about the Holy Mountain a chara and not some liberal parish in western Europe or the states. The Holy Mountain has been out of Communion with the Phanar for long periods of time during this century over ecumenism. And yes you are Uniates. You should look into the history of the Unia which amply demonstrates why the Pope cannot be trusted and low levels he will stoop to in his quest for power

Is Father Kelleher still involved in Republican Sinn Fein? Is he still writing uber nationalist Ukrainian trash? Very strange thing for an ex-pro-Soviet Moscow Patriarchate priest to end up doing!

This rumourful, nasty, virulent and foul attempt to falsely discredit the name of Archimandrite Fr.Serge does not even deserve a response from me, Nor does any of your other posts by me in the future.

PatricaMcKay2

Onesimus wrote: »

This rumourful, nasty, virulent and foul attempt to falsely discredit the name of Archimandrite Fr.Serge does not even deserve a response from me, Nor does any of your other posts by me in the future.

Sorry but its not rumours. And his spreading of vile and fantastic anti-Russian hatred in the Ukraine says all we need to know about the Unia, no doubt of course its out of obediance to his papal masters. And its a bit mad to call someone who hasnt spent a day in a monastery an archimandrite.

gimmebroadband

Looks like the latest Michael Voris Videocast is spot on, when he speaks about the current Catholic Bashing that's doing the rounds! :rolleyes:

Onesimus

gimmebroadband wrote: »

Looks like the latest Michael Voris Videocast is spot on, when he speaks about the current Catholic Bashing that's doing the rounds! :rolleyes:

Not to mention RTE's recent bashing and slanderous remarks about a priest and destroying his good reputation with rumours and nothing to back it up.

The Quadratic Equation

Onesimus wrote: »

Not to mention RTE's recent bashing and slanderous remarks about a priest and destroying his good reputation with rumours and nothing to back it up.

The more it happens, and the more anti-Catholic they all get in desperation, the more I know we're on the right path.

philologos

What do these claims of anti-Catholicism have to do with whether or not it is OK for churches not to use incense, or whether or not it is OK for a church to use incense?

The Quadratic Equation

philologos wrote: »

What do these claims of anti-Catholicism have to do with whether or not it is OK for churches not to use incense, or whether or not it is OK for a church to use incense?

A better question is why is it not ok for the Catholic Church to use frankencense ?

philologos

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

A better question is why is it not ok for the Catholic Church to use frankencense ?

Personally, it is a very minor issue for me. Personally, I wouldn't desire it where I go to church, but it may work in other churches where it is more appropriate.

Claiming that people criticising / disagreeing the way things are done in a particular church is anti-Catholicism is a little bit heavy handed considering some of the other posts I've seen on this forum about Reformed / Protestant / Evangelical churches.

Is it possible to go through a thread without turning it into a denominational tit-for-tat? Can't we just have a frank and honest discussion about it?

getz

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

A better question is why is it not ok for the Catholic Church to use frankencense ?

incence has NO religious significance in church,other than to cover the smells of the devout in church[remember up and until the late victorian times people did not often wash themselves ],that is why frankincence was so expensive in early christian times,

Benny_Cake

I quite like the smell of it although after a minute or so it would always send me into a sneezing fit (probably explains the briefness of my time as an altar boy,that and the early starts).Don't think it would fit in with worship in a more modern church building though.

georgieporgy

This link seems to answer all the questions;

(Latin thus, Gr. thumiama), an aromatic substance which is obtained from certain resinous trees and largely employed for purposes of religious worship. The word is also used to signify the smoke or perfume arising from incense when burned.
Nature

In ancient times incense was furnished by two trees, viz. the Boswellia sacra of Arabia Felix, and the Boswellia papyrifera of India, both of which belong to the Terebinthian family. Mention is made of it in Numbers 7:14; Deuteronomy 33:10, etc. It was procured from the bark much as gum is obtained at present. To enhance the fragrance and produce a thicker smoke various foreign elements were added (cf. Josephus, "Bell. Jud.", V, 5). These ingredients generally numbered four, but sometimes as many as thirteen, and the task of blending them in due proportion was assigned under the Old-Law ordinances to particular families (Canticles 3:6).


You can read the rest of the article here
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07716a.htm

wolfsbane

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

???? - Paisley style strawman alert. (before he gave up his old sectarian politics and became a chuckle brother)

What has sacrifice got to do with gold, frankincense and myrrh ?

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them"

“Why was this fragrant oil not sold for three hundred denari and given to the poor?”

In the time of Christ and for 2000 years frankincense has been used in his honour.
If we sometimes choose to use frankincense as a background to prayer, and honour Christ as he has been before, what business is it of yours ?

Christ did fulfil them. And in doing so, abolished them. Not abolished without first being fulfilled.

No blood, no altar now, The sacrifice is o'er!
No flame, no smoke ascends on high,
The lamb is slain no more,
But richer blood has flowed from nobler veins,
To purge the soul from guilt, and cleanse the reddest stains.

We thank Thee for the blood, The blood of Christ, Thy Son:
The blood by which our peace is made,
Our victory is won:
Great victory o'er hell, and sin, and woe,
That needs no second fight, and leaves no second foe.

We thank Thee for the grace, Descending from above,
That overflows our widest guilt,
The'eternal Father's love.
Love of the Father's everlasting Son,
Love of the Holy Ghost, Jehovah, Three in One.

We thank Thee for the hope, So glad, and sure, and clear;
It holds the drooping spirit up
Till the long dawn appear;
Fair hope! with what a sunshine does it cheer
Our roughest path on earth, our dreariest desert here.

We thank Thee for the crown Of glory and of life;
'Tis no poor with'ring wreath of earth,
Man's prize in mortal strife;
'Tis incorruptible as is the throne,
The kingdom of our God and His incarnate Son.
Horatius Bonar, 1808-1889

Maybe you think circumcision, and all the 'touch not, taste not' elements of the Law still apply?

Mary poured the fragrant oil over Christ as an act of worship. Since you believe the bread is literally His body, do you pour fragrant oil over it?

No, all that preceded the Resurrection was under the Law of Moses. The Church is under the New Covenant and her practise must be that of apostolic teaching.

The prayers of the saints are the Church's incense.

What you do in worship is none of my business. But I'm free to comment on the practise, whether it is Biblical or not.

**********************************************************************
Revelation 5:8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

The Quadratic Equation

wolfsbane wrote: »

But I'm free to comment on the practise, whether it is Biblical or not.

Grand as long as you know, your own personal interpretation, of your heavily edited bible is wrong

The Quadratic Equation

getz wrote: »

incence has NO religious significance in church,other than to cover the smells of the devout in church[remember up and until the late victorian times people did not often wash themselves ],that is why frankincence was so expensive in early christian times,

Absolute tabloid style rubbish.

Insense was used by the Magi to honour the child Jesus for one.

The smoke of burning incense is interpreted by the Roman Catholic Church and Eastern Christian churches as a symbol of the prayer of the faithful rising to heaven.

This symbolism is seen in Psalm 141 (140), verse 2: "Let my prayer be directed as incense in thy sight: the lifting up of my hands, as evening sacrifice." It is often used after the manner of a purification ritual.

Incense symbolises the prayers of the saints in heaven - the "golden bowl full of incense" are "the prayers of the saints" upwards towards the altar of God. Revelation 5:8, Revelation 8:3.

Que one of the 33,000 heritical versions . . . .

wolfsbane

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

Grand as long as you know, your own personal interpretation, of your heavily edited bible is wrong

PatricaMcKay2

wolfsbane wrote: »

The thread was started too draw out the reasons behind your objection, and still I dont agree with them, I dont think you can draw a sameness between types like the Rod and the Ark of the Covenent and incense...Infact I think there are stronger arguments for exclusive pslamody than there are for forbidding incense in worship...But I dont believe that people have to use incense.

lmaopml

It's a non arguement really. Nobody said anybody 'has' to use incense and nobody said they should not either as rule..

The Catholic church uses incense and it has no other power other than it is symbolic and is used to sanctify our prayers at mass that are said everyday, everywhere, but reach our Lord out of time and are presented to him at judgement and are offered up then for one and all no matter who...or where or when...

wolfsbane

lmaopml wrote: »

It's a non arguement really. Nobody said anybody 'has' to use incense and nobody said they should not either as rule..

The Catholic church uses incense and it has no other power other than it is symbolic and is used to sanctify our prayers at mass that are said everyday, everywhere, but reach our Lord out of time and are presented to him at judgement and are offered up then for one and all no matter who...or where or when...

symbolic and is used to sanctify our prayers :
The RCC uses special garments, sacred places, separate priesthood, sacrifice for sins, incense - all the trappings of OT worship. It is in effect Christianity apostatised, returned to the types and shadows of the Law, fallen from grace.

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Colossians 2:8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.

ISAW

wolfsbane wrote: »

symbolic and is used to sanctify our prayers :
The RCC uses special garments, sacred places, separate priesthood, sacrifice for sins, incense - all the trappings of OT worship. It is in effect Christianity apostatised, returned to the types and shadows of the Law, fallen from grace.

You must be incensed! Sorry couldn't help it. don't you find it odd that Martin Luther and all the other Christians for sixteen centuries practiced all these things and didn't have any problems with them and he had the problem (and rightly so) with simony and corruption and all the other things came "nailed on" later. Traditions and rituals are there whether you think they are all apostates. But in this thread we are discussing incense and not another cartload of things nailed on at the end.

lmaopml

ISAW wrote: »

You must be incensed! Sorry couldn't help it. don't you find it odd that Martin Luther and all the other Christians for sixteen centuries practiced all these things and didn't have any problems with them and he had the problem (and rightly so) with simony and corruption and all the other things came "nailed on" later. Traditions and rituals are there whether you think they are all apostates. But in this thread we are discussing incense and not another cartload of things nailed on at the end.

You must be incensed! *titters*

Yeah that made me smile...

wolfsbane

ISAW wrote: »

You must be incensed! Sorry couldn't help it. don't you find it odd that Martin Luther and all the other Christians for sixteen centuries practiced all these things and didn't have any problems with them and he had the problem (and rightly so) with simony and corruption and all the other things came "nailed on" later. Traditions and rituals are there whether you think they are all apostates. But in this thread we are discussing incense and not another cartload of things nailed on at the end.

My point was that lmaopml's symbolic and is used to sanctify defence of incense is indeed what characterises RCC worship in general. A return to the weak and beggarly elements of OT worship. A departure from Christ and His New Covenant.

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Galatians 4:9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage?