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Cliona99

Hello, I've been reading horror stories on here about supermarket dog food. I would love to stop feeding Pedigree Chum but I'm not sure I can afford to switch over.

Some people have said that with high quality foods the dog needs less. I know this is a subjective question, but I thought I'd ask it anyway! Roughly how long would a 15kg bag of White's last a medium sized dog? At the moment she eats a can of Pedigree Chum and about a cup of dry food a day. (She also eats the cat's food if I'm not looking...)

Basically, if 15kg will last two months it'll work out cheaper than what I'm feeding her now. But if it'll be gone in a month, I can't afford it...

Typing this now, I'm thinking I should probably just buy the 15kg and see how it goes But if anyone has any suggestions I'd appreciate it.

Thanks!

mymo

It depends on the food and the size of the dog.

15kg of whites @€;39 lasted me just over 3 months (need to start marking dates to see myself)for a medium and a small dog.

2x8kg Royal canin lasted me 4 months.
With both foods I fed less than recommended amount, little one is on a diet and bigger fella just doesn't eat much.

Poops nice and solid, not that smelly, and no farts!
I would try it and see, just remember to change over gradually.

Do be careful at first, you don't need to feed as much as the cheaper food, so it can be easy to over feed, measure or weigh the food.

Shanao

What breed is your dog and do you know what weight she is? Its no help really just saying she's medium-sized as it's impossible to calculate how much she will need without knowing her weight.

belongtojazz

I feed 3 of mine the same food ( my 4th dog didn't react well) and for them a 15kg bag of food lasts about 6 weeks. My 3 are a large springer and 2 JRTs.
In my opinion it works out much much cheaper, my lot also get any leftover veg and some cod liver and they are all in brilliant condition

tk123

If you know the dogs weight you can work out an approx daily amount from the guidelines. If you don't know her weight the vets will weigh her for free or some petshops have scales too - our local MaxiZoo and PetMania have them. Obviously every dog is different, you may feed treats, or depending on excercise levels you'd adjust the daily amount to the dogs needs. A 7.5kg bag of Luath (which has the same feeding guidelines as Burns) would last us a 5 or 6 weeks - this was feeding 200-250g a day and him having treats - 2 bonios, a dental chew and a handful of small biscuits every day. Most people find with Burns the dogs will lose a bit of weight at first so you'd go with how the dog looks and adjust the guideline amount to suit her - if you can feel but not see the ribs her weight is ok.

mark1310

ita all about your dogs weight . ok how it works , 1 weigh your dog,2 look at the bag to find out the recommended daily amount for your dog , 3, divide the daily feed amount into 15000 grms if its a 15kg bag u bought ....answer is the amount of days the food will last , then get the price of your bag of food and divide the amount of days ito your price of the bag .. that will then tell you how much it costs you per day to feed your dog.. in maxi zoo they do a brand called real nature its 69.99 a bag BUTTTTTT if you had a yorkie or a small dog based on about 5kg weight you would feed 50 g per day a 15 kg bag would last
15000 g into 50g per day =300 days
300 days into the cost of bag 69.99 =23 cent a day to feed your dog prob one of the best food on the market/
go into your local maxi zoo
have your dog weighed for free
then get free food samples of real nature
and if you buy a bag and your dog wont eat it
then bring it back for something else

neevie21

The really 'high end' dog foods are much hyped up and marketed as being the superior dog foods. Im a vet student, and our pet nutrition lecturer maintained that the more expensive brands; ie royal canine, hills etc are better, it may only really be worth spending the extra money if your dog is a large breed (especially in the first year of life), are really old and have joint problems/heart problems/ kidney problems etc or have some other medical condition or allergies/sensitive stomachs etc.
Do not pay out for the more expensive feeds if you cannot afford them. They are twice the price, they are not twice as good.
Obviously if you are showing your dog in competition etc it might be worth paying extra for food.

mark1310

by buyin more expensive foods the obviously the quailty is a hole lod better and the food lasts a lot longer by feeding a lot less. it also come down to how the foods Are prepared such as cooked or cold pressed , added presertivites and colourings , and also the grade of ingredients used, for instance i wont mention any names of brands but one sytates on the bag that they use 4% carrot in the carrot kibble so its not even a lousey piece of carrot. buy buying cheaper foods they carry a lot of sugers which in turn lead to hyperness in dogs .also by buying a decent bag of food there is up to 75% more nutrional value then a cheap bag;;;; a lot of joint problems , skin issues , bad breath , bad teeth and bad stomachs are caused by bad diets i see it all the time with dogs on cheap diets

Wibbs

neevie21 wrote: »

The really 'high end' dog foods are much hyped up and marketed as being the superior dog foods. Im a vet student, and our pet nutrition lecturer maintained that the more expensive brands; ie royal canine, hills etc are better, it may only really be worth spending the extra money if your dog is a large breed (especially in the first year of life), are really old and have joint problems/heart problems/ kidney problems etc or have some other medical condition or allergies/sensitive stomachs etc.
Do not pay out for the more expensive feeds if you cannot afford them. They are twice the price, they are not twice as good.
Obviously if you are showing your dog in competition etc it might be worth paying extra for food.

So a nutrition lecturer reckons that an animal evolved to be an almost exclusive carnivore is capable of digesting the large amount of (poor quality) grains and gluten in the average dry food(enough omnivorous humans can't digest gluten)? Where the "meat" products are of a very low quality, with ingredients like bone meal and other renderings of unspecified origin are common, where additives like colouring and flavouring are added. Why does a dog need artificial colouring in it's food? That's for the human purchaser. Then in many of the cheaper foods you have additives like BHA and BHT, which are banned in human food because of their links to cancer. Oh sure unlike cats, they'll survive on such a grain heavy, crap protein diet, but are more likely to add to the coffers of vets while doing so. When you see ads for products to remove doggie plaque and tartar would you not be asking why dental decay is suddenly an issue for dogs, when dingos and wolves show no such dental decay?

If we were talking about human nutrition here, there is no way in hell a medical nutritionist would make such a frankly daft claim as your lecturer. Not unless said lecturer was stating that most dry dog food is crap. It would be the equivalent of them suggesting that people to keep chowing down on the lowest quality takeaway food you can find. Is he or she trying to tell the students that the choice between a high quality diet consisting of fresh meat and some fresh veg is not much better than the cheapest scrapings thrown in a bag in your local supermarket?

Plus by his or her own admission they suggest it might be a good bet to go for the better food if ones dog is a large breed or compromised in health in some way. So in effect the better foods are.. well better? So why not recommend same for all dogs?

BTW If they think Royal Canine et al are high end foods, may I respectfully suggest they do more research as part of their remit. While better than the cheap as chips food they still have low quality grains as filler and low quality meat sources. Check the web for more on dry dog foods and the qualities of most out there.

My last dog, a (very)large dog, I fed chicken thighs, lamb bones, offal and veggies and appropriate scraps from the table and he made it to nearly 17, when he died of old age. Beyond vaccinations he never saw the inside of a vets surgery. Cost per week? Can be less than dry or canned food*. My first dog another large breed made it to 16 and died of old age and again never saw a vet other than for checkups. Again with a similar diet. The one in the middle I went the petfood route and that poor bugger died, rather was PTS at 9 after near 3 years of decline and ill health. A limited sample I grant you, but it was enough to convince me. Your mileage may vary.

I'm no raw food nutter, but there is a middle ground and it's often cheaper and IMHO better than going the "Pedigree" etc way.


*EG weeks supply of chicken thighs? 2.50 euro. Enough veggies in frozen form for the week? another 2 quid. Lamb, offal and bones? With a friendly local butcher who you get your meat from(usually much better quality than the supermarkets), very cheap and in the case of bones free. doing this you could get it under a tenner a week, especially for smaller dogs

Cliona99

Wow, busy forum!

Thanks for all the replies and advice.

My dog is about 12 years old, mixed breed, (like a staffordshire bull terrier, but taller), and weighs 24kg. I've had her on a diet for the past year and can finally feel her ribs!

I think I'm going to order the smallest bag of Light/Senior and see how it goes.

Thanks for all your help!

tk123

Cliona99 wrote: »

Wow, busy forum!

Thanks for all the replies and advice.



My dog is about 12 years old, mixed breed, (like a staffordshire bull terrier, but taller), and weighs 24kg. I've had her on a diet for the past year and can finally feel her ribs!

I think I'm going to order the smallest bag of Light/Senior and see how it goes.

Thanks for all your help!

Most places will send you free samples if you mail them

cora2

My hubbys old vet when he was alive used to say never feed a dog pedigree. Its like mcdonalds to a kid. I know you were saying about price but if you work out what your paying for pedigree

bluesmurf

Hi Neevie....... Any advice on the following... Thanks.....:)
We have recently bought a Pure Breed Red Setter Female, 12 Months old, Very active, feeds well, but is very underweight, has no ill health but
She is 6Kg under weight, Can anyone recommend ways to Build her Weight up.
We were at the Vets today and he recommended “Pro Pac Dog, High Performance, Superpremium Dog Food” and Feeding her Twice a Day.
I have done some research on this brand of dog food and the feedback from Dog Owners was not good and Im worried about feeding her this Brand.
Has anyone had any experience with this Brand of Dog Food,
I would be delighted with any feedback and advice. . . .

cora2

Hey bluesmurf, give whites a phone. My gsd was underweight n been on their lamb for 2 weeks & I have started to see a bit of a diff. The woman on the phone was very helpful & gave me some good tips to make sure i get weight on her

bluesmurf

cora2 wrote: »

Hey bluesmurf, give whites a phone. My gsd was underweight n been on their lamb for 2 weeks & I have started to see a bit of a diff. The woman on the phone was very helpful & gave me some good tips to make sure i get weight on her

Hey Cora2

Thanks a million for that.. are they just called Whites Dog Food...

Ill give them a call tomorrow..

Thanks again

Regards
Smurff

cora2

Hey bluesmurf,

There website is www.whites-premium.ie thats where I got the phone number from

neevie21

bluesmurf wrote: »

Hi Neevie....... Any advice on the following... Thanks.....:)
We have recently bought a Pure Breed Red Setter Female, 12 Months old, Very active, feeds well, but is very underweight, has no ill health but
She is 6Kg under weight, Can anyone recommend ways to Build her Weight up.
We were at the Vets today and he recommended “Pro Pac Dog, High Performance, Superpremium Dog Food” and Feeding her Twice a Day.
I have done some research on this brand of dog food and the feedback from Dog Owners was not good and Im worried about feeding her this Brand.
Has anyone had any experience with this Brand of Dog Food,
I would be delighted with any feedback and advice. . . .

Ok if she's feeding well and still underweight - make sure she's wormed and all of her vaccinations are up to date, just to make 100 percent sure she's not carrying any underlying mild parasite burden. Propac is a good brand, and offering her food ONLY twice a day is a really good way of getting to eat more when she's offered food. If you train her into the mindset that she is only going to get the food at the time you're offering it - she should eat more. propac is also very palatable - most dogs like the taste of it. Avoid the tinned foods at any cost. Dogs like the taste but they're so full of salt and fat etc.
Neutering dogs definitely makes them gain weight as well. It might be worth thinking about if you're not going to breed from her, plus it stops them from getting horrible uterine infections like pyometria when they get older.
She might just be naturally very active and/or possess a very fast metabolism - if so getting her to put on weight is going to be a struggle, so the best thing to do in that instance is to be vigilant with feeding her twice a day and continue to feed her good quality dog food. Don't try and fill her up with human food. Dogs require a different balance of nutrients than we do and our food is not suitable for them. Table scraps should not comprise more than 5% of her diet.

mark1310

hi i would reccomend going to maxi zoo and asking them for a sample of real nature puppy food, id rcommend puppy food for you as puppy food has the higest amount of nutririon of all the foods. if you put your dog on puppy it should bulk up quicker then what it would adult food.

DogsFirst

15kg of whites @€;39 lasted me just over 3 months (need to start marking dates to see myself)for a medium and a small dog.

2x8kg Royal canin lasted me 4 months.

Does anyone ever wonder the effects of feeding their dog food from a bag that has been open in their cupboard for 3 months? What sort of stuff must they be putting in the food to preserve fats for that long without going rancid? Then theres dust mites and the oxidization of vitamins over time.

Check out this article that shows Vitamins B & E in dry dog food deplete by up to 50% in just 6 months (Hoffmann La Rodue, F. T. (1995). Paper presented at the science and technology Centre, Hills Pet Nutrition, Inc., Topeka, K.S., on vitamin stability in canned and extruded pet food). Your bag of food is at least that before you even buy it.

Re the price of food, you can buy one kg of minced beef or fresh chicken wings now for less than €3 in Lidl or Aldi, at €60 for 15kg you are already paying an extra ordinary price for a food that is majority cheap cereal and plant protein.

My tip, cut back on that stuff and get fresh food into your dog. Like us, dogs need fresh food, fresh ingredients. And they're carnivores so get the meat in. Tin of sardines 40cents in Lidl!! Whole mackerel €2 in Supervalu. It's a no brainer. Back to the olden days.

Best of luck!

DogsFirst

bluesmurf wrote: »

Hi Neevie....... Any advice on the following... Thanks.....:)
We have recently bought a Pure Breed Red Setter Female, 12 Months old, Very active, feeds well, but is very underweight, has no ill health but
She is 6Kg under weight, Can anyone recommend ways to Build her Weight up.
We were at the Vets today and he recommended “Pro Pac Dog, High Performance, Superpremium Dog Food” and Feeding her Twice a Day.
I have done some research on this brand of dog food and the feedback from Dog Owners was not good and Im worried about feeding her this Brand.
Has anyone had any experience with this Brand of Dog Food,
I would be delighted with any feedback and advice. . . .

Hi Bluesmurf,

Check out this article on red setters and gluten intolerance http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1465503 or simply go to "google scholar" and type in red setters and gluten, or do a simple google search.

This is a really common problems with setters, white coated breeds (that tend to have skin issues) and problem breeds such as shepards, boxers poodles that tend to have gastro issues. 30% of humans are gluten (a plant protein) intolerant and we've been eating it for 2000 years. Dogs are carnivores, less adapted to breaking down plants then we are, they've only been eating it 40 years AND 50% of their diet now contains it in the form of cheap cereal.

Its common for the breeds mentioned to have a problem with gluten. This dietary sensitivity not only plays havoc with their digestion, blocking absorption of vital nutrients and nutrition as a whole, but also ruins immune systems if continually fed resulting in orthopaedic disease (shepards), cancer (dogs suffer more cancer than humans), skin issues (poodles and white coated breeds) not to mention behavioural issues.

My advice, go with the rapidly growing trend of gluten free dog food. If you wanted to do that bit more, feed them fresh food. Raw chicken wings, bees ribs, lamb necks, all less than €3/kg! Sardines and any other meat you can get your hands on with maybe 20% cooked veg thrown in. Feed him like the carnivore he is and his whole being will respond accordingly. Promise! I have a lot of experience in these things.

DogsFirst

Well put. With you all the way on that one.

andreac

DogsFirst wrote: »

Well put. With you all the way on that one.

Huh?? Are you responding to your own posts??

DogsFirst

andreac wrote: »

Huh?? Are you responding to your own posts??

Ha! How embarassing. New to this forum. Not yet sure how to respond to other posts!! Really sorry.

Cracked off three in a row to different comments.....

Learning....always learning..........

Wibbs

DogsFirst wrote: »

30% of humans are gluten (a plant protein) intolerant and we've been eating it for 2000 years.

We've been eating it for nigh on 10,000 years and have adapted on the genetic level to do so(or not as the case may be). Like you said dogs most certainly have not been exposed to it for nearly as long and again as you say not at the levels they're eating it now in the form of dry food, even the "quality" foods. They're not omnivores like us, or to the degree we are. One major thing about humans and what made us so successful is our ability to survive or thrive on a very wide range of foods.

Then throw in the really low quality ingredients, ingredients not cleared for human consumption(and if you've ever eaten a takeaway sausage...) and other additives and I'm shocked more vets and breeders are not crying foul. In the human world they most certainly would be. I mean why the hell have we ads on the telly for products to stop dental caries in dogs? Carnivores should be a lot less prone to it.

My advice, go with the rapidly growing trend of gluten free dog food. If you wanted to do that bit more, feed them fresh food. Raw chicken wings, bees ribs, lamb necks, all less than €3/kg! Sardines and any other meat you can get your hands on with maybe 20% cooked veg thrown in. Feed him like the carnivore he is and his whole being will respond accordingly. Promise! I have a lot of experience in these things.

My own experience such as it is would echo this in a big way. And is often way cheaper. Wash your hands before and after though and no cooked bones.

Squall19

Wibbs wrote: »

An animal evolved to be an almost exclusive carnivore.

I'm no raw food nutter, but there is a middle ground and it's often cheaper and IMHO better than going the "Pedigree" etc way.

EG weeks supply of chicken thighs? 2.50 euro. Enough veggies in frozen form for the week? another 2 quid. Lamb, offal and bones? With a friendly local butcher who you get your meat from(usually much better quality than the supermarkets), very cheap and in the case of bones free. doing this you could get it under a tenner a week, especially for smaller dogs

Hi Wibbs

If you dont mind me asking?

What kinda of dog do you have?

What weight is he, age, physical activity etc?

I have been feeding my fella like that since he was a pup, he is a 2 year old 40kg Husky/Mal mix, he eats beta purina nuts and raw meat ( well not raw I boil the meat).

This diet costs me a good bit ( about 20e a week ), he does love it.He loves the broth from the chicken on his nuts lol.

I have been giving him 2-3 cups of nuts with a 1kg pack of chicken thigths, legs etc ( boiled and bones removed, I peel off all the meat off the bone for him:D ) with all the bones removed there is maybe 700g of meat.

I feed him that daily and if there is good deal, like reduced price on lamb, beef in the supermarkets I give him that instead of chicken, but its mostly chicken .

I take him out everyday and work him on the bicycle a few times a week ( he pulls me a few km's everyday ), so he's not fat all.

Vet tells me to just stick him on nuts, as the protein is making him constipated, he doesn't go much, once a day mostly.

If I add in veg, eggs, rice etc he wont touch the food, only reason he eats the nuts is for the meat.

portgirl123

sorry just reading this now as far as im aware from last time i was in my local pet shop looking at prices a 15kg bag of pedigree was €40 something a 15kg bag of whites is €39.

ppink

Squall19 wrote: »

I have been giving him 2-3 cups of nuts with a 1kg pack of chicken thigths, legs etc ( boiled and bones removed, I peel off all the meat off the bone for him:D ) with all the bones removed there is maybe 700g of meat.

.

I used to this for ages but then I just fired the whole lot through my mincer...bones and all. It is a lot handier and the bones are minced to nothing so no chance of hurting the dogs.
my mincer is only able for chicken bones though.

andreac

Squall19 wrote: »

Hi Wibbs

If you dont mind me asking?

What kinda of dog do you have?

What weight is he, age, physical activity etc?

I have been feeding my fella like that since he was a pup, he is a 2 year old 40kg Husky/Mal mix, he eats beta purina nuts and raw meat ( well not raw I boil the meat).

This diet costs me a good bit ( about 20e a week ), he does love it.He loves the broth from the chicken on his nuts lol.

I have been giving him 2-3 cups of nuts with a 1kg pack of chicken thigths, legs etc ( boiled and bones removed, I peel off all the meat off the bone for him:D ) with all the bones removed there is maybe 700g of meat.

I feed him that daily and if there is good deal, like reduced price on lamb, beef in the supermarkets I give him that instead of chicken, but its mostly chicken .

I take him out everyday and work him on the bicycle a few times a week ( he pulls me a few km's everyday ), so he's not fat all.

Vet tells me to just stick him on nuts, as the protein is making him constipated, he doesn't go much, once a day mostly.

If I add in veg, eggs, rice etc he wont touch the food, only reason he eats the nuts is for the meat.

You should feed your meat raw, esp the chicken as its great for them, the bones are really good too. Raw diet is brilliant and if i could afford it for my 2 (rotties) its what i would be feeding them.

If you are feeding the dry food there really isnt a need to feed all that meat as well, its really one or the other, or just a little bit of meat here and there but i wouldnt be feeding all that meat and nuts.

Wibbs

Squall19 wrote: »

Hi Wibbs

If you dont mind me asking?

What kinda of dog do you have?

What weight is he, age, physical activity etc?

Well my current fella is a pup so... My last guy was a shepherd/husky mix topped out at near 50kg. Very active, damn near hyper As he got older he ate less as he got less active. He passed away at two months off 17 years of age and other than vaccinations never saw the inside of a vets in those years.

This diet costs me a good bit ( about 20e a week ), he does love it.He loves the broth from the chicken on his nuts lol.

steady

I have been giving him 2-3 cups of nuts with a 1kg pack of chicken thigths, legs etc ( boiled and bones removed, I peel off all the meat off the bone for him:D ) with all the bones removed there is maybe 700g of meat.

I feed him that daily and if there is good deal, like reduced price on lamb, beef in the supermarkets I give him that instead of chicken, but its mostly chicken .

I take him out everyday and work him on the bicycle a few times a week ( he pulls me a few km's everyday ), so he's not fat all.

Vet tells me to just stick him on nuts, as the protein is making him constipated, he doesn't go much, once a day mostly.

If I add in veg, eggs, rice etc he wont touch the food, only reason he eats the nuts is for the meat.

My pup now and my last guy was mad for raw veggies. Though as pups less so. Not the carb heavy ones, whole carrots and the like. I suppose like people dogs differ. On the meat side I always fed raw(other than bits of fat from steaks I munched. Then again I like steak blue ), bones and all. IMHO that's the point. Mine love the bones. Crunch away happily and good for their teeth and jaw development. Chicken bones don't last long. Matter of minutes. But THEY MUST BE RAW. I can't emphasise this enough. Cooked chicken and other thin walled bones will splinter and cause problems. But growing up years ago.. people regularly gave their dogs bones from the butchers. My childhood dog(elkhound) used to be given whole and raw sheeps heads and pretty much eat the lot but the teeth.

Cost wise I'd be thinking more 15 quid, but your 20 isn't too off the mark. A friendly family butcher that you get the rest of your meat from rather than tescos is a major advantage. In any event IMHO you get better and better value meat for your own table and free bones and the like for your doggie.

On the constipation front, I found that on this kinda diet they poo a lot less anyway and the poo is not nearly as messy. So IMHO it's not constipation. And on that score I never had problems with impacted anal glands either. Well not quite true. My dog before my last(pedigree German Shepherd) I went the convenience route and he was fed on the dry food and tins and he didn't live nearly as long and had a lot of vet visits. Now it was likely a fair bit to do with the genetics as too many GSD's have problems from breeding, but I'd strongly believe the diet is a fair whack of it.

Wibbs

andreac wrote: »

You should feed your meat raw, esp the chicken as its great for them, the bones are really good too. Raw diet is brilliant and if i could afford it for my 2 (rotties) its what i would be feeding them.

If you are feeding the dry food there really isnt a need to feed all that meat as well, its really one or the other, or just a little bit of meat here and there but i wouldnt be feeding all that meat and nuts.

+1 on both counts.

chris139ryan

can you give bones from the butchers to pups or is there a recommended age before you start feeding them bones. my bull terrier is 12 weeks old so im just asking for him.

Wibbs

Well I was feeding raw meat and bones from about 16 weeks on. Small amounts at first. Dogs in the wild would be chewing on bones pretty early, though getting regurgitated food from parents at the same time.

DogsFirst

Wibbs wrote: »

andreac wrote: »

You should feed your meat raw, esp the chicken as its great for them, the bones are really good too. Raw diet is brilliant and if i could afford it for my 2 (rotties) its what i would be feeding them.

If you are feeding the dry food there really isnt a need to feed all that meat as well, its really one or the other, or just a little bit of meat here and there but i wouldnt be feeding all that meat and nuts.

+1 on both counts.

I disagree. If you're going to feed dry food you'll have to accept that the vitamin content if your dogs food will be low. Vitamins are included at "them minimum required for growth" by aafco standards (make rules for dog food). As you can't have too much protein, any fresh ingredients you include will only benefit your dog. Unless all you add is (fresh) bones. Dry food is already so high in calcium from the ash they include that this may cause issues down the line.

Like your kids bottom line is feed fresh as much as possible.

andreac

DogsFirst wrote: »

I disagree. If you're going to feed dry food you'll have to accept that the vitamin content if your dogs food will be low. Vitamins are included at "them minimum required for growth" by aafco standards (make rules for dog food). As you can't have too much protein, any fresh ingredients you include will only benefit your dog. Unless all you add is (fresh) bones. Dry food is already so high in calcium from the ash they include that this may cause issues down the line.

Like your kids bottom line is feed fresh as much as possible.

Sorry but i disagree, you can def have too much protein and this causes problems with some dogs, and their skin, mine being one of them. Woke up to find my rottie has a bloody hot spot on his face near his ear and its from that awful royal canin :mad: I had won a bag the other day and was waiting for my normal food to arrive and had to feed it and hes got a hot spot now from it!!
I do agree its good to feed a bit a bit of both, but feeding lots of each is unnecessary really. If you are going to feed lots of raw meat etc then there is really no need to feed the dry food as well.

DogsFirst

andreac wrote: »

Sorry but i disagree, you can def have too much protein and this causes problems with some dogs, and their skin, mine being one of them. Woke up to find my rottie has a bloody hot spot on his face near his ear and its from that awful royal canin :mad: I had won a bag the other day and was waiting for my normal food to arrive and had to feed it and hes got a hot spot now from it!!
I do agree its good to feed a bit a bit of both, but feeding lots of each is unnecessary really. If you are going to feed lots of raw meat etc then there is really no need to feed the dry food as well.

Real common one that one. A lot of people are under the impression that a dog, a carnivore, can have too much (animal) protein in their diet. That a very particular level of protein is required for their dog.

In short, I have one question, how much protein did you have yesterday? Or did you feed to your kids? We don't know but for some reason we are transfixed with these things in dogs. In fact it has taken a lot of marketing over the course of 30 years to get us in this tizzy.

The reason you can't have too much protein is because it is not stored by the body. It is harmlessly deaminated by the liver and excreted by the kidneys, even under megadoses. It is not stored like some vitamins, fat and carbohydrate. That is why all diets advise you to step up your protein intake and cut the others. It is actually difficult to find a documented example of "too much protein" causing anything but some strange diseases in body builders that go to some silly extremes.

Then you must consider the extra affinity a dog has for meat. Carniovres need protein and fat, and not carbohydrates (they can actually make their own, a process called glycogenesis, clever carnivores). They have proven that dogs that have been nephrectomised (had their kidneys artifically reduced to 25% of their normal processing function) do perfectly fine on high protein diets. Because it's what carnivores do. Only when end stage chronic kidey failure kicks in (90% reduction in kidney ability) that protein levels can become an issue.

It is not the quantity of protein, but the quality. Which protein are you talking about? Some cooked proteins causes skin reactions as it does in humans (this is how food intolerance was discovered in the 1920's, a guy found he was llergic to cooked fish and not raw). Gluten and casein proteins cause skin reactions (as in humans). A dog on the same food for 18mths will develop a sensitivity to a protein (see ref below). This is all possible. But a particular quantity absolutely does not. At least has never been documented in my experience, and it is my field.

Have a read of the following references in Google Scholar.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1476305
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18656844
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/121/11_Suppl/S107.full.pdf

Or check out my article I use to help breeders and vets at dogsfirst.ie. Apologies for the site I conduct seminars on canine nutrition for vets and it is simply used it to get the references up to the public. All the references you'll need on the point are there and linkable to save you wandering. Theres also a handy little booklet for you to have a look at. New site coming soon which is completely dedicated to dogs, nutrition and training, and free to access.

Have a read and please get back to me if there are any inconsistencies that we can discuss. Hope it helps!

cora2

Having read all the posts, I found them very interesting. I use Whites dog food & have had great results. I am friends with them on facebook & noticed this link they have on their page.

I thought some of you might be interested in in it.

http://www.whites-premium.ie/Complete-Dry-Dog-Food-Explained_AZXFH.aspx

Wibbs

DogsFirst wrote: »

Real common one that one. A lot of people are under the impression that a dog, a carnivore, can have too much (animal) protein in their diet. That a very particular level of protein is required for their dog.

TBH DF this is something that has always puzzled me too and you hear it trotted out everywhere. I got similar dire warnings about watch the protein levels when I recently told my vet I was feeding raw and I was thinking eh wut?. Like you say wild canids are almost exclusively protein and fat (and bone)consumers. So long as it runs, flaps or swims and they can catch it, it's all good(though will eat small amounts of veggie matter). They most certainly don't eat the large quantities of grains or carbs we're being advised is good for our dogs.

Cora2 wrote:

I am friends with them on facebook & noticed this link they have on their page.

I thought some of you might be interested in in it.

OK but to be fair they are trying to sell dry dog food, so a complete raw food diet might be the best thing ever is hardly likely to be praised. They mention that wet foods contain gluten as a binding agent, yet neglect to mention what goes into their dry food, only listing it as "other ingredients". They also mention that wet food may contain spines and brains yet make no real mention of their protein sources. Though do say "Not much regular meat can be included in dry complete dog food formulations because it is too high in moisture". So what source is it?

OK now lets look at their ingredients on one feed for adult working dogs;

http://www.whites-premium.ie/vitality-dog-food-analysis

Wheat
Why is the first ingredient wheat? Never realised dogs ploughed sowed and reaped. If it's a gluten allergy you're looking to build wheat's a doosie.

Oats
Oats. Not much better depending on source and I doubt they're using highest quality organic here.

Wheatfeed
Hmm otherwise known as millers offal. Basically what's left when you extract the rest of the wheatgerm. The floor scrapings basically.

Flaked maize
Cooked corn, yet another grain/carb(and dirt cheap). No wonder we need doggie toothbrushes.

Poultry fat
OK first animal product(well by product of human food industry) but its coming a fair bit down the list.

White rice
May as well add sugar.

Barley
And yet another grain.

Sugar beet pulp
A fibre. There's been some debate over this ingredient but it's probably fine.

Fish meal
This is what's left after the high end fish is used in the human food industry. Bones and skulls and the crap at the bottom of the nets ground up. Can contain high level of contaminants depending on source.

Brewers yeast
Good source of b vits IIRC, but also a possible source of allergy.

Yucca extract
Minerals
Vitamins
Omega 3
Grand.

Another thing that puzzles on that page. In the "Typical Analysis" why don't they list carbs as their ingredients list has a lot of them.

And remember Whites is a quality dry dog food. When you read the crap that makes up the supermarket or generic brands...

While I'm defo no Raw foodist nutjob, I do wonder what the f is going on

Cherry Blossom

1. Too much protein can cause kidney damage in some dogs.

2. If you want to dissect just one of Whites range of dog foods, I think this one is more suitable for the discussion as I doubt many people on here feed 'working dog' foods which are designed to be cheap as chips no matter what the brand is.

http://www.whites-premium.ie/chicken-dog-food-analysis

3. The link to dogsfirst doesn't work, which is just as well because spamming your own site on boards comes with an instant ban - it's part of the T&C you signed up to.

Wibbs

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

1. Too much protein can cause kidney damage in some dogs.

Some dogs. Dogsfirst to be fair was also talking about the quality of said protein and whether it's raw or cooked. Plus if you read one of his/her links http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1476305 you would see that experimentally even dogs with significantly reduced renal function were not affected by the protein levels in the diet(levels of phosphorus had an effect). The second study/link states this again Numerous studies have confirmed that protein does not adversely affect the kidneys. However, phosphorus- and protein-restricted diets are clinically beneficial in dogs with existing chronic kidney failure. Protein restriction for healthy older dogs is not only unnecessary, it can be detrimental. Protein requirements actually increase by about 50% in older dogs, while their energy requirements tend to decrease. When insufficient protein is provided, it can aggravate the age-associated loss of lean body mass and may contribute to earlier mortality. Older dogs should receive at least 25% of their calories from protein, typically provided by diets containing at least 7 g protein/100 Kcal ME.Emphasis mine on existing kidney pathology.

2. If you want to dissect just one of Whites range of dog foods, I think this one is more suitable for the discussion as I doubt many people on here feed 'working dog' foods which are designed to be cheap as chips no matter what the brand is.

http://www.whites-premium.ie/chicken-dog-food-analysis

True enough so OK.

Ingredients
Chicken (26%)
Certainly much better and higher up the line. But from what source and what's defined as "chicken" and is this wet or dry weight. If the former the percentage in the final dry food will be significantly smaller.

Rice (26%)
A quarter is nigh on pure carbohydrate.

Barley
Another grain/carb. What percentage?

Poultry fat
Again what's the source? The renderings of the poultry industry. And why mention poultry/chicken twice?

Sugar beet pulp

Fish meal

Again from what source

Brewers yeast
Yucca extract
Minerals
Vitamins
Omega 3

So yes it's much better, but still no breakdown of the overall percentage of carbs in the final dry weight of the food.

andreac wrote:

Sorry but i disagree, you can def have too much protein and this causes problems with some dogs, and their skin, mine being one of them. Woke up to find my rottie has a bloody hot spot on his face near his ear and its from that awful royal canin

Protein is blamed for this kinda thing, but the problem is how do we know it was the protein and not some other ingredient? We kinda don't. Now it may well be the protein AC or the wrong type, but given there's more by wieght of other ingredients why not look at one of them?

Cherry Blossom

Wibbs wrote: »

Ingredients
Chicken (26%)
Certainly much better and higher up the line. But from what source and what's defined as "chicken" and is this wet or dry weight. If the former the percentage in the final dry food will be significantly smaller.

Just in answer to this question (At least I think it's a question) their site states that any meat used is human grade.

DogsFirst

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

1. Too much protein can cause kidney damage in some dogs.

2. If you want to dissect just one of Whites range of dog foods, I think this one is more suitable for the discussion as I doubt many people on here feed 'working dog' foods which are designed to be cheap as chips no matter what the brand is.

http://www.whites-premium.ie/chicken-dog-food-analysis

3. The link to dogsfirst doesn't work, which is just as well because spamming your own site on boards comes with an instant ban - it's part of the T&C you signed up to.

Hi aj,

Apologies for link not working, should be ok now.

Also apologies for pushing my own website, really just meant to check out some of the articles but i don't think that's allowed, won't happen again.

Re excess protein, have a read of the links I recommend, I really feel it clears up a lot of the argument, and if you have some info for me re dogs needing a particular amount of protein I really would love to read it.


Cheers aj

Wibbs

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Just in answer to this question (At least I think it's a question) their site states that any meat used is human grade.

Yep AJ it was a question and that covers the source(and kudos for that), but not the dry versus wet weight/content.

Don't get me wrong AJ, like I said already White's is a very good quality dry food. Streets ahead of the average brands. That said reading their site they(IMHO) push the boat out on the hype. Lots of pics of fresh veg and the like.

Also statements like this; "Wheat and Flaked Maize: We include wheat and flaked maize in our Vitality Muesli to increase the complex carbohydrate levels in the food to help increase stamina, fight fatigue and boost energy and performance levels in the working and active dog."

since when is wheat and corn a complex carb? Rice another ingredient they mention is most certainly not. Ask any human nutritionist.

Oh and they berate other manufacturers thusly; Many pet foods, especially the economy brands, use corn, gluten, soy, and bone meal as a major source of protein, but these are inferior sources of protein for your pet.

Eh... maize is corn folks. Wheat is chock full of gluten. I have to know this stuff as I and half my family are coeliacs. Nice switcheroo there.

Then more foods containing gluten(though at lower amounts), oats.

Included in our Vitality Muesli as they are high in protein and can be easily and quickly digested, and are rich in silicon to help keep the working and active dogs bones strong. Oats are a complex carbohydrate that the working and active dogs body uses to maintain stamina, fight fatigue and boost energy and performance levels.

Now oats are a complex carb(if quality oats, not rendered) but why add such grains for " stamina,energy and performance"? For a carnivore? You want "stamina,energy and performance", a Carpathian wolf, an animal that is genetically 99.3% the same as the most pampered toy dog, has been tracked covering 60 miles in the course of a day and unless the lad had broken the fairy tale barrier and passed by the three bears house and helped himself to their porridge it wasn't due to grain based carbs. There's a reason why there exists the saying "as fit as a butchers dog".

Carnivores don't require carbs the way an(incredible*) omnivore like a human or at least don't get them from the same sources. AFAIR(and biologists can correct me here) canids like other carnivores break down proteins and fats for their carb/energy needs. Canids unlike us, don't even possess salivary amylase to start the breakdown process of (petfood)carbs in the digestive system. And as I noted before in their breakdowns they don't come out with the ratio/percentage of carbs versus proteins in the final product. For all the protestations that the best don't use "filler" IMHO any grains are fillers and cheap as chips ones at that.

Like I also said I'm not some Raw Macrobiotic, with the moon waxing as you cut the meat to honour the soul of the prey is the WAYYY! hippy. There is always a middle path, but IMHO we're being fed some BS about the diets of our furry buddies and they're being fed worse. Some of the dog foods out there(and don't forget our cat buds) have as listed ingredients "artificial colours". I mean WTF. No really. Dogs and cats can't read and their colour vision is limited compared to ours, so that crap is for us, not them, so why the hell are they adding same? And then slapping the words "healthy" or "recommended by vets" on such shíte?










*maybe why human nutrition is such a scientific minefield and so hard to pin down the "best" diet. We can survive, even thrive on a host of different diets. From a traditional Inuit eating an almost exclusive animal based diet(that would make a conservative coronary consultant have a fit, yet they don't get heart disease too often), to a vegan(that some would say isn't getting enough of some nutrients, yet they can be very healthy) and both doing pretty welll. It's the rest of us chowing down on chinner dinners that are the issue . Other than the rat, we're bloody cool in that respect and it's one big reason we're all over this planet.

DogsFirst

chris139ryan wrote: »

can you give bones from the butchers to pups or is there a recommended age before you start feeding them bones. my bull terrier is 12 weeks old so im just asking for him.

Hi Chris,
Dogs and wolves in the wild eat regurgitated bone mulch from 3wks old, I'd mince them at that stage, chicken necks at 6wks but keep an eye, like kids with lego. Smash with mallet if necessary. Lamb necks and ribs by 9 wks. Always raw. As meaty as possible. No weight bearing bones (break teeth). Any problems pm me, I can send or direct you to all the info you need in that respect.

Shanao

I think the problem in regards protein is not the excess of it but rather the actual protein source that is used. My dog for example cannot digest pork proteins and he breaks out in a rash if he eats any pork. Unfortunately, pork, beef and chicken proteins are some of the more difficult for some dogs to break down and they end up basically running rife in the system. Maybe this is down to the way dogs have been bred, making them more intollerant to certain things.

I'm sick of pet food companies pushing their foods with no corn etc when, like Wibbs said, Maize is bloody corn. And undigestible enough by our standards so definitely by dog standards. Really, if it wasn't for the convenience and the fact that I dont think I could support my lot on a raw diet, I wouldn't be feeding dried stuff. The stuff i use at least has no preservatives or chemicals, but when I see the things listed in stuff like Bakers and even Royal Canin I really cant help but wonder. And has anyone else noticed just how many new brands of food are popping up out of the blue all over the place?

cora2

My I have opened a can of worms!!!

At Dogsfirst & Wibbs, take a look at this website http://www.drsfostersmith.com/pic/article.cfm?aid=459#answer_3

At Wibbs, why was it you chose the cheapest food of Whites to berate? Is it because its the only one you can berate. As was mentioned in earlier post why not disect the chicken or the lamb?

Once you read the above information on the link above you will see as they mention chicken/lamb as their main ingredient it must be a good quality protein source.

I didnt put the original link up to be biased to any food but it was rather interesting how Dogsfirst & Wibbs like to drum their own opinions down everyone elses throat, like they know best.

I put the link up as an alternitive for someone who mentioned feeding raw food costs them up to 20 a week. I know I couldnt afford that, so I am happy that I found an affordable food, that helps my lab & shepherd who have various skin problems & now no longer have.


Why dont you get your questions answered by calling Whites? I know the woman is excellent for advice & have seen on other posts where other boards members think so to.

DogsFirst

cora2 wrote: »

My I have opened a can of worms!!!

At Dogsfirst & Wibbs, take a look at this website http://www.drsfostersmith.com/pic/article.cfm?aid=459#answer_3

At Wibbs, why was it you chose the cheapest food of Whites to berate? Is it because its the only one you can berate. As was mentioned in earlier post why not disect the chicken or the lamb?

Once you read the above information on the link above you will see as they mention chicken/lamb as their main ingredient it must be a good quality protein source.

I didnt put the original link up to be biased to any food but it was rather interesting how Dogsfirst & Wibbs like to drum their own opinions down everyone elses throat, like they know best.

I put the link up as an alternitive for someone who mentioned feeding raw food costs them up to 20 a week. I know I couldnt afford that, so I am happy that I found an affordable food, that helps my lab & shepherd who have various skin problems & now no longer have.


Why dont you get your questions answered by calling Whites? I know the woman is excellent for advice & have seen on other posts where other boards members think so to.

Sorry, I don't feel I've been pushing my opinions on you. I left references to support the very likely fact that its not a particular amount of protein, but the type.

I have no interest in getting into individual brands, my stance is fresh food is better than processed. Which processed food is irrelevant.

And if I wanted questions on fast food answered i wouldn't call mcdonalds. I've a doctorate in the area and i conduct seminars on canine nutrition recognised by the vet council of Ireland. But beyond all that, we have all got to get away from loaded sources, such as dry food manufacturers, as a basis for an argument.

You have to admit, fresh is best?!

Let's all have a vote. How do you do that here?!

cora2

@ Wibbs

With regards to fishmeal, it is nutrient rich & high in protein because it has been rendered to remove the moisture, so it is more nutritious than feeding RAW fish which you seem to have pleasure ramming down our throats.

As you mentioned about bones etc, but do you not rant on about bones & raw food?

Regarding poultry fat....which alot of dog food companies use is a much better alternative to animal fat. Why? Animal fat goes rancid if not preserved artificially, whereas poultry fat can be preserved naturally.

cora2

@ dogsfirst,

yes fresh is best but not everyone can afford it & also how do we know fresh is not diseased?

Look at the bean sprout incident recently, what about mad cow disease in the not so far past?

Wibbs

cora2 wrote: »

At Wibbs, why was it you chose the cheapest food of Whites to berate? Is it because its the only one you can berate. As was mentioned in earlier post why not disect the chicken or the lamb?

Maybe you should look at my previous post where I "berate" their high quality food too. And maybe, just maybe, rather than go on the offensive could you try actually refuting point by point my post? I'd like to see yur reasoning/explanations. Just one will do. Why doesn't Whites(seeing as they're your go to guys for dog food) show the percentage of carbs in their breakdown?

Once you read the above information on the link above you will see as they mention chicken/lamb as their main ingredient it must be a good quality protein source.

Right, because those that are in the biz in selling said food are a good source for unbiased info on said food.

I didnt put the original link up to be biased to any food but it was rather interesting how Dogsfirst & Wibbs like to drum their own opinions down everyone elses throat, like they know best.

You seem quite attached to a particular brand. Why not give your opinion on another brand that's not your facebook friend? Another opinion that doesn't recommend White's as you seem to have done with damn near most of your posts on this forum? Dogsfirst got reprimanded(rightly) for linking to his/her site, yet your history is suspiciously "Whites is right"?

I put the link up as an alternitive for someone who mentioned feeding raw food costs them up to 20 a week. I know I couldnt afford that, so I am happy that I found an affordable food, that helps my lab & shepherd who have various skin problems & now no longer have.

I feed my pup and fed my last adult dog on half that. Nice appeal to those feeling the pinch BTW.

DogsFirst wrote: »

I have no interest in getting into individual brands

Ditto. White's as a dry food is among the better quality. One of the best of a bad lot

my stance is fresh food is better than processed. Which processed food is irrelevant.

Ditto again.

cora2 wrote: »

@ Wibbs

With regards to fishmeal, it is nutrient rich & high in protein because it has been rendered to remove the moisture, so it is more nutritious than feeding RAW fish which you seem to have pleasure ramming down our throats.

You really need to read up on the contaminants in fish meal. DDT, PCB's and the like. Bad enough in human food. Plus you need to bone up on(no pun) what "rendered" actually means.

As you mentioned about bones etc, but do you not rant on about bones & raw food?

Sorry, lines crossed. Don't understand what you mean? In fairness that's most likely at my end.

Regarding poultry fat....which alot of dog food companies use is a much better alternative to animal fat. Why? Animal fat goes rancid if not preserved artificially, whereas poultry fat can be preserved naturally.

No. No really. Are you having a laugh? Seriously? I would love to see your "science" behind that claim... I'll save you the trouble and file it under "crystals are healing you know".

yes fresh is best but not everyone can afford it & also how do we know fresh is not diseased?

Ah the old "raw is diseased" BS. Right well, I presume you've prepared, cooked, eaten steak in your life? Maybe even eaten sushi? You know one can avoid any issue with that, by... washing ones hands after preparation. Plus do you realise the stomach acid strength of the average canid compared to humans? Never mind the far higher levels of lysosyme(sp:s) in a dogs mouth and gut.

Look at the bean sprout incident recently, what about mad cow disease in the not so far past?

You seem terribly eager to defend one brand with hyperbole, nay an advertistorial* tone. I ask you this; would you recommend another dry or wet food brand out there? Your posts thus far seem terribly biased towards Whites.




* should be a word.

cora2

Crystals are healing. Great for balancing your charkas. Shouldn't dis it til you try it.

Dont eat steak nor raw fish. Will eat chicken & turkey. Could be diseased but now a days thats the choice I make.

Regarding your poultry fat & fishmeal reference, I did what you do & look it up on the internet

Other foods Id recommend would be Land of Holistic Pets, Burns, Barking Heads (excellent food) & a new one on the market Green Dog.

Is that enough recommendations for you?

By the sounds of it if its not natural for you then nothing else will do. Bit of a Fred Flinstone going on with you. Do you get up in the morning & go for a morning kill of the widerbeast out in the forest. Does Wilma cook it over the open fire.

Got the Fred Flinstone from the internet like you do. Hopr I managed to get the information about his wifes name correct or did I not "bone up " on that (no pun intened)

star-pants

cora2 wrote: »

By the sounds of it if its not natural for you then nothing else will do. Bit of a Fred Flinstone going on with you. Do you get up in the morning & go for a morning kill of the widerbeast out in the forest. Does Wilma cook it over the open fire.

Not generally a phrase I use as a mod, but Chill Out, seriously.
A new poster, low post count, coming on and pushing one brand, suggesting people contact the very helpful woman there and giving more than one link would make anyone think you were shilling. Be lucky you're not banned for it. I'm giving you benefit of the doubt. But I suggest you keep yourself in check, sarcasm doesn't last long here.
Do not reply to this post, if you've any issue you can PM me/the other mods.