Getting younger players into national team quicker

Just looking at Australia where you have a very young team in general and with O'Connor (bit of a prodigy) approaching 40 caps and still being 21, what needs to happen in Ireland to get younger players given a chance earlier?

Obviously the province set-up doesn't really favour promoting players to the national side unless they are provincial regulars - what do people suggest that could be done to get young guys a chance?

Conservative national coaching (O'Sullivan being far worse than Kidney here) has played a part of course.

Wales also have the provincial set-up and yet Gatland has North (19) in there and a lot of the current squad got their starts very young.

Dr.Evil

Is it a coincidence that both North and O'Connor play primarily on the wing? That seems to be the position young players get a shot at. Look at Fitzgerald and Earls, they debuted at the age 19 and 20 iirc. At the moment it might just be due to the fact that we don't have young players good enough. I'm sure if we had George North or James O'Connor they'd have been given a chance.

gcgirl

If a player is good enough he will play regardless of age, Darce was unlucky he was doing his leaving cert when Gatland called him up in 98, he was 18, lukey Fitzgerald was 18/19 when he made his first appearance and Earls was not much older, I don't think there is really much to do other than see players step up I can see a few of the ulster lads pushing along with the usual suspects and age is not everything

JustinDee

glasso wrote: »

Just looking at Australia where you have a very young team in general and with O'Connor (bit of a prodigy) approaching 40 caps and still being 21, what needs to happen in Ireland to get younger players given a chance earlier?

Obviously the province set-up doesn't really favour promoting players to the national side unless they are provincial regulars - what do people suggest that could be done to get young guys a chance?

Conservative national coaching (O'Sullivan being far worse than Kidney here) has played a part of course

How does the provincial & central contract system in Ireland differ with the equivalent of Australia's? They don't really. The Aussie professional playerbase is already overstretched with a fifth unnecessary franchise playing in the Super Rugby comp. Only difference I can think of is that Australian teams were picked only from players who played in Aussie sides but even that is likely to go down the dunny with the addition of the Melbourne franchise being able to bring in overseas players.

Dan Vickerman is still in the Wallabies squad as is Nathan Sharpe. Mortlock fell out following one chronic injury after another. Waugh simply not good enough. Smith done with the team once contract up for rengotiations.
Giteau's issues with selectors went a lot further than form and ability.

glasso wrote: »

Wales also have the provincial set-up and yet Gatland has North (19) in there and a lot of the current squad got their starts very young.

North is an exceptional player with very little competition for his place on the wing. Hook has been finding it hard to get picked despite being one of their more talented backs.
When selectors feel a player should get in, they'll pick them. Not everyone will agree with the choices but thats just the way it is.

wixfjord

Dr.Evil wrote: »

Is it a coincidence that both North and O'Connor play primarily on the wing? That seems to be the position young players get a shot at. Look at Fitzgerald and Earls, they debuted at the age 19 and 20 iirc. At the moment it might just be due to the fact that we don't have young players good enough. I'm sure if we had George North or James O'Connor they'd have been given a chance.

We've Andrew Conway and Craig Gilroy, both superb talents.
Personally, I think we don't really need to throw young guys into the starting team.
Wales have also done it with Kristian Phillips and the Dragons guy whose name escapes me, and that didn't really work.
It's a delicate thing, you can't for example throw in a 21 year old prop. I also think that before we start throwing in teenagers, we should look at giving established players a fair shot.
Having said that, guys like Ruddock, Ryan, Nagle, Spence etc, who have the bulk and experience of ML should play some part in this years 6N imo.
Conway is a good example of a guy who, if thrown in too soon, could get crocked very easily, as he's just not grown out yet.

gcgirl

gcgirl wrote: »

If a player is good enough he will play regardless of age, Darce was unlucky he was doing his leaving cert when Gatland called him up in 98, he was 18, lukey Fitzgerald was 18/19 when he made his first appearance and Earls was not much older, I don't think there is really much to do other than see players step up I can see a few of the ulster lads pushing along with the usual suspects and age is not everything

of course the "old enough if good enough" argument will always be thrown out and there is a lot of truth in that but don't you think that Ireland tend to hang onto players a bit too long and consequentially younger guys don't get as much of a chance as they would elsewhere?

Darcy, Foley, Girvan Dempsey come to mind as examples. Even David Wallace.

wixfjord

glasso wrote: »

of course the "old enough if good enough" argument will always be thrown out and there is a lot of truth in that but don't you think that Ireland tend to hang onto players a bit too long and consequentially younger guys don't get as much of a chance as they would elsewhere?

Darcy, Foley, Girvan Dempsey come to mind as examples. Even David Wallace.

You could certainly make that case for some (even younger) players, but I think to mention that quartet, including a guy who many said was "back to his best" after the Italy game, and three of the best ever to play for Ireland, is bollocks tbh.

I realise that Oz has only 5 super 15 teams so is fairly similar in that regard. But we only have 2 marquee teams (Munster and Leinster) where most of the players come from.

wixfjord

wixfjord wrote: »

You could certainly make that case for some (even younger) players, but I think to mention that quartet, including a guy who many said was "back to his best" after the Italy game, and three of Ireland's of the best ever to play for Ireland, is bollocks tbh.

yes Wallace was playing great recently but he also went through periods where he wasn't and nobody else was given a decent shot.

JustinDee

glasso wrote: »

I realise that Oz has only 5 super 15 teams so is fairly similar in that regard. But we only have 2 marquee teams (Munster and Leinster) where most of the players come from.

How many of the Wallabies squad are not from either NSW or QLD? I'd say off the top of my head, Nine or Ten.
How many are not from Leinster or Munster? Eight.

andrewdcs

wixfjord wrote: »

We've Andrew Conway and Craig Gilroy, both superb talents.
Personally, I think we don't really need to throw young guys into the starting team.
Wales have also done it with Kristian Phillips and the Dragons guy whose name escapes me, and that didn't really work.
It's a delicate thing, you can't for example throw in a 21 year old prop. I also think that before we start throwing in teenagers, we should look at giving established players a fair shot.
Having said that, guys like Ruddock, Ryan, Nagle, Spence etc, who have the bulk and experience of ML should play some part in this years 6N imo.
Conway is a good example of a guy who, if thrown in too soon, could get crocked very easily, as he's just not grown out yet.

Having 4 teams in HC will be fantastic, making a few appearances (whether starting or no) and going well should put them on a list for the senior squad.

How many "A" games are we playing these days, is it still cut down to 4? (Or am I making that up, don't think they've been playing a full "A" 6 nations for a few years.

Haven't our U20s generally been murdered by France England etc. last few years? Thats where the player population realy tells, I think we're probably better at managing top pros / rotation than France or England, cos we have to be.

profitius

The main problem in this country is getting young players into provisional teams quicker. Connor Murray is 22 now and would still be fourth choice in Munster if it wasn't for injuries to the other scrum halfs.

I'd like to see less NIQ players in Ireland. 4 per team is enough. Even the project players will be taking up a spot for 3 seasons. So all together there are 24 NIQ players in the 4 provinces.

In the last round of Pro 12 games off the top of my head there was Botha, Du Preez, Howlett, Mafi, Wannenburg, Diack, Jared Payne, Nacewa, Van Der Merwe, Sykes, Auva'a, Strauss, Ha'Afailli, D Rodgers, Ofisa, Reynecke, Ah You involved. Thats a whole team of players and almost a match day squad! Which means we've only 3 Irish teams competing in total.

Most NIQ players seem to be props. Thats an area where players need game time to become better but at the moment the provinces are not willing to give players that time.

andrewdcs

andrewdcs wrote: »

I think we're probably better at managing top pros / rotation than France or England, cos we have to be.

that's a good point.

Would I be right in saying (don't have the stats - no doubt somebody here does) that over the last 10 years Ireland, if you took an average of the average team age, would have the oldest national team in top 10 world national teams? That can't be all down to just the "golden generation"?

JustinDee

JustinDee wrote: »

How many of the Wallabies squad are not from either NSW or QLD? I'd say off the top of my head, Nine or Ten.
.

11 more than a 1/3 of the squad

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia_national_rugby_union_team#Current_squad

JustinDee

andrewdcs wrote: »

Haven't our U20s generally been murdered by France England etc. last few years? Thats where the player population realy tells, I think we're probably better at managing top pros / rotation than France or England, cos we have to be.

No, they won the U20 Six Nations two seasons ago.

JustinDee

glasso wrote: »

11 more than a 1/3 of the squad

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia_national_rugby_union_team#Current_squad

So the squad is still dominated by two state franchises. Why? because they pick who they have to.
Just like Ireland.

CatFromHue

Yeah Wales do have 19 year old North on one wing but they have 34 year old Williams on the other!

If you take our starting pack we have Healy 23, Best 29, Ross 31, POC 31 , DOC 32, Ferris 26, SOB 24, and Heaslip 27 all giving an average age of 27.8

Look at the Oz starting pack where they have Kepu 25, Moore 28, Alexander 26, Horwill 26, Vickermann 32, Elsom 28, Pocock 23, and Samo 35 given an average age of 27.8

Not too much difference there so.

It's in the backs that the age difference comes about but it could be argued that Genia, JOC, and Beale are once in a generation players as they are that good. Genia in particular. They are also far ahead of their competition for their positions.

None of the young Irish talent is in the same league as these guy nor are they better than who's being picked ahead of them so you can't say they are being held back.

Regarding player development in NZ and SA they have the ITM Cup, played by 14 teams, and the Currie Cup, played by 14 teams too. Both these competitions are below the Super 15 and are played after it. Most of the international players don't play in these comps. So what you get is a great chance to look at a young player and how he performs week in week out. This is very different to Ireland and the Northern Hemisphere where we have one long continuous season with all competitions run simultaneously. You could say that in Ireland any young player is always in competition with a senior and/or international player.

Take Ian Nagle for example. In Munster he has DOC, POC, MOD, Ryan ahead of him. In New Zealand POC, DOC, and possibly Ryan wouldnt be around for the ITM Cup so Nagle would get a lot of senior rugby game time to develop.

Now take Sam Whitelock the Kiwi second row who was born a few days apart from Nagle. Whietlock started playing ITM cup in 2008 and has now got 19 or 28 games for Canterbury depending on where you look. He also made the break into Super Rugby in 2010 and now has 24 or 14 games for the Crusaders depending on where you look.

Nagle has 13 games for Munster. Now Whitelock is a better player than Nagle but has also been helped by having a lot of senior pro rugby as opposed to B&I or AIL rugby to develop.

Then there is also financial reasons for senior NZ, SA, or OZ players to move on which creates space for younger players to move upwards into. If say POC, DOC, and MOD were Kiwis I think it's fair to say that MOD would have headed north to get a better pay packet as he would always be behind DOC and POC.

Thud

JustinDee wrote: »

So the squad is still dominated by two state franchises. Why? because they pick who they have to.
Just like Ireland.

Honest question, is posting here part of your job with IRFU or just personal?

Kiwi_knock

Australia promoted a lot of their youth because of injuries and retirements. At one stage James Slipper had more International caps than Super Rugby caps.

If you look at Australia there is hardly any depth in their player pool, it could be hard to argue (Giteau aside) that any player they left out really deserved to be there.

Australian promoted the youth out of necessity rather than giving youth a chance.

JustinDee

Thud wrote: »

Honest question, is posting here part of your job with IRFU or just personal?

Not that its even relevant, I'm currently on hols, in the shade as its very hot today and posting on an internet chat forum.
Obviously its "personal".

totallegend

andrewdcs wrote: »

I think we're probably better at managing top pros / rotation than France or England, cos we have to be.

We are, not because we have to be but because most of our players are centrally contracted and the IRFU can pull them out of games as and when it suits them.

I think the thread is a valid one; I think one possible reason that has been overlooked is our inability not to care about results; the notion that Ireland would put out an experimental team is completely alien to us. Wales have gambled on young players and it's paid off in this World Cup, other times it's blown up in their faces. For every George North, there's a Tom Prydie, but if you give these guys a chance, let them prove their worth, every now and again you'll hit the jackpot and you end up with a world-class back row with an average age of 21.
Fitzgerald is notable in having been capped so young, D'Arcy and BOD (12 years ago) likewise, but after that, how many have there been? Earls was 21, Murray 22, hardly earth-shattering stuff. We need to bring in more talent at a younger age and if we lose a few Six Nations games, so what?

Let's see Craig Gilroy get a chance this year, let's stick Dom Ryan in and see can he do a job at #7, Spence, Barnes, POM; if they fall flat on their faces, so be it, at least we'll have tried something a bit different. Personally, I won't give a f**k if we win the Six Nations this year by grinding out three-point wins with the same bland rugby we've mostly seen since DK took over; I'd rather we won two from five while trying some new things and injecting some new blood into the side.

justsomebloke

Thud wrote: »

Honest question, is posting here part of your job with IRFU or just personal?

anyone who wants can post on these forums without question once they aren't pushing something

Legion2008

JustinDee wrote: »

How many of the Wallabies squad are not from either NSW or QLD? I'd say off the top of my head, Nine or Ten.
How many are not from Leinster or Munster? Eight.

This will change ... there are some really exciting players coming through from Ulster, Spence, Gilroy for example .... if you take the combined provinces game that opened the new lansdowne a lot of the stand out players were from ulster

JustinDee

Legion2008 wrote: »

This will change ... there are some really exciting players coming through from Ulster, Spence, Gilroy for example .... if you take the combined provinces game that opened the new lansdowne a lot of the stand out players were from ulster

Kind of my point actually. It doesn't matter where they're from so long as they're good enough. At the moment, most in Australia and Ireland are from NSW & QLD and Leinster and Munster respectively.

Thud

JustinDee wrote: »

Not that its even relevant, I'm currently on hols, in the shade as its very hot today and posting on an internet chat forum.
Obviously its "personal".

apologies i wasn't accusing you of pushing anything. You have a cool job for a cool employer so i wanted to know if opinions were your own as a fan or as an employee. you do come across a bit defensive of them at times but I'm sure i would too if i worked for them.

Enjoy the rest of Holiday!

profitius

David Wallace is interesting because although he is 35 he played well last season so just because a player is old it doesn't automatically mean they're past it. Having said that every team needs a bit of freshening up when things go a bit stale.

Individually there might be good reasons for keeping players on but the mileage on the clock soon starts to tell in the form of results. It is a team game after all.

I'd like to see BOD and POC there for another few seasons but I'd also like to see big changes to the team and style of play.

One good thing is the IRFU cut down on the number of central contracts not too long ago. This will give the management more flexibility. Maybe stopping with central contracts is the way to go and instead reward the provinces with some cash for every international they produce or something along that line.

JustinDee

profitius wrote: »

Maybe stopping with central contracts is the way to go and instead reward the provinces with some cash for every international they produce or something along that line

This is what central contracting already does.
If a player gains a central contract, their contract is underwritten by the union instead of one of its branches.
One of the many ways, the international game funds the national game.

CatFromHue

totallegend wrote: »

I think the thread is a valid one; I think one possible reason that has been overlooked is our inability not to care about results; the notion that Ireland would put out an experimental team is completely alien to us. Wales have gambled on young players and it's paid off in this World Cup, other times it's blown up in their faces. For every George North, there's a Tom Prydie, but if you give these guys a chance, let them prove their worth, every now and again you'll hit the jackpot and you end up with a world-class back row with an average age of 21.
Fitzgerald is notable in having been capped so young, D'Arcy and BOD (12 years ago) likewise, but after that, how many have there been? Earls was 21, Murray 22, hardly earth-shattering stuff. We need to bring in more talent at a younger age and if we lose a few Six Nations games, so what?

Tommy Bowe got capped at 20/21
Ferris at 21
Healy at 22 (Nov 2009 against Oz)
Heaslip at 22/23 (Nov 2006 against PI)
Kearney at 21 (Arg June 2007)
Trimble at 20 (Nov 2005 Oz

POC, ROG, Murphy would have first got capped at about 22/23

andrewdcs

totallegend wrote: »

We are, not because we have to be but because most of our players are centrally contracted and the IRFU can pull them out of games as and when it suits them.

I think the thread is a valid one; I think one possible reason that has been overlooked is our inability not to care about results; the notion that Ireland would put out an experimental team is completely alien to us. Wales have gambled on young players and it's paid off in this World Cup, other times it's blown up in their faces. For every George North, there's a Tom Prydie, but if you give these guys a chance, let them prove their worth, every now and again you'll hit the jackpot and you end up with a world-class back row with an average age of 21.
Fitzgerald is notable in having been capped so young, D'Arcy and BOD (12 years ago) likewise, but after that, how many have there been? Earls was 21, Murray 22, hardly earth-shattering stuff. We need to bring in more talent at a younger age and if we lose a few Six Nations games, so what?

Let's see Craig Gilroy get a chance this year, let's stick Dom Ryan in and see can he do a job at #7, Spence, Barnes, POM; if they fall flat on their faces, so be it, at least we'll have tried something a bit different. Personally, I won't give a f**k if we win the Six Nations this year by grinding out three-point wins with the same bland rugby we've mostly seen since DK took over; I'd rather we won two from five while trying some new things and injecting some new blood into the side.

Hmmm... take some of the points, but surely the whole thing is the balance, idea is not to lose and bring players through on a rolling basis. I'd be very unhappy with an experimental squad losing a 6 nations game. That's what tours / AIs are for.

I don't think we're doing too badly atm. but would like (if they keep going well) players like Gilroy etc. looked at, its a 22 man game.

danthefan

JustinDee wrote: »

This is what central contracting already does.
If a player gains a central contract, their contract is underwritten by the union instead of one of its branches.
One of the many ways, the international game funds the national game.

Are there figures made public of what each province earns every year?

profitius

JustinDee wrote: »

This is what central contracting already does.
If a player gains a central contract, their contract is underwritten by the union instead of one of its branches.
One of the many ways, the international game funds the national game.

Those with a central contract are less likely to get dropped. DOC for example has just signed a 2 or 3 year central contract. That puts the coach under pressure to keep picking him. Wales can drop half their squad at once but I doubt Kidney would be able to if he wanted to do it.

The example I gave wasn't the best either. Maybe give the provinces €2,000 for every cap they produce or money for every player who is missing for the provinces on international duty.

gcgirl

glasso wrote: »

gcgirl wrote: »

If a player is good enough he will play regardless of age, Darce was unlucky he was doing his leaving cert when Gatland called him up in 98, he was 18, lukey Fitzgerald was 18/19 when he made his first appearance and Earls was not much older, I don't think there is really much to do other than see players step up I can see a few of the ulster lads pushing along with the usual suspects and age is not everything

of course the "old enough if good enough" argument will always be thrown out and there is a lot of truth in that but don't you think that Ireland tend to hang onto players a bit too long and consequentially younger guys don't get as much of a chance as they would elsewhere?

Darcy, Foley, Girvan Dempsey come to mind as examples. Even David Wallace.

David Wallace is a complete freak words cannot describe how good he is for his age and Shane Horgan as well players will step up when the need is there

Badgermonkey

Thread title should be changed to - Getting quicker players into national team younger

We've been lacking out and out pace and the ability to make line breaks count since Denis Hickie retired and BOD & Darcy's pace has diminished.

Would love to see Conway, Gilroy and perhaps Spence get some game time.

gcgirl

gcgirl wrote: »

David Wallace is a complete freak words cannot describe how good he is for his age and Shane Horgan as well players will step up when the need is there

yes he was in form before the recent unfortunate injury. my point re him as I explained later in another post is that even when he wasn't really in form don't remember (no doubt will be shot down here...) anyone getting a decent go at the position.

totallegend

CatFromHue wrote: »

Tommy Bowe got capped at 20/21
Ferris at 21
Healy at 22 (Nov 2009 against Oz)
Heaslip at 22/23 (Nov 2006 against PI)
Kearney at 21 (Arg June 2007)
Trimble at 20 (Nov 2005 Oz

POC, ROG, Murphy would have first got capped at about 22/23

Yeah, I said in my post that being capped at 21/22 is "hardly earth-shattering stuff", certainly not in the James O'Connor league...

Heaslip was capped in 2006, anyone who saw him for Leinster that season (or the one before) could have told you that the guy was a class act, what happened when the World Cup rolled around? Left at home, Kearney likewise. Ferris got to the World Cup and played zero rugby. Class players overlooked for the likes of Neil Best and Brian Carney, it hardly smacks of adventurous selections and bringing through youth which is what we're talking about here.

profitius

profitius wrote: »

Those with a central contract are less likely to get dropped. DOC for example has just signed a 2 or 3 year central contract. That puts the coach under pressure to keep picking him. Wales can drop half their squad at once but I doubt Kidney would be able to if he wanted to do it.

that point seems to make sense - how do Wales manage contracts exactly?

totallegend

JustinDee wrote: »

This is what central contracting already does.
If a player gains a central contract, their contract is underwritten by the union instead of one of its branches.
One of the many ways, the international game funds the national game.

Dude, you're on holidays, take a break from the IRFU cheerleading.

The IRFU gets a substantial proportion of its cash from the provinces competing in the ERC, does it not?

danthefan

totallegend wrote: »

Dude, you're on holidays, take a break from the IRFU cheerleading.

The IRFU gets a substantial proportion of its cash from the provinces competing in the ERC, does it not?

If you do some back of a napkin calculations on ticket sales for Leinster and Munster alone: say they sell 15k tickets for every home game (I know this is wrong but whatever) at €25 a ticket, that's over €11m between the two, and this is a conservative estimate because I would imagine both the average ticket price and number of tickets sold is probably higher. And that's also ignoring outliers like a game in Lansdowne, Leinster had 3 last season (SF doesn't count, ERC take receipts of that). The provinces quite clearly make a massive contribution to the finances of the IRFU.

CatFromHue

danthefan wrote: »

If you do some back of a napkin calculations on ticket sales for Leinster and Munster alone: say they sell 15k tickets for every home game (I know this is wrong but whatever) at €25 a ticket, that's over €11m between the two, and this is a conservative estimate because I would imagine both the average ticket price and number of tickets sold is probably higher. And that's also ignoring outliers like a game in Lansdowne, Leinster had 3 last season (SF doesn't count, ERC take receipts of that). The provinces quite clearly make a massive contribution to the finances of the IRFU.

True but for more napkin calculations Leinster have a senior playing squad of 44 of which about 15 might have IRFU central contracts. That leaves 29 who don't. If these guys get on average 150,000 a year that's a salary bill of 4,350,000. This doesn't include back up staff, management, and academy players. Then there would also be rent on the RDS (I think we pay this), travel and hotel costs (Flying/busing to away games and hotel accommodation for 30 players can't be cheap)

In a regular season Leinster play 14 home games which with your numbers would give 5,250,000. Jersey sponsorship would also add to this as would general sponsorship.

So Leinster mighten contribute as much as you think to the IRFU.

I'm not sure what happens to the TV money for the Heineken cup / Pro 12 but I think it goes to the IRFU.

danthefan

I didn't really look at costs because I'd be even further into guesswork than I already am. Obviously there are significant costs associated with running a province. In 09/10 the income of the IRFU was around €60m, the point I was trying to make is the provinces do make a significant contribution to this figure.

JustinDee

totallegend wrote: »

Dude, you're on holidays, take a break from the IRFU cheerleading.

The IRFU gets a substantial proportion of its cash from the provinces competing in the ERC, does it not?

Sponsorship, TV rights, govt funding are the main sources of revenue to the game in Ireland. The national side is the largest channel in this respect. Underwriting of insurance cost also substantial as well as coaching, development and academy programmes.

Not taking anything from provincial effects on game either. At the end of the day, its all one organisation running the game.

This isn't at all "cheerleading". Just thought I'd lend a line or two from what I know myself.
Like I said, its a bloody hot one today so I thought I'd just stick out for an 'online siesta'.
Not to worry.

CatFromHue

totallegend wrote: »

Yeah, I said in my post that being capped at 21/22 is "hardly earth-shattering stuff", certainly not in the James O'Connor league...

Heaslip was capped in 2006, anyone who saw him for Leinster that season (or the one before) could have told you that the guy was a class act, what happened when the World Cup rolled around? Left at home, Kearney likewise. Ferris got to the World Cup and played zero rugby. Class players overlooked for the likes of Neil Best and Brian Carney, it hardly smacks of adventurous selections and bringing through youth which is what we're talking about here.

Neil Best was playing very well at the time as were Easterby, Wallace, and Leamy. Carney was an enigma that possibly could have worked out very well but didn't. I'd say Carney was actually a very adventurous selection. Kearney would not have gotten ahead of Horgan, Trimble, and definitely not ahead of Dempsey.

danthefan wrote: »

I didn't really look at costs because I'd be even further into guesswork than I already am. Obviously there are significant costs associated with running a province. In 09/10 the income of the IRFU was around €60m, the point I was trying to make is the provinces do make a significant contribution to this figure.

Yeah its pie in the sky without seeing the accounts and it really does depend on what you mean by significant. My gut feeling is that they don't though.

According to the link below in 2010 the European Rugby board gave 33m to its competing nations. I'm guessing we get 1/5 of that so about 6.6m or approx 2.2m per province. These are all guestimates of course. This is the only TV revenue that Leinster would get as I imagine the then Magners wouldn't be anything substantial.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2011/0404/1224293736109.html

When you look at the Leinster website they have listed, 35 branch personnel, 5 coaching staff, and 18 academy players. That makes an extra 58 salary's to be paid as well as the approx 29 senior players not on central contracts. That's a fair whack.

What is fair to say though is that Connacht would not make any contribution!

Podge_irl

glasso wrote: »

I realise that Oz has only 5 super 15 teams so is fairly similar in that regard. But we only have 2 marquee teams (Munster and Leinster) where most of the players come from.

Most of the players come from there because they are the best players not because it's designed that way. I would be amazed if, in two or three years time, there is not quite a large Ulster contingent (possibly larger then the Munster one).

Getting players into the national team quickly isn't the only problem, getting them into the provincial teams is as important, if not more so. You can only select players who are earning their selection at the lower level after all. Besides, for all the Norths and JOCs who work out there are plenty other young players who become 1 or 2 cap wonders.

totallegend

totallegend wrote: »

Yeah, I said in my post that being capped at 21/22 is "hardly earth-shattering stuff", certainly not in the James O'Connor league...

Using "years on this earth" as a metric as opposed to "years playing rugby" will cloud this argument hugely.

Don't forget that there genuinely isn't much chance outside of schools rugby for anyone to play the game until they are 15/16+.

This is not reflected in Australia, where both Rugby Union and Rugby League are played and trained for in larger numbers at young ages.

We're behind in development at youth levels, and it translates into our players having a few more "earth" years on them when they get to have a similar amount of "rugby" years. It is a function of our society, and the incredible grip that GAA, Hurling and soccer have over kids in the 6-12 age group.

JustinDee

Deleted User wrote: »

Using "years on this earth" as a metric as opposed to "years playing rugby" will cloud this argument hugely.

Don't forget that there genuinely isn't much chance outside of schools rugby for anyone to play the game until they are 15/16+.

This is not reflected in Australia, where both Rugby Union and Rugby League are played and trained for in larger numbers at young ages.

We're behind in development at youth levels, and it translates into our players having a few more "earth" years on them when they get to have a similar amount of "rugby" years. It is a function of our society, and the incredible grip that GAA, Hurling and soccer have over kids in the 6-12 age group.

A little too broad.
Union in Australia is primarily a private/GPS school sport that feeds the clubs then in turn the pro teams. Even more so than in Ireland.

League in Australia on the other hand has used the academy system since the early 70s and developed youths in the club system from the early age. Hence the O'Connors, Giteaus (Giteaux? ) , Elsoms, Beales and Palus being scouted early for scholarships.
It is still limited to two states and a university city (Canberra). If you think GAA vs any other sport is significant in Ireland you should take a look at how protective the likes of VIC, SA and WA are of AFL.

CatFromHue

The minis have become huge so hopefully this will translate in 15 to 20 years.

My nephew is 6 and he plays for his local team but some of the story's my sister tells me are ridiculous!

CatFromHue

CatFromHue wrote: »

The minis have become huge so hopefully this will translate in 15 to 20 years.

My nephew is 6 and he plays for his local team but some of the story's my sister tells me are ridiculous!

yeah we're getting there, but the knock on does take ages to come through!

@JustinDee, the main thing is actually the "sprinting through gaps" ideas that kids put to use in Aus that we actually only get in one game in Ireland. Even without playing the games to a competitive levels, having kids throwing rugby balls around, playing tag at schools etc is a huge step towards the development of the skills that we rarely see. RL is a bigger game, but the ideas behind developing the skills for both start the same at the young age groups.

monkey90

wixfjord wrote: »

You could certainly make that case for some (even younger) players, but I think to mention that quartet, including a guy who many said was "back to his best" after the Italy game, and three of the best ever to play for Ireland, is bollocks tbh.

But don't you see that this is exactly the problem? Players getting picked on reputation.

JustinDee

Deleted User wrote: »

@JustinDee, the main thing is actually the "sprinting through gaps" ideas that kids put to use in Aus that we actually only get in one game in Ireland. Even without playing the games to a competitive levels, having kids throwing rugby balls around, playing tag at schools etc is a huge step towards the development of the skills that we rarely see. RL is a bigger game, but the ideas behind developing the skills for both start the same at the young age groups.

Mini-rugby is huge in Ireland and as with all kids rugby, is run to IRB guidelines. Competitive games aren't until after a certain age and skills will depend on who is actually running the club's mini programme.
There really isn't that much difference in youths rugby union in Ireland and Australia.

JustinDee

JustinDee wrote: »

Mini-rugby is huge in Ireland and as with all kids rugby, is run to IRB guidelines. Competitive games aren't until after a certain age and skills will depend on who is actually running the club's mini programme.
There really isn't that much difference in youths rugby union in Ireland and Australia.

there was 12 years ago when James O'Connor started playing rugby

JustinDee

Deleted User wrote: »

there was 12 years ago when James O'Connor started playing rugby

Nope. It was even more similar back then. O'Connor would have been a RL junior back then.

There's a joke that used to go the rounds when I played RL.
When William Webb Ellis picked up the ball and ran, he invented rugby league. If he invented rugby union, he would have kicked the thing out of the grounds.