Racing flats versus Regular training shoes

dev123

After a quick search on-line there seems to be agreement that racing flats could knock 3-5 minutes off your marathon time

http://www.marathonbible.com/marathon-racing-flats.html

http://www.the-fitness-motivator.com/racing-flats.html

Now if we can agree on what a racing flat actually is it would be pbs for everyone in the audience

Pronator

I wore the DS racers in the Rotterdam marathon this year. It was the first time I have put on a lighter shoe for a marathon. Apart from needed two hip and knee replacements afterwards :eek: they were fine.

If I was to wear a pair of asics 2160's and run a 5k I would not be much slower than wearing the DS racer. I think the benefit of wearing a lighter shoe (not necessarily a flat) would be more pronounced the greater the distance you cover.

I plan on wearing the DS racer in DCM, I'll be crippled for days after but I think if you look at the many thousands of times you lift your feet over the course of 26.2 miles, 20-30g less for each lift has to make a difference:rolleyes:

Incidently, I bought a pair of DS sky speed, these are a neutral light weight runner and not a flat. As I pronate I would not wear these for longer runs.......you would need shades for these bad boys:D

dna_leri

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Well there you go.. I wouldn't have considered running in racing flats unless I was significantly faster, as I would've have thought than any weight advantage would be greatly off-set by the heightened risk of injury given my weight and running form. You live and learn..

Krusty - I would recommend you try them for shorter racers. I got a pair of Brooks T5s earlier this year and have worn them for up to 10K. You really can feel the difference, though I used strides to get used to them first.

Even better I only paid 25 quid for my end of line 6oz rzcers.

RacoonQueen

T runner wrote: »

Is there good traction on the triangular lugs on the Kinvavra may i ask?

Not sure if it's comparable to the sort of runs you'd be doing in the mountains but I've worn them on the hills in the phoenix park(the grassy ones) in all sorts of weather and the grip is very good. No problems and no slipping.

As meno said, I wear racing flats and 'minimalist' shoes for more or less every run. The most cushioned shoe I wear is the saucony fastwitch 4;



Tonight I ran 11 miles in hattoris;



I plan on bringing up the distance in the hattori but have done 20 miles in lunaracers and will wear them if I do DCM.

I think it's more about training yourself to be able to run in them than anything else. There are some people with mad gait patterns who I wouldn't recommend them too but I've seen a few people who've posted in this thread run (trust me, I'm obsessed I actually watch how yee run) and I don't see why they couldn't run longer distances in racing flats.

Edit: I agree there's a difference between racing flats and 'minimalist' shoes hattoris, road-x and minimus are definitely minimalist compared to your traditional racing flat. Lunaracers are definitely a racing flat. I think I'd consider the kinvara's as more of a lightweight trainer to be honest. I won't be wearing them as racers any more, though I used to.

Edit 2: On the weight thing, I'll also point out that I'm probably around half a stone heavier than whats recommended for racing flats and have no injury problems. The last time I was out with a running related injury was May/June 2009 when I missed about 6 weeks from wearing mizuno wave creation.

TFBubendorfer

Seres wrote: »

you think its down to weight only then ?

Pretty much, yes. That's just my personal opinion, of course.

TFBubendorfer

T runner wrote: »

Is there good traction on the triangular lugs on the Kinvavra may i ask?

I never encountered any problems whatsoever. From dirt roads to wet asphalt, traction was never an issue.

They are not hill-running shoes, though. The lugs are not comparable to anything you'd have on Inov-8s or similar.

RacoonQueen

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

Pretty much, yes. That's just my personal opinion, of course.

You should get a pair of hattori or road-x 155. If you can do 50 miles in lunaracers you'll be able to do distance running in those shoes no bother.

Womens hattori are 3.8 oz compared to 4.5oz for the lunars - haven't had a chance to weigh the road-x yet.

pconn062

I get a bit confused by all this racing flat stuff. Could anyone recommend a good pair of racing flats that could cover all distances, maybe apart from marathon. Is there a flat that would work from 3-5k up to half marathon or would you have to have a few pairs? I feel my pegasus would do me for the marathon cause at the moment I am not chasing super fast marathon times so the extras support I feel would be better.

bart simpson

i have a pair of asics hyperspeed 4.....i only use them for races, i feel they knock about 5 sec a mile
i have done the dublin half in them, but i wouldnt do a full marathon in them, they are a bit harder on the feet alright but a full minute over a half or 10 miler makes them worth it and i feel the effects of waring them get less the more i use them

Hard Worker

Racing shoes are not just determined by weight. Primarily, it is down to the type of last the shoe is built on and the amount of flexibility in the shoe. Training shoes are designed with cushioning and support and can have all sorts of gadgets to stop foot roll etc.
It should be remembered that if you wear a training shoe ( support / cushioning ) in a race, you actually use more energy trying to get on your toes and race because you are working against the cushioning and gadgets. The more flexible the shoe, the less energy you will use. Basically, if you were to go out and run a 5 minute mile one day in trainers and the next day in racers, you would find the 5 minute mile in racers was so much easier.
This doesn't mean that you can change over immediately. You do need to adjust and build up your tolerance.
I'm surprised that RoadRunner and Krusty don't ( or feel they can't ) wear racers. Build up your 20 x 400 or 8 x 800 in them and wear them in 10K's and you will soon get used to them and find great benefit in them.

TFBubendorfer

RacoonQueen wrote: »

You should get a pair of hattori or road-x 155. If you can do 50 miles in lunaracers you'll be able to do distance running in those shoes no bother.

Womens hattori are 3.8 oz compared to 4.5oz for the lunars - haven't had a chance to weigh the road-x yet.

Maybe, maybe not. But since I just had to chuck out the Kinvaras after only 525 miles on them because they hurt my shin (at least the pain stopped once I stopped using them), I'm a bit weary to try something even more minimalistic (not that the Kinvaras are minimalist shoes).

But yes, I did indeed wear the lunaracers in a 50 mile race and would (will ) do so again.

TheRoadRunner

Hard Worker wrote: »

I'm surprised that RoadRunner and Krusty don't ( or feel they can't ) wear racers. Build up your 20 x 400 or 8 x 800 in them and wear them in 10K's and you will soon get used to them and find great benefit in them.

You hit the nail on the head regards building up to wearing them by using them in training. I do use them for races shorter than 10 miles although I am usually sore for a few days. It's something I'll try and incorporate into my training over the next few months.

Krusty_Clown

Hard Worker wrote: »

I'm surprised that RoadRunner and Krusty don't ( or feel they can't ) wear racers. Build up your 20 x 400 or 8 x 800 in them and wear them in 10K's and you will soon get used to them and find great benefit in them.

Sounds advice. I'll pick up a pair and try them for the first time in Dublin marathon.

Gringo78

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Sounds advice. I'll pick up a pair and try them for the first time in Dublin marathon.

All joking aside - if you are trying out racing flats (based on recent painful experience) do it at a track or loop circuit where you can change out of them conveniently. I tried to break in a new pair of Saucony Kilkenny XC4's and so put them on for a short 4-5 mile easy run - 2 miles from home I realised they were cutting the back of my ankles of me, the 2 miles back home was not pleasant at all and I thought about even running barefoot - 2 of the biggest blisters I've ever got for my troubles.

menoscemo

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Sounds advice. I'll pick up a pair and try them for the first time in Dublin marathon.

Your used to Mizunos right? The wave musha should suit you, I picked up a pair in base 2 race a few weeks ago for €45. At 8oz they are not overly light and should be a good 'transition' shoe.

T runner

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Not sure if it's comparable to the sort of runs you'd be doing in the mountains but I've worn them on the hills in the phoenix park(the grassy ones) in all sorts of weather and the grip is very good. No problems and no slipping.

Excellent. I do a road/off road race in Sligo every year: need some grip for a grassy descent..that sounds perfect!!!!

As meno said, I wear racing flats and 'minimalist' shoes for more or less every run. The most cushioned shoe I wear is the saucony fastwitch 4;

I do likewise. Have all kinds of racers. Wave musha, brooks T6, DS racers, luna racers etc. Havent tried the Hattoris or minimalist stuff yet though.

Got there by buying each consecutive pair of trainers with slighly less cushioning and support. I have DS trainers too but dont wear them so much.

TheRoadRunner

The main thing I've learned from this thread. There are some serious shoe collectors on this message board. Imelda Marcos would be impressed

RayCun

as would Slogger jogger

pre

Pronator wrote: »

I wore the DS racers in the Rotterdam marathon this year. It was the first time I have put on a lighter shoe for a marathon. Apart from needed two hip and knee replacements afterwards :eek: they were fine.

If I was to wear a pair of asics 2160's and run a 5k I would not be much slower than wearing the DS racer. I think the benefit of wearing a lighter shoe (not necessarily a flat) would be more pronounced the greater the distance you cover.

I plan on wearing the DS racer in DCM, I'll be crippled for days after but I think if you look at the many thousands of times you lift your feet over the course of 26.2 miles, 20-30g less for each lift has to make a difference:rolleyes:
Incidently, I bought a pair of DS sky speed, these are a neutral light weight runner and not a flat. As I pronate I would not wear these for longer runs.......you would need shades for these bad boys:D

I bought creps for DCM

anymore

I started off running marathons in the lightweight Nike Lunar and really loved them but now have to use the heavier Nike structure for more support. Wish I could use the Lunars again though.

seanynova

i wore flats in a maratohn yesterday and my feet were killing me from early on, i wore them in a half earlier in the year but i wont be wearing them again for a marathon unless i train in them etc....
i actually used them for a marathon last year also and they hurt then too but i forgot how much!
yesterday was defo worse as it also effected my ability to keep pace. i actually had to focus on heel striking to take pressure off the balls of my feet...and there were a few face cringes thrown in for good measure.

woke up today with numb toes....

not ruling them out but would recommend training in them(LSR's etc) before making a decision.

Clearlier

I started off with the Mizuno Wave Inspire range and moved on to the Wave Rider range when I got a bit fitter and more stable - the difference was incredible. I picked up some Musha's a few months ago because I just didn't like the feel of the new wave rider (14). I quickly realised that I can't run fast in them while carrying the extra weight that I do. I do however use them for recovery runs and it really helps me to focus on my form. The lazy foot position that I can get away with in the wave riders gives me jarring pain in the Musha's. I'd love to use them in a race but I'm going to have to lose the weight first. In the meantime I think that they're a great tool for working on my stride.

Domer

Looking for some input and whether people put their Orthodics into their flats? I have always shy'd away from using buying flats for fear of them resulting in problems due to not wearing my orthodics. Just did a quick check by weighing one of my Asics 2160. One shoe weights 390grams with the supplied insoles, and 470grams with the customer orthodics. The orthodics weigh 105 grams each comparted to 25 grams for the generic insoles, so it seems putting the orthodics into racing flats defeats the whole purpose of having racing flats at all. I would like to used them over 5k-10k only.

Anybody else have this problem, and what do people do?

Thanks
Domer

Krusty_Clown

Clearlier wrote: »

I do however use them for recovery runs and it really helps me to focus on my form. The lazy foot position that I can get away with in the wave riders gives me jarring pain in the Musha's. I'd love to use them in a race but I'm going to have to lose the weight first. In the meantime I think that they're a great tool for working on my stride.

Presumably you'd get a similar benefit from wearing spikes. I wore some at the weekend, to start breaking them in for an upcoming xc race, and found them so minimalist, that I felt it would have a positive impact on my form (even on grass). Would like to pick up some cheap Mushas, but I reckon I've a few too many pairs of running shoes at the moment. I fear I'm turning into a RacoonQueen.

Brianderunner

seanynova wrote: »

i wore flats in a maratohn yesterday and my feet were killing me from early on, i wore them in a half earlier in the year but i wont be wearing them again for a marathon unless i train in them etc....

+1, I made that mistake once too, never to be repeated. Racing flats are for sub 2'30 marathoners imo.

Clearlier

Domer wrote: »

Looking for some input and whether people put their Orthodics into their flats? I have always shy'd away from using buying flats for fear of them resulting in problems due to not wearing my orthodics. Just did a quick check by weighing one of my Asics 2160. One shoe weights 390grams with the supplied insoles, and 470grams with the customer orthodics. The orthodics weigh 105 grams each comparted to 25 grams for the generic insoles, so it seems putting the orthodics into racing flats defeats the whole purpose of having racing flats at all. I would like to used them over 5k-10k only.

Anybody else have this problem, and what do people do?

Thanks
Domer

I use orthotics and put them in flats just like other runners. The only issue I've ever had with them in shoes was when I put them in spikes and tried to sprint. Obviously I was on my toes then so the orthotics were redundant and the weight actually pulled the heel of the spike away from my foot and it kept slapping back into my heel on every stride.

n-dawg

I have two pairs of "flats" for racing in, I have the Asics Hyperspeed and Asics DS Racers.

The Hyperspeed are proper flats with no support and are super light. They get me up on my toes and my feet just feel fast and light in them. However after about 10 miles my feat are screaming and I cant go any further. I would guess that they are up to 30s faster for a 5km then a training shoe. How much of this is real gains and how much is psychological (they're red) I don't know.

The DS Racers are my favourite shoe. There still super light with a small amount of arch support. They don't have the snappy feel of the Hyperspeed, but I can ware them for anything up to marathon distance without any pain. Over a 5km I would guess that they are about 20s faster then training shoes. Again I dont know how much is really due to the shoe (As they are blue there not quite as fast as the hyperspeed, plus there name isn't as fast). I think they would make a perfect first racing flat as I would consider them an intermediate between my training shoes and a full on flat like the hyperspeed.

I don't train in my flats very often, just fast interval sessions and race prep runs. This is because the price you pay for them being super light is that they ware our super fast...

Gringo78

Brianderunner wrote: »

+1, I made that mistake once too, never to be repeated. Racing flats are for sub 2'30 marathoners imo.

Flats just take time to get used to - when I first got Asics DS Trainers 2 years ago I thought I was being very daring as I had been used to Kayanos. Then when I got DS racers I thought I was really pushing things putting them on for a 5k race (it felt like they had no support at all). It was a gradual move however over 12 months to just using them for short races to finally using them for all runs and now they feel as cushioned as the Kayanos felt...The DS racers are my everyday runners now, use them for long runs now no problem. By the way, I'm 5ft 10 & 75kg so would be considered overweight for a runner

RacoonQueen

Brianderunner wrote: »

+1, I made that mistake once too, never to be repeated. Racing flats are for sub 2'30 marathoners imo.

Why? What difference does what time you're capable of make if flats are helping you improve your times?

Brianderunner

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Why? What difference does what time you're capable of make if flats are helping you improve your times?

They're too harsh on your legs, increase injury risk etc. Huge difference between 2'10 and 3'30, time on your feet wise. I'd say 10 miles or a half at a stretch is the furthest a non elite should go in them. Of course some people will "get away with it", but thats what they're doing imo.