Protestant Republicans during the troubles

paky

I remember reading about a guy who was leader of the INLA at one stage during the troubles and he was murdered specifically because of this. His father was in the British army and his family background was unionist i think. Are there any other instances where protestants were involved on the republican side during the troubles? Joe Cahill mentions in his book that they had a cell called the 'prod squad' but somehow i dont believe this is true.

Tiocfaidh Armani

His name was Ronnie Bunting, his da was a loyalist and a Paisleyite, which makes it all the more strange. but yeah loyalists couldn't wait to kill him.

I'm not sure about the 'prod squad' to be honest, it seems after partition of tradition of some republicanism in the Protestant community died away as society there became more polarised.

Jellybaby1

Everything always seemed to be either black or white in Northern Ireland, never a grey or any other colour. It's a terrible shame, all that hatred, it can eat you up. Sorry for butting in here, but felt I needed to say it.

Del.Monte

Here's a thread with a few names but I fail to see the point of this research.
http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2010/10/05/orange-grand-master-loses-the-bap/

Exile 1798

Tiocfaidh Armani wrote: »

His name was Ronnie Bunting, his da was a loyalist and a Paisleyite, which makes it all the more strange. but yeah loyalists couldn't wait to kill him.

Bunting's cousin Walter Ellis wrote in his book The Beginning of the End: The Crippling Disadvantage of a Happy Irish Childhood that Ronnie's father had previously been a Liberal Unionist. From the book:

Ronnie was shattered when his father, who had once been election agent for Gerry Fitt, the Republican Labour MP, was reborn as a Protestant loony. In early 1969 Major Bunting led an attack on a protest march from Belfast to Londonderry by the student-based People’s Democracy movement. More than 200 of the major’s men descended on the students at Burntollet Bridge, near the village of Killaloo, with pickaxe handles and iron bars. (One of those given a bloody nose was Bruce Anderson, now a right-wing columnist but in those days a Sixties radical.)

Ronnie, who had always respected his dad, was profoundly ashamed. No longer was he an onlooker; now, aged 21, he wanted to hit back.

Ellis also claims that while Ronnie was a notorious INLA leader, his father continued to aid him, at various times urging Ellis and other members of the Bunting family to let Ronnie stay with them in an attempt to save him from assassination. When he was murdered, supposedly by the UVF, his father was devastated - despite the fact that he was a "liquidate the enemies of Ulster" kind of Unionist politician.

Another anecdote from Ellis, in life Ronnie was also fond of putting to good use the Protestant-Unionist-Middle Class background of his family. From the same chapter as the previous passage:

I saw much less of him (ed- Ronnie Bunting) after that, but in the early summer of 1971 he phoned my mother and asked her if she could do him a favour. A friend of his, Joe, had had a terrible argument with his wife. If mum could put Joe up for a couple of days, he was sure they’d sort things out and get back together.

My mother had known Ronnie since he was 12 years old and she and his dad were cousins. What harm could it do? Joe was good looking, charming, with impeccable manners, and said he was a brickie. Mum took to him instantly. When he left he gave her a hug and said he was terribly grateful. Dad gave him a lift.

He wasn’t Joe the brickie, of course. Or at least he hadn’t been for several years. He was Joe McCann, soon to be the Most Wanted Man in Ireland. A day or two before going into hiding at my mum’s, he had shot and killed a British soldier. In the months ahead he would be responsible for scores of attacks on soldiers and members of the RUC.

Incidentally, today is the 31st anniversary of Ronnie Bunting's murder.

steddyeddy

There was many many protestent republicans before the troubles even in the north and even during the troubles there was still protestent republicans although they were often targetted by loyalist protestents.

Judgement Day

steddyeddy wrote: »

There was many many protestent republicans before the troubles even in the north and even during the troubles there was still protestent republicans although they were often targetted by loyalist protestents.

I think many many is a major exaggeration - where are your sources for this? I have only ever known one Protestant 'republican' and he was only of the well heeled, armchair variety who probably only had such views to shock his father - a High Court Judge.

steddyeddy

Judgement Day wrote: »

I think many many is a major exaggeration - where are your sources for this? I have only ever known one Protestant 'republican' and he was only of the well heeled, armchair variety who probably only had such views to shock his father - a High Court Judge.

Well many is an exaggeration but I have known a few protestent republican families who moved south when things started getting heated. Protestent and republican are not polarised terms. Its just dangerous to hold that view in certain parts of the north.

Tarzan7

Judgement Day wrote: »

I think many many is a major exaggeration - where are your sources for this? I have only ever known one Protestant 'republican' and he was only of the well heeled, armchair variety who probably only had such views to shock his father - a High Court Judge.

I think that may be a major exaggeration - where are your sources for this?

Judgement Day

Tarzan7 wrote: »

I think many many is a major exaggeration - where are your sources for this?

I'm sure that you're trying to make a point it but I don't see it.

baalthor

A few years ago, Phoenix Magazine ran articles about a Church of Ireland clergyman in the south who they alleged had been a member of the Official IRA.

iskra1916

Thankfully, Irish Republicanism and Irish Republican Socialism has always been a secular ideology.

The person who commented about Ronnie Bunting (RIP) was correct, it was his 31st anniversary yesterday. His father had been a Paisleyite at one time but prior to that had been Gerry Fitt's election agent in the 1960s (Fitt was a moderate Nationalist politician)

iskra1916

Joe Cahill does make reference to an IRA unit was based in the Shankill prior to the recent conflict known popularly as 'The Troubles'

As most know, the founding father of modern Irish Republicanism, Wolfe Tone, was a Protestant.

Liam Tumlinson from Belfast was a Protestant Republican who died fighting fascism in the Spanish civil war

Jellybaby1

Just off the top of my head, weren't the following (and many more) Protestants also in favour of Catholic emancipation and home rule. Indeed some died fighting for Ireland. I'm not a historian, but maybe someone else can add to the list.


Wolfe Tone
Robert Emmet
Lord Edward Fitzgerald
Henry Grattan
Douglas Hyde
Erskine Childers

iskra1916

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

Just off the top of my head, weren't the following (and many more) Protestants also in favour of Catholic emancipation and home rule. Indeed some died fighting for Ireland. I'm not a historian, but maybe someone else can add to the list.


Wolfe Tone
Robert Emmet
Lord Edward Fitzgerald
Henry Grattan
Douglas Hyde
Erskine Childers

Some others off the top of my head would be:

Liam Tumlinson, (IRA - XV International Brigades)
Henry Joy McCracken (United Irishmen - 1798)
William Orr (United Irishmen - 1798)
Sam Maguire (Old IRA)
Roger Casement
Francis Sheehy Skeffington
George Plant (IRA 1940s)
John Turnley (IIP - murdered by Loyalists)
Noel Little, (INLA)
Alex Patterson (INLA)

Judgement Day

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

Just off the top of my head, weren't the following (and many more) Protestants also in favour of Catholic emancipation and home rule. Indeed some died fighting for Ireland. I'm not a historian, but maybe someone else can add to the list.


Wolfe Tone
Robert Emmet
Lord Edward Fitzgerald
Henry Grattan
Douglas Hyde
Erskine Childers

A bit off topic as it is the recent 'Troubles' that we are discussing but you could just as easily knock up a list such as...

Edward Carson
Brian Faulkner (former PM of Northern Ireland)
Sir Henry Wilson
Lord Kitchener
The Duke of Wellington
Admiral Beatty of Jutland fame
Lord Roberts of Kandahar

and I'm sure a list of Roman Catholic Unionists could also be produced.

Jellybaby1

I see the list is getting longer. Very interesting. And so that means that Catholics do not have a monopoly on republicanism. That may be surprising news to quite a lot of people. I'd like to see if any more names are added to the list.

MarchDub

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

I see the list is getting longer. Very interesting. And so that means that Catholics do not have a monopoly on republicanism. That may be surprising news to quite a lot of people. I'd like to see if any more names are added to the list.

Jellybaby - I don't think Judgement Day was 'adding' to your list. He was offering an alternative.

Jellybaby1

You're right, I wasn't focusing. Busy day.

Judgement Day

Daniel O'Connell 'The Liberator' could be the first on a list of Roman Catholic Unionists as he wanted an independent 'kingdom' of Ireland but still with Queen Victoria as Head of State. Way off topic and worthy (?) of a new thread.

MarchDub

Judgement Day wrote: »

Daniel O'Connell 'The Liberator' could be the first on a list of Roman Catholic Unionists as he wanted an independent 'kingdom' of Ireland but still with Queen Victoria as Head of State. Way off topic and worthy (?) of a new thread.

We ought to be careful here with terminology and historic context. The terms ‘unionist’ and 'unionism’ have altered racially since O’Connell’s time. Nowadays 'unionism' is not considered to be compatible with Irish nationalism so to suggest - and this is how I think your post reads - that O'Connell would fit in with contemporary 'unionists' is very misleading.

But even give that, some clarification is needed as regards the era of O’Connell and what his aspirations were, and what was even possible to achieve. Remember O’Connell was a clever tactician and took positions that he knew would win him constitutional gains. As time went on – and after he had secured Catholic Emancipation – he became more radical as regards the Union and in fact wanted the Act of Union between Britain and Ireland repealed. He declared 1843 to be “Repeal the Union Year’ and held so called 'monster' meetings to encourage popular support for this.

In a speech in Mullingar in May 1843 O’Connell said:

“My first object is to get Ireland for the Irish. An Irish parliament would foster Irish commerce and protect Irish agriculture. The present state of Ireland is nearly unendurable…I ask what good did the union do?”

In the 1840s he couched his determination on breaking the Union in economic terms and with economic arguments against union.

Wolfe Tone

I know personally a few protestant republicans, including some relations.

KeithAFC

There is not that many Republican Protestants. It probably got even less when the Troubles started to heat up. The vast majority are Unionists/Loyalists. I think it was spot on with the exaggeration comment. There isn't "many many" Republican Protestants.

Delancey

baalthor wrote: »

A few years ago, Phoenix Magazine ran articles about a Church of Ireland clergyman in the south who they alleged had been a member of the Official IRA.

That was an interesting case , the guy was called Steven something or other and had worked as journalist in the Irish Times before leaving to take up ministry as a clergyman.
He was subsequently killed in a robbery at his presbytery , the case attracted wide comment when the offenders were given what were felt to be very light sentences , amid this furore Phoenix ran an article stating he had once been an IRA member.
The Irish Times chapel of the National Union of Journalists took grave exception to what they said was a slur on the good name of their ex-colleague and reported Phoenix to the NUJ who ruled Phoenix journalists had breached the Code of Ethics ( didn't know journalists had any ).

Phoenix appealed the ruling and when the appeal was heard several former IRA members came forward to testify that the clergyman was indeed a former comrade. Phoenix magazine had their appeal upheld and the original finding was overturned.

Just wish I could recall the full name of the clergyman....

steddyeddy

Outside of ireland there was many protestent republicans. In america for instance.

Curiosity12

There are actually quite a few protestant republicans and I think it is fair to say that a general white wash of this has been generated throughout our history teachings and by the media in general.

It is surprising to most of the people in "The South" but nonetheless it has in the past been the case and very much current too.

Often republicanism is confused with sectarianism and it is not always the case.

Republicans as far as I know and I could stand to be corrected believe in a 32 county republic for all the inhabitants of the land disregarding their religion, etc

Sectarianism speaks for itself

Kadongy

Yeah sectarianism kinda discourages protestant republicanism. There are plenty of protestant republicans in the Republic of Ireland anyway, they just tend to be moderate in their views. I would think if every protestant in the Republic of Ireland was given a poll with two options regarding unification, more than half would give the republican answer.

If it wasn't for things like the IRA, the Real IRA, twats in the Republic of Ireland supporting those organisations, and sectarianist attitudes in Catholics in the Republic of Ireland, I think the result would be close to 100%.

MarchDub

The thread seems to be just drifting to people posting their opinions - it's the History forum so do you think we could get some source material on some of these claims? Otherwise they are of little value to the historic discussion.

odds_on

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

Just off the top of my head, weren't the following (and many more) Protestants also in favour of Catholic emancipation and home rule. Indeed some died fighting for Ireland. I'm not a historian, but maybe someone else can add to the list.


Wolfe Tone
Robert Emmet
Lord Edward Fitzgerald
Henry Grattan
Douglas Hyde
Erskine Childers

Beauchamp Bagenal Harvey (Barrister-at-law) of Bargy Castle, Co Wexford and his cousin John Boxwell of Sarshill, Co Wexford

Judgement Day

odds_on wrote: »

Beauchamp Bagenal Harvey (Barrister-at-law) of Bargy Castle, Co Wexford and his cousin John Boxwell of Sarshill, Co Wexford

I think this one is fairly open to debate as it's not clear why/how Bagenal Harvey became the rebel leader in the South East during 1798 - as it was, he was replaced after the Battle of New Ross. Lost his head too.

jonniebgood1

odds_on wrote: »

Beauchamp Bagenal Harvey (Barrister-at-law) of Bargy Castle, Co Wexford

As per earlier comments some background information or source material would help add interest to the thread rather than a list of names or opinions.

He resided at Bargy Castle, and when the insurgents took the field in May 1798, in the north of the county, Harvey, with his friends Colclough and FitzGerald, was immediately imprisoned in Wexford on suspicion. After the defeat of the royalists at the Three Rocks, Wexford was evacuated by the small garrison that remained, and the prisoners were on 30th May released by the inhabitants, who implored Harvey to intercede with the insurgents for the safety of the town. This he did; and upon its being occupied by the insurgents he was appointed Commander-in-chief.

A provisional government was established, and with the exception of the barbarous massacre of ninety-seven Protestants on the bridge, and the inevitable requisitions for provisions incidental to all military occupations, their lives and property were secured to the inhabitants. Nearly the whole of Wexford County was soon in the possession of the insurgents, frightful atrocities being committed on both sides, and it was necessary that New Ross should be taken, so as to open communication with those ready to rise in other counties. Accordingly, on 4th June, the Wexford force under Harvey marched out, and having been joined by a contingent from the camp at Carrickbyrne, they concentrated at Corbet Hill for the attack on New Ross. It is said that the evening before the battle was spent by Harvey and the insurgent officers in a carouse, from which they had scarcely recovered when the engagement began. At first the insurgents carried all before them, drove the troops from their intrenchments, through the town, and across the bridge into the County of Kilkenny.

Instead of following up their success, as regular troops would have done, they commenced drinking and pillaging; and when the royalists returned to the support of a brave party that still held the market-house, they were able to retrieve their losses, and the insurgents were slaughtered almost like sheep to the number perhaps of 2,500. After the engagement a straggling band of insurgents set fire to a barn at Scullaboge, containing 120 fugitives, in retaliation, it is said, for the previous burning of an insurgent hospital containing nearly 100 patients, by the troops at Enniscorthy. During the battle of Ross, Harvey and his aide-de-camp, Mr. Gray, a Protestant attorney, spent most of the day on a neighbouring hill, almost inactive spectators of the fight. In the retreat, on seeing the blackened walls of Scullaboge barn, he remarked to a friend: "I see now the folly of embarking in this business with these people: if I succeed, I shall be murdered by them; if they are defeated I shall be hanged."

After these events Mr. Harvey was deposed from the supreme command, and appointed president of the council of government. The battle of Vinegar Hill was lost by the insurgents on 21st June, and next day Wexford was re-occupied by the King's troops. http://www.libraryireland.com/biography/BagenalBeauchampHarvey.php