ragworth in silage

Tomjim · 11-10-2011 9:17pm #1

In one field of silage which I made there was some ragworth, not an awful lot but there was some in it all the same. I know this is not good.

I have sucklers and also some bucket reared calves. Is there any category more resistant than another category. Will I get away without any difficulties.

Anyone any experience

blue5000 · 11-10-2011 9:24pm

No experience, is it pit/chopped/baled? Reason I ask is if its bales they might not eat the ragwort. I do know it's the liver that processes the toxins, make sure fluke are sorted and copper levels, actually minerals in general are sorted at housing, just my 0.02 e worth

bbam · 11-10-2011 9:28pm

Not that I'd like to find out but isn't the toxin gone after a couple of weeks??
Read somewhere that after topping you need to keep cattle off for 4 weeks and then it's OK..

EGAR · 11-10-2011 9:37pm

http://www.teagasc.ie/horticulture/advisory/vegetable/ragwort.asp

Tomjim · 11-10-2011 9:54pm

its baled silage,

Joe the Plumber · 11-10-2011 9:58pm

Tomjim wrote: »

In one field of silage which I made there was some ragworth, not an awful lot but there was some in it all the same. I know this is not good.

I have sucklers and also some bucket reared calves. Is there any category more resistant than another category. Will I get away without any difficulties.

Anyone any experience

I bale my own silage and often seen some of it going into bales, never had a problem.

When it cures with the silage its harmless.

Took some silage from a neighbour last year and it was littered with ferns. thought the whole crop was usless.

Marked the bales and feed the first one to see what would happen. they gobbled it down perfect. no problems.

blue5000 · 11-10-2011 9:59pm

EGAR wrote: »

http://www.teagasc.ie/horticulture/advisory/vegetable/ragwort.asp

Thanks egar, thats my copper seen to anyway.

keep going · 11-10-2011 10:34pm

fella i know "bought" bales with ragworth in them and he fed them to fattening cattle.they were on so much ration any way and wouldnt be around long enough for toxins to build,so i was told anyway

greysides · 11-10-2011 11:28pm

http://www.sac.ac.uk/mainrep/pdfs/tn570ragwortpoisoning.pdf

whelan1 · 12-10-2011 5:31am

if you are feeding it feed to cattle that will be going to factory soon , ragworth causes a slow and painful death- lost 8 with it 2 years ago, bought in stock... cannot understand how people who know it is there dont pick it before the silage is baled ....

whelan1 · 12-10-2011 5:33am

Joe the Plumber wrote: »

I bale my own silage and often seen some of it going into bales, never had a problem.

When it cures with the silage its harmless
bull****

LostCovey · 12-10-2011 5:40am

Joe the Plumber wrote: »

When it cures with the silage its harmless.

Unfortunately this isn't true, there are loads of examples of poisoning from ragwort in silage. In fact silage is probably higher risk than either hay or grazing, because the bitter taste is disguised by silage acids.

It's a bit of a lottery if there isn't much ragwort in the pasture - it depends on how much each individual animal consumes.

Unfortunately it is a cumulative toxin, so each little bit adds up, hence the advice to feed it to dry stock that are going for early slaughter. Even then you can get caught out if one animal gets a few feeds with extra ragwort in it.

The other risk of cutting it in silage is mentioned in Greysides' linked document from the Scottish Ag Colleges, which is converting it from a biannual plant to a perrennial plant that will continue to grow year after year.

There's no easy answers with ragwort, unfortunately.

LostCovey

Joe the Plumber · 12-10-2011 6:46am

whelan1 wrote: »

Joe the Plumber wrote: »

I bale my own silage and often seen some of it going into bales, never had a problem.

When it cures with the silage its harmless
bull****

I have picked it, but your not going to get 100% of it. Have seen it going into bales, and also gave 10years baling silage on contract, seen it going into silage all over the place and regularly enquired if there where any problems. Never once.

My only experience of ragwort killing animals is if you cut it and leave it on the ground and if its eaten within a couple of weeks. deadly.

Giving my experience whelan1 not reading things out of books!!

whelan1 · 12-10-2011 6:56am

Joe the Plumber wrote: »

whelan1 wrote: »

My only experience of ragwort killing animals is if you cut it and leave it on the ground and if its eaten within a couple of weeks. deadly.

Giving my experience whelan1 not reading things out of books!!

well i am giving my experience of seeing 8 animals dying a slow and painful death due to the total laziness of someone else

pakalasa · 12-10-2011 7:20am

It's something to remember too when buying in silage bales. It's the kind of thing you'd never think of.

20silkcut · 12-10-2011 10:12am

Fair hard to see ragworth in a wrapped bale!!!!

Pay by cheque though to solve that problem.

F.D · 12-10-2011 10:34am

At what stage is it at its most noxious. when its a stalk with the yellow flower or at the rosette stage at ground level?
Reason i ask is you can always walk through a silage field spot the tall yellow ones and pull, but how many are missed that are below grass level or not visable?

The other risk of cutting it in silage is mentioned in Greysides' linked document from the Scottish Ag Colleges, which is converting it from a biannual plant to a perrennial plant that will continue to grow year after year.

This is very interesting, and i'd say its one reason why its getting out of hand every where from been topped/ cut etc, looks like chemical control is the only way forward

whelan1 · 12-10-2011 11:40am

its most noxious when it is dying as it becomes palatable, in a bale of silage or a silage pit it is preserved or "sweetened" so the animal eats it. In a bale of hay it just dies and they dont eat it...cattle will not eat ragworth as it stands in a field unless they are starving... the other time it is very dangerous is after spraying , animals MUST be left off for at least 10 days OR until all material is dead, when itis dying it is palatable

reps4 · 12-10-2011 8:14pm

hi,

so what constitutes a dangerous amount?

i had about 30 single stems in approx half acre that i marked out for contractor to avoid.

his 'brightest' worker was on the mower that day and cut full field. it then got raked into 30 ft rows so iv 12 bales aside that contain this amount.

1 bale will be going to 20 suckers.

do ye still consider this a dangerous amount?

is it safe for any animals, would sell-give them away at cost if so

whelan1 · 12-10-2011 8:22pm

in an article i read it said 3kg can cause damage , but if you know it is in these bales feed it to cattle that will be going to the factory soon...

LostCovey · 13-10-2011 12:05am

Joe the Plumber wrote: »

whelan1 wrote: »

I have picked it, but your not going to get 100% of it. Have seen it going into bales, and also gave 10years baling silage on contract, seen it going into silage all over the place and regularly enquired if there where any problems. Never once.

My only experience of ragwort killing animals is if you cut it and leave it on the ground and if its eaten within a couple of weeks. deadly.

Giving my experience whelan1 not reading things out of books!!

Look if you are arguing that ragwort in silage isn't harmful, there is little point in arguing with you.

There's so many people with evidence to the contrary.

Asking how much is safe is really like asking how many cigarettes a day is safe. It's not a perfect example but it makes the point that its a lottery.

Thed more ragwort in the field, the more they get, and the more years they eat it fthe greater the chance it will kill them.

But there are plenty of cattle walking round with some liver damage, maybe producing less milk or putting on less weight.

The ones that die are the tip of the iceberg.

LostCovey

whelan1 · 13-10-2011 5:36am

i suppose i am one of the unlucky ones that got caught out- by someones elses mistake- but how are you to know what an animal has ate in the months prior to purchase ? same can be said for buying in bales of silage , how do you know? do you take the persons word for it. Would any one on here ask a seller "did you feed ragworth to your cattle recently " when looking at stock, i dont think so , i certainly dont think they will say yes

pakalasa · 13-10-2011 7:00am

Joe the Plumber wrote: »

......When it cures with the silage its harmless........

http://www.teagasc.ie/horticulture/advisory/vegetable/ragwort.asp

From the above Link;

Poisoning
Ragwort is a highly poisonous plant if eaten. Ragwort is toxic to cattle, horses, deer, goats, pigs and chickens. Sheep are less affected by it but some trials would suggest lower thrive due to eating ragwort The poisonous substances in ragwort are toxic alkaloids (Jacobine, Jacodine and Jaconine). These cause the liver to accumulate copper, causing ill heath and death. On good pastures livestock avoid eating ragwort, as it is unpalatable, but where there is over-stocking and grass is scarce the weed is unavoidably eaten. The poisonous material contained in ragwort is not destroyed by drying. Hay containing ragwort is particularly dangerous. Grass silage containing ragwort is also a serious source of poisoning.

LostCovey · 13-10-2011 8:04am

whelan1 wrote: »

i suppose i am one of the unlucky ones that got caught out- by someones elses mistake- but how are you to know what an animal has ate in the months prior to purchase ? same can be said for buying in bales of silage , how do you know? do you take the persons word for it. Would any one on here ask a seller "did you feed ragworth to your cattle recently " when looking at stock, i dont think so , i certainly dont think they will say yes

This is totally true.

However this is only one of a million reasons why our mart system is bonkers, churning livestock through different herds like they were Quinn shares.

I am in danger of going off topic here, but think about it: some Irish animals die with a final value of a grand or so having been through have a dozen marts, with more spent in its lifetime on private testing, haulage and mart fees than feed.

Look at the mart stamps on a typical card - this is an ingrained cultural thing, but it is not economic activity!

Its not just because of ragwort that our Irish approach to biosecurity, closed herds and buying is totally off the wall.

Ragwort is one more reason to buy as little livestock as you possibly can, except in straws.

Other countries can get by with no marts you know!

LostCovey

LostCovey · 13-10-2011 8:09am

F.D wrote: »

At what stage is it at its most noxious. when its a stalk with the yellow flower or at the rosette stage at ground level?
Reason i ask is you can always walk through a silage field spot the tall yellow ones and pull, but how many are missed that are below grass level or not visable?

Every bit of it is poisonous - leaf, stem, flower, root.

The rosette in year 1 is the most dangerous because it is the hardest for animals to avoid.

People who say cattle will avoid it are talking about the big second year plant with the fibrous stems and yellow flowers.

The first year plant does not even look like ragwort, and people with acres of it don't know what it looks like.

LC

bb12 · 13-10-2011 12:27pm

as a horse owner, ragwort is a particular hate of mine. i only buy hay from fields i've inspected before being cut to ensure no ragwort. it's a horrible horrible weed and the toxins build up in the liver over years. Milk thistle helps with badly affected animals but why people don't manage ragwort is beyond me. whenever i saw the yellow flowers in farmers fields, i find it completely disgusting and a sign of very bad management. unfortunately it seems to be spreading more and more every year.

djmc · 13-10-2011 1:49pm

IMO dump the silage and buy bales
They will be very dear bales if they kill all your cattle and it will be too late when
they start droping off
Its not worth the risk

whelan1 · 13-10-2011 2:12pm

djmc wrote: »

IMO dump the silage and buy bales
They will be very dear bales if they kill all your cattle and it will be too late when
they start droping off
Its not worth the risk

but how do you know that the bales you are buying are not the same as your own?

Joe the Plumber · 13-10-2011 3:47pm

Strong opinions on this one....:pac:....

Sheep kill it AFAIK.

djmc · 13-10-2011 6:50pm

whelan1 wrote: »

but how do you know that the bales you are buying are not the same as your own?

You dont but its better than feeding them bales that you know contains ragworth and you might have some comeback if you can prove the bales you brought killed cattle.

whelan1 · 13-10-2011 7:53pm

djmc wrote: »

You dont but its better than feeding them bales that you know contains ragworth and you might have some comeback if you can prove the bales you brought killed cattle.

how can you prove it?

The Big Fella · 13-10-2011 8:58pm

Whats the best way of eradicating ragwort? Is it really just pull at the roots?

doctor evil · 13-10-2011 8:59pm

The Big Fella wrote: »

Whats the best way of eradicating ragwort? Is it really just pull at the roots?

Make sure you wear gloves if you pull them up. I heard that sheep can eat Ragwort in the rosetta stage (first year)

Bizzum · 13-10-2011 9:07pm

Joe the Plumber wrote: »

Sheep kill it AFAIK.

My understanding on this was that sheep graze upon it over the winter/spring exposing the plant to rain and frost damage in the spring, thus killing the plant.

Sheep seem to tolerate it but maybe the fact that they can have shortish lifecycle helps too?

1chippy · 13-10-2011 9:16pm

we used to have a lot of it. bought ten sheep and they seemed to clean it up. but we also did start farming a little better such as liming fields and topping more regular.
As far as i know the ragworth is safe enough in hay as it goes bitter and the animals wont eat it. however in silage when it is fermenting it sweetens the grass around it and then becomes the issue as the animals cant distinguish it. only hear say so may be wrong but i wouldnt like to chance feeding it. How would you deal if you lost eight animals?

greysides · 13-10-2011 10:10pm

1chippy wrote: »

As far as i know the ragworth is safe enough in hay as it goes bitter and the animals wont eat it.

This is a quote from EGARs link:

The poisonous material contained in ragwort is not destroyed by drying. Hay containing ragwort is particularly dangerous. Grass silage containing ragwort is also a serious source of poisoning. Cases of poisoning occurring in late winter and spring often result from the feeding for some months previously of hay or silage cut from ragwort infested swards.

The SAC link says that wilting increases the soluble sugars in the foliage, particularly so where a herbicide is used. (This overcomes the bitter taste of the alkaloids.) Thus it is dangerous in hay.

It also says that the toxins diffuse out from the plant to spread throughout the clamp so removing a layer containing ragwort does not remove the danger.

It further states that a single plant in a bale is enough to poison livestock. It puts the poisonous dosage for cattle at about 3 Kg of fresh plant material.

On a lexiconic note, the plant is a 'wort', like Liverwort and Milkwort, rather than a 'worth'. It's not even worth a 'rag'.

vincenzolorenzo · 14-10-2011 8:28am

reps4 wrote: »

hi,

so what constitutes a dangerous amount?

i had about 30 single stems in approx half acre that i marked out for contractor to avoid.

his 'brightest' worker was on the mower that day and cut full field. it then got raked into 30 ft rows so iv 12 bales aside that contain this amount.

1 bale will be going to 20 suckers.

do ye still consider this a dangerous amount?

is it safe for any animals, would sell-give them away at cost if so

Ah thats ridiculous. If there was only 30 stalks on a half acre then why did you not just round and pull them? Asking someone to avoid all of them with a mower is madness

whelan1 · 14-10-2011 8:30am

vincenzolorenzo wrote: »

Ah thats ridiculous. If there was only 30 stalks on a half acre then why did you not just round and pull them? Asking someone to avoid all of them with a mower is madness

that was my thoughts too.... but as my dad says "its great to have some one to blame" tbh if there was only 30 of then 10 minutes would pull them , but then some people dont have 10 minutes to spare:rolleyes:

pakalasa · 14-10-2011 9:19am

Pull the ragwort (with glooves) when the yellow flower appears. The stalk is usually strong enough then to pull clean out of the ground.
A small thing but, wait till the ground is very soft from rain. Not a long wait around my part of the country.:D No bother pull it then.

Anyone know B&Q in Limerick. Well across the road from that, there is a big field. Must take a pic the next time I pass. The best crop of Ragwort I've ever seen.

Min · 14-10-2011 11:29am

The best thing is for people to check their fields and to spray them for ragwort if they see it present, it does a top job in controlling it.

I pull some ragwort every year, but you can't beat the spray.

Min · 14-10-2011 11:32am

pakalasa wrote: »

Pull the ragwort (with glooves) when the yellow flower appears. The stalk is usually strong enough then to pull clean out of the ground.
A small thing but, wait till the ground is very soft from rain. Not a long wait around my part of the country.:D No bother pull it then.

Anyone know B&Q in Limerick. Well across the road from that, there is a big field. Must take a pic the next time I pass. The best crop of Ragwort I've ever seen.

It always seems to be around urban locations that one can find great crops of ragwort.

blue5000 · 14-10-2011 12:27pm

Min wrote: »

It always seems to be around urban locations that one can find great crops of ragwort.

+ New motorways and railway tracks, and any bit of land owned by councils.

LostCovey · 14-10-2011 2:59pm

Joe the Plumber wrote: »

Strong opinions on this one....:pac:....

Sheep kill it AFAIK.

......well they kill it if they eat it.

But if they eat enough of it, it kills them too!

LC

reps4 · 14-10-2011 6:51pm

vincenzolorenzo wrote: »

Ah thats ridiculous. If there was only 30 stalks on a half acre then why did you not just round and pull them? Asking someone to avoid all of them with a mower is madness

its a 7 acre that was reclaimed so i go around edge with my own mower to mark out what contractor is safe to cut inside. instead of pulling the weeds,i cut out the corner of field that had them and in theroy he should not have gone outside this. i would then have had time pull at my leisure once the bales were in.

the madness is thinking somebody would be expected cut around 30 weed stalks woth a mower:)

caseman · 19-05-2013 1:16pm

ANy one know how long you need to leave silage haversting after spraying for ragworth.

mathepac · 19-05-2013 1:33pm

Joe the Plumber wrote: »

.... Sheep kill it AFAIK.

Unfortunately not - http://www.teagasc.ie/horticulture/advisory/vegetable/noxious-weeds.asp

Is the Noxious Weeds Act on the books anymore or is it, like a lot of other legislation, just not enforced?

whelan1 · 24-05-2013 8:15pm

caseman wrote: »

ANy one know how long you need to leave silage haversting after spraying for ragworth.

not sure but was talking to someone tonight who knows a lad who lost 10 heifers recently from ragworth posioning in silage that was sprayed:eek: ispca and dept where invovled before they discovered what it was

ragworth in silage

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