Overcoming predudice against atheism

Grants fairy

I had an awful experience today in work. Work colleagues, some of whom were senior managers, had a atheist bashing session. I was horrified. I am an atheist and proud, but I would never belittle someone elses belief systems. Nobody at the meeting knew I am atheist ( not that it matters), and I had to sit there, going redder and redder and feeling sicker and sicker. Some of the stuff they said was unreal. It was so upsetting for me. I felt I couldnt say anything as
1) I dont discuss my beliefs with work colleagues
2) I didnt want to embarass my boss

Has anyone else had a similar experience? If so, how did you handle it?

MrPudding

Grants fairy wrote: »

I had an awful experience today in work. Work colleagues, some of whom were senior managers, had a atheist bashing session. I was horrified. I am an atheist and proud, but I would never belittle someone elses belief systems. Nobody at the meeting knew I am atheist ( not that it matters), and I had to sit there, going redder and redder and feeling sicker and sicker. Some of the stuff they said was unreal. It was so upsetting for me. I felt I couldnt say anything as
1) I dont discuss my beliefs with work colleagues
2) I didnt want to embarass my boss

Has anyone else had a similar experience? If so, how did you handle it?

Can you give some details?

MrP

Turtwig

Get a job in science.:D

*Grabs coat and runs*

UDP

Grants fairy wrote: »

1) I dont discuss my beliefs with work colleagues
2) I didnt want to embarass my boss

How did they know you are an atheist?

Roger Hassenforder

Hi Grants Fairy
can you imagine the furore there would be if it was Islam or Jewdaism that was discussed in this manner, none of which is acceptable in our society and should not be tolerated.

this is bullying clear and simple. everyone is entitled to dignity at work on several grounds, religon (or lack of one) being one.

http://www.hsa.ie/eng/Workplace_Health/Bullying_at_Work/Bullying_-_Employee_Perspective/

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/equality_in_work/bullying_in_the_workplace.html

what you do, and how reolved will depend on your organization.
Have you a bullying policy? Dignity at work policy?

Your sketchy on details, but I'd approach you line manager and tell them how you felt, and that it should stop. Leave it with him/her a while to see if anything happens. After that, if nothing is done your next action might affect your future tenure, might result in you taking a constructive dismissal case.
Have you a trade union? might be worth chatting with your local rep.

In the meantime, make a note of when it happened, what the meeting was for, who was there, what was said, was there any effort by senior managemment to reign it in. How you felt.

MagicMarker

Oh man I'd love if some little numpty went off on one against atheists where I work, it would make my day so much more interesting!

Anyway OP, sounds like discrimination in the workplace, speak to a solicitor. :pac:

UDP

UDP wrote: »

How did they know you are an atheist?

Grants fairy wrote: »

Nobody at the meeting knew I am atheist

.

Coriolanus

I have to say I'd probably relish the situation. I'm still at the "combative" stage of my atheistic development.

UDP

bluewolf wrote: »

.

just spotted that there.

I have had heated discussions with my cultural catholic boss in front of other staff in the canten. Stood my ground against his claims that a person needs religion to know good from bad and that the catholic church doesn't affect non-catholics so they should be just let be. Only difference is that I could have a debate like that without either taking it personally.

liamw

I'm annoyed I wasn't there

Grants fairy

General guffawing and laughing. Comments like " who do they think they are", "they think they are just a bunch of electrons". But it wasnt so much the comments in as much as the way they said them. It occured to me later that if you took what they said, and substituted "jew" or "muslim" for atheist, it would not be tolerated.

MagicMarker

Grants fairy wrote: »

" who do they think they are", "they think they are just a bunch of electrons".

Well, not just electrons.

Idiots.

Roger Hassenforder

sorry, jumped on my high horse called indignation there without realising you werent looking for advice!

if your (lack of) beliefs were known, i dont think this would have happened (thats not to condone it for a second). I work with a fairly conservative group, most of whom would be regular mass goers, but they dont draw me on them after some epic 'discussions', even though they out outnumber me. You might have embarrassed your boss, but its worse to let him think it was acceptable.

Grants fairy

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Hi Grants Fairy
can you imagine the furore there would be if it was Islam or Jewdaism that was discussed in this manner, none of which is acceptable in our society and should not be tolerated.

this is bullying clear and simple. everyone is entitled to dignity at work on several grounds, religon (or lack of one) being one.

http://www.hsa.ie/eng/Workplace_Health/Bullying_at_Work/Bullying_-_Employee_Perspective/

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/equality_in_work/bullying_in_the_workplace.html

what you do, and how reolved will depend on your organization.
Have you a bullying policy? Dignity at work policy?

Your sketchy on details, but I'd approach you line manager and tell them how you felt, and that it should stop. Leave it with him/her a while to see if anything happens. After that, if nothing is done your next action might affect your future tenure, might result in you taking a constructive dismissal case.
Have you a trade union? might be worth chatting with your local rep.

In the meantime, make a note of when it happened, what the meeting was for, who was there, what was said, was there any effort by senior managemment to reign it in. How you felt.

Thanks for advice. Will make meeting note tomoro and speak with line manager. Christians are sure nice, tolerant folk!

Grants fairy

Thanks for all the great supportive comments. Much appreciated

magicbastarder

mind me asking if there's much of a gap in age or (job) seniority in your workplace?

thankfully for me, the sense of humour is fairly robust where i work and everyone gives as good as they get, but that's a bunch of lads who have known each other for ten years.

Daftendirekt

Sounds like you work with some right arseholes. Given that there were senior management staff involved, I'd definitely report it. As other posters have said, this wouldn't be tolerated if they'd gone on a Muslim, Catholic or Jew bashing session, so there's no reason you should put up with it. Totally inappropriate in the workplace.

Hey, if you kick up a fuss, this might even make it into the Independent, and then we can have another thread discussing the ensuing public hysteria!

Also...

"they think they are just a bunch of electrons"

Somebody give that hero a Nobel F*cking Prize :rolleyes:

The Quadratic Equation

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Hi Grants Fairy
can you imagine the furore there would be if it was Islam or Jewdaism that was discussed in this manner, none of which is acceptable in our society and should not be tolerated.

this is bullying clear and simple. everyone is entitled to dignity at work on several grounds, religon (or lack of one) being one.

http://www.hsa.ie/eng/Workplace_Health/Bullying_at_Work/Bullying_-_Employee_Perspective/

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/equality_in_work/bullying_in_the_workplace.html

what you do, and how reolved will depend on your organization.
Have you a bullying policy? Dignity at work policy?

Your sketchy on details, but I'd approach you line manager and tell them how you felt, and that it should stop. Leave it with him/her a while to see if anything happens. After that, if nothing is done your next action might affect your future tenure, might result in you taking a constructive dismissal case.
Have you a trade union? might be worth chatting with your local rep.

In the meantime, make a note of when it happened, what the meeting was for, who was there, what was said, was there any effort by senior managemment to reign it in. How you felt.

Nice one.

Speak to a solicitor, I'd say you could take them to the cleaners.

You should at least get a few promotions out of it.

magicbastarder

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

Speak to a solicitor, I'd say you could take them to the cleaners.

over a single incident?
a solicitor wouldn't touch a single incident.

and you don't want to become someone known to go legal after one incident. ireland is a small place.

Dades

Unless it becomes a habit, I'd take the moral highground and ignore it.

Roger Hassenforder

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

Nice one.

Speak to a solicitor, I'd say you could take them to the cleaners.

You should at least get a few promotions out of it.

thud

Galvasean

Dades wrote: »

Unless it becomes a habit, I'd take the moral highground and ignore it.

I certainly would not ignore it. Why should he/she? As has been said it would be unacceptable to ridicule Jews or Muslims in such a way. To put it simply, we as non believers do not have to put up with this horse crap in the 21st Century.

That said I would not suggest running to the lawyers either. Talking to a manager about the situation and explain to them how it made you feel would be a better solution IMO. How the management reacts is vital. I'd be very happy with a simple apology in private. Who knows? Perhaps them realising one of their co-workers is an atheist might change their opinions on the matter.
If they tell you to 'eff off or suck it up THEN you take them to the cleaners :P

Dades

Unless the OP fancies a protracted, controversial (and public if the press got wind of it) employment law case, then I'd imagine he'd like not to compromise his position in work.

If this is a once-off, I wouldn't recommend "blowing your cover" and marking yourself out as anything but a team player. Not ideal, but these days having a job and a career is better than making a stand and either alienating yourself or getting embroiled in some legal battle and making yourself unemployable afterwards.

That said, if it became a habit, then a quiet word would be prudent.

Turtwig

100% agree with Dades, there is still a very much traditional generation alive in Ireland and words spread fast. Many people don't take too warmly to this highly open tolerant liberal society. She see it as the world going down the gutter or whatever. It's not worth kicking up the fuss unless it becomes a frequent occurrence. Especially when so many Irish people I know feel that Catholics are being ostracised while everyone else is being bent over backwards for.:(

Galvasean

So wait, we just bend over backwards because the Catholics think they are getting a hard time even when in this case they are clearly the ones doing the... ah never mind.

edit: aw shucks, I dunno. Maybe I'm just sick and tired of non-believers having to put up and shut up while everyone else is expected to stick up for themselves when people diss their beliefs in public.
Nobody puts atheist in the corner!

Dades

^^ Somebody's feisty this evening!

magicbastarder

Galvasean wrote: »

I certainly would not ignore it.

so far, it's a single incident. when we ask catholics to man up over criticism of their religion, we can hardly expect atheists to go straight into tribunal mode over some workplace banter.

Galvasean

magicbastarder wrote: »

so far, it's a single incident. when we ask catholics to man up over criticism of their religion, we can hardly expect atheists to go straight into tribunal mode over some workplace banter.

I didn't say they should. I suggested a private word with a member of management.

Galvasean

Dades wrote: »

^^ Somebody's feisty this evening!

OUTSIDE NOW

I wish to discuss my feelings

robindch

Grants fairy wrote: »

I would never belittle someone elses belief systems.

Belittling belief systems?

Happens all the time here on A+A, where the general policy is that you can say what you like about the belief system, but you must respect the right of people to believe whatever they want to. Whether you think it's crap on stilts or not.

A lot of -- most? -- religious people can't tell the difference between the two and falsely assume that slagging off the belief system equates to slagging off the believer (only true if the believer is the belief system, which, short of Mohammad, Buddha and Jesus, most people aren't).

robindch

Galvasean wrote: »

I wish to discuss my feelings

After Hours is here.

Galvasean

robindch wrote: »

After Hours is here.

Too much bad spelling for my liking.

robindch

robindch wrote: »

Belittling belief systems?

Happens all the time here on A+A, where the general policy is that you can say what you like about the belief system, but you must respect the right of people to believe whatever they want to. Whether you think it's crap on stilts or not.

A lot of -- most? -- religious people can't tell the difference between the two and falsely assume that slagging off the belief system equates to slagging off the believer (only true if the believer is the belief system, which, short of Mohammad, Buddha and Jesus, most people aren't).

Now robin, everyone is a buddha :pac:

Newaglish

robindch wrote: »

Belittling belief systems?

Happens all the time here on A+A, where the general policy is that you can say what you like about the belief system, but you must respect the right of people to believe whatever they want to. Whether you think it's crap on stilts or not.

A lot of -- most? -- religious people can't tell the difference between the two and falsely assume that slagging off the belief system equates to slagging off the believer (only true if the believer is the belief system, which, short of Mohammad, Buddha and Jesus, most people aren't).

It might be OK in A&A but I wouldn't think it's overly appropriate in the workplace, particularly if you're in a senior position to others.

seamus

Speak up for yourself, "You are all aware that I'm an atheist?"

Listen for the pin drop and the awkward shuffling and coughing.

If someone is dumb enough to ask you questions about it, just ignore them and address the room saying, "Can we talk about work now?"

Atheism in Ireland is still at the stage where the black civil rights movement was in the 1940's. "Equality" was provided begrudgingly to the blacks, but behind closed doors the majority still told black jokes and considered them to be a subspecies only worthy of contempt. It was OK to openly mock black people, but if a black person had the audacity to criticise or mock a white person, there'd be uproar.

Edit: Note that I'm not trying to claim that atheists face an equal level of oppression or hatred that black people did. The scales are incomparable. However the two issues bear some resemblences in terms of social attitudes and overall patterns.

smokingman

I'm surrounded by "ones and zeros" types in work and can thankfully be free to express my lack of belief in magic 'til the cows come home.

We did have a head of IT come in a few months back that was a devout christian (don't know which faction) but he annoyed the pants off us when we had working lunches and he'd sit there in silent prayer just before having a sambo for a few minutes. Cue all of us looking around awkward and trying to act like it was perfectly natural for something like that to happen in modern day Ireland.

He's gone now though, he was a right abrasive cnut. :pac:

Penn

I pretty much just stayed silent about it for years. Then when this years Census came, I had to make sure it was marked No Religion.

Since then I've been jokingly told I'm going to Hell, always asked "Oh, are you not going to Mass this weekend?" even though I hadn't really been in about 5 years anyway, asked if I'm going to become a Muslim (don't know why, was just told that as I had recently grown a beard and renounced my religion, they thought I might be becoming a Muslim).

It's all calmed down now. Last time it was mentioned was when my sister said they might ask me to be godfather to their next child and would I be comfortable doing so etc. She laughed when I asked if she wanted me to just be godfather or be responsible for ensuring the Christian upbringing of the child, and we've agreed that after the baptism, I am to be referred to as Superuncle rather than godfather.

But yeah, bar some friends and close family, it still feels like it's somehow a secret. Then again, it's something which doesn't often come up in conversation and I don't want to tell people about it just for the sake of telling them. At this stage though, with the exception of my grandparents, I'd be comfortable telling anyone.

robindch

Newaglish wrote: »

It might be OK in A&A but I wouldn't think it's overly appropriate in the workplace, particularly if you're in a senior position to others.

Politics + religion are best left at the door of any professional workplace.

Though you'll find that plenty of religious people think that they're being "persecuted" when somebody asks them to avoid religion.

Penn wrote: »

I am to be referred to as Superuncle rather than godfather.

After a spell of "dogfather", our family finally agreed on "goodfather"

Daftendirekt

Penn wrote: »

She laughed when I asked if she wanted me to just be godfather or be responsible for ensuring the Christian upbringing of the child, and we've agreed that after the baptism, I am to be referred to as Superuncle rather than godfather.

Superuncle

Love it.

Penn

robindch wrote: »

After a spell of "dogfather", our family finally agreed on "goodfather"

magicbastarder

robindch wrote: »

Politics + religion are best left at the door of any professional workplace.

well, it depends on your colleagues and how well you know them. we have very robust debates over coffee in here about politics, and i get slagged for being a heathen. the protestant on the team is called 'the hun'. and we all get on better for it.

though that's a stable team who have known each other for years, which is probably not typical.

Penn

magicbastarder wrote: »

well, it depends on your colleagues and how well you know them. we have very robust debates over coffee in here about politics, and i get slagged for being a heathen. the protestant on the team is called 'the hun'. and we all get on better for it.

though that's a stable team who have known each other for years, which is probably not typical.

My workmate slags me for being an atheist but only because I actively post here and says that because I take an interest in atheist things, atheism is like a religion to me. Just taking the p*ss though. Any excuse.

On the other hand, my boss is very religious, despite the fact he'd steal anything that wasn't nailed down. He knows I'm not really religious (as in, don't go to mass) but probably doesn't know I'm atheist. I'd have no problem saying it to him, but the only time it's really come up is when he's talking about his deceased father (which is when he became religious as says he didn't really care before that). Saying something like "Please God I'll see him again in the next life" or something like that. Probably not the best time to proclaim "Ah, that's all horsesh*t"

Dades

^^ I've just realised you're Barrington in disguise!

Penn

Dades wrote: »

^^ I've just realised you're Barrington in disguise!

And I would have gotten away with it if it wasn't for you pesky mods....

Yahew

What exact belief system of an atheist can be mocked exactly? And why would an atheist care? Does anybody even know what was said?

Galvasean

Penn wrote: »

But yeah, bar some friends and close family, it still feels like it's somehow a secret. Then again, it's something which doesn't often come up in conversation and I don't want to tell people about it just for the sake of telling them.

You'd be surprised how rarely it does come up. I recall being out drinking (always with the drinking) with a friend of mine and a friend of his. Somehow the talk of religion/God came about (as it does when alcohol is involved - the holy spirit perhaps?). Both went on to say they were agnostics and the question was posed to me (interrupting my tipsy bopping along to Meatloaf's "Anything For Love"). I said I was an atheist.
Suddenly my friend's friend got really annoyed with me. Called me arrogant, 'just as bad as religious people' etc. and that I couldn't know. I had to explain to him that atheism and agnosticism are not mutually exclusive. Sure enough after a bit of back n' forth he saw my line of thinking and admitted he was probably an agnostic atheist too.
Just goes to show that the word 'atheist' does have a negative stigma attached to it, even among those who aren't religious.
Incidentally, my friend commented that after two years of knowing and working with me this was the first time he had heard me say I was an atheist. I guess it just doesn't come up too often..

yeppydeppy

I reckon this is a troll.

Penn

yeppydeppy wrote: »

I reckon this is a troll.

I dunno. Either way, it is an interesting discussion. I have had conversations with one of my sisters where she basically just goes "So you just believe in... like... nothing?"

Being an atheist in a predominantly Catholic (even a la carte Catholic) country means you are in a minority, and some people react strangely to that.

swampgas

Penn wrote: »

I dunno. Either way, it is an interesting discussion. I have had conversations with one of my sisters where she basically just goes "So you just believe in... like... nothing?"

Being an atheist in a predominantly Catholic (even a la carte Catholic) country means you are in a minority, and some people react strangely to that.

I tend to agree. Most atheists in Ireland have tended to keep quiet about it, so people are all the more surprised when they find out. Especially if the atheist is the "play along with the religious rituals" type, i.e. got married in church, had the kids christened, etc ...

Nothing like finding out someone you assumed believed the same things you did actually believes something quite different to challenge your own beliefs.

Mark Hamill

Grants fairy wrote: »

General guffawing and laughing. Comments like " who do they think they are", "they think they are just a bunch of electrons". But it wasnt so much the comments in as much as the way they said them. It occured to me later that if you took what they said, and substituted "jew" or "muslim" for atheist, it would not be tolerated.

IMO, you have two options (besides ignoring them).
1) Make jokes back at them. Say something like "Christians eh, and who do they think they are? According to christianity, men are golems and women are spare ribs" etc.
2). Critically analyze their generalizations. Eg "They think they are a bunch of electrons? Where did you hear that?" "Whats your alternative?" How much evidence is there for electrons (or whatever they admit that atheists think we are) vs evidence for what they think?.

I would be reluctant doing any complaining. People should be able to give as well as they get if they just want to make jokes without malice, and they should be open to discussion if they are serious about what they are saying.

UDP

Mark Hamill wrote: »

IMO, you have two options (besides ignoring them).
1) Make jokes back at them. Say something like "Christians eh, and who do they think they are? According to christianity, men are golems and women are spare ribs" etc.

I can imagine how that would go. Suddenly there would be silence followed by claims that the OP was being rude. Then there would be disciplinary action against the OP for intolerance and disrepect of people's religious beliefs followed by an article in the local paper reporting how an atheist attacked a co-worker's religious beliefs in the workplace and how there is an epidemic rise in atheism from people who are jumping on board just because it is fashionable.