Dodgy diesel article IT Saturday

E39MSport

Had a quick scan of the threads since sat and couldn't see it posted.

Of interest "Motorists are increasingly complaining of mysterious engine failure in relatively new cars, and car dealers report that, when inspections are carried out, dirty fuel is often at fault.
Michael Courtney of Diesel Engineering Services, in Cavan, says that of the vehicles he encounters with such problems, 60 to 70 per cent are caused by contaminated fuel."

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2011/1008/1224305442959.html

Now we're suckin' illegal diesel
MICHAEL McALEER, Motoring Editor
Sat, Oct 08, 2011

DIESEL IS an increasingly popular fuel among Irish motorists. But this new-found fondness at the pump is coming at a price that, in some cases, involves criminal gangs and potentially expensive engine repairs.
In 2007, 21 per cent of the new cars sold were diesels. This year that figure is 71 per cent. Diesel engines emit less carbon dioxide and, since July 2008, new cars qualify for lower tax. The annual tax savings can be several hundred euro.
The fuel bill is lower, too, and consumers are increasingly motivated by price. Diesel costs approximately 8c less per litre than petrol, depending on the station. According to AA Ireland, for an average diesel car doing just over 19,000km a year and achieving about 5.8L/100km, the typical monthly fuel bill can be more than €130. So when someone offers diesel at, say, another 10 cents a litre less than the average price, the saving is tempting.
This growing market is attractive to illicit operators. Agricultural diesel carries low rates of tax and duty. To indicate the difference, a dye is added, once red but now green. This fuel is meant for agricultural and industrial use, not for everyday vehicles. There are big profits to be made by washing out the dye in illegal laundering plants and selling the agricultural fuel at below-market prices.
A recent report by the Irish Petrol Retail Association claims that up to 12 per cent of the diesel sold on Irish forecourts is “washed”, or laundered, agricultural diesel, sold at more than 120 stations across the State.
The scale of the operations is significant, to judge by recent raids on such plants by customs officials. This week, customs officers supported by armed gardaí raided a commercial premises in Glaslough, Co Monaghan. They found an underground tank that was being used to remove the green dye from up to 40,000 litres of agricultural diesel a day. The facility was using a bleaching agent to wash out the dye.
David Bleving of the Irish Petrol Retail Association estimates the loss in tax revenue at €150 million a year, a significant portion of which goes into the hands of the gangs. The number of raids by customs gives a sense of the scale of the laundering operations in Ireland. Between 2005 and 2010, nine sizeable plants were uncovered; this year customs have already uncovered that number of illegal sites.
There’s a perception that diesel laundering is concentrated in quiet rural areas of the Border counties, but given that the illegal diesel has been found as far south as Cork and Kerry – and given that the criminals involved prefer not to transport the fuel in tankers for long distances for fear of getting caught – the problem could be nationwide. Last month raids found laundered diesel on sale at service stations in Roscommon, Galway, Offaly and Dublin.
With more than 1,000 forecourts in the State, the Irish Petrol Retail Association’s estimates of 120 selling laundered diesel would indicate that the vast majority of operators don’t participate in this scam. Yet for some there is the temptation of taking a load of illegal diesel at a discounted price. According to Seán Kelleher, a customs enforcement manager, the gangs involved are also moving into direct retail sales themselves, in what have become known as pop-up stations.
Meanwhile some seemingly legitimate stations have taken occasional delivery of illicit fuel and mixed it with their regular supply in an attempt to conceal it from customs inspections.
The cost of the illicit trade in laundered diesel is not only a drop in tax revenues. The washed diesel can seriously damage a vehicle’s engine.
“Acid is used to remove the dye, and it is put through charcoal and in some cases even kitty litter,” according to Martin Boylan of Independent Laboratory, who recently explained the effects to The Irish Times . “The fuel can retain more water and can be filled with slime.”
Motorists are increasingly complaining of mysterious engine failure in relatively new cars, and car dealers report that, when inspections are carried out, dirty fuel is often at fault.
Michael Courtney of Diesel Engineering Services, in Cavan, says that of the vehicles he encounters with such problems, 60 to 70 per cent are caused by contaminated fuel. Telltale signs are that a vehicle is hard to start, lacks power or comes to a halt on the road. The repair bill can range from €2,500 to €15,000 for a complete engine replacement.
What to do about dodgy diesel?
How can motorists ensure they’re not filling their cars with damaging laundered fuel? Motorists need to be aware of the risks. It’s important to shop around, says Conor Faughnan of the Automobile Association, but “you have to use common sense. Be realistic about prices and go to reputable sources. The problem is that there are situations where laundered diesel is being sold at a competitive price but not an unrealistic price, and sold through outlets that have every appearance of being highly respectable, so it’s really difficult for the motorist to know.”
One way to ensure a secure supply is to identify a well-priced, reputable station and use it consistently. That way if there are engine problems caused by dirty fuel the source can be more easily determined.
Are there ways to combat the dodgy diesel trade?
David Bleving of the Irish Petrol Retail Association suggests more complex chemical markers or dye might be used in agricultural diesel to help differentiate between regular and laundered diesel.
Conor Faughnan suggests full duty charges could be applied to green diesel, with a rebate system operated after purchase.
However, there are concerns that the criminals may find ways around any new markers. As for a system where the duty could be reclaimed by farmers and businesses after purchase, officials warn such a scheme would create huge admin costs. (The current marker system was introduced in the 1950s because of abuses of a previous reclaim system.)
© 2011 The Irish Times

mike65

There is an advert running on national radio atm for a brand of fuel and it alludes to the fact not all diesel fuel can be trusted.

Atomic Pineapple

I haven't bought any fuel at a non branded station for years because of this, being from the border area it's obviously rife in non branded garages in the area and customs have hit a few already.Also, I know personally 3 people who have had big repair bills because of dodgy fuel.

EPM

The average diesel car is doing close on 49mpg according to the AA.

Ahem.

Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

EPM

EPM wrote: »

The average diesel car is doing close on 49mpg according to the AA.

Ahem.

Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

I knocked close to that out of a 2005 2.0 lx Mondeo over 25k miles, the more modern, smaller diesel engines would no doubt return better I'd say

EPM

RoverJames wrote: »

I knocked close to that out of a 2005 2.0 lx Mondeo over 25k miles, the more modern, smaller diesel engines would be doubt return better I'd say

With the majority now dawdling about town I think you'll find that figure a little on the optimistic side. It wouldn't surprise me if they are measuring it from manufacturers claimed figures based on sales tbh.

Timmaay

If these figures are true, surely it would make sense just to scrap green diesel totally, and have some sort of tax back system for anyone who has legitimate use for green diesel.

2 stroke

The state needs to make it mandatory for the large oil companies to report suspicious sales of green diesel. The majority of sales would be 1000 litres a time, can't be too difficult to monitor regular 20,000 litre deliveries. The big oil companies must already know who is buying huge volumes of agricultural/heating/marine oil. Surely by continuing to supply dodgy operators, the oil companies have a responsibility for engine damage.

lifer_sean

Scrapping "green" diesel totally wouldn't help unless there was a similar move to scrap "red" diesel in UK. Otherwise those involved would just launder red diesel from Northern Ireland ... and the problem still remains.

reiger

lifer_sean wrote: »

Scrapping "green" diesel totally wouldn't help unless there was a similar move to scrap "red" diesel in UK. Otherwise those involved would just launder red diesel from Northern Ireland ... and the problem still remains.

your 100% right there needs to be the same both sides

draffodx wrote: »

I haven't bought any fuel at a non branded station for years because of this, being from the border area it's obviously rife in non branded garages in the area and customs have hit a few already.Also, I know personally 3 people who have had big repair bills because of dodgy fuel.

well dont be so niave,some branded stations are evey bit as bad and ive seen the evidence to prove it.
why is there not measures put in place to regularly test filling stations and if caught harsh peanaltys,

Pique

Timmaay wrote: »

If these figures are true, surely it would make sense just to scrap green diesel totally, and have some sort of tax back system for anyone who has legitimate use for green diesel.

Wouldn't work. It was tried and failed.

As for a system where the duty could be reclaimed by farmers and businesses after purchase, officials warn such a scheme would create huge admin costs. (The current marker system was introduced in the 1950s because of abuses of a previous reclaim system.)

Any possibility of a way to scam the taxman will be exploited, have no doubt.

heate

Ehm why not put the onus on the supplier - just like businesses have to check for vat etc why not give farmers or indeed those entitled to use diesel; a card proving this.
The supplier will thus only supply to those with these cards and have to keep a record of the transactions.

Big Nasty

heate wrote: »

Ehm why not put the onus on the supplier - just like businesses have to check for vat etc why not give farmers or indeed those entitled to use diesel; a card proving this.
The supplier will thus only supply to those with these cards and have to keep a record of the transactions.

It's not about people knowingly putting agricultural diesel in to their cars it's about bogey suppliers sellling laundered diesel.

Eph1958

reiger wrote: »

your 100% right there needs to be the same both sides



well dont be so niave,some branded stations are evey bit as bad and ive seen the evidence to prove it.
why is there not measures put in place to regularly test filling stations and if caught harsh peanaltys,

Any chance of posting the evidence?

Atomic Pineapple

reiger wrote: »

well dont be so niave,some branded stations are evey bit as bad and ive seen the evidence to prove it.
why is there not measures put in place to regularly test filling stations and if caught harsh peanaltys,

I'm not, I'm aware that some branded stations may be doing the same.

Gophur

If anyone cares to search you will find reference to a trial, a few years back, of a man from Dunsink in Dublin on charges related to the laundering of diesel. In the Court a representative of an oil company gave evidence of three tankers of agri diesel, per week, being delivered to the location.

A simple revenue audit of the oil company's books would have uncovered who they were selling the stuff to.

It did show, however, the oil company had no scruples selling the stuff into a location where there was zero agricultural activity taking place.

Bandara

reiger wrote: »

your 100% right there needs to be the same both sides



well dont be so niave,some branded stations are evey bit as bad and ive seen the evidence to prove it.
why is there not measures put in place to regularly test filling stations and if caught harsh peanaltys,

I'd be very interested to know what evidence have you seen ? You can explain without naming any brands or locations if you wish.

I know the way the main branded operations are setup and knowing these systems I'd love to know how they manage to sell laundered fuel.

I await your reply with great interest.

Bandara

Gophur wrote: »

If anyone cares to search you will find reference to a trial, a few years back, of a man from Dunsink in Dublin on charges related to the laundering of diesel. In the Court a representative of an oil company gave evidence of three tankers of agri diesel, per week, being delivered to the location.

A simple revenue audit of the oil company's books would have uncovered who they were selling the stuff to.

It did show, however, the oil company had no scruples selling the stuff into a location where there was zero agricultural activity taking place.

By that rationale someone selling kitchen knives should not sell them to someone in a hoody in case they stab someone?




* obviously I'm being devils advocate here

Gophur

Hammertime wrote: »

By that rationale someone selling kitchen knives should not sell them to someone in a hoody in case they stab someone?




* obviously I'm being devils advocate here

Not the same, in any way.

An Oil company delivering three loads of agri diesel to Dunsink, per week, would surely indicate something was amiss? How many tractors would that amount of fuel power?

Bandara

Gophur wrote: »

Not the same, in any way.

An Oil company delivering three loads of agri diesel to Dunsink, per week, would surely indicate something was amiss? How many tractors would that amount of fuel power?

obviously I see your point, but at what stage does a seller of a product have to enforce the law?

As I said, I'm being devils advocate, I'm not excusing the oil company.

If the revenue/customs took even the slightest bit of action this issue would not exist, its so blatant its ridiculous. the top 7 cheapest derv prices on pumps.ie are ALL independents, yet in Unleaded pricing there are only 2 independents in the top 20.

Its just silly at this stage that people are falling for this

Gophur

Hammertime wrote: »

obviously I see your point, but at what stage does a seller of a product have to enforce the law?

As I said, I'm being devils advocate, I'm not excusing the oil company.

If the revenue/customs took even the slightest bit of action this issue would not exist, its so blatant its ridiculous. the top 7 cheapest derv prices on pumps.ie are ALL independents, yet in Unleaded pricing there are only 2 independents in the top 20.

Its just silly at this stage that people are falling for this

I'm not saying the seller of the oil has to enforce any law, as far as I can see, no law was broken.

That said, if Revenue conducted proper audits on the sellers of Agri diesel they would see where the stuff is going.

corkcomp

heate wrote: »

Ehm why not put the onus on the supplier - just like businesses have to check for vat etc why not give farmers or indeed those entitled to use diesel; a card proving this.
The supplier will thus only supply to those with these cards and have to keep a record of the transactions.

that wouldnt really solve anything tbh as the supplier would have no way of knowing if the person passed some of it on to others or indeed used it for a purpose its not legal to use it for.. A lot of older heating systems run on green diesel also so in reality a lot of people could justify getting a delivery of green diesel

Pique

In early 2009, a 'TOP' station in Letterkenny was raided for selling illegal diesel.

Customs staff had monitored it and witnessed multiple loads of fuel being delivered over a week-long period.

I've no idea how long it was going on before the raid.

I can't find any reference to it in the news atm.

Absurdum

Hammertime wrote: »

obviously I see your point, but at what stage does a seller of a product have to enforce the law?

As I said, I'm being devils advocate, I'm not excusing the oil company.

If the revenue/customs took even the slightest bit of action this issue would not exist, its so blatant its ridiculous. the top 7 cheapest derv prices on pumps.ie are ALL independents, yet in Unleaded pricing there are only 2 independents in the top 20.

Its just silly at this stage that people are falling for this

There should be some system in place that the revenue have to be notified if an unlicensed operator orders a large quantity of fuel. Isn't there a system in place that banks have to notify them if someone tries to lodge a large amount of cash, to prevent money laundering? Something like that would help imo.

annfield1978

Who is the authority that you can report suspect petrol stations to?

Atomic Pineapple

annfield1978 wrote: »

Who is the authority that you can report suspect petrol stations to?

Customs maybe?

Nok1a

E39MSport wrote: »

Michael Courtney of Diesel Engineering Services, in Cavan, says that of the vehicles he encounters with such problems, 60 to 70 per cent are caused by contaminated fuel."

I wonder has that got anything to do with it?

Gophur

Nok1a wrote: »

I wonder has that got anything to do with it?

Has what anything to do with what? Care to clarify your question?

randy hickey

There was a documentary done on this a few years ago- I think it was BBC's Spotlight. Anyway, they filmed tankers leaving a particular washing plant on the border and doing deliveries to "branded filling stations". This was happening all over the North.If you really believe that some "branded" filling stations aren't at it down south, well, tell Santa I was asking for him!
On the point about restricting sales of MGO, it's worth noting that the green going into the plant in the documentary was being drawn in by the tanker load from an official depot in Dublin Port!

Bandara

Gophur wrote: »

Nok1a wrote: »

I wonder has that got anything to do with it?

Has what anything to do with what? Care to clarify your question?

That they're all tight cute hoors in Cavan I suppose

Alledgedly of course

randy hickey

Hammertime wrote: »

That they're all tight cute hoors in Cavan I suppose

Alledgedly of course

Nothing cute about wrecking your engine, knowingly or unknowingly.

maidhc

Timmaay wrote: »

If these figures are true, surely it would make sense just to scrap green diesel totally, and have some sort of tax back system for anyone who has legitimate use for green diesel.

That is grand, but I have a tractor that takes 220L to fill. It will drink that in a day if worked had. It would be hard for customs to prove what I would be putting in the little diesel car and what would be going into the tractor. Same with home heating oil (and most burn straight marked gas oil, i.e. diesel)

End result would probably a loss to the taxpayer as it would be hard to police farmers and those with diesel home heating.

CJhaughey

The solution is to sell only one type of diesel.
Then any vehicle using it for use on the road has a displayed card and pays the difference.
Then if a person buys it in the north or the south it makes no difference its all unmarked but if you are caught without the relevant card on the road you get done.
Its already in use in NZ, its called the Road User Charge.
Why reinvent the wheel?

Odelay

CJhaughey wrote: »

The solution is to sell only one type of diesel.
Then any vehicle using it for use on the road has a displayed card and pays the difference.
Then if a person buys it in the north or the south it makes no difference its all unmarked but if you are caught without the relevant card on the road you get done.
Its already in use in NZ, its called the Road User Charge.
Why reinvent the wheel?

But then what is to stop me filling my car with diesel intended for the tractor? the card on the windscreen won't make much difference while filling in my own yard.

CJhaughey

Odelay wrote: »

But then what is to stop me filling my car with diesel intended for the tractor? the card on the windscreen won't make much difference while filling in my own yard.

Thats the point. All diesel is untaxed, using it on the road you buy an amount of milage and this is displayed on the windscreen.
If you are found using a diesel vehicle on the road without a current Road user charge license then you have to buy the milege at twice the price.
thats how it works.
The industries that use it offroad like farmers/plant/marine diesel buy it and use it at the untaxed rate.
Its only when you use it on road that you have to pay the subsidy.
Its the reverse of the current system.
But the displayed cards have a scannable barcode that the police use to verify the legitimacy of the license.

shedweller

CJhaughey wrote: »

Why reinvent the wheel?

NZ has a great healthcare system too and we don't copy it. Too many vested interests IMO.
Re; the green and white diesel, i suppose the next question is: who loses out if there is a "road user charge" or something similar brought in here?

CJhaughey

shedweller wrote: »

NZ has a great healthcare system too and we don't copy it. Too many vested interests IMO.
Re; the green and white diesel, i suppose the next question is: who loses out if there is a "road user charge" or something similar brought in here?

I guess there is some sort of lobby that has pushed for this system to remain in place.
Otherwise it would should be a simple matter to implement this system.
Just think, no hassle with washed diesel damaging cars, No toxic residue being dumped in tankers.
Cutting off illegal revenue streams to criminals.
Easy checkpoints, no need to dip and check diesel just scan the card and see if the mileage is OK.
I can't see what the big problem would be?
Foreign truck drivers could pay for a license as they enter the state or if they are part of a company there is now GPS based systems that cost USD 69.

ml100

what they will probably do is continue with green diesel for agri, but charge the same price as white for it and allow legitimate agri users to claim back the difference.

An Ri rua

Hammertime wrote: »

That they're all tight cute hoors in Cavan I suppose

Alledgedly of course

@gophur

I think its pretty obvious that he meant CAVAN is geographically close to the BORDER

shedweller

shedweller wrote: »

NZ has a great healthcare system too and we don't copy it. Too many vested interests IMO.
Re; the green and white diesel, i suppose the next question is: who loses out if there is a "road user charge" or something similar brought in here?

CJhaughey wrote: »

I guess there is some sort of lobby that has pushed for this system to remain in place.
Otherwise it would should be a simple matter to implement this system.
Just think, no hassle with washed diesel damaging cars, No toxic residue being dumped in tankers.
Cutting off illegal revenue streams to criminals.
Easy checkpoints, no need to dip and check diesel just scan the card and see if the mileage is OK.
I can't see what the big problem would be?
Foreign truck drivers could pay for a license as they enter the state or if they are part of a company there is now GPS based systems that cost USD 69.

I'm noticing a distinct lack of replies, so i must have hit paydirt! Thats something i've noticed here!
Didn't mary harney go to nz a few years ago to take a look at their healthcare system? I'm noticing a complete refusal to copy that same system.
Vested interests anyone?;)
Same sh1t different day.

shedweller

shedweller wrote: »

I'm noticing a distinct lack of replies, so i must have hit paydirt! Thats something i've noticed here!.............

It's a four month old, three page thread
There has been a distinct lack of replies long before you shed your wisdom in it :pac:

Mully_2011

CJhaughey wrote: »

Thats the point. All diesel is untaxed, using it on the road you buy an amount of milage and this is displayed on the windscreen.
If you are found using a diesel vehicle on the road without a current Road user charge license then you have to buy the milege at twice the price.
thats how it works.
The industries that use it offroad like farmers/plant/marine diesel buy it and use it at the untaxed rate.
Its only when you use it on road that you have to pay the subsidy.
Its the reverse of the current system.
But the displayed cards have a scannable barcode that the police use to verify the legitimacy of the license.

That'd be madness running a car is expensive enough at the minute without adding more charges.

CJhaughey

Mully_2011 wrote: »

That'd be madness running a car is expensive enough at the minute without adding more charges.

You won't add any more charges, The road diesel you buy now is already taxed.
This seperates the tax element out and you pay the difference between the untaxed(green) and the taxed (road diesel)
In other words you go to the garage and all that is there is untaxed diesel.
Diggers, cars, trucks etc all fill from the same pump.
However vehicles that use it on road pay for it through the Road User Charge.
This way there is no way to launder fuel because its all the same!

shedweller

CJhaughey wrote: »

Mully_2011 wrote: »

That'd be madness running a car is expensive enough at the minute without adding more charges.

You won't add any more charges, The road diesel you buy now is already taxed.
This seperates the tax element out and you pay the difference between the untaxed(green) and the taxed (road diesel)
In other words you go to the garage and all that is there is untaxed diesel.
Diggers, cars, trucks etc all fill from the same pump.
However vehicles that use it on road pay for it through the Road User Charge.
This way there is no way to launder fuel because its all the same!

It works in nz because it is policed well. It'll never work here.

pegasus1

So to make it simple..

1. Everyone buys the green deisel from the one tank..

2. Only road users would have a 5,000 km at a time useage license on windscreen/ also on Garda records via registration plate etc.

3. At garage forecourt I presume you would verify your total milage on car when paying for fuel. Ie. it would be also on receipt.

4. No way to clock the car due to ongoing recording of milage..

5.another bonus... Pay road/motor tax at the same time via this milage license.

In other words an excellent system!

pegasus1

shedweller wrote: »

It works in nz because it is policed well. It'll never work here.

Is Feidir Linn

shedweller

pegasus1 wrote: »

Is Feidir Linn

Thats the spirit!

maidhc

pegasus1 wrote: »

So to make it simple..

1. Everyone buys the green deisel from the one tank..

2. Only road users would have a 5,000 km at a time useage license on windscreen/ also on Garda records via registration plate etc.

3. At garage forecourt I presume you would verify your total milage on car when paying for fuel. Ie. it would be also on receipt.

4. No way to clock the car due to ongoing recording of milage..

5.another bonus... Pay road/motor tax at the same time via this milage license.

In other words an excellent system!

It wouldn't be hard to programme the Odometer to read a number of your choosing, it is only an LED screen.

It seems the road usage in NZ is about €27 per 1000km for small vehicles. To do 1000km in an average diesel will need 70L. In Ireland the tax take on diesel is running at about €1 per litre, so the card things would need to cost three times as much to be revenue neutral. The incentive to fiddle would be bigger.

NZ doesn't appear to have road tax to the same level we do, but have some contribution to a insurance, which we also have by way of levies and MIBI contribution (I think about €100 a year at this point!).

I'm not convinced. I think it would be cheaper just to audit farmers trawlermen!

CJhaughey

maidhc wrote: »

It wouldn't be hard to programme the Odometer to read a number of your choosing, it is only an LED screen.

I'm not convinced. I think it would be cheaper just to audit farmers trawlermen!

What the Police do in NZ at stops is get you to drive a km or so and see if your odo changes.
50k fines for personal evasion and 200k for companies.

Cookie_Monster

CJhaughey wrote: »

Thats the point. All diesel is untaxed, using it on the road you buy an amount of milage and this is displayed on the windscreen.
If you are found using a diesel vehicle on the road without a current Road user charge license then you have to buy the milege at twice the price.
thats how it works.
The industries that use it offroad like farmers/plant/marine diesel buy it and use it at the untaxed rate.
Its only when you use it on road that you have to pay the subsidy.
Its the reverse of the current system.
But the displayed cards have a scannable barcode that the police use to verify the legitimacy of the license.

But then surely every farmer over here (NZ) pays RUC as he has to use the roads to drive from one field to the next and so forth? How is that aspect allowed for?

Given that Police / IRD have no way of knowing how much mileage is on road / off road they can't really give partial credit etc either..

CJhaughey

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

But then surely every farmer over here (NZ) pays RUC as he has to use the roads to drive from one field to the next and so forth? How is that aspect allowed for?

Given that Police / IRD have no way of knowing how much mileage is on road / off road they can't really give partial credit etc either..

Refunds that may apply to RUC vehicles

In certain circumstances you may be eligible for a refund of RUC. Circumstances include where you were issued with an RUC licence less than two years ago and you regularly use the vehicle off road. Find out whether you can get a refund.
You may also be eligible for refunds if you're using petrol, LPG or CNG in your RUC licensed vehicle, as you've already paid the tax on these fuels when you purchased them. See whether you're eligible for an excise duty refund.