teenager has become vegetarian... Any advice

bellapip

Hi there,

My 13 year old decided about a month ago that she really does not want to eat meat... to be honest I thought she would last about a week, but nope, its now been 3.5 weeks and she is adamant that she has no interest in meat.
As I don't really eat meat myself I didn't really see this as being a huge problem, I am fit and eat extremely well.

WRONG{{{{ I love all veg and fish and lentils and pretty much anything, my daughter on the other hand, though she will try all these things, there are heaps of foods in my groups of foods that she does not eat and I have now hit the wall with things to cook for her.
Her brother and sister are happy to eat meat and I just thought she would adapt to eating the things I eat, but thats not the case.
She is a very laid back girl, and would not dream of moaning or being a pain about food, but I feel she is not getting nearly enough of what she needs.

Any help of advice would be great. The only fish she likes is tuna and to be honest there is a danger of her turning into a tuna salad soon!!!

many thanks

Bell

Susie_Q

If she has decided to stop eating meat, then she should be involved in what she now *will* eat. Perhaps get a veggie cookbook from your local library and sit down with her and see what she is interested in. Simply explain that she needs to eat better if she wants to be veggie, no arguments.

Also be careful of going overboard on tuna, it has fairly high levels of mercury. One or two small tins per week is fine but more than that can be dangerous for her health.

--Kaiser--

Umm...fish is meat, she's not a vegetarian, she's a pescatarian

MagicMarker

She's 13, put a plate of food in front of her and tell her to eat. You're not her personal chef.

bellapip

Thanks Kaiser, I never even knew there was such a word, she does not call her self anything, she just says I don't eat meat at the moment, so in case I cause offense to vegetarians, she is child who does not eat meat of Animals on four legs or feathered creatures.

Thank you Susie-Q that is good advice and I will be doing a trip to the library this week. Never knew that about Tuna, my other pair love it, so cut back there.

Magic, I am not her personal chef, but I am her mother, and as such I must respect that my daughter is an individual person who gets to make decisions, albeit once I think it is safe for her to do so.
If she was diabetic or intolerant of different food groups I would have to cater to her needs differently, so why not this.
She is a good kid and for now I respect her judgment.

vibe666

sit down in front of her and tuck into a big plate of rasher sandwiches, she'll soon come around.

Mr. Presentable

There are nutritional implications to not eating meat, moreso if a growing child like yours, so you need to make sure she is getting her iron, zinc, calcium, B vitamins etc, which she may be short on with her new diet.

Important also is that you support her and not conflict with her beliefs or she will dig her heels in. Chances are she'll revert to meat eating at some point if you don't make an issue of it.

Wyldwood

My daughter went vegetarian around the same age as your daughter & I went with it thinking it would only last a few weeks... she's now 22 and still vegetarian and is very healthy.

It is a pain trying to get the right mix of nutrients into them. I bought my daughter a cookbook called The Vegetarian Student Cookbook by Hamlyn (it's pink & green). It's full of the simplest recipes that you can help her make until she's able to do it herself.

Check out the vegetarian freezer sections in the supermarket, there are good meat substitutes that you can use for making things like lasagne, shepherd's pie, curry etc.


You can also add a daily multivitamin if you're worried about her nutrition. Seven Seas make one specially for vegetarians.

seamus

Eggs will provide all of the nutrition which she would otherwise get from meat, so try to get at least one egg meal into her per day, be that a boiled egg in the morning, egg sandwich for lunch, etc etc.

Vegetarianism carries no real health implications because there are no nutrients provided by meat which cannot be gathered from non-meat sources. For most vegetarians, it's rarely even a consideration because they will get these nutrients from other animal sources like eggs, cheese & milk.

Veganism is iffier because although the nutrients are still available, you need a much more planned diet without your animal sources.

The one caveat I give everyone is to avoid bulking up meals with carbs, cheese or sauces. An extra potato is not a substitute for a steak. A cheese topping will not offset the lack of ham in a carbonara.
This is not for nutritional implications rather weight concerns. If you jam her meals with carbs and fats in lieu of proteins, she will start to get porky.

The easiest thing for any parent in this situation is to look at the specific meat substitutes provided by the likes of Quorn. These allow you to serve your daughter exactly the same meal as everyone else, but without the meat. The nutrition provided by these substitutes is the same, if not better than actual meat, though beware of the ones that come ready-made with coatings and sauces, they can be quite high in fat.

Mellor

bellapip wrote: »

Thanks Kaiser, I never even knew there was such a word, she does not call her self anything, she just says I don't eat meat at the moment, so in case I cause offense to vegetarians, she is child who does not eat meat of Animals on four legs or feathered creatures.

But she is ok with two legs?

Kadongy

seamus wrote: »

Eggs will provide all of the nutrition which she would otherwise get from meat, so try to get at least one egg meal into her per day, be that a boiled egg in the morning, egg sandwich for lunch, etc etc.

Eggs dont provide all the nutrition you get from meat. A large egg has only 4% of a typical RDA for iron for example.

Vegetarian diets can be very nutritious, but they often aren't and are very deficient in minerals such as iron and zinc, as Mr Presentable stated. Iron deficiency is the single most common nutritional deficiency overall in fact. Iron from vegetable sources is not as easily absorbed by the body as from meat sources. It needs to be combined with a source of vitamin C to absorb it much at all. It is a good idea to avoid combining foods rich in iron with foods rich in calcium as the calcium will inhibit iron absorption (and vice-versa, but quantities of calcium are typically much greater, so it is the former that is more important usually).

Dark green leafy vegetables are a good source of nutrients often found in meat, including iron and it's a good idea to eat them in great quantities.

Susie Q is correct in saying that tuna is contaminated with mercury. The level of contamination varies between types of tuna. The general rule I have read is that 4 tins a week should be the maximum consumed.

Eggs, tuna, dairy are all excellent sources of protein. Vegetable sources of protein, with few exceptions such as soy, need to be combined for them to be useful. Combining beans/pulses with cereals provides as high quality protein as meat, while adding nuts to the mix results in as high quality protein as eggs.

Thomas Magnum

Kadongy wrote: »

Iron from vegetable sources is not as easily absorbed by the body as from meat sources. It needs to be combined with a source of vitamin C to absorb it much at all.

The body absorbs all the vegetable iron it cares for when consumed with a source of Vitamin C.

Kadongy wrote: »

Susie Q is correct in saying that tuna is contaminated with mercury. The level of contamination varies between types of tuna. The general rule I have read is that 4 tins a week should be the maximum consumed.

If something is contaminated with mercury surely then the only safe level of consumption is 0?

Kadongy wrote: »

Vegetable sources of protein, with few exceptions such as soy, need to be combined for them to be useful.

The old canard that plant protein is incomplete compared to meat protein and that plant foods have to be carefully combined to make a complete protein is a load of old bunk that was never based on actual science. Fruits and vegetables are complete proteins.

Kadongy

Thomas Magnum wrote: »

The body absorbs all the vegetable iron it cares for when consumed with a source of Vitamin C.




If something is contaminated with mercury surely then the only safe level of consumption is 0?




The old canard that plant protein is incomplete compared to meat protein and that plant foods have to be carefully combined to make a complete protein is a load of old bunk that was never based on actual science. Fruits and vegetables are complete proteins.

1. Not necessarily. Only if you eat a surplus of vegetable iron. You won't absorb all the iron in a vegetable you eat.
2. There are contaminants and toxic substances in almost everything you will eat. Completely avoiding them is not realistic.
3. No it's not. We need a greater variety of amino acids than are present in most vegetable sources - or fruit, which contains almost no protein anyway. Putting forward fruit as a protein source is just bizarre really.

Thomas Magnum

Kadongy wrote: »

1. No it doesn't.
2. There are contaminants and toxic substances in almost everything you will eat. Completely avoiding them is not realistic.
3. No it's not. We need a greater variety of amino acids than are present in most vegetable sources - or fruit, which contains almost no protein anyway. Putting forward fruit as a protein source is just bizarre really.

1. Yes it does. You obviously don't understand basic biology.

2. Mercury was specifically mentioned and I merely asked if it was safe to be consuming foods contaminated with mercury. You obviously feel that it's ok. I disagree.

3. Fruits and vegetables contain every essential amino acid and are complete no matter how much or how little of them you eat.

Kadongy

Thomas Magnum wrote: »

1. Yes it does. You obviously don't understand basic biology.

2. Mercury was specifically mentioned and I merely asked if it was safe to be consuming foods contaminated with mercury. You obviously feel that it's ok. I disagree.

3. Fruits and vegetables contain every essential amino acid and are complete no matter how much or how little of them you eat.

1. First google result for query site:edu iron absorption vegetable:

In general, iron is not readily absorbed by the body. Availability is partially determined by whether the iron is found in the form of HEME or NON-HEME iron.

HEME iron is found only in meat, fish and poultry and is absorbed much more easily than NON-HEME iron, which is found primarily in fruits, vegetables, dried beans, nuts and grain products.

http://www.mckinley.illinois.edu/handouts/dietary_sources_iron.html

2. You're stating this as an opinion now so I'll leave this.

3. They contain low levels of some essential amino acids, hence you need to mix them to get sufficient quantities of essential amino acids in any realistic diet. Quibbling about semantics is not constructive.

Consider including sources and leaving out the personal remarks if you feel the need to respond further.

Thomas Magnum

Kadongy wrote: »

1. First google result for query site:edu iron absorption vegetable:


http://www.mckinley.illinois.edu/handouts/dietary_sources_iron.html

The only reason Heme Iron is absorbed easily is because of the electrical charge of the molecule. Plant irons have a different charge. Thats why you take a reducing agent such as Vitamin C with your plant iron and that changes the charge of the plant iron molecule and the body can then absorb it easily.

Kadongy wrote: »

2. You're stating this as an opinion now so I'll leave this.

You agreed with another poster on the contamination of tuna with mercury and said 4tins a week could be safely consumed. I asked was this wise and assumed that because you didn't say otherwise that you agreed with it. You then responded by saying all foods were contaminated to some degree or another. So I ask you now to please state your position on this and if I have been incorrect then I apologise.

Kadongy wrote: »

3. They contain low levels of some essential amino acids, hence you need to mix them to get sufficient quantities of essential amino acids in any realistic diet. Quibbling about semantics is not constructive.

They contain ALL essential amino acids therefore they are complete.

Kadongy wrote: »

Quibbling about semantics is not constructive.

Nor is ignoring the truth.

Kadongy

Thomas Magnum wrote: »

The only reason Heme Iron is absorbed easily is because of the electrical charge of the molecule. Plant irons have a different charge. Thats why you take a reducing agent such as Vitamin C with your plant iron and that changes the charge of the plant iron molecule and the body can then absorb it easily.





You agreed with another poster on the contamination of tuna with mercury and said 4tins a week could be safely consumed. I asked was this wise and assumed that because you didn't say otherwise that you agreed with it. You then responded by saying all foods were contaminated to some degree or another. So I ask you now to please state your position on this and if I have been incorrect then I apologise.




They contain ALL essential amino acids therefore they are complete.



Nor is ignoring the truth.

1. I dont know the science behind it and arguing this point further is irrelevant to the topic. The main point is that vitamin C needs to be consumed with vegetable iron for its absorption. You say that the body absorbs all the iron it needs which contradicts everything I have read on the topic, and you dont provide any sources or evidence, but again this is not really relevant to the subject of this thread.

2. I didn't say four tins could be safely consumed. I said it's reccommended not to consume more than four cans a week.
Most foods contain toxins or contaminants of some sort so completely eliminating a food due to their presence is questionable when they are within recommended limits. Fluoride is shown to be extremely harmful in high quantities yet people drink water.
My personal position is to avoid eating tuna but I eat loads of protein anyway. If someone doesn't eat much protein rich food then the protein in tuna would offset the mercury consumption imo.

3. I was not aware it was no longer en vogue to use the terms complete and incomplete protein. The criticism of the term is academic, and misleading in this context: Saying that all fruits and vegetables contain complete protein without explaining further is misleading since it gives the impression there is no need to consume a mixture of them. The fact remains that eating only cereal or only beans/pulses is not going to provide enough of all essential amino acids, and you need to consume a mixture of them. If you are studying for a biology exam then the distinction is important. If you are trying to maintain a healthy diet then it's irrelevant.

I dont see how your arguments about points 1 and 3 contribute anything to the topic being discussed tbh. I posted constructive advice and information. You only seem intent on trying to take me down a peg or something, rather than contributing anything helpful.

teacosy

bellapip wrote: »

Hi there,

My 13 year old decided about a month ago that she really does not want to eat meat... to be honest I thought she would last about a week, but nope, its now been 3.5 weeks and she is adamant that she has no interest in meat.
As I don't really eat meat myself I didn't really see this as being a huge problem, I am fit and eat extremely well.

WRONG{{{{ I love all veg and fish and lentils and pretty much anything, my daughter on the other hand, though she will try all these things, there are heaps of foods in my groups of foods that she does not eat and I have now hit the wall with things to cook for her.
Her brother and sister are happy to eat meat and I just thought she would adapt to eating the things I eat, but thats not the case.
She is a very laid back girl, and would not dream of moaning or being a pain about food, but I feel she is not getting nearly enough of what she needs.

Any help of advice would be great. The only fish she likes is tuna and to be honest there is a danger of her turning into a tuna salad soon!!!

many thanks

Bell

Dear Bell

I'm sure you've seen this site already, but it should be able to answer any questions you have as well as giving lots of practical suggestions:
https://www.vegsoc.org/
The Veg Soc website is well written by professionals qualified to give nutrition advice.
Teacosy

Thomas Magnum

Kadongy wrote: »

1. I dont know the science behind it and arguing this point further is irrelevant to the topic. The main point is that vitamin C needs to be consumed with vegetable iron for its absorption. You say that the body absorbs all the iron it needs which contradicts everything I have read on the topic, and you dont provide any sources or evidence, but again this is not really relevant to the subject of this thread.

I say it absorbs the plant iron it needs in the presence of Vitamin C.

Kadongy wrote: »

My personal position is to avoid eating tuna but I eat loads of protein anyway. If someone doesn't eat much protein rich food then the protein in tuna would offset the mercury consumption imo.

Mercury is an extremely toxic substance. Why consume tuna for protein when you can get far safer sources of protein instead? Boggles the mind IMO.

Kadongy wrote: »

3. I was not aware it was no longer en vogue to use the terms complete and incomplete protein. The criticism of the term is academic, and misleading in this context: Saying that all fruits and vegetables contain complete protein without explaining further is misleading since it gives the impression there is no need to consume a mixture of them. The fact remains that eating only cereal or only beans/pulses is not going to provide enough of all essential amino acids, and you need to consume a mixture of them. If you are studying for a biology exam then the distinction is important. If you are trying to maintain a healthy diet then it's irrelevant.

The terms "complete protein" and "incomplete protein" were pure bunk to begin with. Fruits and vegetables do contain all essential amino acids so are in fact complete. It's true that meat contains a higher amount of protein but you are confusing more with better. If one consumes enough calories in the day from whole foods they will consume enough protein.

Kadongy wrote: »

I dont see how your arguments about points 1 and 3 contribute anything to the topic being discussed tbh. I posted constructive advice and information. You only seem intent on trying to take me down a peg or something, rather than actually contributing anything helpful.

I was not "intent on trying to take you down a peg" but merely trying to correct misinformation. Don't take it personally.

Kadongy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDCAAS

Not confusing more with better at all. The protein in eggs is better than the protein in wheat.
You can get enough protein by eating a vegetarian diet - that was never put in question. Most vegetable sources of protein dont provide enough of all essentail amino acids unless they are combined in the manner I have stated already. Twice. Calorie intake is a separate issue.
I dont want to continue this because it is pulling the thread completely off topic, and I think I have said enough about it already.

I was not "intent on trying to take you down a peg" but merely trying to correct misinformation. Don't take it personally.

Sure. Saying this indicated that alright:

"You obviously don't understand basic biology."

Thomas Magnum

Kadongy wrote: »

Most vegetable sources of protein dont provide enough of all essentail amino acids unless they are combined in the manner I have stated already. Twice.

How much protein does one need to consume in a day?

Kadongy wrote: »

Calorie intake is a separate issue.

Not really. In my experience, if one is meeting their caloric needs from whole foods then invariably their nutrient needs are often well met also.

Kadongy wrote: »

I dont want to continue this because it is pulling the thread completely off topic, and I think I have said enough about it already.

Correcting misinformation is not pulling the thread off-topic.

Kadongy wrote: »

Sure. Saying this indicated that alright:

You may not have liked it but it was true nonetheless. Again, I'm not trying to take a dig at you but rather correct your misunderstanding.

Kadongy

Thomas Magnum wrote: »

How much protein does one need to consume in a day?




Not really. In my experience, if one is meeting their caloric needs from whole foods then invariably their nutrient needs are often well met also.



Correcting misinformation is not pulling the thread off-topic.




You may not have liked it but it was true nonetheless. Again, I'm not trying to take a dig at you but rather correct your misunderstanding.

Your experience or not it is a separate issue. Plenty of people have nutritional deficiencies who eat nothing but whole foods, if they dont consume a varied enough diet. One extreme example: http://www.enotes.com/peoples-chronology/year-1965/nutrition.

I've an ex gf who went from gymnast muscles to being unable to squat (literally - without any weight except her own body), without losing weight, after following a badly planned vegetarian diet consisting of very large amounts of wholefoods, fruits and vegetables and salads and almost zero junk. Because she wasn't getting proper protein intake.

I myself followed a badly planned vegetarian diet for a while under the badly incorrect impression that milk was a good source of iron - when in fact it inhibits iron absorption. I ate wholefoods yet I became very pale and lacked energy and was clearly lacking iron.

Suggesting simply eating whole foods equates to getting complete nutrition is almost as mental as when you suggested fruit as a source of protein.

This discussion is pulling the thread completely off-topic, and it's really starting to annoy me, so be aware I won't read any more of your posts.

Thomas Magnum

Kadongy wrote: »

Your experience or not it is a separate issue. Plenty of people have nutitional deficiencies who eat nothing but whole foods, if they dont consume a varied enough diet. One extreme example: http://www.enotes.com/peoples-chronology/year-1965/nutrition.

The article fails to mention how much she ate. No doubt the result of calorie restriction.

Kadongy wrote: »

I've an ex gf who went from gymnast muscles to being unable to squat (literally - without any weight except her own body), without losing weight, after following a badly planned vegetarian diet consisting of very large amounts of wholefoods, fruits and vegetables and salads and almost zero junk. Because she wasn't getting proper protein intake.

I myself followed a badly planned vegetarian diet for a while under the badly incorrect impression that milk was a good source of iron - when in fact it inhibits iron absorption. I ate wholefoods yet I became very pale and lacked energy and was clearly lacking iron.

You admit you both followed badly planned diets. That was your problem. Not whether plant proteins are complete or not or whether plant iron is absorbable.

Kadongy wrote: »

Suggesting simply eating whole foods equates to getting complete nutrition is almost as mental as when you suggested fruit as a source of protein.

Fruit contains all essential amino acids, therefore has complete protein. I don't understand what's so difficult to comprehend.

Kadongy wrote: »

This discussion is pulling the thread completely off-topic, and it's really starting to annoy me, so be aware I won't read any more of your posts.

No problem.

meoklmrk91

I went through the same thing at 13, about 3 months later I had a craving for a rasher and that was the end of that. But your daughter may have more will power than me. Just try and give her a varied diet. Sit down with her and a computer and look up some recipes on the internet, if you see some that she might like then maybe you could try making it together or have the whole family have a vegetarian night once a week where you could all try a new dish. You are doing the right thing by supporting her OP, I remember my family laughed when I went on it, so it's nice and whether or not she decides to keep it up she will remember that her mam was behind her 100%.

bellapip

WOW,....

First off thank you all for the incredibly practical and in some cases very detailed responses, I really do appreciate all the advice and there are some things that I had just not taken into consideration.

As I said at the off set, she is a great young girl, not a bit prone to flights of fancy (YET) and is very grounded and down to earth. This has enabled me to treat her decision with respect, and the fact that I very, very, rarely eat meat myself has made me aware how it is possible to be healthy and fit without meat and still have protein from a varied diet.
BUT I am a little bit past 13, so I suppose I don't spend a lot of time considering my protein or vitamin intake the way I would about hers.

However, all that said, she is a young girl, and I just wanted to get a feel for little tips and perhaps other peoples experiences.

She baked yesterday in school and brought in Quorn sausages to make the sausage rolls, she reckons that these are much nicer than regular sausages!!! (I have to agree).

Thanks a million folks, I have tons here to keep me going, and plan a trip to the library Friday after work with herself.... Can only imagine what my kitchen will look like by lunchtime Saturday after she has been let loose in it.

Thanks.


Bell

Mellor

Thomas Magnum wrote: »

Not really. In my experience, if one is meeting their caloric needs from whole foods then invariably their nutrient needs are often well met also.

LOL
That isn't even remotely true.
If that was was case there wouldn't be nutrient deficiencies in anyone eating maitenance level or above.

Fruit contains all essential amino acids, therefore has complete protein. I don't understand what's so difficult to comprehend.

Containing a protein is not enough on its own, it must also be present in the correct amounts which can be an issue with using fruit as a source.

More important is bioavailibilty or rather the Biological value of the protein. In general, whey is the highest value, followed by eggs. Plant based are oftern the lowest scoring.

flikflak

Hi OP

Dont forget the friendly and helpful vegetarian/vegan board!

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=572 plenty of helpful folk there who can give you some great inspiration and tips for a fun and healthy diet.

howtomake

You sound like a wonderful mom and your daughter must be something special. This will also be a great opportunity to get your daughter more involved with educating herself on proper nutrition that will carry her over to adulthood.

I'm kind of like your daughter, although I eat any kind of seafood but tuna, tuna has a chicken texture to me. And I try not to even label myself as a pescetarian either. I never made a conscious decision not to eat meat but seafood any more, just sort of happened, something like 15 years ago. But over the years I've experimented quite a bit with cooking my own, and I've made some pretty weird stuff. Anyway what I'm trying to say is go wild.

Glad to hear she likes Quorn, some people have a very severe allergic reaction to it. The history of 'Quorn' is quite fascinating too, although some find it a bit off putting.

Thomas Magnum

Mellor wrote: »

LOL
That isn't even remotely true.
If that was was case there wouldn't be nutrient deficiencies in anyone eating maitenance level or above.

Whole foods = fruits and vegetables. Most people don't eat enough.

Mellor wrote: »

Containing a protein is not enough on its own, it must also be present in the correct amounts which can be an issue with using fruit as a source.

How much protein does one need?

Mellor wrote: »

More important is bioavailibilty or rather the Biological value of the protein. In general, whey is the highest value, followed by eggs. Plant based are oftern the lowest scoring.

Again... you're confusing more with better.

groovyg

Thomas Magnum - The OP started a thread looking for advice on suitable meals for her daughter who has turned vegetarian. Between yourself and Kadongy its now derailed into a slanging match - go and start a new thread if you have no advice for the OP

bellapip

Hi Folks,

Just coming back to this thread 8 months later, and still I have found advice in it.
Well, madam still not eating meat, but eating white fish, and has now such a beautifully varied diet, that if it wasn't for the fact my other two are such carnivores, I would be pushing the same to them.

Just wanted to say thanks again for all the advice,. There have been times when putting a school lunch together is tough, but we got there.
My daughter is fit and healthy, cycles a lot more than she did, and is just a 1/2 off six foot. A recent visit to the doctor for a strange bug bite, confirmed that her b12 is good and high, and her overall health is excellent.

I am delighted that I have given her this opportunity of expression, I guess is she was not mature enough to take it on, she would have eaten meat with the others on the days I told her to sort her own meals. Instead she has them eating things like lentils in homemade soups, Quinoa which I hated prior to her cooking it, gorgeous spicy veg hotpots again made by herself from scratch.!

My advice to any other mother who comes looking, is to support your child, you will soon see if they are mature enough to carry it through.

Thanks again.

Bell