LPG - why does it not work here as a fuel alternative?

MidlandsM

I was over in the uk last week buying some stock and I was offered an lpg converted 2.5v6 mondeo. When i told my trade contact "naaaa, lpg's not a seller in Ireland", he was suprised, but then again, I don't blame him.

Like LPG works well in the uk for cheap motoring (or cheaper anyways) for big engined conversions (like that mondeo), but what kills it here?

I never looked closely at it, I guess its the duty, feck all pumps or pricing or what is it?

Thoughts on LPG motoring boardies?

pcardin

Backarse country...

It works everywhere in EU. I had few LPG monster too. I think tax is too high to make it interesting here but could be something else.

Stinicker

pcardin wrote: »

Backarse country...

It works everywhere in EU. I had few LPG monster too. I think tax is too high to make it interesting here but could be something else.

It is tax, a litre of LPG in Ireland is almost double the cost of most of our European neighbours, as a result it is not economical to do the conversion as the saving is tiny and totally offset by the conversion cost and thus very few people have LPG cars and there is little demand for the fuel which means there are hardly any stockists left anymore.

It is tax and the former FF government through high taxation killed off the LPG industry like many more facets of the economy. If LPG taxes were reduced people would make the conversion and the industry would be re-vitalise within a few months.

In Ireland LPG is around €1.20/€1.30 in the few stockists left wheras in the UK it is between 70p to 80p a litre and you get a motor tax reduction afaik for running on LPG and also a grant for the conversion, quite alot of the stereotypical gas guzzlers over there are on LPG but with Ford Focus running costs.

Raskolnikov

Stinicker wrote: »

In Ireland LPG is around €1.20/€1.30 in the few stockists left wheras in the UK it is between 70p to 80p a litre and you get a motor tax reduction afaik for running on LPG and also a grant for the conversion, quite alot of the stereotypical gas guzzlers over there are on LPG but with Ford Focus running costs.

That's pretty much it. LPG is about half the cost of petrol in the UK, however, LPG gets the least amount of mileage per gallon compared with diesel or petrol. Also, LPG conversion only works on big cars which have room for a 100 litre pressurized tank (MPG will be pathetic, plus it's not like there are many fueling stations).

Vertakill

Raskolnikov wrote: »

MPG will be pathetic

You've totally pulled that 'fact' out of your a$s.

It's about -10% mpg on it's petrol equivalent because it contains less energy.

However, it's cheaper so that counters the energy issue. But it would need to be a lot cheaper and a lot more readily available for it to ever kick off here.

Raskolnikov wrote: »

Also, LPG conversion only works on big cars which have room for a 100 litre pressurized tank

Also, that's not entirely true either. While having a larger car is always a benefit when adding a large tank into your boot, it's not a necessity.
However, since it's most commonly done on large V6/V8s etc, that's usually a moot point.

However, I know of someone with an LPG conversion in their boot and you wouldn't even know it's there when you open up the boot lid.

And I know of several 350Z LPG conversions that have been done too and I wouldn't exactly consider them 'large' cars by any means.

pcardin

so it is tax issues. As I thought.

Sad anyway. Stil remember the days when fueling my car was the last worry. That was before I moved to Ireland. The only place I remeber seing LPG was in Esso at Blakes Cross near Lusk. It was 90c per litre and it was in 2006 when petrol used to cost 1euro per litre.

MidlandsM

yeah, the lack of pumps is a pain. I remember having the winnebago and could'nt find gas anywhere to fill the gas tank for the onboard generator.

backarse country indeed!

CiniO

Raskolnikov wrote: »

Also, LPG conversion only works on big cars which have room for a 100 litre pressurized tank (MPG will be pathetic, plus it's not like there are many fueling stations).

I had a Fiat Cinquecento 0.9 converted to LPG.
Tank was in the boot instead of spare wheel (35 litres).
Fuel consumption was greater by about 15% than on petrol.
Average fuel cost was about half of what you could get on petrol.

Victor Meldrew

I'd have said that road tax here is an issue, which stops it being a cheap way of having a "real engine" in your car.

Also by the time you have paid for the conversion, you could have the diesel equivalent and there are neglible savings in running costs compared with getting a diesel in the first place

Matt Simis

Victor Meldrew wrote: »

Also by the time you have paid for the conversion, you could have the diesel equivalent and there are neglible savings in running costs compared with getting a diesel in the first place

That logic the same in the UK though (and everywhere). Not really sure its even true considering an LPG conversion is from £1000 to £1300 while diesels can cost thousands upon thousands more depending on the model (if available at all).

My Audi S8 had an LPG conversion done already. Works great whenever I can find the fuel for it.
LPG conversions are done on cars that people already own and want to keep or upgrade the economy of.

maxfresh

I lived in australia for a while in brisbane and all the taxis there are lpg and its as easy to get as unleaded and half the price

Anan1

There's no inherent economy advantage to LPG, it only makes economic sense when tax rates are skewed to make it so.

CiniO

Anan1 wrote: »

There's no inherent economy advantage to LPG, it only makes economic sense when tax rates are skewed to make it so.

You mean motor tax, or fuel tax/levy.

When LPG price is half price of petrol, savings can be huge.

unkel

Yes it's all about fiscal policy. Here's the reason why LPG is popular in the Netherlands



Mate converted his Alfa GTV 3l V6 to LPG and the investment was paid for within one year. He's no boot now though...

CiniO

Another one:

unkel

Is that one recent enough?

Does that make unleaded about €1.16 with the zloty at €0.23? Not bad

JP 1800

The same thing happened with bio ethanol, green policy my ar$e. Its all about tax revenue.

Voodoomelon

I only noticed recently that there's actually an LPG pump about 1 mile from my house on the Dundalk road. Not sure if it's active though.

CiniO

unkel wrote: »

Is that one recent enough?

Does that make unleaded about €1.16 with the zloty at €0.23? Not bad

Something like that. But those prices are probably from last months, when zloty was bit stronger to euro.
Now it probably makes about €1.20 per litre unleaded 95.

PS. I wouldn't say it's not bad, when you compare it to average salary there :P

Say for Polish people it costs about the same zloty's as for Irish people Euros.

So imagine you've got petrol for a €5 per litre;P

That's why LPG is popular there.

Stinicker

When I was in Thailand earlier this year the amount of vehicles running on LPG was amazing, jumped in a Taxi at the Airport a Corrolla and myself a the girl whom was seated next to me on the flight just happened to be staying on the same street so we shared a taxi, bloody hell my suitcase had to go in the front seat as the boot had two gas cannisters in there. Even some of the lorries had four of five Gas tanks stacked up on each other behind the cab so CNG is very popular there too.

unkel

CiniO wrote: »

PS. I wouldn't say it's not bad, when you compare it to average salary there :P

Aye, a quick google showed me that the minimum wage in Poland per month is about the same as the minimum wage in Ireland per week

CJhaughey

Isn't the advantage with LPG also the lack of emissions?
I think they are very clean running vehicles IIRC.

commited

Vertakill wrote: »

You've totally pulled that 'fact' out of your a$s.

It's about -10% mpg on it's petrol equivalent because it contains less energy.

However, it's cheaper so that counters the energy issue. But it would need to be a lot cheaper and a lot more readily available for it to ever kick off here.

I'm running a 4.0 Ford Falcon in Oz at the moment. I've done about 35000k in it so far this year and LPG consumes 50% more than Petrol. However, LPG is about 60c/litre and petrol is about $1.40 so it's a bit of a no brainer to run it on LPG practically all of the time. We can get 1200kms out of the two tanks which was handy for crossing the nullabor.

I'd run LPG at home if it was available, but they need to bring the tax system into line.

Matt Simis

commited wrote: »

I'm running a 4.0 Ford Falcon in Oz at the moment. I've done about 35000k in it so far this year and LPG consumes 50% more than Petrol.

Hmm, TBH thats woefuel economy.. either a really old LPG system or not working correct.

commited

It was fitted in 1999 but pretty standard for this car here, in fact other people running LPG claim a similar consumption. There is 293k on the clock and it's still going fine!

Works out at about 14l/100km on LPG.

kerten

commited wrote: »

I'm running a 4.0 Ford Falcon in Oz at the moment. I've done about 35000k in it so far this year and LPG consumes 50% more than Petrol. However, LPG is about 60c/litre and petrol is about $1.40 so it's a bit of a no brainer to run it on LPG practically all of the time. We can get 1200kms out of the two tanks which was handy for crossing the nullabor.

I'd run LPG at home if it was available, but they need to bring the tax system into line.

I never saw 50% difference between petrol and lpg consumption with same car even very old conversion kits. 15-20% tops for old kits.

Are you sure you measured petrol consumption correctly?

Generally you don't wanna fill petrol tank to brim when you use lpg

Old conversion kits(that doesn't communicate with ECU) can be adjusted for rich mixture for better performance. Still 50% difference in volume tells me incorrect measurement or a problem.

unkel

Matt Simis wrote: »

Hmm, TBH thats woefuel economy.. either a really old LPG system or not working correct.

+1

The rule of thumb I remember in the 70s / 80s was 15-20% more consumption. In a modern system consumption shouldn't be more than 10% extra over petrol

turbodiesel

unkel wrote: »

+1

The rule of thumb I remember in the 70s / 80s was 15-20% more consumption. In a modern system consumption shouldn't be more than 10% extra over petrol

Yeah but if the price of LPG is half the price of petrol then you make a saving......

turbodiesel

I think a couple of VW Caravelle taxi's used it years ago when they were 2.5 petrol engines.

As far as ai know the BOC gas plant in JFK industrial estate retails LPG......

unkel

turbodiesel wrote: »

Yeah but if the price of LPG is half the price of petrol then you make a saving......

Depends on the circumstances!

I.e. in the Netherlands the motor tax is 3 times as high (roughly, from memory) for a car with an LPG installation compared to the exact same car without the installation

Then there is the cost of the installation itself, maintenance and lost opportunity cost

And then of course the break even point can be calculated taking into account the extra fuel use of a car with the installation. If your mileage is higher than the break even mileage, you will indeed be making a saving

commited

kerten wrote: »

I never saw 50% difference between petrol and lpg consumption with same car even very old conversion kits. 15-20% tops for old kits.

Are you sure you measured petrol consumption correctly?

Generally you don't wanna fill petrol tank to brim when you use lpg

Old conversion kits(that doesn't communicate with ECU) can be adjusted for rich mixture for better performance. Still 50% difference in volume tells me incorrect measurement or a problem.

No problem with me measuring consumption correctly - we've done some serious KM's in one hit running the LPG down to empty and then switching to petrol. It's surprising that you guys are saying this as when I first started running it, I thought it was odd but the Aussie forums said the LPG consumption was normal.

On petrol - 9-10l/100km on a trip
On LPG - 14-15l/100km on a trip.

I'll stick the question up again on the oz forums that have a lot of experience with LPG. I'll be irritated if there has been a problem as I could have saved a bloody fortune at this stage.

unkel

commited wrote: »

I thought it was odd but the Aussie forums said the LPG consumption was normal.

On petrol - 9-10l/100km on a trip
On LPG - 14-15l/100km on a trip.

That LPG consumption is quite normal if you drive an Aussie car (V8 ute or somesort)

Which you obviously don't given your petrol consumption. Are you sure on the forum they are saying that 50% more fuel consumption is normal? If they do, then maybe the type of installation / legal requirement or something else is very different from here

commited

It's an Aussie car - '97 4.0 Straight 6 Ford Falcon Wagon. I'm pretty light on fuel in general if I want to be have always seen lots of MPG's from my previous cars so I reckon 30mpg isn't too bad out of a 14 year old auto bus knocking on the door of 300000km's!

When I posted on the Aussie forum, I posted petrol and LPG consumptions. I was told that the LPG consumption was normal and the petrol consumption was pretty good. I'll try again though. Bit late really as most of our high KM journeys are over now that we've settled here! Car does about 20km/week now.

Matt Simis

Ill have to check mine again when I get more LPG in it, but my Audi V8 (4.2 340bhp) doesnt show that big a difference on LPG.

arek492

Got my Hyundai Santa FE 2.0 petrol converted and it looks like:
LGP cost 95-98 c/L
Petrol 1.52 eur
Diference 54 - 57 cents
Consuption of LPG about 15% moore than petrol.
Car driving gr8, no problems.
No power loss.
4th generation LPG kit ( sequential injection)
Cost of Conversion 1200 eur

knipex

pcardin wrote: »

Backarse country...

It works everywhere in EU. I had few LPG monster too. I think tax is too high to make it interesting here but could be something else.

So because we look at the actuall costs of doing conversion, running cost and then do a cost benefit and realise that an lpg conversion in Ireland makes as much financial sense as buying property we are a backward country ?

Blame motor tax (look at the price of motor tax on a 2.5 ltr mondeo each year)
Price of LPG
Actual savings on fuel cost based on avaeage mileage less increased cost of road tax.

Now go look at the price of a small engine petrol car or diesel and the running costs .

Which decision would you make ????

CiniO

arek492 wrote: »

Got my Hyundai Santa FE 2.0 petrol converted and it looks like:
LGP cost 95-98 c/L
Petrol 1.52 eur
Diference 54 - 57 cents
Consuption of LPG about 15% moore than petrol.
Car driving gr8, no problems.
No power loss.
4th generation LPG kit ( sequential injection)
Cost of Conversion 1200 eur

Where did you get a conversion done?

Old McGroin

I have a 1.8 litre diesel 08 Ford Focus hatchback, my journey to work everyday is roughly 45km (one way), would it make sense to get the lpg conversion done for me?

Cheers.

commited

unkel wrote: »

+1

The rule of thumb I remember in the 70s / 80s was 15-20% more consumption. In a modern system consumption shouldn't be more than 10% extra over petrol

Thought you lads might be interested about this:
http://www.webwombat.com.au/motoring/news_reports/dual-fuel-ve-commodore.htm

There is a modern, vapour injection system on a modern V6 commodore returning a 36% increase in fuel consumption for LPG.

Considering mine is an older mixer system, then 50% is about right.

WitAce

Guys,
We're starting LPG conversion business in Ireland and we will also sell LPG. It will cost 69c per Liter incl. VAT. If you have any questions you can catch me on info@vv-tech-lpg.com
There will be a website soon and I will keep you posted.

CiniO

WitAce wrote: »

Guys,
We're starting LPG conversion business in Ireland and we will also sell LPG. It will cost 69c per Liter incl. VAT. If you have any questions you can catch me on info@vv-tech-lpg.com
There will be a website soon and I will keep you posted.

I've seen this as well on some other thread.
Anyway - I'm just wondering how that possible you'll be selling LPG at 69c per litre, while almost everywhere else it costs over €1.
The only garage which sells LPG anywhere reasonably close to me is in castlebar, and few days ago I've seen a price of €1.05.

Does that mean that all those garages selling LPG have such a big markup on it?

Where will your place be located?
I assume somewhere around Dublin, so no good for me unfortunately.

How much would be the average cost to convert average petrol car with a tank in spare wheel place? (I remember you were saying something about 4th generation conversions - LPG injection).

unkel

CiniO wrote: »

I've seen this as well on some other thread.

Yeah I remember it too. Just doing some digging and the excise on LPG is indeed only a fraction of that on petrol / diesel

Excise on petrol is €0.58 per litre and LPG is only €0.09 per litre. And there's the VAT over the excise as well. Linky

It would be interesting to see if someone will indeed offer LPG for €0.69 per litre including all taxes and duties. If it happens, my guess is a lot of recent diesel buyers will cry and a lot of owners of older petrol cars who do large-ish mileage will laugh

commited

WitAce wrote: »

Guys,
We're starting LPG conversion business in Ireland and we will also sell LPG. It will cost 69c per Liter incl. VAT. If you have any questions you can catch me on info@vv-tech-lpg.com
There will be a website soon and I will keep you posted.

If you do, you'll have my custom. Certainly want to look at this as an option but I'd have to know that it's going to be a solid option going forward. I'd happily pay the high road tax of a large engine if I could run it on LPG.

Sobanek

commited wrote: »

If you do, you'll have my custom. Certainly want to look at this as an option but I'd have to know that it's going to be a solid option going forward. I'd happily pay the high road tax of a large engine if I could run it on LPG.

Me too, I'd be more than happy to spend a couple of yoyos on a petrol car (I'll have to get my own before September ) and then do an LPG conversion.

WitAce

I'll try to answer some of your questions.
1. We'll have our first filling station in Kilcullen Co. Kildare, just 2 km off the M9. The next will follow. We're planning to have another one in Naas in Spring and hopefully few more in 2012.
2. We're only starting so there will be a Launch Offer and the average price of conversion for 4 cylinder car will be 1k Euro with 2 years warranty (no mileage limit). Conversion kit will be fully integrated with OBD II and EOBD ECU's. This basically means that the fuel-air mixture will be adjusted based on information coming from car's ECU.
3. The price for LPG on other filling stations is determined by a very limited market. This is why the owners have such a high mark ups on this product. They still have to maintain LPG tanks and pay rent for them.
LPG is considered a "greener option" to petrol and diesel and duty is much lower. It is based on the weight of the product and due to the fact that 1kg of LPG gives about 2L in volume, the tax on 1L of LPG is even lower (comparing to petrol and diesel).
We hope to have our station opened within a week or two, and once it is in operation we'll have our website setup. I will keep you posted

unkel

WitAce wrote: »

I'll try to answer some of your questions.
1. We'll have our first filling station in Kilcullen Co. Kildare, just 2 km off the M9. The next will follow. We're planning to have another one in Naas in Spring and hopefully few more in 2012.
2. We're only starting so there will be a Launch Offer and the average price of conversion for 4 cylinder car will be 1k Euro with 2 years warranty (no mileage limit). Conversion kit will be fully integrated with OBD II and EOBD ECU's. This basically means that the fuel-air mixture will be adjusted based on information coming from car's ECU.
3. The price for LPG on other filling stations is determined by a very limited market. This is why the owners have such a high mark ups on this product. They still have to maintain LPG tanks and pay rent for them.
LPG is considered a "greener option" to petrol and diesel and duty is much lower. It is based on the weight of the product and due to the fact that 1kg of LPG gives about 2L in volume, the tax on 1L of LPG is even lower (comparing to petrol and diesel).
We hope to have our station opened within a week or two, and once it is in operation we'll have our website setup. I will keep you posted

Make sure you will keep us posted!

This will interest a lot of people: say you do 10k miles per year and your petrol consumption is 25MPG and say LPG consumption is 10% more than petrol. Say petrol is €1.50 and LPG is €0.70

And the conversion is €1,000 incl. VAT / fittting etc.

Then even taking into account interest loss on the conversion you have to pay up front, that the installation pays for itself within a year (fuel used is €1,400 instead of €2,700 so saving is €1,300 per year)

Sobanek

LPG's been very successful in Poland and hopefully, people can start converting here!

CiniO

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Anything that is a good idea or can potential save people money will get taxed to high heavens. If somebody invented a car that ran of good thoughts and imagination the goverment would find a way of taxing that.

I don't know.
LPG in Poland became popular about 20 years ago.
Since then it was always about half price of petrol.
They are scaring us every year that it's going to get heavily taxed, but for the last 20 years it didn't happen. It's still half price of petrol.

I'm not sure about figure now, but remember few years ago, from about 15 million vehicles registered in Poland, there were 2 million converted to LPG, which makes it over 13%

Sobanek

CiniO wrote: »

I don't know.
LPG in Poland became popular about 20 years ago.
Since then it was always about half price of petrol.
They are scaring us every year that it's going to get heavily taxed, but for the last 20 years it didn't happen. It's still half price of petrol.

I'm not sure about figure now, but remember few years ago, from about 15 million vehicles registered in Poland, there were 2 million converted to LPG, which makes it over 13%

Poland


Polish road sign indicating an Autogas station.


Poland is one of the oldest and most successful markets in Europe. In 2009, there were 6050 autogas refuelling stations and 2,170,000 autogas vehicles on the road. The number of autogas vehicles in Poland increased by 4% in 2009, however autogas sales decreased by 3.7%. This is mostly due to older vehicles being replaced with newer, more fuel efficient ones. Almost half of Poland's LPG comes from Russia.[23] As of 2011, the number of autogas vehicles exceeded 2,500,000.[24]

Eric Cartman

anyone know of any e38 7er's particularly the 740 or 750 on lpg ? if so how does the car take to it , if any of these LPG businesses take off ill be right on the bandwaggon

Sobanek

Eric Cartman wrote: »

anyone know of any e38 7er's particularly the 740 or 750 on lpg ? if so how does the car take to it , if any of these LPG businesses take off ill be right on the bandwaggon

I wouldn't recommend putting the LPG on the V12, however the V8 from what I know seems to be fine.