You reap what you sow

murraykil

After the recent riots in England, multi-culturism in England and their ability, or lack ther-of, to handle the integration of immigrants into an inclusive society, what is the future of England, where the native English man or woman are on their way to becoming a minority in their own native land?

The Government is trying to change their immigration policy to limit the number of immigrants, but this is meeting with opposition and legal difficulties. Also it does not address the real issue of integration.

Essentially, it is up to individual citizens to integrate with each other and accept eachother, but how will the native English accept being increasingly a minority, which they already are in many areas?

Without proper Government policies, these riots might be only the tip of the iceberg.

What affect might it have on Ireland? Or the UK's member ship of the EU, which is being discussed due to the economic crisis, but may be further put into question should it affect the UK's ability to determine their own immigration policies; as in the example of the cat case!

This 2007 article details how, at that time, English was "a minority language in 1,300 schools".

In 2010 it had increased to 1500 schools where "Children with English as their home language are among the minority of pupils in more than 1,500 schools across England." This article also mentions how "in 1997, when Labour came to power, there were 866 schools in England where more than 50% of pupils had English as a second language."

I see the rise in popularity of gaelscoileanna in Ireland as having the effect of allowing immigrants into Ireland integrate more easily into Irish society. Amongst African freinds of mine who have immigrated into Ireland in the last few years, they see sending their children to gaelscoileanna as a huge part in helping their children, and thus themselves, intergrate into Irish society.

laoch na mona

England doesn't have a culture that each english man would consider english we have a distinct culture. You cant integrate people into a culture that doesn't exist

murraykil

I am talking about the integration of immingrants into English society with regard to social issues such as education. I am talking about how the native English speaker is becoming a minority in England and how this may affect integration in the future.

LondonIrish90

2010 estimates suggest England is currently 87.5% white. I don't think the native English speaker is becoming a minority just yet, and as long as the conservatives ensure that their new immigration policies are pushed through then I'm confident there will be English speakers around for a while to come.

Another 6% are South Asian, I'd suggest that as a group they have a better grasp of English than the 87% whites.

LondonIrish90

laoch na mona wrote: »

England doesn't have a culture that each english man would consider english we have a distinct culture. You cant integrate people into a culture that doesn't exist

England has as much of a culture as Ireland.

Saying that, I completely agree that the impending social revolution in England cannot come soon enough.

I hate labour for what they did to this country since 2001 and I always will. They have put it on the brink of oblivion with unchecked immigration and the systematic destruction of the English nation.

John Prescott - "There is no such thing as England". Fat, disgusting man. The moment his heart stops will fill me with joy.

cavedave

To be able to say that "the multicultural experiment is failing" you would need as a control a unicultural society that was succeeding. North Korea is not doing so well

murraykil

LondonIrish90 wrote: »

2010 estimates suggest England is currently 87.5% white. I don't think the native English speaker is becoming a minority just yet, and as long as the conservatives ensure that their new immigration policies are pushed through then I'm confident there will be English speakers around for a while to come.

Another 6% are South Asian, I'd suggest that as a group they have a better grasp of English than the 87% whites.

LondonIrish90 wrote: »

England has as much of a culture as Ireland.

Saying that, I completely agree that the impending social revolution in England cannot come soon enough.

I hate labour for what they did to this country since 2001 and I always will. They have put it on the brink of oblivion with unchecked immigration and the systematic destruction of the English nation.

John Prescott - "There is no such thing as England". Fat, disgusting man. The moment his heart stops will fill me with joy.

Do you think that situations like the cat case, along with the economic situation, might have more people calling for the UK to exit the EU so that they can have more control over their immigration policies? I think this is already being proposed due to the economic situation.

I could also see that if the immigration issue is not tackled, then there is huge potential for further social up-heaval in the UK. There is potential for increased social divides amongst the various communities and thus potential for extreme organsiations such as the Muslim Brotherhood and the BNP getting more popular support.

Chuck Stone

murraykil wrote: »

After the recent riots in England, multi-culturism in England and their ability, or lack ther-of, to handle the integration of immigrants into an inclusive society, what is the future of England, where the native English man or woman are on their way to becoming a minority in their own native land?

Are you saying that the rioters were not 'native English'? What does native English even mean?

Without proper Government policies, these riots might be only the tip of the iceberg.

Do you see what you're doing there? You're linking non-'native English' people to the rioting. Do you have some proof for this? I was under the impression that the rioters were well and truly English.

What affect might it have on Ireland?

None?

Or the UK's member ship of the EU,

None?

I see the rise in popularity of gaelscoileanna in Ireland as having the effect of allowing immigrants into Ireland integrate more easily into Irish society.

I don't. Moreover would that not pose problems for parents with no Irish?

maygitchell

Chuck for president!

hangon

DOH, is nothing ever learned? Pay and beg for immigrants during a hugh economic upturn give them the crappy jobs that no Irish or English People want then turn on them when a boom comes to an end.
funny thing is if people check out the figures the emigration figures are being lowered by the immigration figures because Irish people cannot, or do not want to work minimum wage.

Globalisation.......well i wish i had gone on the protest march's.

murraykil

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Are you saying that the rioters were not 'native English'? What does native English even mean?


Do you see what you're doing there? You're linking non-'native English' people to the rioting. Do you have some proof for this? I was under the impression that the rioters were well and truly English.

Yes the rioting in London and Birmingham began in immigrant communities. The proof is all over the Internet for you to see with your own eyes through the many hours of video footage and commentary from those who live in these communities. Should one have such fear as you do to tell it like it is for fear of being considered racist or some such thing, then the root cause of these problems will remain and even worsen.

By native English I mean the Anglo-Saxons. By immigrants I mean Asians, Caribbeans, etc, many of whom have immigrated to the UK in the last century. Despite your attempts to twist my words to be racist or imply that I'm saying that these people should not be in England, this is not what I'm saying. I'm saying that Government policy has failed on immigration and failed to help integrate immigrants into British society and now there is increasing divide amongst various the various communities in England.

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I don't. Moreover would that not pose problems for parents with no Irish?

No, typically what a child learns in school should not cause problems for their parents and learning a new language does not erase a previous language from your mind! The parents and kids can still talk to each other! Many of the ones I know try to learn Irish themselves along with their children and this increases the parent child bond!

Chuck Stone

murraykil wrote: »

By native English I mean the Anglo-Saxons. By immigrants I mean Asians, Caribbeans, etc, many of whom have immigrated to the UK in the last century.

So 2nd and 3rd generation off spring of former immigrants do not qualify as native english?

So to qualify as a 'native English' person you must have Anglo-Saxon heritage? Anglo-Saxons were immigrants too!

What about the millions of people in England who have at least one Irish grandparent?

Your terminology just doesn't work.

Despite your attempts to twist my words to be racist

I'm not trying to twist your words I'm trying to distill what it is you're trying to say.

I'm saying that Government policy has failed on immigration and failed to help integrate immigrants into British society and now there is increasing divide amongst various the various communities in England.

Is this simply your opinion or do you have some sort of evidence for this failure?

No, typically what a child learns in school should not cause problems for their parents and learning a new language does not erase a previous language from your mind!

Obviously. The point I'm making that newcomers to Ireland will not have Irish so they can help their children with school work seeing as gaelscoils (sp?) teach through Irish.

murraykil

Chuck Stone wrote: »

So 2nd and 3rd generation off spring of former immigrants do not qualify as native english?

So to qualify as a 'native English' person you must have Anglo-Saxon heritage? Anglo-Saxons were immigrants too!

What about the millions of people in England who have at least one Irish grandparent?

Your terminology just doesn't work.

I'm not trying to twist your words I'm trying to distill what it is you're trying to say.

I don't see how I can further help you with your inability to distill what it is I am trying to say! This is possibly a subject which is beyond your comprehension.

The terms used are required as they allow us to go to the heart of the matter. The native English immigrated to that land centuries ago, just like the native Americans, immigrated to the Americas centuries ago, just like we all immigrated from Africa back in the day! :pac:

The immigrants to which I refer to are those who immigrated to the UK in the last century and even into the current century. Typically these immigrants form their own communities and the lack of integration amongst each others communities and more especially the communities of the native English has created social divides.

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Is this simply your opinion or do you have some sort of evidence for this failure?

Again, as with the proof you asked for in regard to the riots, it's widely available to you should you choose to look for it. It won't take you long to find it! It's current news! The riots can be seen as a result of this as well as the Governments currents attempts to modify their immigration policies.

Also going back to a previous query of yours where you seemed bemused that the immigration issue could cause debate on the UK's membership membership of the EU, then you should read the example and reason I gave! Plus it's somewhat funny!

"The evidence concerning the joint acquisition of Maya (the cat) by the appellant and his partner reinforces my conclusion on the strength and quality of the family life that appellant and his partner enjoy."

The role of the cat in the decision not to deport may have been exaggerated, but the "excessive uses of Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights - the right to family life" may not be, thus may be used by some as a means to question the UK's continued particaption in the EU.

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Obviously. The point I'm making that newcomers to Ireland will not have Irish so they can help their children with school work seeing as gaelscoils (sp?) teach through Irish.

Ahh, ok, yes that will cause any non-Irish speaking parent difficulty with helping their kids with their homework! It is one of the reasons my buddies gave for learning it. Their kids were young so the level of Irish was more accessible to them. Hopefully the teachers can make up with the other parents!

Chuck Stone

murraykil wrote: »

I don't see how I can further help you with your inability to distill what it is I am trying to say! This is possibly a subject which is beyond your comprehension.

I think it may be beyond the comprehension of anyone. You've used terms like 'native English' which is something you've just made up and is nothing near an official term.

It is a national origin myth.

The arrival of the Anglo-Saxons ... is still perceived as an important and interesting event because it is believed to have been a key factor in the identity of the present inhabitants of the British Isles, involving migration on such a scale as to permanently change the population of south-east Britain, and making the English a distinct and different people from the Celtic Irish, Welsh and Scots ....this is an example of a national origin myth ... and shows why there are seldom simple answers to questions about origins

Catherine Hills, The Origins of the English (London: Duckworth, Duckworth Debates in Archaeology, 2003), p. 18.

The terms used are required as they allow us to go to the heart of the matter.

They absolutely do not. When the rioters were being prosecuted their ethnicity wasn't even recorded so I don't see how you can descibe them as non-native English (that unusual category you've created to make a poorly formed argument).

Again, as with the proof you asked for in regard to the riots, it's widely available to you should you choose to look for it. It won't take you long to find it! It's current news! The riots can be seen as a result of this as well as the Governments currents attempts to modify their immigration policies.

You make the claim you provide the proof. Asking me to go looking for proof for your claims is intellectually lazy not to mention foolhardy given your ambiguous terminology.

murraykil

British public 'are more prejudiced against minorities after riots'

Research on public attitudes before and after the four nights of violence finds more people feel British culture is under threat

The academics say the findings, which appear on the University of Nottingham Ballots and Bullets blog, also revealed a rise in levels of prejudice and intolerance towards minority groups.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/sep/05/british-public-prejudiced-minorities-riots

# EDL and BNP singled out as extremist groups who may try to inflame racial tension
# Residents claim EDL involved in organising vigilantes there on Tuesday night

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2024707/UK-riots-2011-Met-Polices-Tim-Godwin-warns-EDL-hijack-vigilante-patrols.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

South Bank University student Jake Manu, 28, said Mr Duggan's death and the subsequent lack of dialogue from the police triggered the riot.
But he said tensions - some racial - had been bubbling for a long time.
"The police never talk to us, they ignore us, they don't think we're human in this area," he said.
"We get pulled over all the time like criminals. If you're wearing a black hood, [if] you're a black man, they pull you over for no reason."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14436529

LondonIrish90

Of course extremist groups are on the rise. This is the fault of the more moderate political parties alone. They have made a shambles out of the country. What right did Blair's government have to all but destroy 1000 years of English society?

I'm wary on groups of non-whites, I make no apologies for that. They need to learn they are the newcomers to this island. Their cultures, their ways of life, the way they interact (african women being the most arrogant, deluded, and downright rude people you will see - be it blocking pavements, talking loudly in horrific african tones, just sauntering into the road) are alien to this land.

It is going to be immensely difficult for the native English (those of german and celtic origin who have dwelled on these Islands for thousands of years) to claim the country back. I don't know of any solution, but it will have to be groundbreaking. So far, paying ethnics to return to their native land seems the best.

murraykil

A scheme which assisted "immigrants who have acquired British citizenship return home if they have problems integrating or finding work" is to be scrapped.

This suggests that it's unlikely that the scheme of actually paying immigrants to leave will be used. I remember that similar ideas have been suggested in other European countries in the recent past; such as Spain, France and Denmark, even Ireland.

The immigration issue is not unique to the UK, but the riots should serve as a warning that there is a ticking time-bomb that needs to be defused.

joseph brand

Anytime I hear this argument I think of one thing.

For hundreds of years, the English invaded most countries in the world. They really got to know a lot of nationalities and over time, people from their colonies traveled to England, and settled. Now you wanna moan about all them for'nors in your country. Well Boo Hoo. YOU started it.

A quick google returned this list of countries who were 'started on' by the English.

Anguilla, Antigua and Barbuda, Australia, the Bahamas, Barbados, Bermuda, Belize, the British Indian Ocean Territory, the British Virgin Islands, Canada, the Cayman Islands, the Falkland Islands, Gibraltar, Grenada, Guam, Guernsey, Guyana, Ireland, Isle of Man, Jamaica, Jersey, Montserrat, Nauru, New Zealand, Pitcairn Islands, Saint Helena, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Singapore, South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands, Trinidad and Tobago, the Turks and Caicos Islands, the United Kingdom, the U.S. Virgin Islands, and the United States.

Take an atlas, spin it, and point at a country. Likelihood is it was invaded by English troops at some point in its history.

problemchimp

LondonIrish90 wrote: »

Of course extremist groups are on the rise. This is the fault of the more moderate political parties alone. They have made a shambles out of the country. What right did Blair's government have to all but destroy 1000 years of English society?

I'm wary on groups of non-whites, I make no apologies for that. They need to learn they are the newcomers to this island. Their cultures, their ways of life, the way they interact (african women being the most arrogant, deluded, and downright rude people you will see - be it blocking pavements, talking loudly in horrific african tones, just sauntering into the road) are alien to this land.

It is going to be immensely difficult for the native English (those of german and celtic origin who have dwelled on these Islands for thousands of years) to claim the country back. I don't know of any solution, but it will have to be groundbreaking. So far, paying ethnics to return to their native land seems the best.

Talking loudly in horrific African tones? Oh Christ I've never heard such a shiit argument in all my life. I can never take your posts seriously again, unless you are being sarcastic, then I applaud your humour.

Pride Fighter

LondonIrish90 wrote: »

England has as much of a culture as Ireland.

Saying that, I completely agree that the impending social revolution in England cannot come soon enough.

I hate labour for what they did to this country since 2001 and I always will. They have put it on the brink of oblivion with unchecked immigration and the systematic destruction of the English nation.

John Prescott - "There is no such thing as England". Fat, disgusting man. The moment his heart stops will fill me with joy.

With a name like London Irish and a probable beneficiary of immigration can you not see the hypocrisy of your own post??

Chuck Stone

Women from the continent of Africa? Way to generalise.

Probably the worst thread I've read in politics which lasted longer than a few hours.

I'm out.

LondonIrish90

Pride Fighter wrote: »

With a name like London Irish and a probable beneficiary of immigration can you not see the hypocrisy of your own post??

Celtic people have lived in England for thousands upon thousands of years, so I don't really see it as anything like the same sort of thing.

England has become an outpost of the United Nations, a refugee camp of a scale never seen in the history of humanity. For anyone who would define themselves as English it is not a good thing. There is a homeland for every other group, but no homeland for the Englishman. It is unfortunate. What makes it worse is that no respect is paid to the bygone traditions of the English peoples. People flock to England, and turn areas into nigerian, somalian, arabic, jamaican, pakistani ghettos.

I fear that in 30 or so years, England will resemble the Northern Ireland of the 20th century - European areas divided from other ethnicities areas.

LondonIrish90

problemchimp wrote: »

Talking loudly in horrific African tones? Oh Christ I've never heard such a shiit argument in all my life. I can never take your posts seriously again, unless you are being sarcastic, then I applaud your humour.

I doubt you would have taken anything I posted in the past very seriously anyway!

problemchimp

LondonIrish90 wrote: »

I doubt you would have taken anything I posted in the past very seriously anyway!

Possibly, but I'm not sure to be honest. Are you really serious about the tone of African womens voices, now think before you type.

Boulevardier

This thread ia a load of racist horse-manure. I hope at least that people on it will not try denying that they are racist.

Hayte

This thread is horrible.

murraykil

It seems that the fear of sounding racist could be the very reason that the issue of immigration in the UK has not been properly tackled and thus has been allowed to reach such a boiling point.

The potential rise of the extreme parties such as the EDP and the BNP amongst the native English, or for the PC crowd, the target market of the EDP and the BNP, should be an issue of concern.

The failure of the Government to tackle issues such as the tension amongst immigrant communities and the police in those areas needs to be addressed. The increased 'prejudiced against minorities after riots'.

The fact that the Governments has to come up with ideas like paying immigrants to go home as a way to help deal with the immigration issue doesn't show much potential for the issue being dealt with.

The Goverment has a huge problem on their hands, the tension between immigrant communitities and what may be seen as the target market of the EDP and the BNP are not going away anytime soon.

T runner

murraykil wrote: »

By native English I mean the Anglo-Saxons. By immigrants I mean Asians, Caribbeans, etc, many of whom have immigrated to the UK.......

But what about the native British who lived in Britian before Angles, saxons and Vikings arrived. Surely they are the native Britons. Do you mean Anglo Saxon in race? Some people suggest that there wasnt a complete xenoxide of local Britons in teh area now known as England and that the population in most of England might actually be mainly of local Britich Celtic stock.

So what do you mean?

T runner

LondonIrish90 wrote: »

Celtic people have lived in England for thousands upon thousands of years, so I don't really see it as anything like the same sort of thing.

Shows how much you know! England as an entity did not exist until 927. So teh Celts have been living in Britain for millenia and in England for just over a thousand years. The English made their typically peaceful arrival there not long before......

([/QUOTE]

murraykil

T runner wrote: »

But what about the native British who lived in Britian before Angles, saxons and Vikings arrived. Surely they are the native Britons. Do you mean Anglo Saxon in race? Some people suggest that there wasnt a complete xenoxide of local Britons in teh area now known as England and that the population in most of England might actually be mainly of local Britich Celtic stock.

So what do you mean?

The target market of the EDP and the BNP.

Davidth88

This thread made me think of Enoch and the ' Rivers of Blood ' speech

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rivers_of_Blood_speech


I am disturbed not by the immigration into the UK , but what happens with the PC brigade start worrying about what might upset people. ie the stories you read in the right wing rags like the Mail about Christmas being banned, poppies being banned from sale , etc .

There is a very sizable part of the ' white English ' people that are feeling more and more isolated and hemmed in within their own country. There will be a backlash at some point , and it will be something quite innocent that kicks it off .

I loath people like the EDL ( BNP/NF ) , but each time a story like that appears it causes people to maybe not join them , but to sympathise with them .

Boulevardier

"I am disturbed not by the immigration into the UK , but what happens with the PC brigade start worrying about what might upset people. ie the stories you read in the right wing rags like the Mail about Christmas being banned, poppies being banned from sale , etc ."

The thing about these stories is that not one of them, not one, ever turns out to be true.

That suggests to me that the answer is to control what is printed by the mail, rather than "controlling" immigration.

T runner

murraykil wrote: »

The target market of the EDP and the BNP.

Racists and potential racists?

Davidth88

Boulevardier wrote: »

"I am disturbed not by the immigration into the UK , but what happens with the PC brigade start worrying about what might upset people. ie the stories you read in the right wing rags like the Mail about Christmas being banned, poppies being banned from sale , etc ."

The thing about these stories is that not one of them, not one, ever turns out to be true.

That suggests to me that the answer is to control what is printed by the mail, rather than "controlling" immigration.

Ohh but they are ' true ' , they usually have some ' jobsworth ' person deciding that people would be upset if we have a Christmas tree or whatever when actually no one actually would be upset .

Of course the Mail ( as an example ) puts their own spin on them which makes them feel worse. So for example a hospital decides it shouldn't have a Nativity crib any more , the headline is 'Hospital Bans Christmas' or such like

Ill find a few examples if you want , but so many of them have already been posted elsewhere.

murraykil

Immigration is already controlled, it's one of the few things the Government does. Tighter controls and reduced numbers are now being discussed. It's the integration of immigrants which they seem incapable or unwilling to deal with, which is the more pressing concern.

Nodin

murraykil wrote: »

After the recent riots in England, multi-culturism in England and their ability, or lack ther-of, to handle the integration of immigrants into an inclusive society, what is the future of England, where the native English man or woman are on their way to becoming a minority in their own native land?
..............

...if something comes up that shows the majority of rioters were from the EU accession states or first generation arrivals, I'd say you have a point. Until then, I think the term "immigrants" is being misused there.

murraykil wrote: »

Yes the rioting in London and Birmingham began in immigrant communities. The proof is all over the Internet for you to see with your own eyes through the many hours of video footage and commentary from those who live in these communities. ..............

"minority". Theres a word for ye.

I also saw footage which showed a wonderful amount of cross community spirit in which Caucasian, African and Asian came together to rob and chuck rocks at the cops. Manchester seemed to have a very large "white" contingent visiting the local sporting goods outlets. Perhaps theres another element acting here....?

Richard

joseph brand wrote: »

Anytime I hear this argument I think of one thing.

For hundreds of years, the English invaded most countries in the world. They really got to know a lot of nationalities and over time, people from their colonies traveled to England, and settled. Now you wanna moan about all them for'nors in your country. Well Boo Hoo. YOU started it.

A quick google returned this list of countries who were 'started on' by the English.

Anguilla, Antigua and Barbuda, Australia, the Bahamas, Barbados, Bermuda, Belize, the British Indian Ocean Territory, the British Virgin Islands, Canada, the Cayman Islands, the Falkland Islands, Gibraltar, Grenada, Guam, Guernsey, Guyana, Ireland, Isle of Man, Jamaica, Jersey, Montserrat, Nauru, New Zealand, Pitcairn Islands, Saint Helena, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Singapore, South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands, Trinidad and Tobago, the Turks and Caicos Islands, the United Kingdom, the U.S. Virgin Islands, and the United States.

Take an atlas, spin it, and point at a country. Likelihood is it was invaded by English troops at some point in its history.

Yes, I believe that even as we speak, the people of the United Kingdom are waiting to expel the English and hence remove the jackboot of their English oppressors.

Richard

LondonIrish90 wrote: »

Of course extremist groups are on the rise. This is the fault of the more moderate political parties alone. They have made a shambles out of the country. What right did Blair's government have to all but destroy 1000 years of English society?

I'm wary on groups of non-whites, I make no apologies for that. They need to learn they are the newcomers to this island. Their cultures, their ways of life, the way they interact (african women being the most arrogant, deluded, and downright rude people you will see - be it blocking pavements, talking loudly in horrific african tones, just sauntering into the road) are alien to this land.

But why base it on skin colour? Why don't you say that American, Australian, or even Irish white people should go home - they're "newcomers" too. And yet there are many black people whose families have been in England for generatons. Their home is England. They are not newcomers. Sending them to wherever their ancestors came from, somewhere they may have never been, would not just be inhumane, but without logic.

Nodin

LondonIrish90 wrote: »

................

I'm wary on groups of non-whites, I make no apologies for that. They need to learn they are the newcomers to this island. Their cultures, their ways of life, the way they interact (african women being the most arrogant, deluded, and downright rude people you will see - be it blocking pavements, talking loudly in horrific african tones, just sauntering into the road) are alien to this land.

It is going to be immensely difficult for the native English (those of german and celtic origin who have dwelled on these Islands for thousands of years) to claim the country back. I don't know of any solution, but it will have to be groundbreaking. So far, paying ethnics to return to their native land seems the best.

That condemns itself.

murraykil

Nodin wrote: »

...if something comes up that shows the majority of rioters were from the EU accession states or first generation arrivals, I'd say you have a point. Until then, I think the term "immigrants" is being misused there.



"minority". Theres a word for ye.

I also saw footage which showed a wonderful amount of cross community spirit in which Caucasian, African and Asian came together to rob and chuck rocks at the cops. Manchester seemed to have a very large "white" contingent visiting the local sporting goods outlets. Perhaps theres another element acting here....?

There are huge and many social issues in the UK accross all sections of society. The lack of respect for the police and law and order is widespread in all sections of society. I think it has the highest rate of teen pregnancies in Europe, but there is some small progress being made with reagrd to reducing this rate.

I see the immigration issue as adding fuel to the fire. The likes if the EDP and BNP use it as a means to increase social divides and attempt to give credence to their views.

The Government cannot be blamed entirely as it's up to individual citizens to act appropriatly, but the Government needs to ensure that they foster an atmosphere in which this can occur. Immigrant communities such as Tottenham have higher than average unemployment rates.

The lack of respect for the police, and maybe even given by police, is less in these areas also. I think the police in the UK are amongst the best in the world. They do attempt to connect with the community with community liason officers and such, but either this isn't working, it is not being implemented correctly or it is simply no where close enough to the effort needed.

The social issues in the UK are vast and widespread, but further divisions amongst the various communities will only make things worse.

LondonIrish90

Richard wrote: »

But why base it on skin colour? Why don't you say that American, Australian, or even Irish white people should go home - they're "newcomers" too. And yet there are many black people whose families have been in England for generatons. Their home is England. They are not newcomers. Sending them to wherever their ancestors came from, somewhere they may have never been, would not just be inhumane, but without logic.

I agree there is no logic to sending people who have been born in Britain anywhere as there is nowhere to send them to. That is not a suggestion I would think is workable nor right. Whether you agreed with the waves of immigration decades ago, it is not something that is really a point of debate in the 21st century.

I am referring to people who have come to England from places such as Africa and Asia recently to make more money than they could possibly do at home. However, many of them are a burden on society - benefits payments, council housing, over use of services (especially considering they contribute little) and congregation into small ghetto areas with others of their own nationality. It is over the years that I fear this will lead to severe rifts in society. Why can these people not continue to recieve benefit payments from Britain but return to the nation they are from? It would suit them, as they would get a lot more for their money, yet it would suit Britain to an extent, as the ghettos would evaporate, services would be freed up, tensions would decrease. I don't see why this isn't valid.

Hayte

For the love of CHRIST, please say you are trolling...

LondonIrish90

Hayte wrote: »

For the love of CHRIST, please say you are trolling...

While being excessive with my complaints towards the issue earlier in the thread to get the backs up the "all is fine" brigade (who will not recognise a problem until it is too late), I am serious in that I believe that positive action needs to be taken in many areas of England to stop the forming of further ghetto areas and to stop the continuous humiliation of the law abiding tax payer.. Carrot or stick, I don't know. But these issues cannot continue unchecked and I will always maintain that.

murraykil

LondonIrish90 wrote: »

I agree there is no logic to sending people who have been born in Britain anywhere as there is nowhere to send them to. That is not a suggestion I would think is workable nor right. Whether you agreed with the waves of immigration decades ago, it is not something that is really a point of debate in the 21st century.

I am referring to people who have come to England from places such as Africa and Asia recently to make more money than they could possibly do at home. However, many of them are a burden on society - benefits payments, council housing, over use of services (especially considering they contribute little) and congregation into small ghetto areas with others of their own nationality. It is over the years that I fear this will lead to severe rifts in society. Why can these people not continue to recieve benefit payments from Britain but return to the nation they are from? It would suit them, as they would get a lot more for their money, yet it would suit Britain to an extent, as the ghettos would evaporate, services would be freed up, tensions would decrease. I don't see why this isn't valid.

Hayte wrote: »

For the love of CHRIST, please say you are trolling...

That's a much too simplistic view on what's being said here. If you were to read an article already posted here, you might see that this immigration issue is not so black and white, (pardon the pun :pac:), but assiting immigrants to return home is not neccessarily some kind of ethnic cleansing, but can be a beneficial solution for all concerned.

A scheme allowing vulnerable people to return to their country of origin is to be abolished by the government at a cost of millions to the taxpayer.
The travel assistance scheme was introduced almost 40 years ago to help immigrants who have acquired British citizenship return home if they have problems integrating or finding work.

Andy Elvin of Children and Families Across Borders (CFAB), which runs the initiative on behalf of the UK Borders Agency, said it was "ridiculous" that the government spent millions deporting failed asylum seekers but had chosen to scrap help for those on benefits who were keen to go home.

The Home Office is unrepentant, saying it wants to concentrate on targeting "illegal immigration" and that it intends to axe the assistance by April 2012.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/sep/24/axing-migrant-return-scheme-cost?newsfeed=true

mikemac

murraykil wrote: »

The target market of the EDP and the BNP.

You've mentioned EDP a few times here

Do you mean EDL? English Defense League?

Nodin

murraykil wrote: »

There are huge and many social issues in the UK accross all sections of society. The lack of respect for the police and law and order is widespread in all sections of society. I think it has the highest rate of teen pregnancies in Europe, but there is some small progress being made with reagrd to reducing this rate..

.....yet the violence in the recent riots seemed to be more opportunistic. Its not a weekly occurrence.

murraykil wrote: »

I see the immigration issue as adding fuel to the fire. The likes if the EDP and BNP use it as a means to increase social divides and attempt to give credence to their views. ..

Overexaggration and hype should be exposed as lies and not pandered to. I might point out that large numbers of the people targeted by the BNP and the rest were born in Britain. They are not immigrants.

murraykil

Nodin wrote: »

.....yet the violence in the recent riots seemed to be more opportunistic. Its not a weekly occurrence.

The riots went on for days and spread to other cities. It seems to indicate that there are more deeper issues rather than just opportunism to throw a rock at a cop or get free pair of reeboks.

Nodin wrote: »

Overexaggration and hype should be exposed as lies and not pandered to. I might point out that large numbers of the people targeted by the BNP and the rest were born in Britain. They are not immigrants.

[Over]exaggration and hype should be exposed as lies and not pandered to but until the Government offers something to the contrary they won't be.

Nodin

murraykil wrote: »

The riots went on for days and spread to other cities. It seems to indicate that there are more deeper issues rather than just opportunism to throw a rock at a cop or get free pair of reeboks.
.

...not necessarily that much. Disaffected urban youth is not a new thing.

murraykil

mikemac wrote: »

You've mentioned EDP a few times here

Do you mean EDL? English Defense League?

Yes, thanks for the correction!

murraykil

Nodin wrote: »

...not necessarily that much. Disaffected urban youth is not a new thing.

But possibly that much and more! Disaffected urban youth is not a new thing but the scale and duration of the disaffection shown in the riots is a new thing for the current generation of urban youth in the UK.

V_Moth

@murraykil: Are you this guy in disguise?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMVPrYbujZk

:pac: