Will the Greens ever Revive?

Denerick

Considering they did what any political party would do in a comparable situation, and that they were in no way responsible for the events leading to the economic crash, and that they have become a convenient scapegoat for an angry and gullible public, what are the chances of the Green party reviving its electoral fortunes over the next ten years?

I'm sympathetic to the environmental movement (One of the few political movements that isn't inherently hypocritical or willing to offend people's intelligence) and have voted for the Greens on numerous occasions, including the last election.

emo72

I use to vote for them too. But will never forgive them for keeping FF in power
when the country was going bankrupt. And in the end did they they make the country any greener or just introduce more green taxes?

I sent an email to Paul gogarty asking him to pull out so we could have an election. He replied that there was still things to do like puppy farms. Sovereignty of the nation vs puppy farms. Nice one paul.

Rochester

The party that gave us Paul Gogarty? No.

blahfckingblah

Personally I don't see the need for a dedicated Green Party, I would much prefer all of the other partys concentrate a bit more on their environmental policies and they should be pressured to do so. I think having a Green Party leads to more extreme policies that in my opinion we don't need.

ei.sdraob

Denerick wrote: »

Considering they did what any political party would do in a comparable situation

Oh stop will ya :rolleyes:

Denerick wrote: »

and that they were in no way responsible for the events leading to the economic crash.

They are responsible for making it worse by keeping FF in power way past their sell by date, and by focusing on their own agenda and silly nanny state policies which had little relevance to a country which was undergoing such a dramatic change and badly needed new direction and leadership

Denerick wrote: »

Will the Greens ever Revive?

Hopefully not, we do not need Green Fascists in power again.

Het-Field

Not in its current format.

1) It is not in reciept of ANY state funding.
2) It has no Oireachtas members, which prevents it from making any positive contribution to public life
3) It has 3 members on Irish County Councils, which is one more than the rump of The Workers Paty.
4) Its activities will need to be funded by private means, and moribund parties are not attractive for private/corporate donations.
5) The media has no interest in a party which has no influence. The PDs lost a considerable amount of media coverage after the 2007 General Election. The Greens decimation was far greater in scale, and the media has reacted to that by ignoring the Party. The Vincent Browne Show, or the political wing of 4FM will still provide them with a platform, but the likes of RTE will make only limited use of them.
6) Their public representatives have made little impact since their departure from public life. The likes of John Gormley have simply disappeared (his website remains un-updated since February). This would suggest that he has little appetite to lead a revival of the movement.
7) The public's desire for niche parties has been on the wane for some time. Sinn Fein are currently transforming into a mirror image of the populist pragmatist Sinn Fein which shares power up North. The likes of the SP/PBP have made little impact during this Dail, and they are likely to suffer as a result. The Greens are the ultimate niche party, and they were attractive during the good times. We simply cannot afford to focus on hare coarsing, fox hunting, and anti fois gras campaigns, and the public recognises this.
8) The Greens will be inextricably linked to NAMA, IMF Intervention, forced austerity, and economic malaise. Whether that is their fault is another matter, but their name will be sullied by the damage done in terms of the Country's economy. This link will continue to be thrown in their faces if they attempt a revivial.


I simply cannot see any scope for revivial in the Green's current guise. In fact, it may be better for the Green Party to wind up its operation, and start from scratch.

Denerick

emo72 wrote: »

I use to vote for them too. But will never forgive them for keeping FF in power
when the country was going bankrupt. And in the end did they they make the country any greener or just introduce more green taxes?

I sent an email to Paul gogarty asking him to pull out so we could have an election. He replied that there was still things to do like puppy farms. Sovereignty of the nation vs puppy farms. Nice one paul.

Why blame the greens? Blame the moronic people in this country that consistently voted for FF time and time again, even after it became obvious the party was vile and corrupt. One thing I cannot stand is the whinging and crying and moaning of Irish people concerning Fianna Fáil. If they were so dreadful they never would have achieved power. The blame lies with the people, who have consistently proven thelseves lacking in economic, political, or ethical virtue.

matthew8

Denerick wrote: »

Why blame the greens? Blame the moronic people in this country that consistently voted for FF time and time again, even after it became obvious the party was vile and corrupt. One thing I cannot stand is the whinging and crying and moaning of Irish people concerning Fianna Fáil. If they were so dreadful they never would have achieved power. The blame lies with the people, who have consistently proven thelseves lacking in economic, political, or ethical virtue.

So you voted greens at the last election and are calling people who voted FF during the boom years moronic? At least most of them learnt from their mistake.

Het-Field

Denerick wrote: »

Why blame the greens? Blame the moronic people in this country that consistently voted for FF time and time again, even after it became obvious the party was vile and corrupt. One thing I cannot stand is the whinging and crying and moaning of Irish people concerning Fianna Fáil. If they were so dreadful they never would have achieved power. The blame lies with the people, who have consistently proven thelseves lacking in economic, political, or ethical virtue.

The Greens voted for NAMA, the Bailout, and a plethora of measures which are widely considered to be the basis for the exacerbation of the crisis.. They are not blameless, and they deserved what they got.

blahfckingblah

Denerick wrote: »

Why blame the greens? Blame the moronic people in this country that consistently voted for FF time and time again, even after it became obvious the party was vile and corrupt. One thing I cannot stand is the whinging and crying and moaning of Irish people concerning Fianna Fáil. If they were so dreadful they never would have achieved power. The blame lies with the people, who have consistently proven thelseves lacking in economic, political, or ethical virtue.

just because they were good liars doesnt mean that they werent a bad party. Thing is the greens had the power to dissolve the government when it was clear that the electorate were calling for a election but held back

Pete_Cavan

Denerick wrote: »

I'm sympathetic to the environmental movement (One of the few political movements that isn't inherently hypocritical or willing to offend people's intelligence) and have voted for the Greens on numerous occasions, including the last election.

Gormley abusing his position as Minister for the Environment to attempt to prevent an incinerator in Poolbeg, basically favouring the less environmentally friendly landfill, in order to keep his constituents happy is inherently hypocritical.

Denerick

Het-Field wrote: »

The Greens voted for NAMA, the Bailout, and a plethora of measures which are widely considered to be the basis for the exacerbation of the crisis.. They are not blameless, and they deserved what they got.

I have yet to see a convincing argument that anyone would have done anything differently at the time, without the benefit of hindsight. Scapegoatism is alive and well.

Het-Field

Denerick wrote: »

I have yet to see a convincing argument that anyone would have done anything differently at the time, without the benefit of hindsight. Scapegoatism is alive and well.

The bank guarantee could have been achieved in a variety of ways. These alternative ways were canvassed at the time, including a short term blanket guarantee, with rapid fire stress tests on all assets and liabilities. This remains the most attractive alternative. That is evidence that other would have dont things very differently.

Sorry, but the Greens made their bed, and got what they deserved. In fact, they seemed unwilling to engage in the economic&financial side of things, and occasionally publicly claimed that they had nothing to do with economic and fiscal policy, completely ignoring collective cabinet responsibility.

matthew8

Denerick wrote: »

I have yet to see a convincing argument that anyone would have done anything differently at the time, without the benefit of hindsight. Scapegoatism is alive and well.

Using that logic we can excuse FF too.

thebman

Denerick wrote: »

I have yet to see a convincing argument that anyone would have done anything differently at the time, without the benefit of hindsight. Scapegoatism is alive and well.

Your post seems more like scape goating TBH.

It is up to us to prove another party would do something different or the Greens are alright?

I don't think so, just needs to have been alternative options of which there were plenty at the time. The government had an entire ML report of options when giving the blanket guarantee and were warned it could lead to the current situation of being unable to issue bonds.

Sunnyisland

I know alot of political parties everywhere tell lies untruths to get into power,But the greens were still going on about there honesty and how different they were even though any one with ears & eyes could see they were going against a lot of there principles that they were voted in for in the first place, that and to be seen holding up a dieing FF party in government was a last straw for a lot of people,At the time they seem to be a great alternative to the usual civil war political parties here in Ireland and they blew it.Cant see much of a future for them now.

thebman

The reality is all junior coalition partners seem to be destroyed at the following election and it is just a bad idea to go into coalition if your not the major party in it as you will get all the bad stuff to implement and the major party will get almost all the positive things to implement to try to get themselves re-elected.

Just look at Britain, Liberal Democrats are going to be destroyed at the next election. About time Irish parties woke up to this and refused to join coalitions TBH but the attraction of power for one term has so far been too strong an attraction for them to refuse.

I don't think Sinn Fein are this stupid TBH and I think they are about the only party not stupid enough to do it.

Sunnyisland

thebman wrote: »

The reality is all junior coalition partners seem to be destroyed at the following election and it is just a bad idea to go into coalition if your not the major party in it as you will get all the bad stuff to implement and the major party will get almost all the positive things to implement to try to get themselves re-elected.

Just look at Britain, Liberal Democrats are going to be destroyed at the next election. About time Irish parties woke up to this and refused to join coalitions TBH but the attraction of power for one term has so far been too strong an attraction for them to refuse.

I don't think Sinn Fein are this stupid TBH and I think they are about the only party not stupid enough to do it.

Dont know about that now, If we say labour offered them a part of goverment cant see them rejecting that but do agree with the rest of your post though.

thebman

realies wrote: »

Dont know about that now, If we say labour offered them a part of goverment cant see them rejecting that but do agree with the rest of your post though.

Labour are likely to drop in support by the next election and most of it will go to SF IMO so I don't see such a temptation arising.

FG are going to blame Labour for every tax rise and expenditure cut coming down the line.

charlemont

The Green Party in Ireland were not about green policies, They were about taxing us more and using the excuse of green policies, How many extra trees or reforestation programs did the Greens initiate ?? Carbon Tax, Where does that tax even go ??

raymon

They blew their only chance by supporting FF crooks

Kinski

To anyone arguing that a Green Party revival would assit the environmental cause, I'd point out that their main excuse for staying in govt was that they were blocking the return of third level fees. What that has to do with the green agenda I've yet to figure out. Those noble protectors of mother earth...

Wolfe Tone

I liked them too Denerick years back but I would never vote for them after what they have did. The whole "we wont go into power with FF" thing annoyed me, not to mention propping up FF for so long and being integral in the things which that government did.

noel farrell

never the were clowns and were found out , the are history there will not be a phoenix for this bunch of ass holes .

View

Denerick wrote: »

Considering they did what any political party would do in a comparable situation, and that they were in no way responsible for the events leading to the economic crash, and that they have become a convenient scapegoat for an angry and gullible public, what are the chances of the Green party reviving its electoral fortunes over the next ten years?

Probably reasonably high. It is a few years to the next local & European elections and by then a large part of the electorate might be happy enough to give them a high preference if not an actual No.1 vote. After all, party wise the ballot paper really boils down to a limited selection.

If those votes translate into additional seats, then suddenly the press is talking about a break-through made after years in the wilderness. Just ask Enda K...

K-9

One of the the reasons the Greens supported NAMA was, they wanted some good loans to come into it, not just bad loans.

I suspect there'd be far more uproar if hotels weren't being sold in London etc. and that is something the Greens did bring in. Problem was, it slowed the whole process down by about a year.

As for the OP, yep they will revive, it might take 5 years.

hangon

One of the very few wise things i heard said by a Green Party member was,it may not be the same people who will return to the Dail someday but the green party will return because they are based on an idea
how long it will take is a hugh question
they did enter Govt more concerned with power than anything else and got to like the power.
they pulled as soon as they could after the finance bill was passed,FF wanted it much later and tried delaying tactics.
the greens were much more naive than power hungry,they will return someday.
check out the history of the Greens in Germany as a for instance.

p

It's a tough call for me. I think the Greens were voted for by idealists(including myself), and when they failed to live up to that ideal people were naturally pissed off. People held them up to a much higher bar, and I think, ignored some of the realities of politics. Justing by the current government's position - which is, by and large continuing the FF/Green economic approach, it's not to understand the position they were in.

I see they had 2 options:

1. Stay in power with FF, and continue to push through some Green policies (cycling, carbon tax, fixing the planning laws etc...) but know they'd punished for it, but at least those policies would go through.
2. Quit the coalition, possibly be punished anyway (for quitting, or staying so long) and see the same policies, minus the green policies happen anyway.

They went for option 1 and were destroyed. Hard to know if they'll make a comeback. I think they added something to the political discussion, and would welcome a comeback of sorts. I doubt they'll ever be in power again though.

Ultimately, people will probably never forgive them for making the bank guarantee (but, for some reason are happy to forget FG voted for that too, and Labour iirc abstained)

emo72 wrote: »

And in the end did they they make the country any greener or just introduce more green taxes?

I think they did a lot of small, boring but useful things that will have long term impact. Reversing some planning laws that were ludicrous (like building on flood plains etc...) and some cycling initiatives:
http://www.examiner.ie/opinion/editorial/cycle-of-recovery--a-small-but-welcome-revolution-169594.html#ixzz1ZwrakY9V

hangon

p wrote: »

It's a tough call for me. I think the Greens were voted for by idealists(including myself),

nothing wrong with idealism,it in its highest forms has made the World such a better place for many(happy 80th birthday desmond Tutu)

They went for option 1 and were destroyed. Hard to know if they'll make a comeback. I think they added something to the political discussion, and would welcome a comeback of sorts. I doubt they'll ever be in power again though.

again i think they will make a comeback,when is another matter?
if this economic turmoil had not happened with no end in sight,it might have been soon but this recession/depression has forced people only to think about the very short term future and damn the kids/grandkids/great grandkids.etc
what a shame.:(

alex73

The Greens made one mistake. It was called Fianna Fail.

hangon

alex73 wrote: »

The Greens made one mistake. It was called Fianna Fail.

I think it was the Electorate that made that mistake now be fair

LaBaguette

hangon wrote: »

One of the very few wise things i heard said by a Green Party member was,it may not be the same people who will return to the Dail someday but the green party will return because they are based on an idea

I'm not sure that's how it's meant to work, though. Political parties are usually based on a set of beliefs on how a country should be run.

The way I see it, Greens (everywhere in Europe) are about defending a single idea, and then borrow some bits of ideology from other parties - usually from the socialists, but not always.

So in think in the next decades the Green parties will either disappear when environment-related issues will have been incorporated into the main parties' ideologies, or merge with left-wing parties to form a socialist, eco-friendly party under the "Green" brand - fresher than the "socialist" one.

fenris

To my mind they will always be the people that were in a position to stop the ransacking of the country but didn't, whether it was due to cowerdice, self interest or plain stupidy doesn't matter, they are unfit to be given responsibility for anything more complicated than a spoon let alone a country.

hangon

LaBaguette wrote: »

I'm not sure that's how it's meant to work, though. Political parties are usually based on a set of beliefs on how a country should be run.
The way I see it, Greens (everywhere in Europe) are about defending a single idea, and then borrow some bits of ideology from other parties - usually from the socialists, but not always.

agree with most above and i do not believe they should ever be the driving force in a Govt however without the Greens no attention at all would have been paid to what is happening our planet ,the.
the shame is *Global warming* etc will be ignored[do not want to go into if GW is self made or what)

but for about six generations ahead any baby born will be a slave to the banks and if GW is a reality they will have to live with that mess as well.
take a bow the whole crowd who have stolen peoples future even before they are born.:mad:

Son Of A Vidic

Will the Greens ever Revive?


One can only hope that they never do.

Gudgeoon

Greens will take a few council seats in 2014. General election will see Labour slaughtered after several tough budgets. SF will be fighting to pass out FF as a new populist party offering something for everyone. FF/SF coalition seems likely. Some green TDs in the next dail.

The old left-right axis is coming to an end. Labour has walked away from socialism since the end of the cold war and now just aims to protect unionised workers and keep welfare rates high. Meanwhile, the right has been undermined by the financial collapse - clearly markets are not so efficient and privately run companies can be as bad as public companies. The best answer seems to be a bit of left and a bit of right: some welfare state and some free markets but not too much of either.

Gilmore will not be able to present Labour as the party of fairness and being nice to the poor in 2016 having cut welfare rates, cut pay, increased taxes and repaid unguaranteed bonds of bust banks. This is his swansong, tanaiste of Ireland and he can retire at the end while his party is lined up and shot by the electorate for failing to achieve the impossible.

So the greens may fill this ideological void. Even if the Irish greens don't get in for ten years, the whole direction of european policy in energy, transport, waste, water, planning and taxation is all green agenda. Most of our laws now are just the transposition of european directives that are not even discussed at home until after they are made law in europe. The remainder of our legislation is now being set by the EU through the IMF program.

Ireland has a particularly strong anti-green rural vote. At least a third of irish live in scattered houses with lifestyles that are dependent on cheap energy and untaxed pollution. Rightly they see that the greens wantto tax the bollox of them until they can no longer afford to heat their 7 bedroom abominations against nature. Sadly for them no politician can force down the cost of oil.

Irish culture is not very compatible with green philosophy - people look for shoddy short term solutions and cheap strokes they can pull. Long term my arse - let's go to the pub and hope that something will come up. The greens will get some urban votes all the same.

ei.sdraob

Gudgeoon wrote: »

Irish culture is not very compatible with green philosophy

Enlighten us as to what this "green philosophy" is all about please.

Gudgeoon

sustainable development, resource conservation. not treating the environment as an infinite toilet. all that mallarkey.

Kinski

Gudgeoon wrote: »

Greens will take a few council seats in 2014. General election will see Labour slaughtered after several tough budgets. SF will be fighting to pass out FF as a new populist party offering something for everyone. FF/SF coalition seems likely. Some green TDs in the next dail.

Don't forget to buy some polish for your crystal ball.:pac:

ei.sdraob

Gudgeoon wrote: »

sustainable development, resource conservation. not treating the environment as an infinite toilet. all that mallarkey.

And why does that require a specialised party?

tfitzgerald

Gudgeoon wrote: »

Greens will take a few council seats in 2014. General election will see Labour slaughtered after several tough budgets. SF will be fighting to pass out FF as a new populist party offering something for everyone. FF/SF coalition seems likely.

Gudgeon is right here this is what will happen . As for the op's question I hope we never again see the greens IMHO they were worse than fianna fail

Kinski

tfitzgerald wrote: »

Gudgeon is right here this is what will happen . As for the op's question I hope we never again see the greens IMHO they were worse than fianna fail

Neither you nor Gudgeon nor anyone else here knows what the outcome of an election that's not scheduled to take place until 2016 will be. Why do people make such bold predictions and try to pretend that they're certain to happen?

blahfckingblah

Gudgeoon wrote: »

sustainable development, resource conservation. not treating the environment as an infinite toilet. all that mallarkey.

well Sustainable development and resource conservation are becoming the norm, especially with respect to architecture and planning.

I think the Green Party's major opposition will come from people like hunters and farmers.

LaBaguette

blahfckingblah wrote: »

well Sustainable development and resource conservation are becoming the norm, especially with respect to architecture and planning.

.. and that's mostly due to the rise of Green parties across Europe (and elsewhere). They are necessary until environmental concerns are part of every political movement, in the same way that workers' right are now universally defended.

Once this is achieved, they will become redundant and either disappear or merge with other left-wing parties.

tfitzgerald

Kinski wrote: »

Neither you nor Gudgeon nor anyone else here knows what the outcome of an election that's not scheduled to take place until 2016 will be. Why do people make such bold predictions and try to pretend that they're certain to happen?

It's not a bold prediction it's common sense the current crowd are nailing us with every tax they can by the time 2016 comes around the people are going to hate them . And Fianna Fail are going to be back . And no I do not follow FF , at least not any more

View

ei.sdraob wrote: »

And why does that require a specialised party?

Largely, because our domestic non-specialised parties tend to ignore environmental concerns at every available opportunity.

You are aware that we have a pretty poor record of implementing EU Environmental directives? For instance, the ECJ fairly recently ruled against us for failing to implement an 1975 directive correctly. Then there was the case in Ballinasloe where planning permission was granted to build blocks of apartments in the flood plain of the local river Suck even though it floods the particular area every second winter or so...

ei.sdraob

View wrote: »

Largely, because our domestic non-specialised parties tend to ignore environmental concerns at every available opportunity.

People have bigger issues to worry about, like unemployment and taxation, this lesson hasnt been learned by the Greens when in power, until they do learn that there are bigger issues in peoples mind, theres no hope for them

View wrote: »

You are aware that we have a pretty poor record of implementing EU Environmental directives? For instance, the ECJ fairly recently ruled against us for failing to implement an 1975 directive correctly. Then there was the case in Ballinasloe where planning permission was granted to build blocks of apartments in the flood plain of the local river Suck even though it floods the particular area every second winter or so...

So we need a Green party in order to implement EU directives? and to deal with local issues? hey remind us where parish pump (ha!) politics got us

todolist

The Greens promote the global warming scam.Good riddance to the Facist ecologists.

View

ei.sdraob wrote: »

People have bigger issues to worry about,

The same argument is trotted out when times are good - albeit for different reasons.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

this lesson hasnt been learned by the Greens when in power, until they do learn that there are bigger issues in peoples mind, theres no hope for them

Well, FG & FF concentrate on the "bigger issues in peoples minds". It works/worked well for them, electorally speaking, but it does so by largely ignoring environmental issues.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

So we need a Green party in order to implement EU directives? and to deal with local issues? hey remind us where parish pump (ha!) politics got us

Did I say that? No....

Look, people complain that the major parties are the same. Well, the Greens attempted to offer something different (as did others such as the PDs). You may never agree with their ideas but at least give them some credit for attempting to offer something different.

Would you prefer we follow the example of other states where they opted for one-party states where your voting was limited to whether you wanted candidate X or Y from the same party? Because in many respects the policies of the larger parties here mirror such a set-up as they boil down to "It should be our guys sitting in the Ministerial chairs, not the other guys who are currently sitting in them".

ei.sdraob

View wrote: »

Look, people complain that the major parties are the same. Well, the Greens attempted to offer something different (as did others such as the PDs). You may never agree with their ideas but at least give them some credit for attempting to offer something different.

Would you prefer we follow the example of other states where they opted for one-party states where your voting was limited to whether you wanted candidate X or Y from the same party? Because in many respects the policies of the larger parties here mirror such a set-up as they boil down to "It should be our guys sitting in the Ministerial chairs, not the other guys who are currently sitting in them".

Fair enough fair play to them for being different

unfortunately this "different" turned out to be a set of policies whose:
* answer to every issue is more taxes :rolleyes:
* who engage in Nanny statist green fascism with the aim of "behavioural modification" of people (I kid you not, behavioural modification! you swear we are all kids or something), since people "are stupid" and "lazy" and "dont care", a line of thinking which you yourself have illustrated in your posts in this thread, this smug D4 superiority complex doesnt go well with the rest of the country (and lets not forget that grinning eejit Eamon Ryan smugly lying to us thru his grin)
* the polluter pays principle translated into everyone pays

and thats before they signed their death warrant by backing FF on their crazy brainfarts in order to buy a little time for themselves to try to implement policies that people were screaming at them and telling them are of little relevance

foggy_lad

I don't see the green party ever getting any seats in Ireland again, Irish people have always been wary of turncoats and those who cling on to something septic for their own benefit. The greens should not have supported the previous government for as long as they did but they wanted to make names for themselves much like when one uses inappropriate language in the dáil to get coverage when nobody knows who you are.

The greens let Ireland down badly and should fall on their swords now and disband the party for the good of the country.