First time Ultra advice....

Rantan

happy friday all,

I have been toying with the idea of attempting an ultra for some time now, I decided to get at least 3 marathons in before making an effort.
DCM11 will be my 3rd, assuming I get to the start and finish lines in one piece, I am considering the Con'12 Ultra, is that too ambitious...should I get more miles and maybe another marathon or two in first? I am aiming for 3.30 in Dub. Is there enough time between Nov and April 1st to go from mediocre marathon to ultra?

any replies/advice appreciated..

R

menoscemo

DCM last year was my 2nd ever Marathon (1st in which I didn't blow up) and I ran 3:32.
I went on to run 5:50 in the Conn Ultra (top 40 out of 200ish I think), So I say go for it. Keep the miles up during the winter and look out for the Donadea 50k in february.

There was a mentored group for the Conn Ultra last year in the events page, maybe there'll be something simial next year.

There's no great secret to running an ultra like Conn, just plenty of miles in the legs and go out a bit slower than Marathon pace and you should be fine.

Best of Luck and see you there.

tunney

menoscemo wrote: »

DCM last year was my 2nd ever Marathon (1st in which I didn't blow up) and I ran 3:32.
I went on to run 5:50 in the Conn Ultra (top 40 out of 200ish I think), So I say go for it. Keep the miles up during the winter and look out for the Donadea 50k in february.

There was a mentored group for the Conn Ultra last year in the events page, maybe there'll be something simial next year.

There's no great secret to running an ultra like Conn, just plenty of miles in the legs and go out a bit slower than Marathon pace and you should be fine.

Best of Luck and see you there.

Lashing 8km onto a marathong is an ultra? Seriously?

Rantan

wow..thats encouraging! thanks for the advice
..if I can get one more 18m in before Dublin without my knees bursting - I might consider it...

r

TFBubendorfer

Connemara is an excellent choice for a first ultra.

In fact, Connemara is an excellent choice for any number of Ultra, but that's just my personal opinion. I'm fairly sure we will have another "mentor" thread for 2012 and if we're really lucky, Mick Rice might give some extra wisdom.

Just think of it as a long marathon. That's what I keep telling people.

RacoonQueen

tunney wrote: »

Lashing 8km onto a marathong is an ultra? Seriously?

50k is a badly measured marathon.

RacoonQueen

Rantan wrote: »

wow..thats encouraging! thanks for the advice
..if I can get one more 18m in before Dublin without my knees bursting - I might consider it...

r

If you can run a marathon you can run 39.3. The extra 13 miles are easy. Big difference between Conn Ultra and 50 miles+ I think, but, Conn is relatively easy as ultra's go really.

TheRoadRunner

tunney wrote: »

Lashing 8km onto a marathong is an ultra? Seriously?

Yep technically lashing on 1km to a marathon makes it an ultra!

Oisin11178

RacoonQueen wrote: »

If you can run a marathon you can run 39.3. The extra 13 miles are easy. Big difference between Conn Ultra and 50 miles+ I think, but, Conn is relatively easy as ultra's go really.

Conn is easy?
The extra 13 miles are easy?
Really?

OP deffo concider the 50k in donadea as a stepping stone, it will bring you on leaps and bounds.

Oisin11178

TheRoadRunner wrote: »

Yep technically lashing on 1km to a marathon makes it an ultra!

I remember seeing a 27 mile race in portugal aimed at people who wanted to say they ran an ultra. Horses for courses i suppose:D

ultrapercy

if you cycle half of it you can call yourself an Iron Man or a half an Iron Man or a bit of angle iron or something.

tunney

TheRoadRunner wrote: »

tunney wrote: »

Lashing 8km onto a marathong is an ultra? Seriously?

Yep technically lashing on 1km to a marathon makes it an ultra!

Class. That means I did an Ultra this summer. IM Frankfurt - 3.8km swim, 180km bike and then an marathon.

Seriously that's a sh1t definition of an ultra.

TheRoadRunner

tunney wrote: »

Class. That means I did an Ultra this summer. IM Frankfurt - 3.8km swim, 180km bike and then an marathon.

Seriously that's a sh1t definition of an ultra.

I'd agree with you. Until recently I thought an ultra was twice the normal marathon distance.

menoscemo

Oisin11178 wrote: »

I remember seeing a 27 mile race in portugal aimed at people who wanted to say they ran an ultra. Horses for courses i suppose:D

That was at the Barca expo. Was it not actually 42.3km? It was no more than 43km anyway :pac:

menoscemo

tunney wrote: »

Lashing 8km onto a marathong is an ultra? Seriously?

I never said anything about the 50k race being an ultra, though technically, yes it is. Conn Ultra is 63.3k or 1.5 marathons.

rainbow kirby

menoscemo wrote: »

That was at the Barca expo. Was it not actually 42.3km? It was no more than 43km anyway :pac:

Wasn't that the one along the beach?

menoscemo

rainbow kirby wrote: »

Wasn't that the one along the beach?

yep

RacoonQueen

Oisin11178 wrote: »

Conn is easy?
The extra 13 miles are easy?
Really?

OP deffo concider the 50k in donadea as a stepping stone, it will bring you on leaps and bounds.

Why the question marks? Was there something about what I typed that was difficult to understand?

Oisin11178

menoscemo wrote: »

That was at the Barca expo. Was it not actually 42.3km? It was no more than 43km anyway :pac:

Yeah 43 km i think.

Oisin11178

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Why the question marks? Was there something about what I typed that was difficult to understand?

Yeah the whole lot of it. I can understand wat you are trying to say but it just dosnt compute. onn is far from easy and the lasy 13.1 miles are also very far from easy. The question marks are there because i would like you to elaberate on how these things are easy. Wouldnt like someone to sign up thinking ah sure thats easy and then explode.

ultraman1

must be **** all on telly tonight....

RacoonQueen

Oisin11178 wrote: »

Yeah the whole lot of it. I can understand wat you are trying to say but it just dosnt compute. onn is far from easy and the lasy 13.1 miles are also very far from easy. The question marks are there because i would like you to elaberate on how these things are easy. Wouldnt like someone to sign up thinking ah sure thats easy and then explode.

If you can run a marathon you can run 39.3, I did my first Conn off 30 mile weeks or something ridiculous like that. Connemara is really not that big or difficult an achievement...

Oisin11178

RacoonQueen wrote: »

If you can run a marathon you can run 39.3, I did my first Conn off 30 mile weeks or something ridiculous like that. Connemara is really not that big or difficult an achievement...

I agree if you can run a marathon you could finish the conn ultra in a fairly bad state, walking most of the last 13.1 miles. Whats an achivment in your eyes?

RacoonQueen

Oisin11178 wrote: »

I agree if you can run a marathon you could finish the conn ultra in a fairly bad state, walking most of the last 13.1 miles.

Ummm not really. If you can run a marathon, and slow the pace a bit you can finish Connemara, without THAT much effort.

Oisin11178 wrote: »

Whats an achivment in your eyes?

5:15 or faster in Connemara is pretty impressive. 2:45 in a marathon is pretty impressive. Do you want a long list?

Izoard

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Ummm not really. If you can run a marathon, and slow the pace a bit you can finish Connemara, without THAT much effort.

Meh, I had Conn Ultra pegged as my primary aim for 2012, better collect $200 and go straight to Deca Ironman for may sins...

TFBubendorfer

RacoonQueen wrote: »

5:15 or faster in Connemara is pretty impressive. 2:45 in a marathon is pretty impressive. Do you want a long list?

That's a bit uneven. 2:45 in a marathon is a lot better than 5:15. Believe me, I should know.

2:45 in a marathon is closer to 4:30 in Connemara IMHO; just have a look at Mick Rice's times.

RacoonQueen

Izoard wrote: »

Meh, I had Conn Ultra pegged as my primary aim for 2012, better collect $200 and go straight to Deca Ironman for may sins...

Do a double deca, I'll sponsor you $200 for that.

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

That's a bit uneven. 2:45 in a marathon is a lot better than 5:15. Believe me, I should know.

2:45 in a marathon is closer to 4:30 in Connemara IMHO; just have a look at Mick Rice's times.

I wasn't doing it as a time comparison though. 8 x 39.3 is fairly impressive, that is running the whole way.

I was going to say sub 5, but remembered you were about 5:15, I can withdraw my admiration for your time if you like?!

Abhainn

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

That's a bit uneven. 2:45 in a marathon is a lot better than 5:15. Believe me, I should know.

2:45 in a marathon is closer to 4:30 in Connemara IMHO; just have a look at Mick Rice's times.

Correct. I did 2:47 DM in 2009 and should have had a 4:29 in Conn 39.3 following April on good form. Had to settle for a 4:37 in the end. Some testing little hills in the last 1/3. Look at the winners splits on the day

Conn Ultra is a great experience. Pace yourself over first and avoid unnecessary pain.

Oisin11178

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Ummm not really. If you can run a marathon, and slow the pace a bit you can finish Connemara, without THAT much effort.



5:15 or faster in Connemara is pretty impressive. 2:45 in a marathon is pretty impressive. Do you want a long list?

Good advise, how did that work out for you when you ran the conn ultra?

Oisin11178

RacoonQueen wrote: »

If you can run a marathon you can run 39.3. The extra 13 miles are easy. Big difference between Conn Ultra and 50 miles+ I think, but, Conn is relatively easy as ultra's go really.

Abhainn wrote: »

Correct. I did 2:47 DM in 2009 and should have had a 4:29 in Conn 39.3 following April on good form. Had to settle for a 4:37 in the end. Some testing little hills in the last 1/3. Look at the winners splits on the day

Conn Ultra is a great experience. Pace yourself over first and avoid unnecessary pain.

You must be mistaken joe, the last 13.1 miles in conn are easy:D

RacoonQueen

Oisin11178 wrote: »

Good advise, how did that work out for you when you ran the conn ultra?

Fine, I've done it twice and come through it both times with relative ease - despite once being on the back of 30 mile weeks and the second time coming back from a bad illness and really just been out for the lolz that day, but sure, you've never been one to let facts get in your way have you? Stop trying to make it out to be something it's not. You've done much tougher events than Connemara. The only real ultra in the South is the Wicklow Way anyway and that's 'only' 55km.

Plus, Abhainn runs it fast so it's a bit different when he describes it, to what the majority of the field is doing.

Oisin11178

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Fine, I've done it twice and come through it both times with relative ease - despite once being on the back of 30 mile weeks and the second time coming back from a bad illness and really just been out for the lolz that day, but sure, you've never been one to let facts get in your way have you? Stop trying to make it out to be something it's not. You've done much tougher events than Connemara. The only real ultra in the South is the Wicklow Way anyway and that's 'only' 55km.

Plus, Abhainn runs it fast so it's a bit different when he describes it, to what the majority of the field is doing.

I was just asking you questions because i dont understand your point of view. Yeah ive done longer events than the conn ultra but i would never use the word easy to describe any part of it. Bear in mind that the OP has not done an ultra.

TheRoadRunner

Fight fight fight

Enduro

Evening All

On the "what is an ultra" debate, the IAAF, IAU etc are all happy to define it as anything longer than a marathon, and divide up the universe along those lines. However, no less a runner than Yiannis Kouros disagrees with that (follow the "what is ultrarunning" link at the top of his page). My personal opinion, having had experience of a wide spread of distances, is that I fully agree with his point, essentially saying that races less than 24 hours are really for speedsters, whereas beyond that its much more about endurance. However the borderline is always going to be fuzzy, so the simple definition of longer than a marathon seems perfectly logicial.

On the "conn is easy" debate... Racoonqueen is absolutely correct to say that anyone who has put in the training for a marathon could easily finish conn, once they adapt their pace correctly (running it at their marathon pace would obviously NOT be the correct approach). It's equivalent to moving up to a 15 mile race after training for ten milers. It's not a big step.

So, my answer to the OP would be absolutely go for it. The marathon is a completely arbritary distance. There is no magical barrier there that makes it a huge step to run longer.

oh, and to my mind the toughest ultra in the south is the Art O'Neill. That's another case (like the Wicklow Way Ultra) where the distance doesn't really indicate the toughness of the event.

Oisin11178

TheRoadRunner wrote: »

Fight fight fight

Yeah your right ive taken this way off topic. Its obvious we dont agree but thats alright. If everyone was the same it would be very boring.

Just for the OP yeah as Menoscemo said he was in the same position as you when he signed up and he came through it well under 6 hours so its deffo doable for you. My personal advise would be to get a 30 mile run or maybe even a 50k race under your belf before then. There is a 50k race in early feb in donadea which is fairly flat and would be a good intro nto ultras for you.

Oisin11178

Enduro wrote: »

Evening All

On the "what is an ultra" debate, the IAAF, IAU etc are all happy to define it as anything longer than a marathon, and divide up the universe along those lines. However, no less a runner than Yiannis Kouros disagrees with that (follow the "what is ultrarunning" link at the top of his page). My personal opinion, having had experience of a wide spread of distances, is that I fully agree with his point, essentially saying that races less than 24 hours are really for speedsters, whereas beyond that its much more about endurance. However the borderline is always going to be fuzzy, so the simple definition of longer than a marathon seems perfectly logicial.

On the "conn is easy" debate... Racoonqueen is absolutely correct to say that anyone who has put in the training for a marathon could easily finish conn, once they adapt their pace correctly (running it at their marathon pace would obviously NOT be the correct approach). It's equivalent to moving up to a 15 mile race after training for ten milers. It's not a big step.

So, my answer to the OP would be absolutely go for it. The marathon is a completely arbritary distance. There is no magical barrier there that makes it a huge step to run longer.

oh, and to my mind the toughest ultra in the south is the Art O'Neill. That's another case (like the Wicklow Way Ultra) where the distance doesn't really indicate the toughness of the event.

I agree that anyone that has finished a marathon could complete the conn ultra. It was just the use of the word easy that i was disagreeing with. I hope to do the art o neill next year. Looking forward to it.

TheRoadRunner

Cheers enduro. Had a look at that link. Didn't read it all admittedly but that guy is saying an ultra, by his definition is anything over 24hrs. Am im reading that right?

All of these boundaries are artificial and can become hazy, but in theory, based on his criteria if you ran 100 miles in 14 hours it's not an ultra while if you ran the same distance in 24 it is an ultra. I think a specified distance would be better. I.e more than 50/100 or whatever miles.

Enduro

Oisin11178 wrote: »

I agree that anyone that has finished a marathon could complete the conn ultra. It was just the use of the word easy that i was disagreeing with. I hope to do the art o neill next year. Looking forward to it.

Do indeed run the AON! It's a fantastic experience.

Again, I think RQ is correct that anyone who has got solid marathon training done could easily finish the conn ultra. Competing to their best possible ability would be a different matter! I suspect that's where the debate is arising (The times being quoted are all at the upper end of the field)

Enduro

TheRoadRunner wrote: »

Cheers enduro. Had a look at that link. Didn't read it all admittedly but that guy is saying an ultra, by his definition is anything over 24hrs. Am im reading that right?

All of these boundaries are artificial and can become hazy, but in theory, based on his criteria if you ran 100 miles in 14 hours it's not an ultra while if you ran the same distance in 24 it is an ultra. I think a specified distance would be better. I.e more than 50/100 or whatever miles.

Excellent point! Genuinley, you should email Yiannas with that point and see what he says. I imagine he is talking about full blooded efforts though, given his own multiple world record background! There's no argueing with the man's experience

I agree with you on keeping the definition simple, so I've no arguments with the official "longer than a marathon" definition. But I do divide ultras into "sprinty" and "endurance" in my own head!

carkulture

Hey ! Ultra is amazing! I went 2 years in a row (2010,2011) and by far one of the best music festivals I have EVER been to. No worries on going alone, you meet a lot of cool people , people who are electric dance music junkies like myself:) Im planning my trip to Ultra today actually since GA tickets go on sale in about 2 hours. You should book the hotel no later than December. South beach is full of amazing hotels, some suggestions are the Gansevoort , Shelbourne, Shore club, Raleigh. If you want to go the cheaper way you can always book with Miami hilton. I wouldn't mind going with someone new! I love meeting new people we can always book a room together with other people!! VIP is worth it on so many levels, but so expensive. If your really just there for the music then GA tickets are fine. After parties usually are 20$ admission. For the whole trip I think you should bring about 1500$ between food, taxis back and forth to Bicentennial Park, taxis everywhere else, and admissions of course. 1500 should be good, if you can bring more you can go shopping in Miami !! ha ha which is always nice;) Definitely fly from Dallas!

ultraman1

carkulture wrote: »

Hey ! Ultra is amazing! I went 2 years in a row (2010,2011) and by far one of the best music festivals I have EVER been to. No worries on going alone, you meet a lot of cool people , people who are electric dance music junkies like myself:) Im planning my trip to Ultra today actually since GA tickets go on sale in about 2 hours. You should book the hotel no later than December. South beach is full of amazing hotels, some suggestions are the Gansevoort , Shelbourne, Shore club, Raleigh. If you want to go the cheaper way you can always book with Miami hilton. I wouldn't mind going with someone new! I love meeting new people we can always book a room together with other people!! VIP is worth it on so many levels, but so expensive. If your really just there for the music then GA tickets are fine. After parties usually are 20$ admission. For the whole trip I think you should bring about 1500$ between food, taxis back and forth to Bicentennial Park, taxis everywhere else, and admissions of course. 1500 should be good, if you can bring more you can go shopping in Miami !! ha ha which is always nice;) Definitely fly from Dallas!

must be a contender 4 post of the year...

sideswipe

carkulture wrote: »

Hey ! Ultra is amazing! I went 2 years in a row (2010,2011) and by far one of the best music festivals I have EVER been to. No worries on going alone, you meet a lot of cool people , people who are electric dance music junkies like myself:) Im planning my trip to Ultra today actually since GA tickets go on sale in about 2 hours. You should book the hotel no later than December. South beach is full of amazing hotels, some suggestions are the Gansevoort , Shelbourne, Shore club, Raleigh. If you want to go the cheaper way you can always book with Miami hilton. I wouldn't mind going with someone new! I love meeting new people we can always book a room together with other people!! VIP is worth it on so many levels, but so expensive. If your really just there for the music then GA tickets are fine. After parties usually are 20$ admission. For the whole trip I think you should bring about 1500$ between food, taxis back and forth to Bicentennial Park, taxis everywhere else, and admissions of course. 1500 should be good, if you can bring more you can go shopping in Miami !! ha ha which is always nice;) Definitely fly from Dallas!

Wahoo spring break! Count me in for this 'ultra' you speak of:D

Rantan

morning, heartbroken over the rugby, bit of an anticlimax after all the hope, thanks for all the info, especially from those with the experience of conn/ultras, very useful insights here, think I'll give it a go,

eehhmm...was actually thinking of just driving to galway and spending the night with my mate, hadn't really considered shopping in miami as part of the schedule...???

RacoonQueen

Oisin11178 wrote: »

I was just asking you questions because i dont understand your point of view. Yeah ive done longer events than the conn ultra but i would never use the word easy to describe any part of it. Bear in mind that the OP has not done an ultra.

You missed the most important part of my first post that ''Connemara is relatively easy, as Ultra's go. I was on a bit of a wind up mission after that when you reacted the way you did. Entertaining. Thanks. :pac:

My point still stands though, Connemara is largely made out to be more difficult than it actually is - so much so that I originally planned to run the half marathon in Connemara so I could check out this unbelievably difficult course as I didn't think I'd be able for it. Anyone can run an ultra, anyone can run Conn. Off marathon training, with the right pacing you could run most, if not, the whole thing. An Ultra like AON or WW takes a lot more training and bring other skills into the equation. Most Irish Ultras are relatively flat, it takes away a large part of the challenge. AON is what Ultra running is really about, a proper challenge that you really can't take on without putting some serious work into it.

Oisin11178 wrote: »

Bear in mind that the OP has not done an ultra.

Yes, trying to show the chap a bit of encouragment. I know thats an alien concept to some on here though.

Oisin11178

RacoonQueen wrote: »

You missed the most important part of my first post that ''Connemara is relatively easy, as Ultra's go. I was on a bit of a wind up mission after that when you reacted the way you did. Entertaining. Thanks. :pac:

My point still stands though, Connemara is largely made out to be more difficult than it actually is - so much so that I originally planned to run the half marathon in Connemara so I could check out this unbelievably difficult course as I didn't think I'd be able for it. Anyone can run an ultra, anyone can run Conn. Off marathon training, with the right pacing you could run most, if not, the whole thing. An Ultra like AON or WW takes a lot more training and bring other skills into the equation. Most Irish Ultras are relatively flat, it takes away a large part of the challenge. AON is what Ultra running is really about, a proper challenge that you really can't take on without putting some serious work into it.



Yes, trying to show the chap a bit of encouragment. I know thats an alien concept to some on here though.

Thats why i was disappointed when they cancelled the dingle 50, wanted too go up connors pass. Flat races are for fast shorter races anything frm 1 mile to marathon imo. I like to go longer and have something in there that will really challange me. The only problem with the art o neill for me is im **** at navigation but id go with one of the groups and time would be irrelevent the first year. Just to complete it in one piece would be the goal first time around. As for the OP id deffo recommend doing a few miles longer than your long run for marathon training. Its one thing finishing the conn ultra but if you can finish it strong its far more enjoyable:D

Bugsy2000

Just took a look at the Art O Neill - now thats my kind of race. Really like the look of it. Don't think I'd be up for it this January coming (only planning my first marathon next year, probably Conn) but it's already in the diary for January 2013.

TFBubendorfer

RacoonQueen wrote: »

I was going to say sub 5, but remembered you were about 5:15, I can withdraw my admiration for your time if you like?!

No no, keep the admiration going, it will fuel my ego.

lynchieboy

Are gels enough to get you around the conn ultra? at what point do you have to eat something? also in the longer ultras what do people eat/drink? is there a magic formula.

grahamor

lynchieboy wrote: »

Are gels enough to get you around the conn ultra? at what point do you have to eat something? also in the longer ultras what do people eat/drink? is there a magic formula.

I ate 3 gels, 5 bananas and a load of fig rolls. Had a lucozade in the last 5k's and nearly puked. I really had a craving for something savoury like chips or fried chicken towards the end.

It was my first ultra and went relatively well. was about 30 mins slower than i would of liked but didn't have any major issues. Starting out nice and easy really paid off.

TFBubendorfer

lynchieboy wrote: »

Are gels enough to get you around the conn ultra? at what point do you have to eat something? also in the longer ultras what do people eat/drink? is there a magic formula.

I had 2 gels, 3 sports drinks (500 ml each) and one granola bar, in addition to water and a sip of sports drink form the aid stations.

In a longer ultra, you need to eat and drink more, but because the pace is slower you can digest much more easily in those.

There is no magic formula and everyone is different. You will have to find out what works for you.

Krusty_Clown

lynchieboy wrote: »

Are gels enough to get you around the conn ultra? at what point do you have to eat something? also in the longer ultras what do people eat/drink? is there a magic formula.

I just had a mix of gels and sports-drinks, and was really craving something salty. So at one of the later aid stations, it would certainly be worthwhile including pretzels/salt sticks or something like that. Better to have it available (and not use it) than to not have it to hand. A lot depends on the weather though.

I ran the Con ultra on the back of pure marathon training (including running an actual marathon). Certainly you'll lose some steam over the last 5 miles if you don't include any ultra specific training (longer runs or back to back long runs), but 'completion' on the back of marathon training is no problem (I finished in just under 5:15). I'd still like to go back some day and give it a decent whack, with some Abhainn-type training, but unfortunately it'll have to wait. 2014 possibly. My dance calendar is full until then.