Dana's citizenship

stoneill

Is she an Irish citizen or a US citizen?
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2011/1007/1224305390909.html

People becoming naturalised US citizens take an oath renouncing their allegiance to all other states. Ms Scallon said she could not recall taking the oath. She said that being a US citizen did not bar her from becoming president of Ireland.


If she did take the oath, does that mean she is not legally allowed to run for president?

MadsL

You can have Irish & American citizenship.

The oath may have some 'moral' weight but that's all.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

seanybiker

Its dual citizenship is all.

ResearchWill

The oath,

"I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the armed forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God."

From here http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.5af9bb95919f35e66f614176543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=facd6db8d7e37210VgnVCM100000082ca60aRCRD&vgnextchannel=dd7ffe9dd4aa3210VgnVCM100000b92ca60aRCRD

If she took the oath and did not mean it, how do we know she will mean it if she takes the oath of office for the president. It's only an oath no big deal, but in my opinion an oath is a very big deal. My sister refused to take Austrlian citizenship until the oath to the queen was removed, because she would not swear an oath she did not mean.

seanybiker

ResearchWill wrote: »

The oath,

"I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the armed forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God."

From here http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.5af9bb95919f35e66f614176543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=facd6db8d7e37210VgnVCM100000082ca60aRCRD&vgnextchannel=dd7ffe9dd4aa3210VgnVCM100000b92ca60aRCRD

If she took the oath and did not mean it, how do we know she will mean it if she takes the oath of office for the president. It's only an oath no big deal, but in my opinion an oath is a very big deal. My sister refused to take Austrlian citizenship until the oath to the queen was removed, because she would not swear an oath she did not mean.

I know where your coming from but other people dont mind pledging just for the sake of getting citizenship.

ResearchWill

seanybiker wrote: »

I know where your coming from but other people dont mind pledging just for the sake of getting citizenship.

So by that logic is ok for our president to tell a lie on oath, for a personal gain. In all that has come out in this election in my opinion if true this is the worst. If she took the oath she either lied and therefore is not fit to take oath of office, or she did not lie and has now sworn loyalty to the US above Ireland.

For example the Australian oath states " From this time forward, I pledge my loyalty to Australia and its people, whose democratic beliefs I share, whose rights and liberties I respect, and whose laws I will uphold and obey."

I would have no problem with her taking that oath because it does not put Australia above Ireland.

seanybiker

ResearchWill wrote: »

So by that logic is ok for our president to tell a lie on oath, for a personal gain. In all that has come out in this election in my opinion if true this is the worst. If she took the oath she either lied and therefore is not fit to take oath of office, or she did not lie and has now sworn loyalty to the US above Ireland.

For example the Australian oath states " From this time forward, I pledge my loyalty to Australia and its people, whose democratic beliefs I share, whose rights and liberties I respect, and whose laws I will uphold and obey."

I would have no problem with her taking that oath because it does not put Australia above Ireland.

Im not disagreeing with you at all man. I know exactly where you are coming from. I wouldnt be in the know about all this stuff as you would. From what your saying I do believe that she is doing wrong but what can we do about it. Sorry I cant get into a good debate it. Im just not educated anout on it so I will bow out. you're right though.

Zubeneschamali

seanybiker wrote: »

I do believe that she is doing wrong but what can we do about it.

Easy: vote for someone else, and let Dana go back to her career as a musical American god-botherer.

UDP

ResearchWill wrote: »

If she took the oath and did not mean it, how do we know she will mean it if she takes the oath of office for the president. It's only an oath no big deal, but in my opinion an oath is a very big deal. My sister refused to take Austrlian citizenship until the oath to the queen was removed, because she would not swear an oath she did not mean.

Ha, there is no fear of her not meaning the oath of the president of Ireland:

"In the presence of Almighty God I do solemnly and sincerely promise and declare that I will maintain the Constitution of Ireland and uphold its laws, that I will fulfill my duties faithfully and conscientiously in accordance with the Constitution and the law, and that I will dedicate my abilities to the service and welfare of the people of Ireland. May God direct and sustain me".

:pac:

RichardAnd

Dana ran for president in 1997, wanted to do so again in 2004 and is doing just that as we speak. If there were legal issues with her running, I'm sure they would have come to light before now.

Anyway, she'll likely finish somewhere around the bottom so this isn't something to worry about. She's fairly harmless to be honest, it just seems she has her heart set on easy job in the big house

pubview

Are we expected to believe that a nice Christian lady like our Dana would take an Oath before her God that she did not really mean ?

Why did she take out US citizenship anyway - purely for financial gain ?

And perhaps someone will correct me if my memory is wrong in this but wasn't there a candidate for the Trinity seats in the last Seanad election who had to withdraw even though her name was already on the Ballot Paper because she had foreign citizenship ?

Edit to add :

Found her - Karin Dubsky :

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Karin-Dubsky-for-Seanad-%C3%89ireann/134273869976902

Monty Burnz

I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen

Dana is the classic religious hypocrite. She was happy to renounce her allegiance and loyalty to Ireland for her own benefit, and then turns around and tries to play the nationalist/xenophobe card in the presidential election.

I hear that she can't be contacted by any of the news agencies at the moment, but that she 'can't remember taking the oath' :rolleyes:

Disgrace.

pubview

Is it something in the Derry air that affects people's memories ?

jhegarty

Dev didn't have any problems with his American citizenship. So don't see how it could be an issue.

Min

Ireland can have it's very own Irish American president, following in the footsteps of Kennedy, Nixon, Reagon, Clinton, Obama, de Valera....

Monty Burnz

jhegarty wrote: »

Dev didn't have any problems with his American citizenship. So don't see how it could be an issue.

Dev went from being American to being Irish. Dana went the other way, renouncing her loyalty and allegiance to the country she wants to be president of.

Can you not see a difference?

InigoMontoya

I don't see this as an issue at all.

Monty Burnz

InigoMontoya wrote: »

I don't see this as an issue at all.

You don't see a problem with someone swearing to renounce all allegiance and fidelity to our country, then trying to run for president without letting us know that she had done that?

Pandora2

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Dev went from being American to being Irish. Dana went the other way, renouncing her loyalty and allegiance to the country she wants to be president of.

Can you not see a difference?

With you on that Monty, availing of dual citizenship is a totally different from taking an oath of allegiance to another Country and in turn renouncing her allegiance to the Country of her birth But, wasn't she born in Islington, Nawf London?

Pandora2

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Dev went from being American to being Irish. Dana went the other way, renouncing her loyalty and allegiance to the country she wants to be president of.

Can you not see a difference?

See what you mean Monty...But, was she not born in North London??

pubview

Dev was an American citizen but was technically British in the Ireland that was in it when the matter of his execution became an issue.

Zubeneschamali

Monty Burnz wrote: »

You don't see a problem with someone swearing to renounce all allegiance and fidelity to our country, then trying to run for president without letting us know that she had done that?

You couldn't make it up. [looks over at the Norris thread] OK, you could make it up, but then it wouldn't be as funny:

From the Irish Times:

“She had just acquired her American citizenship, at the same time she was running for president of a foreign country, and the decision was made that it wouldn’t look very good if the people of Ireland knew she was an American citizen.”

Ms Scallon said yesterday her husband and her brother could not remember the conversation.

Ms Scallon said she could not recall taking the oath.

Iowa judge Charles Wolle found that none of the witnesses in the case, who included Dana, spoke “only the truth” when giving their sworn testimony. He said both Dana and her sister had “convenient memories to some extent”.

dvpower

Taking US citizenship is going to hurt her, particularly as the Oath she took is going to be read back to her by the likes of Vincent Browne (I'll be tuning in for that one).
But the fact that she concealed it is going to hurt her more, and, according to her sister, she actively concealed it. And she continues to conceal, with lame attempts to say she can't remember taking the oath (:eek::rolleyes::D - there really aren't the emoticons)

Possibly worse, as the papers are pulling at the threads of her personal and business life, what are they going to reveal that shatters the image of an upstanding wholesome catholic woman.

Her only saving grace is that she never really broke through her core vote, so she has little to lose.

pubview

How many passports does Dana have ?

She's entitled to an Irish one, of course.

And she presumably has a US one.

And as far as I'm aware she's entitled under Irish law to hold both an Irish and a British passport.

But under British law - again as far as I'm aware - you can only hold the one passport, so you have to choose between your Irish and UK one.

It's just nosiness (and why not in an election where candidates are supposed to be scrutinised ?) but I'd like to know how many passports Ms Scallon has.

galwayrugbyfan

It's strange how the two British-born Presidential candidates are so anti-European. Or maybe it's just a Derry thing. In fact, isn't it weird how all the British-born ultra-Oirish mouthpieces over the last few years have been virulently anti-Europe. It's as though Scallon, McGuinness and Ganley object to Ireland gaining sovereignty through membership of the EU, and would prefer it to be part of the UK where we could safely whine and whinge yet never need to take responsibility and act like real grown-up countries. A bit like Northern Ireland.

niallers1

jhegarty wrote: »

Dev didn't have any problems with his American citizenship. So don't see how it could be an issue.

Did Dev take this oath..Dana Did

The oath,

"I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen"

dvpower

^^^ Controversial 'first' post - with added inaccuracies.

niallers1

galwayrugbyfan wrote: »

It's strange how the two British-born Presidential candidates are so anti-European. Or maybe it's just a Derry thing. In fact, isn't it weird how all the British-born ultra-Oirish mouthpieces over the last few years have been virulently anti-Europe. It's as though Scallon, McGuinness and Ganley object to Ireland gaining sovereignty through membership of the EU, and would prefer it to be part of the UK where we could safely whine and whinge yet never need to take responsibility and act like real grown-up countries. A bit like Northern Ireland.

Controversial first post..well done..

niallers1

Snap

dvpower

niallers1 wrote: »

"I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen"

Maybe she thought she was talking about the EU

InigoMontoya

Monty Burnz wrote: »

You don't see a problem with someone swearing to renounce all allegiance and fidelity to our country, then trying to run for president without letting us know that she had done that?

Not really. Lots of Irish people have taken that oath as a purely practical step to getting a US passport. I don't think it has affected their loyalty to Ireland at all. It's not ideal, but it's just not worth worrying about. Maybe it just makes no difference to me because of her general uselessness anyway. :shrug:

old hippy

Loyalty is overrated, if you ask me.

niallers1

InigoMontoya wrote: »

Not really. Lots of Irish people have taken that oath as a purely practical step to getting a US passport. I don't think it has affected their loyalty to Ireland at all. It's not ideal, but it's just not worth worrying about. Maybe it just makes no difference to me because of her general uselessness anyway. :shrug:

Lots of Irish Poeple are not running for President of Ireland.

InigoMontoya

niallers1 wrote: »

Lots of Irish Poeple are not running for President of Ireland.

Really?

I just see this as a technicality. If, for example, someone else had done something wrong, but they were "ok" by virtue of some legal technicality, it would still affect my view of them as a candidate.

niallers1

InigoMontoya wrote: »

Really?

I just see this as a technicality. If, for example, someone else had done something wrong, but they were "ok" by virtue of some legal technicality, it would still affect my view of them as a candidate.

That's one theory on morality.. There are other theories that would disagree.

jhegarty

niallers1 wrote: »

Lots of Irish Poeple are not running for President of Ireland.

If only

Monty Burnz

InigoMontoya wrote: »

Really?

I just see this as a technicality. If, for example, someone else had done something wrong, but they were "ok" by virtue of some legal technicality, it would still affect my view of them as a candidate.

It's a technicality if a presidential candidate hides the fact that they've renounced their citizenship of and loyalty to a country they are trying to become president of?

I'm baffled.

bernardo mac

Taking the Oath-just like singing one of her songs.

Zubeneschamali

Monty Burnz wrote: »

It's a technicality if a presidential candidate hides the fact that they've renounced their citizenship

She didn't renounce her citizenship, she's a dual citizen.

FloatingVoter

Dana won't be president though she would provode us with plenty of laughs. However if McGuinness gets in he will still be a subject of the Queen. I wonder will he bow when she arrives.

Serious point - it does not matter. Look how respected the "birthers" are in the US. President Obama of Kenya is doing a fine job of being a one term prez without them.

pubview

dvpower wrote: »

Maybe she thought she was talking about the EU

Interesting you should mention the EU, as 2 considerations may arise in respect of Dana's claims.

Firstly, I'm sure some journos are checking whether Dana was allowed to be a member of the Euro Parliament if she was a US citizen. MEPs are supposed to be solely members of their respective states and not citizens of states outside the EU.

Secondly, Dana put on the poor mouth for the American court, claiming she was practically skint having lost her MEP job. However, ex-MEPs get sort-of 'parachute payments' (like football clubs relegated from the English Premier League) for a number of years; they get a percentage of their former salary, a lump sum and other expenses - not to mention being in some circumstances eligible (on age or infirmity grounds among others) for immediate payment of their Euro pension.

I fail to see then how Dana was almost skint.

Monty Burnz

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

She didn't renounce her citizenship, she's a dual citizen.

But the whole point of the oath is that she has to renounce loyalty to any other country.

Zubeneschamali

Monty Burnz wrote: »

But the whole point of the oath is that she has to renounce loyalty to any other country.

Here's the oath the President takes:

In the presence of Almighty God I, (name), do solemnly and sincerely promise and declare that I will maintain the Constitution of Ireland and uphold its laws, that I will fulfil my duties faithfully and conscientiously in accordance with the Constitution and the law, and that I will dedicate my abilities to the service and welfare of the people of Ireland. May God direct and sustain me.

Here's the offending part of the US citizenship oath:

I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen;

Technically, they do not conflict. Renouncing and abjuring allegiance and fidelity to the Irish State back in 97 doesn't stop her fulfilling her duties now.

Of course, the optics aren't good, especially when you consider that she was an MEP representing folks in Ireland when she took that American oath.

pubview

Of course, another issue possibly arises about Mrs Scallon's membership of the European Parliament while being a US citizen.

Did she have any input into any decision-making or policy-making in relation to United States matters ? If she had sworn allegiance to America, then she was duty-bound as a US citizen to uphold, defend and promote its interests. Will the EU now have to do a trawl back through anything she was involved in ?

dvpower

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Of course, the optics aren't good, especially when you consider that she was an MEP representing folks in Ireland when she took that American oath.

And that she didn't feel the need to tell the people she was representing at the time that she was taking this oath.

oceanclub

Interestingly, this fact was mentioned in 2007 on her Wikipedia page, but deleted due to a lack of reference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dana_Rosemary_Scallon

Was there any mention in the press at all of her US citizenship before this?

P.

pubview

Dana has now issued a Statement on this :

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/dana-i-didnt-think-it-was-a-problem-to-hide-us-citizenship-523515.html

Apparently, it's all OUR fault for not asking her about something we didn't know about and she didn't tell us of.

Well, that's me sorted for starters !

dvpower

Dana on Radio 1:
She can't remember taking the oath, but remembers that she needed to raise her hand when saying it and remembers that no bible was involved.

Not doing at all well.

Corsendonk

She is on the RTE News at 1 now quoting Dev as a defense even do he gave up his US citizenship. She is now complaining about the colonisation of Ireland by Europe. Someone plus tell her that the President doesn't have the power for mass deportation of non Irish citizens.

MadsL

Corsendonk wrote: »

She is on the RTE News at 1 now quoting Dev as a defense even do he gave up his US citizenship. She is now complaining about the colonisation of Ireland by Europe. Someone plus tell her that the President doesn't have the power for mass deportation of non Irish citizens.

No issue with dual citizenship but if she starts spouting this anti-immigration line then let's tear her passport up and sent her back!!