RIP - Steve Jobs - "Don't be trapped by dogma"

robindch

I'd never connected Jobs with religion before, and it seems that he didn't either. From the quotes section of the BBC's obituary page page, and the strange thread on Jobs in the Other Forum, I think the following are worth a few seconds of anybody's time:

Steve Jobs wrote:

Remembering that I'll be dead soon is the most important tool I've ever encountered to help me make the big choices in life. Because almost everything - all external expectations, all pride, all fear of embarrassment or failure - these things just fall away in the face of death, leaving only what is truly important. Remembering that you are going to die is the best way I know to avoid the trap of thinking you have something to lose. You are already naked. There is no reason not to follow your heart.

Your time is limited, so don't waste it living someone else's life. Don't be trapped by dogma - which is living with the results of other people's thinking. Don't let the noise of others' opinions drown out your own inner voice.

Steve Jobs wrote:

Being the richest man in the cemetery doesn't matter to me… Going to bed at night saying we've done something wonderful… that's what matters to me.

tricky D

Sad thread on the other forum, oneupmanship when the body isn't yet cold and ignorant of aspects of Buddhism and what he brought to the table of life.

Beruthiel

robindch wrote: »

I'd never connected Jobs with religion before, and it seems that he didn't either. From the quotes section of the BBC's obituary page page, and the strange thread on Jobs in the Other Forum

I do my best to never enter that forum and now you've led me straight into that loonie bin thread and I had to comment.
Thanks.
:mad:

CiaranMT

Jeez. What a train-wreck that is.

As regards Jobs, I don't really have anything to say, other than it's such a sad sight to see him die so young.

nozzferrahhtoo

Well some of Jimi's fellow Christians are already preparing to almost literally dance on the mans grave, so it hardly surprises me that there are people on the "other forum" that are happy to call his life meaningless without god.

A true miracle would have been if at least one user over that side of the fence DIDNT jump on it.

Though laughingly the people who detract from him most do so while using his technologies. That made me smile a grand big old smile.

robindch

Beruthiel wrote: »

I had to comment.

Likewise. Sometimes it's difficult to be polite...

magicbastarder

all very ironic considering how many people treated jobs like the messiah.

Beruthiel

You know what really makes me laugh, those religious people, who allegedly follow a loving god and who are supposed to show love as part of that, are in fact, the most intolerant, unloving bunch of humans you are ever likely to encounter.

goose2005

Beruthiel wrote: »

You know what really makes me laugh, those religious people, who allegedly follow a loving god and who are supposed to show love as part of that, are in fact, the most intolerant, unloving bunch of humans you are ever likely to encounter.

God is only "loving" for a given value of love. Like the Neverending Story.

Liamario

Beruthiel wrote: »

You know what really makes me laugh, those religious people, who allegedly follow a loving god and who are supposed to show love as part of that, are in fact, the most intolerant, unloving bunch of humans you are ever likely to encounter.

Couldn't agree more. I just can't fathom how they can't see it themselves.
They openly contradict everything the bible (which the claim to be adamant followers of) teaches them.

amacachi

Beruthiel wrote: »

You know what really makes me laugh, those religious people, who allegedly follow a loving god and who are supposed to show love as part of that, are in fact, the most intolerant, unloving bunch of humans you are ever likely to encounter.

My favorite bit is how it's vain to live without faith. Somehow it's less vain to insist that you're special and that God put you here for a hugely important reason that only he knows. :pac:

dmw07

Beruthiel wrote: »

You know what really makes me laugh, those religious people, who allegedly follow a loving god and who are supposed to show love as part of that, are in fact, the most intolerant, unloving bunch of humans you are ever likely to encounter.

True that, in my experience.

Liamario

I think for a lot of these so called christians, that in their hearts and minds, they have doubts as to whether there really is a god. So, by making such statements, it is in order for them to feel better about their own inadequacies and mortality.

smokingman

Is wicknight a christian now? :eek:

robindch

smokingman wrote: »

Is wicknight a christian now?

Nope, he's a zombrex.

smokingman

robindch wrote: »

Nope, he's a zombrex.

I was just a bit amazed at his defence of jimi phelps over there.
I'm not an apple fanboy (like many guys around my office) but I was still sad to hear the news this morning.

Seeing that thread and then the backtracking that ensued (context! context!) has just reduced my hopes for humanity yet again.

Sickening.

ShooterSF

I don't find what he posted offensive it's just a sad outlook on life. How could someone motivate themselves to do anything in life if everything is futile?

davoxx

ShooterSF wrote: »

I don't find what he posted offensive it's just a sad outlook on life. How could someone motivate themselves to do anything in life if everything is futile?

money?

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

atheists, never missing an opportunity to make themselves feel superior to religious people.

robindch

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

atheists [...] superior to religious people.

Given some of the comments made by the religious in the other thread, I think that's setting a pretty low bar.

Sarky

Interesting chap, that Steve Jobs. Never really liked Apple (actually, I dislike them intensely for several reasons), but I can appreciate that they brought out some very clever little gadgets. Granted, it took other companies to make versions of them that were actually affordable and standardised, but that's not the point of innovation I suppose.

That someone could consider the levels of achievement and global change that the guy managed to attain in his short life futile is... Interesting. A reasonably valid point about the long term futility of life, very badly made.

I guess I'm just an illiterate moron though for thinking that. Oh well, best get back to my pointless scientific research and worldly achievements. I mean, I'll be dead in 30 to 40 years, right? That's not much time to do something that'll help humanity...

Zombrex

smokingman wrote: »

I was just a bit amazed at his defence of jimi phelps over there.
I'm not an apple fanboy (like many guys around my office) but I was still sad to hear the news this morning.

Seeing that thread and then the backtracking that ensued (context! context!) has just reduced my hopes for humanity yet again.

Sickening.

I'll remind everyone here about Jimi's thread the next time a Christian on this forum says they find our comments on life and religion offensive and we all say he is being ridiculous. There are plenty of threads on this forum talking about how much of a shame it is to spend (waste) your life in service of a non-existent deity and a church of manipulative power hungry men

What is good for the goose is good for the gander :eek:

AhSureTisGrand

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

atheists, never missing an opportunity to make themselves feel superior to religious people.

Glad to see you've seized the opportunity to feel superior to atheists

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

raah!

Robindch, this thread is the worst thing I've ever seen on this forum.

It's not difficult to see that in the other thread people were interpreting it in ways which suited their views of "intolerant religious people". If you take off your bigot's glasses for a moment you will see that it's a thread whose purpose is not to celebrate jobs' death. Just the natural reaction that many people have to death when it is so plainly presented before them. And the particular death of jobs, which was sudden and unexpected, served as a good partuclar example of the more general issues that come with death.

robindch

Plowman wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

It's whatever posters want it to be -- in this case, most seem to want to discuss religious presumption and lack of sympathy.

mikom

The now locked Steve Jobs thread leads me to think that some of those who follow organised religion would probably top themselves if they didn't have a God to cling to.

robindch

raah! wrote: »

It's not difficult to see that in the other thread people were interpreting it in ways which suited their views of "intolerant religious people".

As I said in my own first post there, the original post stated a few traditional christian views which, when appearing in the context of Jobs' death, are shown for what they are -- presumptuous and unsympathetic.

It's true actually, I suppose we shouldn't turn his RIP thread into sniping

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

Robert ninja

mikom wrote: »

The now locked Steve Jobs thread leads me to think that some of those who follow organised religion would probably top themselves if they didn't have a God to cling to.

Religious people say they'd do all manner of crazy things if they believed there was no god... but just look the atheists around... most of them were religious and probably thought the same thing. If they're sane and kind people, it has nothing to do with their religion even if they think otherwise... that's why losing it won't make them go serial killer rapist in two seconds flat, even if they think it might. That's one of the most hurtful things I see and get angry about with religion... it makes the nice people I know credit their religion for all the good things they do.

Zombrex

raah! wrote: »

Robindch, this thread is the worst thing I've ever seen on this forum.

It's not difficult to see that in the other thread people were interpreting it in ways which suited their views of "intolerant religious people". If you take off your bigot's glasses for a moment you will see that it's a thread whose purpose is not to celebrate jobs' death. Just the natural reaction that many people have to death when it is so plainly presented before them. And the particular death of jobs, which was sudden and unexpected, served as a good partuclar example of the more general issues that come with death.

After making a number of posts on the other forum about people rushing to be offended the most, I would remind you of the same point.

To paraphrase Lock Stock and Two Smoking Barrels

Could everyone stop getting offended!!

raah!

As I said in my own first post there, the original post stated a few traditional christian views which, when appearing in the context of Jobs' death, are shown for what they are -- presumptuous and unsympathetic.

Now, I'm sure you understand that what they saw it as were "triumphing over the death of a materialist etc." . This is the understanding that you are now trying to profit from in your thread here.

Everyone already knows how christians view things like worldly success. Some people understood the thread, and some people saw it as "nanananan , jobs wasn't religious and now he's dead, hahahah". This is incorrect, and if you're not completely blinded by your desire to demonise religious people you'd see it was incorrect too. And it is this obviously incorrect instance of bigotted ignorance that you are now using to rouse peoples hatred of religious people.

So it's rather ironic that by falsely presenting jimi as trying to score points of a tradjedy, and sneer at the recently deseased and then following up here with your "rip thread" full of sympathies and based entirely around a certain interpretation of jimi's thread, you show the worst side of this new atheist movement, and the worst kind of point scoring from the tradjedies that so frequently occur.

Just as people like you jumped on the chance to call that brevik fellow a christian, and use this false interpretation to incite people to hate christians. You never seem to miss an oppurtunity to inspire hared of the religious. This thread was the most obvious instance of this I've ever seen.

Robert ninja

Zombrex I don't know what kind of ego trip you're on here but you're making your mind up that people are 'offended'. I didn't see a single post in that thread where someone said outright that they were offended. Not only that, you even said why am *I* offended. Quote,

Exactly, and do you take offense to everyone who has a different opinion to you?If you do you must spend most of your life in a rather angry state.

I wasn't offended at all in that thread. Disgusted... dissapointed, not offended. And when I call you out on this... when I show you that you're just saying, 'everyone has opinions stop getting offended' is not useful at all... you suddenly think you know how I feel most of my life. Reality check, you have no idea how I feel most of my life. All you've been doing is getting irritated that people are expressing their opinions to each other on an internet forum and then thinking you're the only one wise enough to see past all of it.

raah!

Zombrex wrote: »

After making a number of posts on the other forum about people rushing to be offended the most, I would remind you of the same point.

To paraphrase Lock Stock and Two Smoking Barrels

Could everyone stop getting offended!!

I commend you for your work over there Zombrex, but I'm not offended by atheistic ideas. It wasn't "general christian views of death" that were offending people in the other thread either. It was their preceiving it as something like "hah jobs is dead".

I think becuase the death was so sudden, even though most people probably don't really care about jobs, (I certainly don't, not in any personal or emotional sense) they were still struck by the reality of death. Robindch is now taking advantage of the addled interpretations of the people in that thread to get people to lower their estimation of other people.

That is some atheistic proposition or interpretation of matters, but a deliberate political manoeuvre. And those sort of things do offend me.

Then again maybe I'm wrong, maybe I should just stop being offended.

Robert ninja

raah! wrote: »

Now, I'm sure you understand that what they saw it as were "triumphing over the death of a materialist etc." . This is the understanding that you are now trying to profit from in your thread here.

Everyone already knows how christians view things like worldly success. Some people understood the thread, and some people saw it as "nanananan , jobs wasn't religious and now he's dead, hahahah".

Actually I don't remember anyone saying that. All the posts I saw were legitimate objections to the OPs point that Jobs' life and legacy were meaningless without god. That's the truth of the OP and that's the truth of the responces. No christian said they were happy Jobs was dead or were laughing because his life was meaningless... even the OP had a tone that sounded kind of sad that the life was wasted (which i fundamentally disagree with but understand). All the heathen responces were to the rediculousness of the OPs 'ponder'. You're trying to paint the picture worse than it is.

raah!

It was not the "general christian views on a materialistic life" that offended people. But the "dancing on a grave" and "celeberating the particular death of one just deceased". There is ample evidence of that in this thread too, as well as that thread. See refernces too "tasteless" "classless" etc. It should be obvious what these thigns refer to, and perhaps you'll understand that when you're a bit older. Anyway, I've been offended enough.

philologos

Have yet to see the thread on the other forum. However, doesn't Buddhism count as a "dogma"? Or is it only Abrahamic religions that pass the criteria of "dogma".

ed2hands

Steve Jobs RIP. I didn't think much of Jimis wording either on first reading. But in saying that...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hc--dFFp7mY

Adamantium

ShooterSF wrote: »

I don't find what he posted offensive it's just a sad outlook on life. How could someone motivate themselves to do anything in life if everything is futile?

the value is in the doing

Robert ninja

@raah!

Nobody truely thinks that anyone is dancing on his grave... no christians are and no atheists are. I say again, you're trynig to paint this picture much worse than it actually is for the very reasons you yourself state in your own posts as to why you're offended... to make people lower the estimation of each other. And please don't get all 'grow up' with me... I'm not being a hypocrite like you are

ed2hands

Robert ninja wrote: »

I wasn't offended at all in that thread. Disgusted... dissapointed, not offended.

MagicMarker

raah! wrote: »

Now, I'm sure you understand that what they saw it as were "triumphing over the death of a materialist etc." . This is the understanding that you are now trying to profit from in your thread here.

Everyone already knows how christians view things like worldly success. Some people understood the thread, and some people saw it as "nanananan , jobs wasn't religious and now he's dead, hahahah". This is incorrect, and if you're not completely blinded by your desire to demonise religious people you'd see it was incorrect too. And it is this obviously incorrect instance of bigotted ignorance that you are now using to rouse peoples hatred of religious people.

So it's rather ironic that by falsely presenting jimi as trying to score points of a tradjedy, and sneer at the recently deseased and then following up here with your "rip thread" full of sympathies and based entirely around a certain interpretation of jimi's thread, you show the worst side of this new atheist movement, and the worst kind of point scoring from the tradjedies that so frequently occur.

Just as people like you jumped on the chance to call that brevik fellow a christian, and use this false interpretation to incite people to hate christians. You never seem to miss an oppurtunity to inspire hared of the religious. This thread was the most obvious instance of this I've ever seen.

dmw07

raah! wrote: »

I commend you for your work over there Zombrex, but I'm not offended by atheistic ideas. It wasn't "general christian views of death" that were offending people in the other thread either. It was their preceiving it as something like "hah jobs is dead".

I think becuase the death was so sudden, even though most people probably don't really care about jobs, (I certainly don't, not in any personal or emotional sense) they were still struck by the reality of death. Robindch is now taking advantage of the addled interpretations of the people in that thread to get people to lower their estimation of other people.

That is some atheistic proposition or interpretation of matters, but a deliberate political manoeuvre. And those sort of things do offend me.

Then again maybe I'm wrong, maybe I should just stop being offended.

I followed both threads and while i would agree with you that this thread should be dedicated more to the memory of Steve Jobs more so than the posts in the other thread. I however never saw the other thread as a ha, ha he's not religious and is now dead. Our god does not love him, ha ha kind of way. I saw it as an insult to insinuate that Steve Jobs' life was meaningless because he did not have faith. The OP backed his opinion up with a quote from Solomon and then when this was pointed out to him he back tracked and tried to claim he had a Solomon moment and it was nothing about Jobs.

For me, Robindch did not try sway opinion. The OP did that.

Gordon

Steve Jobs wrote:

Your time is limited, so don't waste it living someone else's life. Don't be trapped by dogma - which is living with the results of other people's thinking. Don't let the noise of others' opinions drown out your own inner voice.

I think this is a great quote, I've experienced, and am thinking a lot about this kind of thing lately at work. Success doesn't always come about due to following the pack, towing the line, ticking all the boxes; success is in the mind of the beholder, that's all. You don't have to write corporate emails in corporate speak, you don't have to give up on a great idea because someone in authority thinks it's a non-starter - trust your passion, and don't let it be doused by 'dogma'.

The fact that religion has been brought into it is a bit away from the point IMO, but I did have to lol heartily at the legacy vs godlessness comment - what delusional idiocy could come up with that trottery is beyond me.

strobe

raah! wrote: »

I think becuase the death was so sudden, even though most people probably don't really care about jobs, (I certainly don't, not in any personal or emotional sense) they were still struck by the reality of death. Robindch is now taking advantage of the addled interpretations of the people in that thread to get people to lower their estimation of other people.

Bullsh1t Raah! (I'm not shouting but that ! again). I can't speak for Robin but what I took from his OP was "I've never really heard or considered Jobs' views on religion before, but looking at the quotes from here posted on this obituary site and in this thread it seems he was probably not a believer in an after life, like most A&A's." A perfectly understandable thread to start in the A&A forum and one that has had many counterparts in the past. I didn't know Jobs held these views which in many ways match my own (and many others on this forum) and found it interesting to learn of them.

But as you were saying, if people could just drop their preconceptions about certain types of people, take off their 'bigot's glasses' for a second maybe they wouldn't be so quick to leap in with the smarmy "oh look it's one of those guys being an asshole as usual. Ha ha ha I didn't expect any more from you lot" comments.

What you are over here just orgasmicaly loving the chance to ridicule people who misjudged Jimmi's (probably pretty easy to misenterpret, as he said himself) post for, you are excruciatingly, painfully, just as guilty of with Robin's.

Take your own 'advice'.

Uggghh...

Tomk1

I don't care what Steve Jobs religious stance was, I wouldn't care if he was an Atheist, agnostic, christian or even muslim.

I appreciate him for just being himself, one of the moxt inspirational people of the modern-era.
The first computer I ever seen and used was an Apple II that was donated to the school by Apple-Cork. I've always have been a fan of SJ even when I was still called a Roman-catholic, though I've never owned one piece of Apple-tech.

Mods please don't let this thrend turn into 'that other thrend'

MagicMarker

Personally, I love my mac, I'll never buy another Windows PC/laptop again.

My android phone rocks though. :cool:

irishh_bob

mikom wrote: »

The now locked Steve Jobs thread leads me to think that some of those who follow organised religion would probably top themselves if they didn't have a God to cling to.

i think a lot more people would top themselves if they were sure thier wasnt a god on the other side to punish them

DubTony

It's amazing what one can find on boards. I was looking through the thread titles on the front page and saw this thread. The OP brought me to the other thread. (I didn't even know there was a Religion forum on here). I'm a bit sorry I found it now. But it is good to know where the bigots, condescenders and self righteous hang out.

Regarding the Stanford speech. I didn't consider any of what he said as having a religious context. As someone who doesn't fit comfortably into the atheist or agnostic box (I haven't found the "I don't give a damn" box), I rarely look at things from a theistic point of view; so my understanding of the speech was that he felt we shouldn't fit into [more] boxes, but should live our lives according to our own personal values. I understood him to mean that so many of us waste our lives following someone else's ideal (or dream) and living lives of quiet desperation, instead of going out and making our mark on the world. By failing to do so we die with "the music still in us" so to speak.

So I guess all these arguments and misunderstanding come from the values that we each individually hold, and really have little to do with what others say. It's our perception, and our consideration, of what they said, that causes the problem. Having said that, it is good to know where the bigots hang out.

The Quadratic Equation

DubTony wrote: »

But it is good to know where the bigots, condescenders and self righteous hang out.

Sad to say, you sound exactly like one.