Education Reform

Amirani

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/1006/1224305331062.html

Ireland no longer has a single university in the top 100 in the World. It's laughable how Governments and public bodies still try to promote Ireland as a knowledge economy.

THE GOVERNMENT is facing fresh pressure from university presidents to reintroduce college fees after Trinity College, Dublin, and UCD both slipped dramatically down a world university ranking published this morning.

In a devastating blow for the Irish higher education sector, Ireland has for the first time no representation within the top 100 in the prestigious Times Higher Education World University Rankings .

Trinity is down 41 places to 117, while the slump for UCD is even worse. It is down 65 places to 159.

The decline comes as both colleges struggle to deal with a funding crisis; this has led to a higher staff to student ratios, larger classes and poorer facilities.

Last night the new provost of Trinity Paddy Prendergast said the rankings “reflect a high-performing world-class university . . . let down by reduced income, falling staffing levels and a decreasing staff to student ratio”.

UCD president Dr Hugh Brady said: “We are working harder and longer with far less but it will be difficult for us and for all of the Irish universities to compete in the years ahead unless the nettle of higher education funding is grasped.”

Aside from TCD and UCD, no other Irish university makes the top 200. University College Cork is ranked between 301 and 350. Both NUI Galway and NUI Maynooth are ranked between 350 and 400, while the DCU and DIT have fallen out of the top 400.

Amid growing unease in the university sector about the funding crisis, Minister for Education Ruairí Quinn has refused to rule out the return of college fees since taking office. But this has drawn severe criticism from student groups. Mr Quinn signed a pre-election pledge promising no increase in student charges earlier this year.

Next month, a report from the Higher Education Authority is due to warn that the higher education system will be unable to compete internationally – or deal with a projected 30 per cent increase in student numbers over the next decade – without a quantum leap in funding.

Yesterday, one senior university figure told The Irish Times: “Ruairí Quinn has to stop all the procrastination. He has to bite the bullet and bring back fees. There is no alternative.”

Phil Baty, editor of the Times Higher Education World University Ranking, said: “There’s no getting away from the fact the latest rankings are very bad news for Ireland . . . But this is no surprise: the financial crisis is starting to hurt . . . Ireland is facing stark choices with the future of its world-famous universities at stake.”

Overall, Ireland is ranked a lowly 17th for its higher education system. However, it is ranked 6th when GDP or income is taken into account. Among British and Irish universities, Trinity is the 16th best while UCD is ranked 30th.

The rankings judge universities on 13 performance indicators, making these the only world rankings to examine all core missions of a modern global university – research, teaching, knowledge transfer and international activity.

They include the world’s largest academic reputation survey and an analysis of 50 million citations which are compared with the world average from the same field.

In a surprising finding, the California Institute of Technology is ranked as the world’s leading higher education college ahead of Harvard and Stanford which share second place.

The other institutions to make the top 10 are Oxford University (4th), Princeton University (5th), University of Cambridge (6th), Massachusetts Institute of Technology (7th), Imperial College London (8th), University of Chicago (9th) and University of California, Berkeley (10th).

American universities continue to dominate, with 75 institutions in the top 200.

herosa

What about the northern ones eg Queens? They were in the international news twice this year once for some big medical breakthrough that might cut off the blood supply to cancerous tumours
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/06/110606181137.htm

There was something else where they hit the headlines for reducing the scary amounts of radiation a patient is exposed to during a ct scan. You would wonder where they would stand after all that? Maybe they meant the ROI as opposed to Ireland as an island?

I agree op it is not great for us. With all the hullabaloo over the presidential election an article like this slips under the radar. Its odd too because as soon as Irish education is mentioned in the media it is usually accompanied by a rush of positive comments eg we are well educated/have a high standard of education here in Ireland etc. After reading your article I would have to wonder what facts we are basing that optimism on.

gerryg80

[QUOTE;74784333]http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/1006/1224305331062.html

Yesterday, one senior university figure told The Irish Times: “Ruairí Quinn has to stop all the procrastination. He has to bite the bullet and bring back fees. There is no alternative.”[/QUOTE]

Which is could result in less of a skilled workforce in favor of a better international ranking?

TheyKnowMyIP

Not gonna happen. The Education systems sucks for a very good reason...

TheyKnowMyIP

gerryg80 wrote: »

[QUOTE;74784333]http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/1006/1224305331062.html

Yesterday, one senior university figure told The Irish Times: “Ruairí Quinn has to stop all the procrastination. He has to bite the bullet and bring back fees. There is no alternative.”

Which is could result in less of a skilled workforce in favor of a better international ranking?

He is right. Allowing every tom, dick and Harry into University will bring standards down as resources are directed away from those that most need them. Universities are Research Institutions, not job centers.

herosa

TheyKnowMyIP wrote: »

Not gonna happen. The Education systems sucks for a very good reason...

What ?

4leto

Teaching the best well paid part-time job in the country and yet they are militant.

wild_cat

TheyKnowMyIP wrote: »

He is right. Allowing every tom, dick and Harry into University will bring standards down as resources are directed away from those that most need them. Universities are Research Institutions, not job centers.

But if they've reached the required points to get in?

Surely that's not admitting every Tom, Dick and Harry......

Also.. it probably shows that the points system is a load of toss that actually proves very little about someone's actual abilities.

TheyKnowMyIP

herosa wrote: »

What ?

The design of the Educational system is intentional. They didn't just wake up one day and state "wow, the system is broken!". The media will feed you bull**** about "improvement" and such, but it's merely noise.

Schools are designed to be dogmatic by nature. Don't believe me? Why are they teaching bull**** like CPSE? It's indoctrination by another name.

Saila

herosa wrote: »

What about the northern ones eg Queens? .

you mean the one in the United Kingdom ? and not the republic of ireland

TheyKnowMyIP

wild_cat wrote: »

But if they've reached the required points to get in?

Surely that's not admitting every Tom, Dick and Harry......

Also.. it probably shows that the points system is a load of toss that actually proves very little about someone's actual abilities.

Points system isn't a load of toss. It's actually fair yet flawed. It's the best we have given the obsession with third level education in this country. No, Mrs Smith, you're son is a pisshead and should not be in college! You're just trying to keep up with the Joans. University = Research Institution!

Pherekydes

wild_cat wrote: »

But if they've reached the required points to get in?

People get in with zero points.

People target points as the be-all and end-all. The system's opponents bemoan the fact that students are point-winning automatons; the system's proponents are not setting students up correctly for university.

The Times' table is heavily biased towards money. Is that the overriding indicator of third level success?

smk89

Saila wrote: »

you mean the one in the United Kingdom ? and not the republic of ireland

Have you ever been to Queens? The amount of Irish students that do **** in their lc and go up there is amazing.

Besides lets have a little balance here, we have 2 universities in the top 120 in the world!! Us, a small Island with few people or resources.

Saila

TheyKnowMyIP wrote: »

University = place to go get a degree

better.

Saila

smk89 wrote: »

Have you ever been to Queens? The amount of Irish students that do **** in their lc and go up there is amazing.

that still doesnt make it Irish

smk89

Saila wrote: »

that still doesnt make it Irish

Whatever, its still on the island

Pherekydes

smk89 wrote: »

Have you ever been to Queens? The amount of Irish students that do **** in their lc and go up there is amazing.

Irish students go to Loughborough, Bangor, Harvard and many other universities overseas. It doesn't make them Irish.

Queen's calls itself a UK university.

P.S. ...number of Irish students...

Pherekydes

TheyKnowMyIP wrote: »

Points system isn't a load of toss. It's actually fair yet flawed. It's the best we have given the obsession with third level education in this country. No, Mrs Smith, you're son is a pisshead and should not be in college! You're just trying to keep up with the Joans. University = Research Institution!

Your.
Keeping up with the Joneses.


Can we have more educational reform?

herosa

Saila wrote: »

you mean the one in the United Kingdom ? and not the republic of ireland

Thats why I said maybe they mean the ROI and not the island of Ireland? Anyway Im sorry I asked because this thread could go down the " Are NI people Irish?" route which wouldnt be fair to OP. I was just curious thats all.

StephenHendry

i couldn't give a toss about where trinity , ucd etc. league position in the university league. id be more than happy to see them relegated if it meant more kids had the opportunity to go to college from really poor backgrounds where for lots of them , their life will mean the need to graduate from the university of crime to be classed as a success. fees or no fees is irelevant for them as without support these kids will never get the same opportunity as others who are more well off

TheyKnowMyIP

Pherekydes wrote: »

Your.
Keeping up with the Joneses.


Can we have more educational reform?

It worked:)

Gotta love the grammer Nazi's.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

TheyKnowMyIP wrote: »

It worked:)

Gotta love the grammer Nazi's.

He mistook you apostrophe addiction for bad grammar.

4leto

StephenHendry wrote: »

i couldn't give a toss about where trinity , ucd etc. league position in the university league. id be more than happy to see them relegated if it meant more kids had the opportunity to go to college from really poor backgrounds where for lots of them , their life will mean the need to graduate from the university of crime to be classed as a success. fees or no fees is irelevant for them as without support these kids will never get the same opportunity as others who are more well off

That the thing about the experiment in free third level university. It didn't make a difference to the student demographic, there was no increase in kids from these deprived areas that took up third level education.

What it did mean was, the people who could normally and comfortably afford to send their kid to college did so for free. Then the universities suffered through lack of funding and the quality of the degrees faltered.

I will try find the link of that study

So to be edited+++++++++

Amirani

StephenHendry wrote: »

i couldn't give a toss about where trinity , ucd etc. league position in the university league. id be more than happy to see them relegated if it meant more kids had the opportunity to go to college from really poor backgrounds where for lots of them , their life will mean the need to graduate from the university of crime to be classed as a success. fees or no fees is irelevant for them as without support these kids will never get the same opportunity as others who are more well off

How can one consider oneself a success when you graduate only to find out that despite everything you worked for you're going to be unemployed? Transnationals aren't just going to continue to locate in this country when education is so undervalued. Improving standards in universities and creating better graduates is the best solution to Ireland's economic woes. A true knowledge economy where education is valued and funded accordingly will foster innovation and job creation. Jobs in areas that will provide the people you speak about with a true sense of self-worth. Ireland today is not a knowledge economy, it's a tax haven for multinational corporations.

Amirani

smk89 wrote: »

Have you ever been to Queens? The amount of Irish students that do **** in their lc and go up there is amazing.

Besides lets have a little balance here, we have 2 universities in the top 120 in the world!! Us, a small Island with few people or resources.

We don't. We only have one university in the top 120 - Trinity @ 117.

We may be a small island with few people but we've decided to become a high-cost, supposedly knowledge economy. The UK has 15 universities ahead of us. Which do you think that employers will consider the knowledge economy? Ireland has no other unique selling point.

TheyKnowMyIP

niallsparky wrote: »

We don't. We only have one university in the top 120 - Trinity @ 117.

It's embarrassing alright. Might have something to do with the secondary read and regurgitate culture though. Mind you, I have seen enough tossors with Tenure in my time across various Colleges. Ireland stands out though for the sheer lack of quality with respect to Research AND teaching. It's laughable.

Amirani

TheyKnowMyIP wrote: »

It's embarrassing alright. Might have something to do with the secondary read and regurgitate culture though. Mind you, I have seen enough tossors with Tenure in my time across various Colleges. Ireland stands out though for the sheer lack of quality with respect to Research AND teaching. It's laughable.

Absolutely. There's a complete lack of an innovation culture in Ireland - the read and regurgitate system at second-level is just a symptom of it.

Naomi00

4leto wrote: »

That the thing about the experiment in free third level university. It didn't make a difference to the student demographic, there was no increase in kids from these deprived areas that took up third level education.

What it did mean was, the people who could normally and comfortably afford to send their kid to college did so for free. Then the universities suffered through lack of funding and the quality of the degrees faltered.

I will try find the link of that study

So to be edited+++++++++

NUIG gave a talk in my school recently (I'm in leaving cert), they bragged about how they had over €400 million to spend on their campus.

Lack of funding my ar$e.:rolleyes:

Last year my school had nearly run out of money during the first term, we weren't spending it on fancy crap like NUIG and other colleges do, just on basically running the school.
Obviously colleges should have more funding than schools but in this country they seem to keep cutting funds, seems to affect secondary schools more than primary schools, but colleges still get funding for unnecessary things?

Amirani

Naomi00 wrote: »

NUIG gave a talk in my school recently (I'm in leaving cert), they bragged about how they had over €400 million to spend on their campus.

Lack of funding my ar$e.:rolleyes:

Last year my school had nearly run out of money during the first term, we weren't spending it on fancy crap like NUIG and other colleges do, just on basically running the school.
Obviously colleges should have more funding than schools but in this country they seem to keep cutting funds, seems to affect secondary schools more than primary schools, but colleges still get funding for unnecessary things?

How exactly is having a campus unnecessary?

It's commonly understood that children need lower teacher:student ratios at primary school level for a number of reasons.

Wetai

Problem: No longer in top 100 universities/colleges.
Solution: Charge fees to students?

Do they get some sort of financial bonus for being within the top 100, that they want to reintroduce fees now that they're not?

whydoibother?

Here is how I would reform the educational system in Ireland.

Secondary school: Get rid of the leaving cert and replace it with the International Baccalaureate. It encourages more critical thinking. It is more respected internationally. People know what it is outside Ireland and know that it is a challenging course. Finally, it already exists. It would save us the time and expense of devising our own system. I don't know why we focus so much on doing that when there is a sort of "gold standard" already out there.

Third Level: Introduce fees but with a fair loan system such as in Australia, where people pay back, but only after their income goes above a certain level. (A reasonable level).
On the teaching side, don't have university lecturers correcting their own papers. With the best will in the world on their part, it's far too subjective. Make exam papers and marking schemes publicly available, a bit like leaving cert ones are now. I think this would be enough to make teaching standards more uniform. I realize that this is quite a radical departure, but I genuinely think it could work.

Celly Smunt

TheyKnowMyIP wrote: »

He is right. Allowing every tom, dick and Harry into University will bring standards down as resources are directed away from those that most need them. Universities are Research Institutions, not job centers.

so,we can only let every tom,dick and harry who have money in?

Bride2012

Full fees are definately needed with an increase in the grant thresholds. It's a tough one to manage though. The Oz model that was being looked at a few years ago whereby you can get a government loan and pay it back through your wages later on won't work here because everyone would emigrate.

TheyKnowMyIP

LiamN wrote: »

Problem: No longer in top 100 universities/colleges.
Solution: Charge fees to students?

Do they get some sort of financial bonus for being within the top 100, that they want to reintroduce fees now that they're not?

It's not that simple. It's the lack of research here. I know of several head Lecturers/Course co-ordinators that manage to pull a nice hefty wage under Tenure, yet haven't published anything beyond a few trivial articles in over 15 years. Research that people don't give a s4it about.

Seriously, I hate gloating but I've written more readable research myself over the years, minus the fancy loaded academia terms these people like to use. It's almost a way of covering up the simplicity of the research.

Outside of Real Research Institutions and Industrial Research places, most Academic Research is crap. At least in Ireland. This is the real reason for the slide.

whydoibother?

Bride2012 wrote: »

Full fees are definately needed with an increase in the grant thresholds. It's a tough one to manage though. The Oz model that was being looked at a few years ago whereby you can get a government loan and pay it back through your wages later on won't work here because everyone would emigrate.

You can build in conditions to avoid that e.g. the fees are only written off after 30 years (like UK). The person would have to emigrate for life which I doubt many would do just to avoid paying back tuition fees.
Or you could just simply have a condition that it doesn't matter where you live, you have to pay it back.

Amirani

LiamN wrote: »

Problem: No longer in top 100 universities/colleges.
Solution: Charge fees to students?

Do they get some sort of financial bonus for being within the top 100, that they want to reintroduce fees now that they're not?

Universities don't get enough funding from Government so they feel that reverting to being private institutions is the only way to be function successfully. The rankings just highlight the falls in standards across the boards in Irish institutions. The only inherent financial benefit to a high ranking is the ability to attract students from outside Ireland and the EU which is far more profitable.

Celly Smunt

Bride2012 wrote: »

Full fees are definately needed with an increase in the grant thresholds. It's a tough one to manage though. The Oz model that was being looked at a few years ago whereby you can get a government loan and pay it back through your wages later on won't work here because everyone would emigrate.

all that comes back to is letting dumb rich people in instead of dumb poor people,same level just with higher fees,totally counterproductive.


I honestly think the reintroduction of college fees could open a huge can of worms that would result in anarchy.

Bride2012

whydoibother? wrote: »

Bride2012 wrote: »

Full fees are definately needed with an increase in the grant thresholds. It's a tough one to manage though. The Oz model that was being looked at a few years ago whereby you can get a government loan and pay it back through your wages later on won't work here because everyone would emigrate.

You can build in conditions to avoid that e.g. the fees are only written off after 30 years (like UK). The person would have to emigrate for life which I doubt many would do just to avoid paying back tuition fees.
Or you could just simply have a condition that it doesn't matter where you live, you have to pay it back.

I like it but it'd be hard to enforce from anywhere.

Amirani

pmcmahon wrote: »

all that comes back to is letting dumb rich people in instead of dumb poor people,same level just with higher fees,totally counterproductive.


I honestly think the reintroduction of college fees could open a huge can of worms that would result in anarchy.

Firstly, it wouldn't be the same level because there would be bigger revenue streams available to colleges.

Secondly, a fees system can work provided it's backed by a good Government loan/grant scheme.

Why should those who can afford to pay not?

Bride2012

pmcmahon wrote: »

Bride2012 wrote: »

Full fees are definately needed with an increase in the grant thresholds. It's a tough one to manage though. The Oz model that was being looked at a few years ago whereby you can get a government loan and pay it back through your wages later on won't work here because everyone would emigrate.

all that comes back to is letting dumb rich people in instead of dumb poor people,same level just with higher fees,totally counterproductive.


I honestly think the reintroduction of college fees could open a huge can of worms that would result in anarchy.

The increase in grant thresholds would protect the poor.

whydoibother?

Bride2012 wrote: »

I like it but it'd be hard to enforce from anywhere.

Well, I agree it would be tougher if the person tried to wriggle out of paying and they were on the other side of the world. But I'm guessing that problem could exist whenever a significant debt is owed to anyone. I think a little extra effort on tough penalties and enforcement from day one in order to create an feeling that a person won't get away with it, would go a long way.

Amirani

Bride2012 wrote: »

I like it but it'd be hard to enforce from anywhere.

Even if there was a certain percentage of people who emigrated to avoid repaying loans, the loss to Government would be equivalent to the current system where they pay the fees for them. It's not like it's going to cost the State any more than at present.

Celly Smunt

niallsparky wrote: »

Firstly, it wouldn't be the same level because there would be bigger revenue streams available to colleges.

It would be the choice between two people of equal academical potential except one can afford to enter due to his/her background against the on who can't,that's the street level foundation of college fee's

niallsparky wrote: »

Secondly, a fees system can work provided it's backed by a good Government loan/grant scheme.

This would work i agree,but it would have to be fair and just,repayments would have to be over a long period and credit readily available,however results would not be retrieved for numerous years.

niallsparky wrote: »

Why should those who can afford to pay not?

I also agree here however,why should those who can't afford to pay not enter third level education?

Bride2012

whydoibother? wrote: »

Bride2012 wrote: »

I like it but it'd be hard to enforce from anywhere.

Well, I agree it would be tougher if the person tried to wriggle out of paying and they were on the other side of the world. But I'm guessing that problem could exist whenever a significant debt is owed to anyone. I think a little extra effort on tough penalties and enforcement from day one in order to create an feeling that a person won't get away with it, would go a long way.

I suppose that making examples of a few who try to wiggle out would go a long way towards compliance. I have major poatgrad fee loans with my credit union and it does hang over you.
I'd like a facility to owe it to the government instead and be able to pay from abroad.

Amirani

pmcmahon wrote: »

It would be the choice between two people of equal academical potential except one can afford to enter due to his/her background against the on who can't,that's the street level foundation of college fee's


This would work i agree,but it would have to be fair and just,and repayments would have to be readily available,however results would not be retrieved for numerous years.



I also agree here however,why should those who can't afford to pay not enter third level education?

Well it's hypothetical but I'd imagine university places would increase in line with extra funding. Somebody richer wouldn't necessarily receive precedence if the poorer person was back by a Government grant.

I couldn't agree more on the last point. If the introduction of third level fees provides too big a barrier to those unable to afford it then they should not be introduced. One would hope though that the State could provide the financial support necessary to allow these people to go to college. Perhaps even allowing a system of 50% private/50% public would be more efficient than we have now?

Chuck Stone

pmcmahon wrote: »

all that comes back to is letting dumb rich people in instead of dumb poor people,same level just with higher fees,totally counterproductive.

The difference is that dumb rich people can subsidize clever poor people.

I think it's only fair that the user pays. It would also help focus people on return on investment degree choices. i.e. not the hobby degrees which drain money from the tax payer with little return.

Amirani

Chuck Stone wrote: »

The difference is that dumb rich people can subsidize clever poor people.

That's the irony of the current system. Rich people paying fees would free up more "free" college places.

whydoibother?

Bride2012 wrote: »

I suppose that making examples of a few who try to wiggle out would go a long way towards compliance. I have major poatgrad fee loans with my credit union and it does hang over you.
I'd like a facility to owe it to the government instead and be able to pay from abroad.

Yes, I couldn't agree more. It's fairer to any genuine student who intends to pay their loans back to owe it to the government, and have a bit of leeway until they have a high enough income (or other reasonable conditions). Private bank loans are scary, particularly in tough economic times when a person doesn't know if they'll get employment immediately/in Ireland.

Celly Smunt

niallsparky wrote: »

Well it's hypothetical but I'd imagine university places would increase in line with extra funding. Somebody richer wouldn't necessarily receive precedence if the poorer person was back by a Government grant.

I didn't really mean the point as in preferential background,but more as a barrier for a disadvantaged person not being able to go to college over a person who's daddy will pay to send a person there.

niallsparky wrote: »

I couldn't agree more on the last point. If the introduction of third level fees provides too big a barrier to those unable to afford it then they should not be introduced. One would hope though that the State could provide the financial support necessary to allow these people to go to college. Perhaps even allowing a system of 50% private/50% public would be more efficient than we have now?

i think it should be more the best person for the place,rather than letting financial incentives decide,perhaps the same system as we have but that the tuition fees paid by the state would be repaid by the student leading to the state being able to be more generous to universities as the state is not losing out as such.

Naomi00

niallsparky wrote: »

How exactly is having a campus unnecessary?

It's commonly understood that children need lower teacher:student ratios at primary school level for a number of reasons.

I didn't say that, obviously they have a campus.

But they're spending €400 million on it for extra stuff. Not on the running of the college, but on making it a 'college of the future' is how they put it. I know people think we have to keep up with everyone else and all that (which is rubbish imo) but €400 million euro is a huge amount of money when they are cutting money from everything else.


I don't ususally get annoyed about stuff like that, but it's not something that they need, whereas lots of schools can't afford things they need/have had teachers cut which you actually need. I just think it's unfair to take things off the schools and at the same time be giving huge amounts of money to colleges. If they were putting the money into bringing in new courses or allowing more places in the college I wouldn't have a problem with that, that's what they should be doing.

Bride2012

The government can't slash funding and expect that the unis will hold their status. Charging undergrads €2,150 without tax relief or public loans and calling it free is a disgrace. Full fees with high grant thresholds and the option of loans for others is needed and soon.