so david norris is unable to work as a lecturer

flutered

but is able to work as a senator, also he hopes to be president, he draws 2.5k a month in disability payments, ans has done so for years, i cannot walk plus i have other serious illnesses, yet i am vetted every 6 months, my payments are roughly 780 euro per month, is there one law for the establishment and one for the poor, does he pay tax on this, has he declared this payment as income, why has he carte blanche and flutered and his ilk castigated, also been called a burden on the country,

Nodin

flutered wrote: »

but is able to work as a senator, also he hopes to be president, he draws 2.5k a month in disability payments, ans has done so for years, i cannot walk plus i have other serious illnesses, yet i am vetted every 6 months, my payments are roughly 780 euro per month, is there one law for the establishment and one for the poor, does he pay tax on this, has he declared this payment as income, why has he carte blanche and flutered and his ilk castigated, also been called a burden on the country,

The term "disability payments" is a bit of spin. They are paid by Trinity, they are not benefits from the state.

Aishae

The payments came from trinity not social welfare is what I gathered though?

Min

Here let me start David Norris's reply to what you have to sat.

"Can I just say...."

ok I don't know if he is going to lecture you on why he gets so much and is not disabled enough to continue working.

Tipp Man

Aishae wrote: »

The payments came from trinity not social welfare is what I gathered though?

But ultimately it comes from the states coffers doesn't it??

cgarrad

Can't be too f*cking disabled if he can rush all over the country in an election campaign...

We need less people like him not more.

Letters 4 pedos

Trying to pervert the system for his lover

Taking thirty thousand in what are basically state benefits from Trinity.

Do we really want people like that, really?

MadsL

But ultimately it comes from the states coffers doesn't it??

Not entirely; Trinity Foundation, Overseas fees, research awards and funding and tourism all add to the 'pot'.

So, no it doesn't.

dr.bollocko

cgarrad wrote: »

Taking thirty thousand in what are basically state benefits from Trinity.

Go on.

Show us how they are basically state benefits?

David Norris has defended taking tens of thousands of euro in disability payments from Trinity College for 16 years while a Senator.

The Presidential candidate said he was told to take the payment by Trinity after contracting Hepatitis "from water" while in Central Europe, and told he could not work there again.

At his official campaign launch this morning, he has revealed the payment is currently around €2,500 a month.

It was Non A, B or C Hepatitis, contracted from drinking water in Central Europe in 1994, and he said it left him so tired he was unable to do his job lecturing in Trinity, who told him to take the payment.

“I was medically advised it was not possible for me to undertake the stress of the very intensive lecturing and tutorial duties that I had,” he said.

Mr Norris said it was the university authorities who decided to place him on permanent disability and replace him with another academic, giving him time to focus on the Seanad.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/norris-trinity-told-me-to-take-disability-payments-523199.html#ixzz1ZueV7JuL

Tipp Man

MadsL wrote: »

Not entirely; Trinity Foundation, Overseas fees, research awards and funding and tourism all add to the 'pot'.

So, no it doesn't.

Your last line "no it doesn't" doesn't correlate with your opening line "not entirely"

While Trinity can and does have external sources of finance it - the taxpayer is still a major contributor of money to Trinity

So, yes it does (but maybe not in entirity)

Also what about the opportunity cost of Trinity having to pay him 2.5k a month when they could be paying it to a lecturer who would actually be doing some work for them

Nodin

Tipp Man wrote: »

......
Also what about the opportunity cost of Trinity having to pay him 2.5k a month when they could be paying it to a lecturer who would actually be doing some work for them

...presumably its something to do with tenure? He did work there for over twenty five years.

flutered

why have the payments continued for so long ?, given that he has found alternate employment why should his bank balance be cushioned like this, is it because he became a politican, if he becomes president would it lot look a bit odd if he has a disability payment each month, one can say that a disibility payment is to keep one going until one can return to gainful employment.

NinjaTruncs

The fact of where the money comes from is irrelevant,i feel it's more the fact that he's willing to claim disability payments from the college while not appearing to have any disability and while also working a number of other jobs. I feel this shows what his character is truly like.

It's yet another blow to his campagin.

Nodin

flutered wrote: »

why have the payments continued for so long ?, given that he has found alternate employment why should his bank balance be cushioned like this, is it because he became a politican, if he becomes president would it lot look a bit odd if he has a disability payment each month, one can say that a disibility payment is to keep one going until one can return to gainful employment.

...for the second time, its not the state benefit, and is more than likely to do with the contract with lecturers in Trinity.

Tipp Man

How many of these candidates have actually made money from a hard days work as opposed to being handed it by the government

Higgins - on a huge state pension after being on a huge state salary
Norris - on a disability pension at the same time as being on a large state salary
Mary Whatshername - has been getting paid by a list of state bodies as long as your arm - has done very well from the state
Mitchel - was on a large state salary and then a large European salary (not sure of his pension status but when he does start getting them they will be large state ones)
McGuinness - feed off the British taxpayer by claiming huge expenses and then not even attending westminister - and thats only the legal money he has made - nevermind the other stuff
Gallagher - to be fair i don't think he has been on the receiving end of that much state money - that we know of at least
Dana - same as Gallagher I believe

Whats obvious is that they most seem to be trough feeders and see this as just another cushy number

Nodin

Tipp Man wrote: »

How many of these candidates have actually made money from a hard days work as opposed to being handed it by the government

Higgins - on a huge state pension after being on a huge state salary
Norris - on a disability pension at the same time as being on a large state salary
Mary Whatshername - has been getting paid by a list of state bodies as long as your arm - has done very well from the state
Mitchel - was on a large state salary and then a large European salary (not sure of his pension status but when he does start getting them they will be large state ones)
McGuinness - feed off the British taxpayer by claiming huge expenses and then not even attending westminister - and thats only the legal money he has made - nevermind the other stuff
Gallagher - to be fair i don't think he has been on the receiving end of that much state money - that we know of at least
Dana - same as Gallagher I believe

Whats obvious is that they most seem to be trough feeders and see this as just another cushy number

....but anyone from politics will, logically, have been receiving a large state salary and, if they've been at it long enough, a pension of some sort.

GSF

Aishae wrote: »

The payments came from trinity not social welfare is what I gathered though?

and Trinity is funded by the State of course!

Nodin

GSF wrote: »

and Trinity is funded by the State of course!

...part funded.

Tipp Man

Nodin wrote: »

....but anyone from politics will, logically, have been receiving a large state salary and, if they've been at it long enough, a pension of some sort.

so long living off the taxpayer and nothing achieved with any of them

It's easier to debate reasons why they shouldn't be president rather than why they should

GSF

Nodin wrote: »

...part funded.

I saw this discussed further down page 1 of the thread already after I posted, and there isnt much to add that hasnt been said before.

Anyway it does seem bizzarre how he can be well enough to be a senator or president but not well enough to lecture in a university. Don't employers generally offer reduced workloads (either temporarily or permanently) before offering to put someone on full time disability payments? That would be the practice in the better private sector companies anyway.

Son Of A Vidic

It was Non A, B or C Hepatitis, contracted from drinking water in Central Europe in 1994, and he said it left him so tired he was unable to do his job lecturing in Trinity, who told him to take the payment.

Coming from a medical background, my view is that is absolutely bullshít. 'Disabled' for 16 years? No I suspect your true disability could only have been idleness perhaps.

GSF

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Coming from a medical background, my view is that is absolutely bullshít. 'Disabled' for 16 years? No I suspect your true disability could only have been idleness perhaps.

Doesnt seem to have been a 6 monthly review of his situation anyway. Real question is did TCD put him out to grass because he was a poor lecturer?

frisbeeface

GSF wrote: »

Doesnt seem to have been a 6 monthly review of his situation anyway. Real question is did TCD put him out to grass because he was a poor lecturer?

Nope, he still did occasional lectures when I was there a few years ago and was brilliant from what I heard.

flutered

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Coming from a medical background, my view is that is absolutely bullshít. 'Disabled' for 16 years? No I suspect your true disability could only have been idleness perhaps.

i would not say idelness, i would say geting two incomes at the same time was/is more attractive, no wonder this country is so fcuked up, politicians with snouts at the trough, i see the moaning one is hireing extra workers to track down the misfortunates who are trying to get a few quid to pay a utility bill, a lot could be saved it the establishment was streamlined, ml d has 3 pensions a dail salary, if he gets the aras job he will have four pensions, plus a few quid for leaving dail eireann before his tenure was up, the disabled, the widows, cancer victims, the workers on the borderline, etc are bearing the brunt while the snouts keep slurping at the trough.

Sir Oxman

One thing is for certain IMO, there is no leadership being shown by him at all.
He is clearly well able to cut the mustard in his senate employment and his other political & public life not to mention his involvement in the arts and it appears, the odd lecture.
And he wants to be employed as President for 7 years?
2.5k pm disability benefit for 16 years?
Not good enough back in the day and it's not good enough now.

edit: if the 2.5k is a private insurance matter, then it's no-ones business

Nodin

GSF wrote: »

I saw this discussed further down page 1 of the thread already after I posted, and there isnt much to add that hasnt been said before.

Anyway it does seem bizzarre how he can be well enough to be a senator or president but not well enough to lecture in a university. Don't employers generally offer reduced workloads (either temporarily or permanently) before offering to put someone on full time disability payments? That would be the practice in the better private sector companies anyway.

Indeed. It does strike me as odd but its not something I can answer to, however.

Wolfe Tone

How much funding does Trinity get from the government?

GSF

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

How much funding does Trinity get from the government?

http://www.tcd.ie/about/content/pdf/tcd-annual-report-0910.pdf

38% of €195m per page 38 of the TCD annual report. so €74m roughly

drkpower

All a bit puzzling. The article perhaps suggests that TCD instructed him that he 'could not work there again'. Strange choice of language; it seems to suggest that the infective nature of his Hepatitis might be a reason for him being put on disability leave. But the Hepatitis he has (Hep. E, most likely) isnt permanently infective as far as i know, so 16 years disability seems a little over the top.

The Presidential candidate said he was told to take the payment by Trinity after contracting Hepatitis "from water" while in Central Europe, and told he could not work there again.

The alternative is that the Hepatitis has caused him a genuine disability. But that doesnt add up for two reasons:
1. Hep E is almost always self limiting
2. A condition warranting a 16 year disability payment, does not fit easily with his subsequent energetic career as a Senator/arts patron, Presidential election candidate and/or future president.

I was once likely to vote for him, but his campagn is becoming more and more bizarre and the more I get to know him, the less i seem to like him.

anymore

GSF wrote: »

and Trinity is funded by the State of course!

Is this the same Trinity which has been warning of the dire consequences if fees are not-reintroduced ?

cgarrad

Thats alright he is only receiving 11,400 from the state then.

God what was I worrying about

State benefits for the disabled are to be lauded, those who take state benefits for the disabled under questionable guises are not.

Making them president would probably become the new definition of insanity....

flutered

why do the snouts not have to live by the same rules as the masses.

stimpson

flutered wrote: »

why do the snouts not have to live by the same rules as the masses.

All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others.

amacachi

flutered wrote: »

why have the payments continued for so long ?, given that he has found alternate employment why should his bank balance be cushioned like this, is it because he became a politican, if he becomes president would it lot look a bit odd if he has a disability payment each month, one can say that a disibility payment is to keep one going until one can return to gainful employment.

Ivana Bacik is another example of Trinity politicians. She's a barrister, a senator and still has time to be a lecturer. She couldn't get elected at the last election (even running with her party leader) but it's ok, she's back in the Seanad.

Shakeyspears

Checking out on all the Norris campaign forums (his fb page) since this emerged today. And it is astounding the amount of people who are blindly going to vote for him, regardless of how unfit he is for the position.

GSF

Elaine Byrne doing gymnastics defending Norris on Today Fm at the moment. Cant answer why he is well enough to be President but not to work. Basically saying its none of the publics business.

anymore

Shakeyspears wrote: »

Checking out on all the Norris campaign forums (his fb page) since this emerged today. And it is astounding the amount of people who are blindly going to vote for him, regardless of how unfit he is for the position.

Unfortunately it is not that surprising , Bertie Ahern still won the 2007 election despite everything.

Just spotted GSF's post above - clearly many in the media will stick their heads in the sand as far as Norris is concerned. At this stage I wonder why did brian Lenihan (Snr ) have to retire from the Presidential race ?

MadsL

cgarrad wrote: »

Can't be too f*cking disabled if he can rush all over the country in an election campaign...

And you have seen his medical records?

Initial infection can cause mild fever, tiredness, loss of appetite, abdominal discomfort and yellowing of the skin and eyes. Hepatitis symptoms can take some weeks to appear.

After a few weeks the majority of people recover completely. Some people with Hepatitis B and C cannot clear the infection naturally and become carriers.

Although appearing outwardly healthy they are still infectious and may develop problems with liver inflammation or liver cancer later in life.

I had a friend take years to get over Hepatitis.

why do the snouts not have to live by the same rules as the masses.

Ask Trinity HR?

Sick Leave for Staff in this category is calculated in a four year period.
The benefit is 6 months (130 days) full sick pay followed by 6 months
(130 days) half sick pay in any four year period. In order to
calculate these benefits, you must count back four years from the
current date of illness, i.e. if a person falls ill on 1st September 2006,
you must go back to 1st September 2002 and count the number of
days of certified absence, up to the current date of illness.

http://www.tcd.ie/hr/assets/pdf/Sick_Leave_Regulations_Guidelines.pdf

I'm guessing that DN and TCD reached an agreement; this may or may have impacted his pension. €2.5k a month may also have been a better deal for TCD than a redundancy package.

how unfit he is for the position.

How does taking a sickness benefit package disqualify him? I took redundancy and walked into a new job the next week - does that mean I should repay my previous employer?

How is this any different than any TCD employee would be treated in the same circumstances? By all means blame Trinity if you feel they were over generous, but how is DN at fault?

For example, how many teachers positions and pensions are held open for politicians??

stimpson

MadsL wrote: »

I'm guessing that DN and TCD reached an agreement; this may or may have impacted his pension. €2.5k a month may also have been a better deal for TCD than a redundancy package.

He can only be made redundant if his job no longer exists. They would not have been able to hire a replacement.

How does taking a sickness benefit package disqualify him? I took redundancy and walked into a new job the next week - does that mean I should repay my previous employer?

But he wasn't made redundant.

I have illness and disability benefit in work, but it's very clear that I must be unable to work. Once I return to full time work my benefit stops. That is normal practice in the real world.

theparish

So when is this referendum abolishing the senate supposed to be held.Might be time to send Enda a reminder.

WalterMitty

Dont know how he remained on disability untill two years ago when he seemed so energetic and active, gallavanting all over world, walking all over Dublin( I would see him regularly fast walking around dublin city centre with a heavy leather satchel) In Dail for long periods while Sennad was sitting and constantly meeting human rights /voluntary/arts groups, doing media etc etc.

He was easily doing 40 plus hours a week over past decade at least.He either fooled the doctor inspecting him or those paying it didnt really give a sh1te. That hepatitis thing didnt seem to have much impact on him from my perspective but sure doctors never "just tick the boxes" or write sick notes on request.

MadsL

stimpson wrote: »

He can only be made redundant if his job no longer exists. They would not have been able to hire a replacement.
But he wasn't made redundant.

He had tenure, he couldn't be made redundant. I'm speculating as to why Trinity made this arrangement. It could have been to compensate him for losing tenure.

However I think everyone is jsut speculating at this stage, some with extreme prejudice - it is astonishing how many feel that he is somehow morally corrupt for making this arrangement with TCD, very few of whom I would suggest would turn it down. No-one appears to have a 'moral quandry' with accepting a redundancy payment, yet this arrangement is being judged morally dubious.

stimpson wrote: »

I have illness and disability benefit in work, but it's very clear that I must be unable to work. Once I return to full time work my benefit stops. That is normal practice in the real world.

And nothing prevents your employer from continuing to pay you for not coming into work.

drunkmonkey

MadsL wrote: »

And nothing prevents your employer from continuing to pay you for not coming into work.

But surley if your fit to work which he was he should have stopped drawing disability from Trinity.

Shameful for him to be carrying on like this, time for him to quit.

MadsL

A teacher may retire because of ill-health. A Disability Pension is payable to a teacher who fulfils minimum service requirements and whose employer is satisfied that due to infirmity of body and mind the teacher is not capable of performing his/her duties and the infirmity is likely to be permanent. Actual pensionable service may be increased by added years, (maximum of 6 2/3 years), in calculating pension and lump sum.

http://www.tui.ie/SuperannuationPension_Issues/Default.163.html

But surley if your fit to work which he was he should have stopped drawing disability from Trinity.

Shameful for him to be carrying on like this, time for him to quit.

Don't call me Surley. Nothing shameful - Trinity obviously decided to retire him early on the grounds of ill-health and pay a monthly pension/illness payment.

Take it up with Trinity.

stimpson

MadsL wrote: »

He had tenure, he couldn't be made redundant. I'm speculating as to why Trinity made this arrangement. It could have been to compensate him for losing tenure.

However I think everyone is just speculating at this stage, some with extreme prejudice - it is astonishing how many feel that he is somehow morally corrupt for making this arrangement with TCD, very few of whom I would suggest would turn it down. No-one appears to have a 'moral quandry' with accepting a redundancy payment, yet this arrangement is being judged morally dubious.

Right. I'm not speculating - I'm going on what's in the papers. And I'll reiterate - it's not about redundancy - thats a red herring.

Anyway, it wasn't an arrangement, according to TCD he was paid by their insurers. From http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/1005/breaking18.html

“In general, income protection insurers, who operate independently of the college, have rigorous medical assessment processes in place for the initial and continuing admittance of claims to their income protection schemes.”

And nothing prevents your employer from continuing to pay you for not coming into work.

That would be nice. Doesn't happen to the little people though.

I feel sorry for the Norris supporters. At the start of the campaign he seemed to be whiter than white. Now it seems he's just as greedy as the rest.

WalterMitty

drunkmonkey wrote: »

But surley if your fit to work which he was he should have stopped drawing disability from Trinity.

Shameful for him to be carrying on like this, time for him to quit.

Yeah , give up the disability and then get your nice pension at 65 while still earning good money plus expenses in dail. I suppose having glamourous young boyfriends can be expensive though.

FreudianSlippers

WalterMitty wrote: »

Dont know how he remained on disability untill two years ago when he seemed so energetic and active, gallavanting all over world, walking all over Dublin( I would see him regularly fast walking around dublin city centre with a heavy leather satchel) In Dail for long periods while Sennad was sitting and constantly meeting human rights /voluntary/arts groups, doing media etc etc.

He was easily doing 40 plus hours a week over past decade at least.He either fooled the doctor inspecting him or those paying it didnt really give a sh1te. That hepatitis thing didnt seem to have much impact on him from my perspective but sure doctors never "just tick the boxes" or write sick notes on request.

It would depend on the definition of "disability" in his contract of employment. I take it you haven't seen that, so I'll take opinions with the grain of salt they so deserve.

Also, as MadsL pointed out, we don't know if it's a disability pension or not.

OMD

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

It would depend on the definition of "disability" in his contract of employment. I take it you haven't seen that, so I'll take opinions with the grain of salt they so deserve.

Also, as MadsL pointed out, we don't know if it's a disability pension or not.

Do we not? Seemed pretty clear today. Had non a, non b, non c hepatitis. Unable to work for a year. Then trinity insurance kicked in and he was declared medically unfit. Had to undergo regular medical checks to confirm he was unfit for work. What have I missed?


"Mr Norris said the situation continued for about a year and at that point the university told him his situation was “untenable” and advised that he go on permanent disability."

FreudianSlippers

OMD wrote: »

Do we not? Seemed pretty clear today. Had non a, non b, non c hepatitis. Unable to work for a year. Then trinity insurance kicked in and he was declared medically unfit. Had to undergo regular medical checks to confirm he was unfit for work. What have I missed?


"Mr Norris said the situation continued for about a year and at that point the university told him his situation was “untenable” and advised that he go on permanent disability."

So that leaves 2 types of "lettered" hepatitis or toxoplasma and a few other things...

it's possible and likely that TCD came to a deal with Norris to give him disability pension and reallocate his role.

Tipp Man

MadsL wrote: »

A teacher may retire because of ill-health. A Disability Pension is payable to a teacher who fulfils minimum service requirements and whose employer is satisfied that due to infirmity of body and mind the teacher is not capable of performing his/her duties and the infirmity is likely to be permanent. Actual pensionable service may be increased by added years, (maximum of 6 2/3 years), in calculating pension and lump sum.

http://www.tui.ie/SuperannuationPension_Issues/Default.163.html



Don't call me Surley. Nothing shameful - Trinity obviously decided to retire him early on the grounds of ill-health and pay a monthly pension/illness payment.

Take it up with Trinity.

There is nothing wrong with him getting a disability payment if he has an illness which prevents him from working

The problem is that while he was being paid this disability payment because he supposedly can't work, he was also working as a senator. He clearly fails the permanent infirmnity mentioned in your post

Do you not agree that that is completly wrong?

granturismo

Aishae wrote: »

The payments came from trinity not social welfare is what I gathered though?

Contract and permanent lecturers are paid by from state coffers. Research staff are paid from external funding.

If TCDs long term illness scheme is the same as NUI's then he was receiving 75% of his salary and he was reviewed at least every 12 months by a doctor/consultant appointed by the university's insurance company. Depending on TCD's scheme, the illness payment is either paid by the insurance company or TCD. If he was employed pre1992 then I guess it was the insurance company.

If the above is in place then he was continually certified unfit by consultants every year but still able to work elsewhere. Technically not fraud but very close.

OMD

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

So that leaves 2 types of "lettered" hepatitis or toxoplasma and a few other things...

it's possible and likely that TCD came to a deal with Norris to give him disability pension and reallocate his role.

He was unable to do the job of TCD Lecturer due to ill health. Surely the job of president is much more onerous. Is it reasonably believable that since reaching retirement age he has become fitter? After 16 years of being unfit to work as a lecturer he is now fit enough to be president?