single Mother emigrating

mammmmmy

Hi I'm single Mother and i may have to emigrate to find work. My Child's father is a legal guardian of our child and his does exercise the access arrangements put in place. Can the father prevent us from moving abroad?

Cat Melodeon

You'll need proper legal advice on this. If there is a guardianship agreement in place along with shared custody, then the father certainly has a right to try to prevent you from leaving with the children, as he is legally entitled to a say in decisions around education, health care, application for passports etc. Taking a child out of the country without the consent of a court appointed guardian amounts to abduction, so it's best to sort this out amicably and well in advance.

The courts will generally try to do what is on the children's best interests, but what that actually means varies wildly from case to case. If you don't have your own family law solicitor, contact Treoir: http://www.treoir.ie

mammmmmy

Thanks ya i'll get back to the solicitor. He doesn't have shared custody tho - he has access to the child.

Sleepy

Why would you want to deny your child his / her father?

If the law doesn't allow your child's father to block this, it needs to be change tbh.

Noo

Sleepy wrote: »

Why would you want to deny your child his / her father?

If the law doesn't allow your child's father to block this, it needs to be change tbh.

Why would you want to deny your child a chance at a good life just to remain within visiting distance of one of their parents if it means keeping the other parent of sole custody unemployed and miserable struggling to raise the child.

Hopefully the father will see what is best for the child and unselfishly let the mother and child go.

JJJJNR

Why not allow the father full custody of the child ?

planetX

mammmmmy wrote: »

Hi I'm single Mother and i may have to emigrate to find work. My Child's father is a legal guardian of our child and his does exercise the access arrangements put in place. Can the father prevent us from moving abroad?

Short answer is yes.
Most court orders specify this - you can go to jail for leaving the country.

rambutman

Noo wrote: »

Hopefully the father will see what is best for the child and unselfishly let the mother and child go.

Whaaaaaaaaat?


A child deserves to have both parents close and it is in the best interests of the child and its development to be in this situation.

The OP hasn't said whether it is a financial necessity to have to do this. Isn't it a possibility that the reason she want's to emigrate is to further her own career.
Who's selfish in this situation? Some could say that the mother is being because she is chosing her own career over the wellbeing of the child.
Its possible though that it is a financial decision - then other factors need to be taken into account........is this a breadline situation; is the father providing adequate maintenance etc.
What about the childs age? How far into school is the child. Has the father made application for custody before. What about where the mother is moving? Is it English speaking (? not that it would have to be but depending on the age of the child could have an affect) Maybe if the mother want's to emigrate but it is in the best interest of the child to stay in Ireland, then she should be unselfish here and go on her own.

OP I'm not saying any of these scenarios above are fitting - i do not know enough about your situation to comment or judge but I find this quoted remark above very offensive being the father of a child.

Justask

rambutman wrote: »

Whaaaaaaaaat?


A child deserves to have both parents close and it is in the best interests of the child and its development to be in this situation.

The OP hasn't said whether it is a financial necessity to have to do this. Isn't it a possibility that the reason she want's to emigrate is to further her own career.
Who's selfish in this situation? Some could say that the mother is being because she is chosing her own career over the wellbeing of the child.
Its possible though that it is a financial decision - then other factors need to be taken into account........is this a breadline situation; is the father providing adequate maintenance etc.
What about the childs age? How far into school is the child. Has the father made application for custody before. What about where the mother is moving? Is it English speaking (? not that it would have to be but depending on the age of the child could have an affect) Maybe if the mother want's to emigrate but it is in the best interest of the child to stay in Ireland, then she should be unselfish here and go on her own.

OP I'm not saying any of these scenarios above are fitting - i do not know enough about your situation to comment or judge but I find this quoted remark above very offensive being the father of a child.

The impression I get from the post is she is doing it out of necessity ( I my be wrong though) And yes you are dead right if the father was providing adequate support would she need to go down this road?

In an ideal world kids need both mum and dad BUT they need food and shelter more IMO and this is what this mum is doing.

Now if this mum is doing it purely out of carreer driven its a different story. But if its t provide for her child then she is right. As you said we dont know enough details

padr81

OP imho denying a father or mother access to their kids is wrong. totally and completely if he/she does his/her best and wants to be in the kids lives and vice versa.

As long as the kids are healthy clean and fed (something even the poorest of our country can afford) than their emotional needs should come ahead of all others.

Not related to the op, but i've seen tons of single parent cry poverty and move off takin kids to opposite ends of the country. when in reality if they stopped spending €60 a week on fags, €30 on sky, buying their kids tons of unnecessary toys and playstation games they'd be able to manage just fine.

Justask

padr81 wrote: »

Not related to the op, but i've seen tons of single parent cry poverty and move off takin kids to opposite ends of the country. when in reality if they stopped spending €60 a week on fags, €30 on sky, buying their kids tons of unnecessary toys and playstation games they'd be able to manage just fine.

And this is why single parents get a bad name.

beagle001

mammmmmy wrote: »

Hi I'm single Mother and i may have to emigrate to find work. My Child's father is a legal guardian of our child and his does exercise the access arrangements put in place. Can the father prevent us from moving abroad?

Wow this is a turn for the books a pity more single mothers would not take the initiative like you instead of claiming gazillions of benefits under the single mother claim.

Fittle

padr81 wrote: »

Not related to the op, but i've seen tons of single parent cry poverty and move off takin kids to opposite ends of the country. when in reality if they stopped spending €60 a week on fags, €30 on sky, buying their kids tons of unnecessary toys and playstation games they'd be able to manage just fine.

Tonnes? Where are they?

I know a couple of single parents who live on lone parents allowance, none of them smoke, have sky, and their kids don't have playstations. Bit of a generalisation there padr81.

OP, you say your childs fathers sticks to the access arrangements - can I ask what they are?

Fittle

beagle001 wrote: »

the single mother claim.

It's been called 'Lone Parents Allowance' for about 10years now.

Justask

beagle001 wrote: »

Wow this is a turn for the books a pity more single mothers would not take the initiative like you instead of claiming gazillions of benefits under the single mother claim.

Im sorry that this is of topic OP. But there are ALOT of single mothers who work dam bloody hard to raise their kids. Dont paint us all with the same brush like we dont paint all the fathers of the children raised by single mother likewise.

Sleepy

Have you looked into letting your child stay with their Dad full time OP? That way you could emigrate to find work without causing so much upheaval to your child or denying the Dad access? Or is a child only getting to see one of their parents only acceptable when it's their father they lose?

As padr81 pointed out: even on welfare in this country the child would have a roof over their head, clothes on their backs, dinner on the table and access to education. Once they've got that covered, getting to have both their parents comes ahead of lifes luxuries imho.

More rationally: have you discussed this with the father? While I can't say I'm certain you don't have the legal right to kidnap your child in this country, I would hope the discrimination against unmarried fathers doesn't stretch to that extreme and that he does, in fact, have the right to stop you travelling. You never know though: he may be up for emigrating too?

Morag

He doens't have the right to stop you up and moving to another country, he does how ever get a say in if his child moves to another country.

Fittle

Sleepy wrote: »

Have you looked into letting your child stay with their Dad full time OP? That way you could emigrate to find work without causing so much upheaval to your child or denying the Dad access?

You believe that taking the child away from it's mother would not cause much upheaval for the child?

The OP is obviously thinking of emigrating to make a better life for her AND her child - if she had no child, I doubt she would be leaving.

Sleepy

No, I think taking a child away from either of their parents would be a huge upheaval for a child. By framing it in terms of the OP living in a different country to her child I was hoping she might realise how horrible a thing it is to do to a parent.

if she had no child, I doubt she would be leaving.

That's a fairly huge assumption.

Fittle

Sleepy wrote: »

That's a fairly huge assumption.

Why is it a huge assumption?
Why else would the girl be emigrating to find a job, if not to support herself and her child?

rambutman

Fittle wrote: »

Why else would the girl be emigrating to find a job, if not to support herself and her child?

More money
Pursue a chosen career
More work options/greater variety of jobs

Is a modest life here for the child with access to both parents of less value than a more financially successful one overseas with just one parent?
How involved IS the father in the life of the child? The OP says he sticks to access arrangements BUT that could be a couple of hours every week/fortnight.
I THINK probably the less involved he is in the childs life the less right he has really to assert any authority.
There's a lot of factors to consider here and information provided by the OP has been pretty scant to be making judgement calls EITHER WAY

IvySlayer

Fittle wrote: »

You believe that taking the child away from it's mother would not cause much upheaval for the child?

The OP is obviously thinking of emigrating to make a better life for her AND her child - if she had no child, I doubt she would be leaving.

Taking a child away from a mother or a father, is equally damaging. It's shocking how someone can take a child away from their father like this.

Sleepy

The presumption I was referring to was the idea that if the OP didn't have a child she'd be happy to stay in Ireland but it's purely because she has a child to support that she's considering the emigration.

It's a fantasy you've constructed to support an argument you're making, not a justification the OP is giving for wanting to remove her child from her father.

As rambutman pointed out, there are many reasons someone might want to emigrate to find work. They may want the nice things one can afford with a better job, the adventure, the more exciting or interesting job, to avoid the depressing reality of the recession in Ireland, to experience a different culture, to spite their ex?

I'm not saying that any of those things is true in the OP's case. What I'm saying is that unless a child's father is in some way a danger to the child, it's a selfish and cruel thing to move the child to a different country putting them in a position where Daddy becomes someone they see a couple of times a year at best.

I've known a man who lost his house trying to fight his case in a UK court when his ex did this to him and his child. Sure he get's to Skype with her but that's no consolation for the fact he's missed his little girl growing up and she's missed having her Daddy there for her.

Bullseye1

Do you have accommodation and a job lined up? I'm sure it will be a major factor in any decision the father might have.

paperclip2

Fittle wrote: »

It's been called 'Lone Parents Allowance' for about 10years now.

Off Topic

One Parent Family Payment :)
http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Publications/SW82/Pages/1WhatistheOneParentFamilyPayment.aspx

ash23

The father is a legal guardian of the child as stated by the OP.

My Child's father is a legal guardian of our child

Therefore he has the following rights (from citizens info website)

If you are a guardian of a child in Ireland, you have a duty to maintain and properly care for the child and you have a right to make decisions about the child's religious and secular education, health requirements and general welfare.

The father has the right to refuse your request to emigrate.

It's also worth bearing in mind working visas are practically impossible to get for someone with a dependent so you may be putting the ass before the cart.
If the father objects to you taking the child from the country, you can take it to court.

On a personal note, I wouldn't take a child away from an involved parent.

mammmmmy

Just to clear up a few things-
1- I would be doing this for financial reasons
2- ''Why not give the father full custody?''- Are you insane- thats like asking why don't you cut off your arms? -Anyway Father does not want custody- i had a battle to get him to visit the child in the first place- i've been been on my own since day 1 when he deserted us.
3- the child is not due to start school until september hence i would go before it would be detrimental to school and sociability- irrelevant that he may or may not be going to a non/semi - english speaking country- i am multi-lingual- so is my child.
4- I don't smoke, i don't watch t.v (because when my child is asleep i take out my laptop and work) so i don't need sky.The clothes i buy are always for work. I have a few drinks about 4 times in the yr because these are the only opportunities i get to do so due to finance and due to the fact that i'm a damn good mother and i'm damn good at my job which has unfortunately just ended.
6- I am of the opinion that tv/computer games are bad for children therefore i do not waste money on these unnecessary items- I play with my child when my child is playing with toys and or other children- the child's father on the other hand lavishes the child with 'guilt gifts'
5- i spend my money on bills and on ensuring that my child and i eat the best and healthiest food
6- Regardless of what i think of my ex-partner my child has never heard anything but positive things about his father
7- i don't want to deny the father but i don't intend for my child nor i to live in poverty nor to let a good education (which i am still paying for) be wasted- my heart goes out to single parents who struggle with money and who have not had the opportunities i have had in life - i have a means to earn a living and am lucky that i do not have to rely on social welfare help.
8- I get very little maintenance from the father and i can never rely on getting it- father says he cannot afford more- i know that this is not true.
9 - i doubt anyone chooses to be a single parent and its a very tough albeit rewarding life- less of the single parent bashing please. There are plenty of married couples who don not take as good care of their children as lots of single parents. Generalizations are very easy to make and they lack credibility and qualification.
10- 'Sleepy' if the law were to be changed to make it illegal for me to leave the country with my child; in the name of fairness should it also be changed in order to prevent the father moving away from his child?

Thanks for the useful bits of info:) I won't be doing a runner anyway.

mammmmmy

Another thing i should have said is that if i didn't have a child I would be still faced with the same question of emigration. Also i have a huge loan to pay off- part of which is for my education and the other part was incurred by the father (due to my stupidity/ blind love). I would be hoping to return to Ireland in a few years when i would get employment again and when my loans are paid off.

mammmmmy

Also access arrangements are that the father sees the child twice a month- this was the maximum he wanted- Access allows fro him to keep the child overnight- sometimes he does, sometimes he doesn't depending entirely upon his own selfishness. Emigrating is the last resort for me- the child doesn't just loose his father but also his grandparents, aunts, uncles and cousins and friends who have had a greater input in his life than his father therefore this would be much more detrimental to the child. I have not come to this decision lightly- but the pros of emigrating outweigh the cons.

mammmmmy

Good Accomodation and job are lined up.

Bullseye1

I'd say go for it. I'm a strong believer in fathers having an impact in a child's life but if he doesn't really care you have to do what's best for you and your child. Best of luck with the move.

mammmmmy

Thanks Bullseye1- I'd say there'll be let down /upheaval either way- and i suppose if the father puts up a fight well then he has more interest in the child than i thought. What will be will be i guess. Thanks again.

Mr. Presentable

So, ignoring all the hyperbole, to answer the OP,

Yes, the father can, by refusing his child leave to exit the country, prevent you from taking him/her.

mammmmmy

Mr. Presentable wrote: »

So, ignoring all the hyperbole, to answer the OP,

Yes, the father can, by refusing his child leave to exit the country, prevent you from taking him/her.

You're free to judge as you please- - thats irrelevant to me however thanks for your information

Fittle

From your original post OP, I guesed that he had little involvement in his childs life, and that the small amount he did have, was court ordered. The truth is, if he was a father who was a good role model in the childs life and saw alot of the child, you would hardly be considering asking peoples opinions on emigrating - chances are you would be asking him to help you out more.

As it is, if you can get set up abroad before you leave, I say go for it.

mammmmmy

Fittle wrote: »

From your original post OP, I guesed that he had little involvement in his childs life, and that the small amount he did have, was court ordered. The truth is, if he was a father who was a good role model in the childs life and saw alot of the child, you would hardly be considering asking peoples opinions on emigrating - chances are you would be asking him to help you out more.

As it is, if you can get set up abroad before you leave, I say go for it.

Thanks- i guess i just have to make sure its legal before we go.- wouldn't want to kidnap my own child- as some have put it.

Fittle

mammmmmy wrote: »

Thanks- i guess i just have to make sure its legal before we go.- wouldn't want to kidnap my own child- as some have put it.

You will (unfortunately) need his permission to emigrate, just to cover all angles. He may not be very interested in his child just now - but who knows what's around the corner? Often, in my (working) experience, men like your ex show an interest in their biological children when they get a new girlfriend who has a child or have a second child themselves. I want to state clearly that I am not judging or generalising single fathers in any way by that statement - and I certainly don't want this to become a 'single fathers rights' debate. There are many wonderful single fathers out there and I am the first to acknowledge this. In fact, I was in the playground in Merrion Square today (after a visit to the museum - highly recommended!!) and there were nothing BUT committed dads on every bench.

Anyhow OP, I digress - just politely ask his opinion for starters - if he objects, then as you say, he is obviously more interested than you had thought and perhaps if that argument ensues, you can consider asking him to become more involved i.e. would he consider childcare while you work and stay in Ireland etc.

Morag

The site rules state that we can't post encouraging someone to do something illegal.
But sometimes the law is an ass.
Weigh up your options and do what is best for you and the future of your child.
It's a tough situation to be in.

Fittle

Sharrow wrote: »

The site rules state that we can't post encouraging someone to do something illegal.

Ok, well obviously I am not encouraging the OP to do anything illegal - which is why I suggested in my last post, that she speak to him about it first.

But is it illegal in itself if she travels abroad without his permission? Does guardianship mean he has to give permission for all travel - I know it means he has to sign passport applications etc, but does it also mean he has to approve her leaving the country at any time?

planetX

Fittle wrote: »

From your original post OP, I guesed that he had little involvement in his childs life, and that the small amount he did have, was court ordered. The truth is, if he was a father who was a good role model in the childs life and saw alot of the child, you would hardly be considering asking peoples opinions on emigrating - chances are you would be asking him to help you out more.

As it is, if you can get set up abroad before you leave, I say go for it.

Is the access court ordered? If so it will state the penalty for leaving the state with the child - mine does at any rate, 6 months in jail. The only route for the OP is to go to the father and ask for permission, or go back to court to look for permission, which I really doubt will be granted. I'm sorry, but I know a couple of women from the uk who are not allowed to move home with the children.

Sleepy

mammmmmy wrote:

10- 'Sleepy' if the law were to be changed to make it illegal for me to leave the country with my child; in the name of fairness should it also be changed in order to prevent the father moving away from his child?

Well, the law actually says you can't move your child to a different country without his consent so there wouldn't be any need for it to be changed in this regard.

To answer your hypothetical: yes, unless there's a good reason for the father (or non-custodial mother) to be kept away from the child.

mammmmmy

Sleepy wrote: »

Why would you want to deny your child his / her father?

If the law doesn't allow your child's father to block this, it needs to be change tbh.

i was basing my comment on this whereby it seemed that you didn't quite know what the law is. So its easy enough for you to now tell me what the law actually states when someone else has just said it

mammmmmy

planetX wrote: »

Is the access court ordered? If so it will state the penalty for leaving the state with the child - mine does at any rate, 6 months in jail. The only route for the OP is to go to the father and ask for permission, or go back to court to look for permission, which I really doubt will be granted. I'm sorry, but I know a couple of women from the uk who are not allowed to move home with the children.

Thanks for that- I just checked it- nothing as specific as yours in it though. The more info i get the less possible it seems tho. Cheers

Sleepy

Fair enough, I'm not trying to pick an argument. As other posters have alluded to, a parent with guardianship can refuse permission for their child to be taken out of the country but (as with many issues separated fathers face) is that even while the law says one thing there's very little that can be done by the non-custodial parent if the mother decides to break that law.

Sleepy

mammmmmy wrote: »

The more info i get the less possible it seems tho. Cheers

Why? From the way you describe the father's lack of interest in the child he's not likely to refuse you?

mammmmmy

Fittle wrote: »

Ok, well obviously I am not encouraging the OP to do anything illegal - which is why I suggested in my last post, that she speak to him about it first.

But is it illegal in itself if she travels abroad without his permission? Does guardianship mean he has to give permission for all travel - I know it means he has to sign passport applications etc, but does it also mean he has to approve her leaving the country at any time?

I think its obvious you were not encouraging anything illegal- i also think i may have stated a few times that i will not be attempting to pursue anything illegal anyway- thanks for your help.

mammmmmy

Sleepy wrote: »

Why? From the way you describe the father's lack of interest in the child he's not likely to refuse you?

honestly speaking i don't know what his response will be- and a lot of the lack of interest is probably laziness- i don't doubt that he loves the child- it just seems that he wants the child for the fun stuff and when he has nothing else socially going on in life. He refuses to help when the child is sick etc but i think he enjoys the bi-monthly access

Sleepy

I suppose the question you have to ask yourself then is does your child enjoy & benefit from the access?

A friend of mine managed to move to Scotland with her daughter quite amicably with her ex-partner. Part of their agreement involved her paying for an agreed number of his flights over to see their daughter and put him up when he was there and to bring her back to Ireland every second month or something like that.

Obviously, whether that's a goer for you depends on where you intend to move and what your financial position will be once you get there. With Scotland, that's easily enough managed. In Australia or Canada, for example, it could be very difficult.

cynder

A friend of mine moved to Canada 2 years ago with 3 kids the daddy has now left Ireland with no forwarding address, hasn't seen the kids in 1 year. Hasn't phoned them or made any sort of contact, the kids stayed with him for a month over the summer Holstein last year.... No idea how any parent can break of contact with their child.

Morag

Get legal advice on it, I know of two parents who got permission from the courts when they contested the other parent blocking them leaving the country, as they were able to prove that they would have a better live and would have a job and support systems in place they were granted the right to move with the child.

James Jones

mammmmmy wrote: »

Hi I'm single Mother and i may have to emigrate to find work. My Child's father is a legal guardian of our child and his does exercise the access arrangements put in place. Can the father prevent us from moving abroad?

Yes.
According to Section 16 of the Non-Fatal Offences Against the Person Act, 1997

(1) A person to whom this section applies shall be guilty of an offence, who takes, sends or keeps a child under the age of 16 years out of the State or causes a child under that age to be so taken, sent or kept—
(a) in defiance of a court order, or
(b) without the consent of each person who is a parent, or guardian or person to whom custody of the child has been granted by a court unless the consent of a court was obtained.