Winter tyres for a road bike.

coolbeans

I was just thinking back to last year what with all the snow and ice on the roads and what a bugger it was to get in and out of work on my road bike. That got me thinking about winter tyres and if anyone has any experience of them. Are they even available for your typical racer or will there be clearance issues? I've no intention of buying a mountain bike until I can afford a good one so can I get winter tyres for my speed steed and will they make a difference?

joconnell

Just on a bit of a related note - I've just gotten a road bike with mincey 23c tyres, is there any major benefit in terms of grip and anti puncture strength from trying to fit a 25c or 28c tyre? Does this generally work too or is it really heavily wheel dependant? Was going to get the continental gatorskins for both of these aspects!

Lemag

joconnell wrote: »

Just on a bit of a related note - I've just gotten a road bike with mincey 23c tyres, is there any major benefit in terms of grip and anti puncture strength from trying to fit a 25c or 28c tyre? Does this generally work too or is it really heavily wheel dependant? Was going to get the continental gatorskins for both of these aspects!

Your wheels will be able to take 25c or 28c but your frame and brakes may not. Look at your bike as it is with the current tyres on it. Does there appear to be much room for bigger tyres?

I commuted mainly on 25mm tyres last few years, and had no grip on icy days. I checked out ice tyres out there, they weren't available at 28mm (max clearance I had).

You might be able to try out the cable tie to fixie method if you have one. Doesn't work with road brakes though.

http://www.eta.co.uk/2011/01/14/cable-ties-make-cheap-and-effective-bicycle-ice-tyre

joconnell

Lemag wrote: »

Your wheels will be able to take 25c or 28c but your frame and brakes may not. Look at your bike as it is with the current tyres on it. Does there appear to be much room for bigger tyres?

Super - cheers for the pointer. I'd say there should be for the 25's at least, is there any grip or strength benefit though? Would the extra 2 mm make that much of a difference or would I be seeing all of the benefit purely from changing to gatorskins rather than what I assume are pretty slick tyres on there already?

Alanstrainor

I ran with Gatorskins for over a year, and they were great for puncture protection. But my god they are woeful for grip, seriously bad in the wet, worth keeping in mind!

paddie9

I'm riding a Felt road bike and the 25 goes on no problems. There's alot more to grip than the width of the tyre, rubber compound, pressure and thread are also important.
Here is a good article, I use chain reaction on the net and they are usually the cheapest, deliveries are about a week.
http://www.cyclingactive.com/bikesgear/7-of-the-best-premium-winter-tyres

coolbeans

...so, there are no winter tyres for a typical mid-range road bike? Bummer.
I agree re the Gatorskins, I think they're a very overrated tyre to be honest. They last but grip is poor from new. Schwalbe Duranos (formerly Stelvios) are a much better bet as an all round, grippy yet hard wearing tyre.

Lumen

coolbeans wrote: »

...so, there are no winter tyres for a typical mid-range road bike? Bummer.

There are winter tyres, there are just no snow/ice tyres. Even if it were possible to run studs on a 23/25mm tyre without ripping your frame apart, you're never going to get any grip on ice or thick snow at 100psi even with studs. On anything short of sheet ice 25mm tyres are fine.

Winter tyres for road bikes tend to focus on durability/puncture protection. Riding in wet conditions increases the risk of a puncture, as the water lubricates the sharp stuff and helps it get through the rubber; changing a puncture in winter also increases the risk of freezing to death.

The assumption is that you ride slower to compensate for the loss of grip and leave the bike inside when it gets icy (as opposed to frosty, frost is fine).

If you want more grip in the wet have a read of this Tour Test (PDF). The Conti 4 Season comes out well for both wet corner speed and puncture protection. That report is republished by Conti, but Tour is an "independent" German magazine which publishes objective data and I reckon a bit more trustworthy than the UK rags.

cdaly_

Alanstrainor wrote: »

I ran with Gatorskins for over a year, and they were great for puncture protection. But my god they are woeful for grip, seriously bad in the wet, worth keeping in mind!

coolbeans wrote: »

...so, there are no winter tyres for a typical mid-range road bike? Bummer.
I agree re the Gatorskins, I think they're a very overrated tyre to be honest. They last but grip is poor from new. Schwalbe Duranos (formerly Stelvios) are a much better bet as an all round, grippy yet hard wearing tyre.

I've been riding gators for over a year now and have found them grand in the wet...

Ole Rodrigo

coolbeans wrote: »

...Schwalbe Duranos (formerly Stelvios) are a much better bet as an all round, grippy yet hard wearing tyre.

+1 on the Duranos - Ive had a pair on for over 2000 km with no punctures or problems in the wet.

Edit - Durano plus, non racing, used so far in spring/summer/autumn

ednwireland

coolbeans wrote: »

...so, there are no winter tyres for a typical mid-range road bike? Bummer.
I agree re the Gatorskins, I think they're a very overrated tyre to be honest. They last but grip is poor from new. Schwalbe Duranos (formerly Stelvios) are a much better bet as an all round, grippy yet hard wearing tyre.

-1 found duranos no better than anything else you lose sidewalls just as easily as any other race training tyre (with the possible exception of the dd version which i havent tried)

rp

ednwireland wrote: »

-1 found duranos no better than anything else you lose sidewalls just as easily as any other race training tyre (with the possible exception of the dd version which i havent tried)

The plain old Duranos aren't particularly good: the Durano Pluses are.
They are not the most hard wearing, I'm replacing mine after a year (the blue is starting to show thru), but I guess that's the price of a grippy compound.

I was considering Marathon Pluses - the most indestructable tyres out there, but I don't think I could get a 25mm under my mudguards, plus they are wired only.

Khannie

rp wrote: »

I was considering Marathon Pluses - the most indestructable tyres out there, but I don't think I could get a 25mm under my mudguards, plus they are wired only.

I got myself some of these only a week ago. They are simply amazeballs. I have immediately stopped worrying about getting a puncture. Grip in the wet is excellent.

coolbeans

I don't really worry about punctures and it's not a major consideration when buying a tyre. Equally I don't really care about longevity but I do care about grip as I need to be confident knowing the limits of adhesion available to me.

OldPeculier

Khannie wrote: »

I got myself some of these only a week ago. They are simply amazeballs. I have immediately stopped worrying about getting a puncture. Grip in the wet is excellent.

Did you get them online or from a lbs? Where did you find them if you don't mind me asking and are you using them on a road bike?

I've been user gatorskins for 2 years and find them very slippy in the wet, great puncture protection but would like to switch over to something with more grip for winter

Khannie

OldPeculier wrote: »

Did you get them online or from a lbs? Where did you find them if you don't mind me asking and are you using them on a road bike?

I got them from CRC. 700x25's. I am using them on a road bike, yep. A canyon roadlite 6. They set me back around 65 euro for the pair.

edit: They are only the third set of tyres I have ever covered any kind of distance on so I don't have much to reference, but I am absolutely loving them so far. Blown away by the difference on crappy roads versus the 700x23 conti gp 4000s's.

purethick

coolbeans wrote: »

I was just thinking back to last year what with all the snow and ice on the roads

If you are looking to cope with snow and ice - I've heard that Schwalbe Marathon Winter are the ones to go for 26x1.75 or 700x35c. When there isn't any snow and ice you run them at the max pressure and when the snow and ice arrives you drop the pressure. They are expensive though but I guess that's relatively cheap compared to hitting the ground hard!

velo.2010

I have the Conti 4 season now for the grip/protection. Across all the various forums online they get the thumbs up for grip and durability.

Just an update though on the review I summarised from Cycling Plus back in June.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=72801620

The then relatively new Schwalbe Ultremo ZX HD came out on top in terms of all round performance and I would imagine if the above 'Tour' test above was carried out again, then the ZX HD's would trump the Conti GP 4000s.

However looking at the medium term feedback on the Bikeradar/Wiggle forums the HD's are being criticised for their durability after several hundred kms. Those same people still regard it as the best tyre they've used but now regard it more as purely a raceday tyre similar to sentiments expressed about the Michelin Pro 3 in that Cycling Plus review.

I doubt, of course, you'll be buying Ultremo ZX HD's for the winter.;)

blorg

25mm have substantially more grip in my opinon. The best option for a winter road bike tyre or indeed a road tyre for general use outside high summer/racing. No, they do not have the grip of studded tyres or a 26X2.3" montain bike in snow, but they are _noticabley_ better than 700x23 in general Irish conditions.

Khannie

blorg wrote: »

they are _noticabley_ better than 700x23 in general Irish conditions.

I was blown away. Couldn't believe the difference 2mm made.

Sr. Assumpta

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=74247029&postcount=12

or, in other words....

Lumen wrote: »

Directions For Internet-Centric Tyre Purchasing.

- Buy tyre A based on user reviews, consultation of runes, sheeps intestines, or name connotations ("Utremaracer DuraSlick Plus").
- Post on the internet about its awesome puncture protection and wet grip.
- If and when you crash, buy softer tyre B. Post on the internet about how tyre A is slippery in the wet/has exploding sidewalls, but tyre B is much better.
- If and when you puncture, buy harder tyre C. Post on the internet about how tyres A or B were too slippery/too weak/too puncture prone, but tyre C is much better.
- Repeat.

mp31

blorg wrote: »

25mm have substantially more grip in my opinon. The best option for a winter road bike tyre or indeed a road tyre for general use outside high summer/racing. No, they do not have the grip of studded tyres or a 26X2.3" montain bike in snow, but they are _noticabley_ better than 700x23 in general Irish conditions.

Khannie wrote: »

I was blown away. Couldn't believe the difference 2mm made.

Sorry but I'm confused now... what tyres are ye talking about here?

Khannie

700x25's. (I had 700x23's previously but switched to 700x25 marathon plus's)

mp31

Khannie wrote: »

700x25's. (I had 700x23's previously but switched to 700x25 marathon plus's)

Ah OK.... thanks... these are the Schwalbe Marathon plus that you got recently.

Apologies for the newbie questions.. but what's the story with the Schwalbe Ultremo ZX HD - are these better/worse than the Marathon Plus for grip/puncture resistance?

rp

mp31 wrote: »

t what's the story with the Schwalbe Ultremo ZX HD - are these better/worse than the Marathon Plus for grip/puncture resistance?

Marathons are much more puncture resistant, and I would say also gripper (ignore the tread pattern): Ultremo's a designed to be race tyres with a bit more puncture resistance, but nothing like Marathons (which are commute/expedition tyres)
- and much heavier / more rolling resistance.

mp31

rp wrote: »

Marathons are much more puncture resistant, and I would say also gripper (ignore the tread pattern): Ultremo's a designed to be race tyres with a bit more puncture resistance, but nothing like Marathons (which are commute/expedition tyres)
- and much heavier / more rolling resistance.

Ah I see. Thanks for the clarification 'rp'

2 x Schwalbe Marathon 700 x 25 added to my CRC basket :pac:

They even have a reflective tyre stripe - me like that

Now onto the 'base layers' thread to find out the best HH top to add to me basket.

seven stars

Cycleways in Dublin have Marathon Plus in a number of sizes for €30, which sounds like it's slightly cheaper than CRC. I was up there today, and I can't make my mind up between Gatorskins, Armadillos, and Marathon Plus.

I'm leaning towards Marathon Plus because they apparently offer the best puncture resistance, which is a top priority for me. But the lad there didn't seem so keen - he was pushing Gatorskin Hardshells.

I know the Marathon Pluses are heavy by comparison, but do they really slow you down that much?

Pigeon Reaper

I notice them when accelerating but they don't affect the top speed. Certainly worth the extra weight for puncture protection. I only experienced one puncture within 6000km through Dublin and that was due to a broken spoke going in through the rim so hardly a failure of the tyre.

rp

mp31 wrote: »

Ah I see. Thanks for the clarification 'rp'

No prob 'mp31'

mp31 wrote: »

2 x Schwalbe Marathon 700 x 25 added to my CRC basket

What was the total with shipping from CRC? I normally order tyres from my chums at Starbike in the Black Forst, which for these would be €65
(2 x 24.90 + 15 p&p), or from Bike24, €58 (2 x 23.90 + 10 p&p)

mp31

rp wrote: »

No prob 'mp31'

What was the total with shipping from CRC? I normally order tyres from my chums at Starbike in the Black Forst, which for these would be €65
(2 x 24.90 + 15 p&p), or from Bike24, €58 (2 x 23.90 + 10 p&p)

The total came to £57.98 inc shipping but I didn't get them coz 'seven stars' posted that they were 30 yoyos in Cycleways so I'll head down there tomorrow to see if they have them in stock.

mp31

seven stars wrote: »

Cycleways in Dublin have Marathon Plus in a number of sizes for €30, which sounds like it's slightly cheaper than CRC. I was up there today, and I can't make my mind up between Gatorskins, Armadillos, and Marathon Plus.

I'm leaning towards Marathon Plus because they apparently offer the best puncture resistance, which is a top priority for me. But the lad there didn't seem so keen - he was pushing Gatorskin Hardshells.

I know the Marathon Pluses are heavy by comparison, but do they really slow you down that much?

Just picked up two Marathon Plus' from Cycleways - thanks for the heads up seven stars

blorg

rp wrote: »

Marathons are much more puncture resistant, and I would say also gripper (ignore the tread pattern): Ultremo's a designed to be race tyres with a bit more puncture resistance, but nothing like Marathons (which are commute/expedition tyres)
- and much heavier / more rolling resistance.

I would doubt the Marathon Plus are grippier (other than the width.) Good race tyres like Ultremos are very grippy. I have only used Ultremos in 700x23; I have used Maxxis Columbiere in 700x25 (excellent) and also Schwalbe Duranos in 700x28 (also nice, although not designed for the loaded touring I was doing with them.) These tyres are all in a different class to Gatorskins or Armadillos (or indeed Marathons) and ride a lot nicer and are substantially grippier.

The Marathon Plus will have better puncture resistance certainly but I would think less grip, more weight, and a worse ride quality. I haven't used Pluses but I have used the standard Marathon, Marathon Racer, Marathon Supreme and Marathon Dureme all in 35 (all of which are lighter and more flexible than the Plus, albeit with less puncture resistance.)

To be honest I think putting Marathon Plus on a road bike should be illegal. You can't like your bike if you will do that to her. I don't even use them on my tourer preferring the lighter Marathons... I prefer to live with fixing the occasional puncture for the superior ride quality.

Khannie

blorg wrote: »

superior ride quality.

Can you expand a bit on what you mean by ride quality? I am totally in love with my new marathon plus's compared to the 700x23 conti gp's. On the awful roads that are North County Dublin, my bottom and elbows are in comparative bliss. Also, they feel totally bullet proof from a puncture perspective (not sure how to describe this beyond a "feeling"). I was sick to my boobs of fixing punctures. As I said before though, I have little to compare against. I am just very happy with my plus's at the moment.

Lumen

Khannie wrote: »

I am totally in love with my new marathon plus's compared to the 700x23 conti gp's

Ah, but you've also switched from 23s to 25s, so you're not comparing like with like.

Tabnabs

here's a good comparison of winter tyres

http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/studdedtires.asp

The Nokian Hakkapeliitta W240 seem to be the best for "all round" nasty winter stuff.

Manufacturer here
http://www.suomityres.com/index.html

blorg

Khannie wrote: »

Can you expand a bit on what you mean by ride quality? I am totally in love with my new marathon plus's compared to the 700x23 conti gp's. On the awful roads that are North County Dublin, my bottom and elbows are in comparative bliss. Also, they feel totally bullet proof from a puncture perspective (not sure how to describe this beyond a "feeling"). I was sick to my boobs of fixing punctures. As I said before though, I have little to compare against. I am just very happy with my plus's at the moment.

I guess it would be a combination of lower weight with superior rolling resistance and grip. As Lumen says you are comparing 23s to 25s (probably run at a lower pressure?) so not like for like. Any 25 will give you more cushioning for your bottom and elbows (and yes, it is noticable)- you can get the GP4000 in 25 and I would suspect that would be a nicer ride (albeit certainly more puncture-prone.)

If resistance to punctures is your #1 concern Marathon Plus are certainly a good option; they are probably the most puncture resistant tyre out there. But it comes at the expense of (extreme) weight and worse ride quality. For me I'll take the occasional puncture to save weight and improve grip and rolling resistance.

By extreme weight, I mean it, in 700x25 they are 580g per tyre compared to 215g for my 700x25 Maxxis Columbieres (they are a light 700x25, as durable as race tyres like GP4000s or Ultremos, not as durable as a Marathon.) That is a whopping 730g of rotating weight you are adding to your road bike, which is an immediate and obviously noticable difference (many will spend thousands of euro to get less of a weight saving on their wheels!)

Schwalbe make this distinction themselves- comparing their touring tyres, the Marathon Racer has the best speed and grip, with the Plus having the best puncture protection and durability. (I presume these charts are designed for comparison among the same tyre types so it wouldn't make sense to include the race tyres here.)

Marathon Racer (rode these to Tehran/Mumbai)


Marathon Dureme/Supreme (my current touring tyres)



Marathon Plus

smacl

blorg wrote: »

I would doubt the Marathon Plus are grippier (other than the width.) Good race tyres like Ultremos are very grippy. I have only used Ultremos in 700x23; I have used Maxxis Columbiere in 700x25 (excellent) and also Schwalbe Duranos in 700x28 (also nice, although not designed for the loaded touring I was doing with them.) These tyres are all in a different class to Gatorskins or Armadillos (or indeed Marathons) and ride a lot nicer and are substantially grippier.

Out of interest, do you find a big difference in grip and comfort between 25s and 28s? Reason I ask is that I'm getting a first road bike, after a year on a hybrid with 32mm tyres (Marathon supremes) and am considering the same tyre in either 28 or 25 for the road bike. I currently ride a fair amount of crappy roads, bohereens and occasional unpaved fire roads, and would like to keep this as an option.

blorg

smacl wrote: »

Out of interest, do you find a big difference in grip and comfort between 25s and 28s? Reason I ask is that I'm getting a first road bike, after a year on a hybrid with 32mm tyres (Marathon supremes) and am considering the same tyre in either 28 or 25 for the road bike. I currently ride a fair amount of crappy roads, bohereens and occasional unpaved fire roads, and would like to keep this as an option.

Comfort will always increase with an increase in the width (and thus air volume.) Grip will usually increase, but this depends on the tyre you are replacing. If it is the same tyre in a bigger size, it should always increase, yes. If a different tyre it is impossible to say.

If you are getting a road bike and won't be carrying a load, use road tyres. The Supreme is a good touring tyre but on a road bike an Ultremo (from Schwalbe) or something similar would be a nicer ride. It wouldn't be as durable with a load (I squared out my 700x28 Durano over 3,200km loaded touring) but you won't be carrying a load.

Road tyres are fine on crappy roads and bohereens. Basically as long as there is tarmac in whatever state of repair. You can even manage the occasional fire road on them, but I'd keep that occasional, they are designed at the end of the day to optimise tarmac riding where presumably you will be spending most of your time.

For general road use (not racing) on a road bike I think a good slick 700x25c 'race' tyre is optimal. It is still fast but more comfortable than a 700x23c on bad roads. I would not put a Marathon Supreme on a road bike.

Khannie

Thanks for that. Interesting stuff. One final question:

The same tyre in 700x23 and 700x25: You suggested the 700x23 be more puncture resistant. Why is that?

blorg

Khannie wrote: »

Thanks for that. Interesting stuff. One final question:

The same tyre in 700x23 and 700x25: You suggested the 700x23 be more puncture resistant. Why is that?

If I did I didn't mean to! The 700x25c should be more puncture resistant as it would be less susceptible to pinch flats. Although if you always inflate your tyres to correct pressure this should not be an issue and you are unlikely to see any difference between the two sizes.

Kaisr Sose

I have used Hutchinson Equinox 700 x 23 all year. No probs and no punctures (almost 10,000km). Maybe not the fastest but seriously long life and resistant. I have no probs in the wet in an emergency what tyre would not slide if you were travelling at or clost to 30kph or more?

Beasty

blorg wrote: »

If I did I didn't mean to! The 700x25c should be more puncture resistant as it would be less susceptible to pinch flats. Although if you always inflate your tyres to correct pressure this should not be an issue and you are unlikely to see any difference between the two sizes.

Intuitively I would have thought the 25s would be slightly more prone to punctures are they have a wider surface in contact with the road. I would have guessed 9-10% more surface contact (at the same pressure) = 9-10% more punctures?

blorg

Beasty wrote: »

Intuitively I would have thought the 25s would be slightly more prone to punctures are they have a wider surface in contact with the road. I would have guessed 9-10% more surface contact (at the same pressure) = 9-10% more punctures?

I had considered that but you would also want to consider that wider tyres run at lower pressures have more 'give' and so are probably more likely to deflect and less likely to puncture as a result- imagine sticking a thumb tack into a balloon inflated at high pressure vs low pressure. In real world terms I do think the fewer pinch flat issue is the most important one.

Wishbone Ash

I got rid of the Gatorskins this evening. Absolute disaster in the wet - I had a few close shaves in the rain over the last weekend. Puncture wise they were great for the first 3000kms but I got 3 in the past week.

I fitted a pair of Panaracer Ribmos 700x25 (€75 pair) but haven't gone out on them yet, Hopefully they'll make a difference.

Wishbone Ash

blorg wrote: »

wider tyres run at lower pressures have more 'give' and so are probably more likely to deflect and less likely to puncture as a result

I'd say the opposite is true. A tyre at very high pressure will deflect sharp stones, glass etc. whereas a tyre at lower pressure has more 'give' and will allow entry of sharp objects.

seven stars

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

I got rid of the Gatorskins this evening. Absolute disaster in the wet - I had a few close shaves in the rain over the last weekend. Puncture wise they were great for the first 3000kms but I got 3 in the past week.

I fitted a pair of Panaracer Ribmos 700x25 (€75 pair) but haven't gone out on them yet, Hopefully they'll make a difference.

Funny that - I just bought my first pair of gatorskins yesterday: gatorskin ultra for the fron and hardshell for the back. Let us know how you get on with the Panaracers. I eventually went with the gatorskins because of the advice I've got on the subject from people I know, but I'm still not 100% comfortable with the decision. I suffer from (extreme) cold hands syndrome, so fixing a puncture in the depths of winter probably won't be an option. Maybe should've gone for the Marathon Pluses, but there you go.

Khannie

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

I'd say the opposite is true. A tyre at very high pressure will deflect sharp stones, glass etc. whereas a tyre at lower pressure has more 'give' and will allow entry of sharp objects.

This has not been my experience. Sometimes, sure, they'd flick small stones away at speed. Other times the stone or glass just went right in. Pee'd me off big time.

blorg

From real life anecdotal experience I think I get slightly less punctures on the slightly wider tyres but that is entirely down to less pinch flats. I don't think there is a big difference otherwise.

cython

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

I'd say the opposite is true. A tyre at very high pressure will deflect sharp stones, glass etc. whereas a tyre at lower pressure has more 'give' and will allow entry of sharp objects.

I think he means a deflection in the shape/surface of the tyre around the shape of the sharp object and just roll over it, rather than actually deflecting the debris. Basically absorbing/rolling over it, rather than trying to drive itself as a hard surface onto the sharp, which would cause the hole.

Lumen

I'm reasonably certain that wider tyres pick up more penetration punctures due to a combination of the greater swept area of road and lower pressures being less repulsive, and this is backed up by the experience of changing punctures for family members who insist on using MTBs for cycling on tarmac.

Pinch flats are a symptom of inadequate tyre pressure.