Minimum area for self sufficiency

slowburner

I heard of a figure of two acres for a family of three but this couldn't allow for any form energy production - could it?. Does a theoretical area of two acres (presumably all of it rich and productive) include land for animal production?
Two acres just sounds too small to me for complete self sufficiency. Am I wrong?

Boardnashea

I suppose it really depends on the quality of the soil but 2 acrea would seem small to me. Food could be provided from that area without too much bother but heat and clothes would need more space.

maddragon

I presume you have bought the John Seymour book, "the complete guide to self sufficiency". If not do it now.

arctictree

maddragon wrote: »

I presume you have bought the John Seymour book, "the complete guide to self sufficiency". If not do it now.

Yes, the section on one acre is very interesting. But to be honest, i'm not sure how he squeezes all of that on one acre!



And that really looks like two acres to me...

Tabnabs

I've been told that 6 acres is the optimum and will allow for sloppy practise by a newcomer and/or areas of poor utilisation. It sounded like a reasonable quantity when all things are considered.

maddragon

Yes, if you are allowing for area to grow willow or similar I think 5 acres for a family of 4 is required.

jinghong

planning my setup now, I hope to get by on less then 5 acreas, but intend to do some fish farming, and do some trading

bbam

maddragon wrote: »

I presume you have bought the John Seymour book, "the complete guide to self sufficiency". If not do it now.

this one ??

Ophiopogon

I've never really understood John Seymor's one acre plan, I think in theory and if you had planned everything than maybe it would suffice. Also if you use some premaculture practices than you would safe on space.

I think up to two acre for two people (maybe one child) but I think the best would be 5 for a family as it does allow for mistakes but also so you could have a small recreational garden as well, which I think is important.

henryporter

That's six acres to be self-sufficient, but how many more acres needed to pay the neverending wave of taxes being imposed to save this country from the mess the banks created In all seriousness though John Seymours book is a good start - I believe there's still a self sufficiency school at his farm in Wexford

Ophiopogon

henryporter wrote: »

That's six acres to be self-sufficient, but how many more acres needed to pay the neverending wave of taxes being imposed to save this country from the mess the banks created In all seriousness though John Seymours book is a good start - I believe there's still a self sufficiency school at his farm in Wexford

Slightly off topic but I was wondering about this. If you were to achive self sufficiency and only made enough money from say selling produce to cover rainy day type events than would you not be exempt from certein taxes. Surely you could get it means tested?

arctictree

Ophiopogon wrote: »

Slightly off topic but I was wondering about this. If you were to achive self sufficiency and only made enough money from say selling produce to cover rainy day type events than would you not be exempt from certein taxes. Surely you could get it means tested?

Any money you make would be taxable but I'm sure it would not be enough to get you over your tax credits.

In my opinion, widespread self sufficiency would be a nightmare for the state as they cannot tax it. Unless they want payment in spuds...!

Ophiopogon

I don't think wide spread self sufficiency would ever be on the cards.

For me personal its my goal but I've not decided what I think about taxes at that time.

I would have always belived that you pay tax for the good of the country and not just to benefit what I only use. And I don't think that if I choose to live off grid I should not have to pay any tax.

But at the same time, as a lot of people are thinking, its hard to stomach paying out for a crisis that I had nothing to do with it.

boglet

Ophiopogon wrote: »

I don't think wide spread self sufficiency would ever be on the cards.

For me personal its my goal but I've not decided what I think about taxes at that time.

I would have always belived that you pay tax for the good of the country and not just to benefit what I only use. And I don't think that if I choose to live off grid I should not have to pay any tax.

But at the same time, as a lot of people are thinking, its hard to stomach paying out for a crisis that I had nothing to do with it.

what you call off the grid...would you never use roads, hospitals,educational facilities, police, library, etc services? may be reduced taxes for self sufficient peeps?

A good place to see how to grow alot in a very little space is in african countries, eg, key hole farming. there are alot of very good ideas to grow veg etc with little space and water.

Corsendonk

Ophiopogon wrote: »

I've never really understood John Seymor's one acre plan, I think in theory and if you had planned everything than maybe it would suffice. Also if you use some premaculture practices than you would safe on space.

I think up to two acre for two people (maybe one child) but I think the best would be 5 for a family as it does allow for mistakes but also so you could have a small recreational garden as well, which I think is important.

Down to the quality of the land your on and local climate, one acre leaves it pretty tight for rotation and a poor harvest could really set you back so 5-6 acre site sounds more feasible. If your in boggy poor soil you will need more land to allow for slower growth. Where I am is basically beach so the soil heats up quickly in spring but I struggle on retaining enough organic matter and so water holding capacity in the soil. So no real set guideline on what acreage you should have, you have to look at your own local growing conditions.

Ophiopogon

boglet wrote: »

what you call off the grid...would you never use roads, hospitals,educational facilities, police, library, etc services? may be reduced taxes for self sufficient peeps?

A good place to see how to grow alot in a very little space is in african countries, eg, key hole farming. there are alot of very good ideas to grow veg etc with little space and water.

Thats is why I said just because I would choose to live off grid it does not mean I should not pay any tax.

Corsendonk wrote: »

Down to the quality of the land your on and local climate, one acre leaves it pretty tight for rotation and a poor harvest could really set you back so 5-6 acre site sounds more feasible. If your in boggy poor soil you will need more land to allow for slower growth. Where I am is basically beach so the soil heats up quickly in spring but I struggle on retaining enough organic matter and so water holding capacity in the soil. So no real set guideline on what acreage you should have, you have to look at your own local growing conditions.

Also that is why in I said in theory one acre could work.

William Powell

I used to grow all the veg for a couple of families on a 1/4 acre, had another 1/4 down to bush fruit, it was good well drained ground on a south facing slope, but very very poor soil (Bagshot sand in the UK) which needed no end of manure, if you stick to horticulture you can get a lot out of an acre but as soon as you put a house and outbuildings on the land, have stock, want somewhere to grow firewood and have some shelter belts I'd be looking for 5 acres minimum and that would be tight as I reckon you need about 4 acres to be self suficient in firewood and timber products like pea, sticks bean poles, brushes (yeh, used to make witches brooms for sweeping), wreaths (make use of the holly at Christmas), tool handles, fence posts, rails etc.

slowburner

boglet wrote: »

what you call off the grid...would you never use roads, hospitals,educational facilities, police, library, etc services? may be reduced taxes for self sufficient peeps?

A good place to see how to grow alot in a very little space is in african countries, eg, key hole farming. there are alot of very good ideas to grow veg etc with little space and water.

I hear what you are saying Boglet - but there's an obvious difference, while we have no shortage of rainfall (well not always) in Ireland, we don't get the same quantity of sunlight and heat - that is a decidedly limiting factor in how much we can produce - no?

Corsendonk

slowburner wrote: »

I hear what you are saying Boglet - but there's an obvious difference, while we have no shortage of rainfall (well not always) in Ireland, we don't get the same quantity of sunlight and heat - that is a decidedly limiting factor in how much we can produce - no?

Yes, I know some white Zimbabwean farmers that moved here and they still can't get over the amount of rain here and problems with reduced light. You can extend the growing season but it requires a huge energy input from fossil fuels.

William Powell

Corsendonk wrote: »

Yes, I know some white Zimbabwean farmers that moved here and they still can't get over the amount of rain here and problems with reduced light. You can extend the growing season but it requires a huge energy input from fossil fuels.

I still after 15 years can't get over the difference in the length of growing season between here and the UK, I find the growing season here to be almost 2 weeks shorter than the where I was in the UK.

jinghong

you cannot compare apples with oranges. Every ecosystem is different. In Zimbabwe, they grow tobacco, cotton, coffee, fruits etc. Ireland is too wet for many crops. We dont get abnormally high levels of precipitation (10% of west coast South island New Zealand for instance), but what we do get doesn't evaporate so much, due to the mild temperatures. Wood and grass do better here than any other country in europe, including the UK. We should stick with our strong points.

If it's any consolation, we're one of the only countries in the world that hasn't damaged our soil substantially, because of the form of permaculture we practice in the main (we use animals as a medium to convert grass into food, thereby avoiding the annual ploughing of the ground, reduced depletion of nutrients, natural nitrogen fixing, easier fertilization, among other benefits)

fodda

It is almost impossible to become self sufficient as you still need cash and on 5 acres you can forget it.

Throw the book away and get a calculator out and see what self sufficiency really means.

You will still need cash for electricity, health insurance, home insurance, vehicle expenses before any money for anything else.

A rough estimate on those things mentioned would be a minimum of 7000.00 for just 2 people and you think you can pull that from 5 acres and still provide all the food and fuel you can grow?:)

slowburner

fodda wrote: »

It is almost impossible to become self sufficient as you still need cash and on 5 acres you can forget it.

Throw the book away and get a calculator out and see what self sufficiency really means.

You will still need cash for electricity, health insurance, home insurance, vehicle expenses before any money for anything else.

A rough estimate on those things mentioned would be a minimum of 7000.00 for just 2 people and you think you can pull that from 5 acres and still provide all the food and fuel you can grow?:)

The term 'self sufficiency' probably means different things to different people.

fodda

slowburner wrote: »

The term 'self sufficiency' probably means different things to different people.

Agreed but when they get "That Book" out......someone needs to explain a few things.

You should be try to be as self sufficient as possible in whatever land you have whether it's producing your own food or growing your own fuel and you could grow a hell of a lot of your own food in even a quarter of an acre.:)

slowburner

fodda wrote: »

Agreed but when they get "That Book" out......someone needs to explain a few things.

You should be try to be as self sufficient as possible in whatever land you have whether it's producing your own food or growing your own fuel and you could grow a hell of a lot of your own food in even a quarter of an acre.:)

Absolutely. It is astonishing how much food anyone can produce with even the tiniest bit of ground - if they put the effort in. Fuel though, needs space.

It would be interesting to have a think or discussion here on the relative merits of fruit and vegetables versus meat production and the implications for the usage of space and resources.

William Powell

slowburner wrote: »

Absolutely. It is astonishing how much food anyone can produce with even the tiniest bit of ground - if they put the effort in. Fuel though, needs space.

It would be interesting to have a think or discussion here on the relative merits of fruit and vegetables versus meat production and the implications for the usage of space and resources.

Orchard to me equals space for chickens and if you have pigs an easy way of using up the windfalls (depending on the size of the orchard). But I'm not thinking of a modern setup with everything on dwarfing rootstock I'm thinking of semi dwarfing rootstocks or more vigorous ones so at least all the orchard trees are on a single stem to allow some space at ground level. But large trees need space and so the acreage grows....

As I think I said before, small holdings have to make the maximum use of what they have got, and if say making wreathes from holly at Christmas and selling them down the local market is what it takes then thats what you have to do. A small holding doesn't and probably can't be self sufficient in everything, so you have to grow/do what you can best and sell stuff to buy what you can't grow or make yourslef.

tommy2bad

A small holding doesn't and probably can't be self sufficient in everything, so you have to grow/do what you can best and sell stuff to buy what you can't grow or make yourslef.

Or barter, self sufficiency is impossible, several holdings operating as a group with different specializations would work. Oh wait thats what we call society. I guess I'm not the first to come up with the idea.

slowburner

tommy2bad wrote: »

Or barter, self sufficiency is impossible, several holdings operating as a group with different specializations would work. Oh wait thats what we call society. I guess I'm not the first to come up with the idea.

No that's a community - society has senior bond holders, buys and sells bad debt, makes collossal gambling errors and expects the remainder of society to pay their debts.
Barter with a bank: now there's an idea.

slowburner

Here's a link to a useful website (can we have a sticky for useful links, please?:))
http://www.downsizer.net

Eleganza

http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2011-07-31/