House we're renting has been sold

slowmoe

Have only been told that we will be let know when we have to leave by. Signed a new 1 year lease about 3 months ago. What are our rights? Thanks!

amdublin

Had you known it was up for sale?

Pandora2

Call the PRTB asap...they will advise you of your rights as a sitting tenant.

Paulw

slowmoe wrote: »

Signed a new 1 year lease about 3 months ago. What are our rights? Thanks!

You have a 1 year lease. You should contact Threshold as soon as you can, to find your exact rights, but I believe that they must give you proper notice to leave (which should be in your lease contract).

vicwatson

Section 34 or 35 of the Landlord and Tenant act 2004 states that the landlord can break the lease if they are selling the property BUT you are entitled to proper notice regardless.

slowmoe

what would the notice period be? the lease has been in same flatmates name for 5 years. did not know it was for sale

vicwatson

16 weeks or 112 days for over 4 years (since Sept 2008)

More info here -

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/if_your_landlord_wants_you_to_leave.html

Section 34 here (page 33) is what you need -

http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/bills28/acts/2004/a2704.pdf

sophia25

Section 34 of RTA allows notice to be given to Part 4 tenants in the event of sale of property. However, this is not applicable during a lease, this is the only reason a tenant should consider signing a lease once they have acquired Part 4 rights. Section 58 of RTA prohibits notice to be given during a fixed term contract (lease) unless there is a specific break clause in the lease. If there is no break clause in the lease the landlord is entitled to sell property but he has two options, sell property with a sitting tenant or buy out the lease.

quozl

vicwatson wrote: »

Section 34 or 35 of the Landlord and Tenant act 2004 states that the landlord can break the lease if they are selling the property BUT you are entitled to proper notice regardless.

You're confusing a fixed term and a part 4 lease, so that's incorrect. Unless the fixed term has a break clause (unlikely), the leaseholder is entitled to stay until their fixed term lease expires.

Proper explanation here - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056099064

Pandora2

Irrespective of your knowledge of the property being sold...I would suspect that you have not formally been given "notice" as yet.

When you are informed in writing, then you are "On Notice" .........Clock isn't ticking just yet imo;) Check it out with PRTB.

All the best:)

RentDayBlues

If you have a signed lease you are entitled to stay until the end of the lease - that's the benefit

They cant just give you notice

Mister Dread

You could offer to leave if the landlord compensates you.

He can sell with a sitting tenant but it's unlikely. You have no obligation to facilitate viewings and make this clear to the landlord.

RentDayBlues

RentDayBlues wrote: »

If you have a signed lease you are entitled to stay until the end of the lease - that's the benefit

They cant just give you notice

Incorrect, they can give you notice if they are selling it or want to move back in themselves.

Mister Dread wrote: »

You could offer to leave if the landlord compensates you.

He can sell with a sitting tenant but it's unlikely. You have no obligation to facilitate viewings and make this clear to the landlord.

Well it seems the property has been sold already according to the OP.

Mister Dread

Seriously, people should be banned for mixing up part fours and fixed term leases. This forum is ruined with bad advice. The op can stay till the end of the lease.

subway

It's a fixed term lease. Unless theres a break clause they are both in it for he 12 months

edanto

I would worry more about your options than your rights.

You might be better off if you work with your landlord. It's got to be hard enough to sell a house in this market and it would be a bit mean to stand in the way of it.

You could always tell your landlord that you don't want to leave at all, and it will be a big inconvenience. Get them to give you a rent-free period (6-8weeks) to compensate.

In the scheme of things, 2 months rent isn't a huge amount of money compared to the sale value and they might be happy to give up the amount of rent in return for a certain date by which you will vacate.

Victor

RoverJames wrote: »

Incorrect, they can give you notice if they are selling it or want to move back in themselves.

I don't think so, that only applies to a Part 4 lease.

slowmoe

slowmoe wrote: »

Have only been told that we will be let know when we have to leave by. Signed a new 1 year lease about 3 months ago. What are our rights? Thanks!

Is there not a mention in your lease about a months notice?
Also were you in the house prior to signing this 12 month lease, ie did you have a lease on it before. How long have you been in the house?

Mister Dread wrote: »

Seriously, people should be banned for mixing up part fours and fixed term leases. This forum is ruined with bad advice. The op can stay till the end of the lease.

Banned? :rolleyes:
You'd be banned yourself I reckon, stay till the end of the lease, nope, not if they are selling the property.

Mister Dread

Why post if you don't know what you are talking about?

vicwatson

You're confusing a fixed term and a part 4 lease, so that's incorrect. Unless the fixed term has a break clause (unlikely), the leaseholder is entitled to stay until their fixed term lease expires.

Surely it is a part 4 tenancy as they are there over 4 years, and there are certain circumstances in which the property owner can break the lease as I've already described so....I am right and the information I gave is correct.

sophia25

vicwatson wrote: »

Surely it is a part 4 tenancy as they are there over 4 years, and there are certain circumstances in which the property owner can break the lease as I've already described so....I am right and the information I gave is correct.

I have said this already but section 34 of RTA is not applicable during a fixed term lease. Under section 58 of the Residential Tenancies Act a fixed term can not be broken if there is no break clause.

beeno67

vicwatson wrote: »

Surely it is a part 4 tenancy as they are there over 4 years, and there are certain circumstances in which the property owner can break the lease as I've already described so....I am right and the information I gave is correct.

No I am afraid you are wrong

Victor

sophia25 wrote: »

I have said this already but section 34 of RTA is not applicable during a fixed term lease. Under section 58 of the Residential Tenancies Act a fixed term can not be broken if there is no break clause.

It can be broken - but only with the agreement of both/all parties.

sophia25

Victor wrote: »

It can be broken - but only with the agreement of both/all parties.

Well now I thought it was a given that we all knew an agreement could be broken if all parties agreed to do so :rolleyes:

slowmoe

There are 3 tenants in the house, the lease has been in one tenants name for 5 years. Its a new contract every year when the old one runs out. We checked with the letting agent who got in a huff because he hadn't been told it was for sale and started giving out that he should have been the one to sell it :rolleyes:

Its not under offer or sale agreed, its actually sold. The landlord(who lives abroad) told us that he doesn't own the property anymore and the new owners agents will be in touch to facilitate our vacating the property.

Have rang threshold but they were a bit confused about it as well. They said we should be given 4 months notice but they're not sure as the landlord doesn't own it now??? :eek: They seemed to be more concerned about the landlord or ea letting themselves into property for valuations and assumed viewings without permission than anything else.

Ptrb said they'd ring us back.....still waiting...

We've had no contact from anyone else at this point and are just hoping our stuff hasn't been thrown out in the street every evening. We pay our rent for the next month on the last day of each month so we've already paid for this whole month too.


MESS!!!!!!!!!

subway

how was the house sold without anyone noticing EA, viewers, for sale sign, listings etc?

slowmoe

We don't stay camped in the house 24/7, we work and we have lives. There was no for sale sign. The landlord was back in Ireland about 6-8 weeks ago and said he was coming over just to ensure everything was ok but we told him no because none of us could be there. We guess now that they took the house photos etc then

Mister Dread

The new owners have a serious problem on their hands.

There are issues with paying rent in the future. Also in the past as the landlord was non resident.

slowmoe

And our deposit

The landlord is irish but living in spain now. We've been in touch with our letting agent and he is no help, says he's trying to contact the landlord but hasn't een able to. We've been trying to contact him ourselves but phone is off. We found the listing on the internet and rang the ea and explained ourselves but said he couldn't comment on it with us under data protection as we are not his clients. But the advetisement makes no mention of existing tenants.

We had assumed from phone call no 1 that the house was sale agreed and that this would be sorted out. As its actually sold i think we will have to keep after ptrb/threshold and possibly seek legal advice.

Thanks to everyone for all the help anyway!

subway

slowmoe wrote: »

We don't stay camped in the house 24/7, we work and we have lives. There was no for sale sign. The landlord was back in Ireland about 6-8 weeks ago and said he was coming over just to ensure everything was ok but we told him no because none of us could be there. We guess now that they took the house photos etc then

thats ****ed up, sounds like you will be plenty rich,
its the new owners who will be evicting you as they will have bought the house with tenants in place. they are your new landlord etc.

make sure you stop paying the old landlord and start paying the new one as you will never get money back from him.

make sure prtb / threshold are on your side for everything you do. if they illegally evict you, screw / sue em. should be about 15k per tenant going by previous judgements.
landlord will want to cop the **** on (the new on that is)

subway

slowmoe wrote: »

The landlord is irish but living in spain now. We've been in touch with our letting agent and he is no help, says he's trying to contact the landlord but hasn't een able to. !

he's not your landlord anymore, he should have included secuirty deposit as part of sale to the new landlord.
if he didnt, they can sue him, the new owners owe you the deposit afaik.

if the new owners are so clueless they may not have engaged a solicitor and dont realise how dodgy the situation they are in is.
suggest you cross post this in thepropertypin.com (property a&e subforum)

Mister Dread

I'd relax and don't lose any sleep over it. This will definitely work out in your favour. I
You should contact the new owners soon and explain to them the lay of the land. They might just give you all a grand each to leave sooner.

Pandora2

Vis a vis the deposit, if said 'landlord' has not made legal provision for it within the sale (and inmho the whole thing stinks to high Heaven!! Is this a cash trasaction, no mortgages, no survey's, no viewings FFS) could you sue the agent in the Small Claims Court??

They as Agents in a tight market did not notice he was selling the house literally from under you??.......And, they seem to have been the broker of your lease? Might you have a claim on them?? Just a thought:o

Apologise if I've been watching too much Judge Judy :o

Hope all this works out for you OP, it's bloody awful for you, but I agree with Mister Dread......you are in a strong position here and it would take ages and cost €€€ to have you evicted/the new owners wld be better advised to play ball with you....you have right's in law threaten to use them, if necessary....Negotiate first though;)

Milk & Honey

the key issue here is what is meant by the word sold. Selling a house is a two stage process. First there is the signing of contracts and payment of deposit nd a closing generally a few weeks later when the balance of the money is paid and possession handed over. What may have happened is that contracts have been exchanged but the closing has not happened. Quite often the house is described as being sold even though the sale is not complete. In that situation the new purchasers normally will not take over with tenants in situ.
It is impossible to say what the position is this situation from the information given.
The old landlord may be planning an illegal eviction before he hands over. You will not get damages from him because he will be in Spain.
the new owners may be willing to leave tenants in place.
On the other hand the new owners may want vacant possession.

the_syco

Milk & Honey wrote: »

the new owners may be willing to leave tenants in place.
On the other hand the new owners may want vacant possession.

OP, this is what matters now; if the house was bought to let, or bought bought to be lived in.

BostonB

Why would the new owners owe the deposit. They didn't take it, they don't have a contract with the tenant? The problem will be getting it off the original LL. The tenant has a lease, that legally can't be broken without their agreement. So the new owners can't move in for a year.

Pretty bad of the LL to create such a mess of something so simple.

subway

Boston the new owners are now the landlord.
The contract moves with the house.
The new owner needs to fulfil the terms of the contract. Solicitors for sale should advise the responsibilities.

BostonB

The contract moves with the house.

Whats the legal background to that?

subway

question 5:
http://www.threshold.ie/page.asp?menu=74&page=239

more info etc

http://www.irishlandlord.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1736
http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=26341
http://www.ipoa.ie/userfiles/File/2007%20September%20IPOA%20Newsletter.pdf

BostonB

I'm not a fan of relying on threshold or forums as they are not always accurate.

I can understand the tenant tenancy continues, there's nothing AFAIK about the deposit, from what I can see.

subway

not sure what else i can do then as unfortunately, i'm not spending money hiring a solicitor to research case law and prove it to you

i would take threshold as correct unless shown otherwise. they say the new owner must fulfil the terms of the lease. the only place ive seen this happen before is at the allsop auctions. almost all other situations people are advised strongly againts buying with tenants in situ.

the OP can probably give us overall clarity as he is in the position. if you want me to take your opinion seriously i suggest you provide something to the contrary

ill also assume you didnt actually review anything i posted, just ignored the links since th last one is not from a forum, here is the quote for you

BE CAREFUL WHEN SELLING
Never sign a contract to sell with vacant possession until after the tenants have left the property. Obviously serve the correct notice of terminations on tenants and organise a buyer, but do not sign the contract until you are sure that the tenants have left. Otherwise if they don’t go and it takes you two or more years to get vacant possession by going through the Board, you can be penalised by the purchaser, and have to pay a monetary fine - this could be on a daily or weekly basis.

Be aware if you lock a tenant out of a property even
* when they are causing damage
* have not paid the rent for a year
* when they are threatening neighbours and other tenants
* overholding where you have served a valid notice of termination.
You can be fined up to €20,000 and may have to let the tenant back in.

BostonB

I accept your points but that still doesn't mention the deposit. I don't have the time to look it up either. It makes perfect logical sense that the new LL gets the deposit from the old one, and thus the tenant gets it back from the new one. That doesn't mean its law.

Regarding threshold, once experience I had was, they told a tenant, who was overstaying by a few months, they could continue not pay rent and over stay for as long as they wanted, as the LL couldn't get them out until they went to court which could take a couple of years. I would just be wary of what they say tis all.

variety

slowmoe wrote: »

There are 3 tenants in the house, the lease has been in one tenants name for 5 years. Its a new contract every year when the old one runs out.

You only need to establish one thing: have you ever claimed your right to Part 4 Tenancy? (ie has the Tenant who is on the lease agreement every, in writing, confirmed to the LL that he is under a Part 4 Tenancy?).
If not, then I would assume the lease agreement is a Fixed Term agreement (it would specifically state this somewhere, if not numerous times, in the lease).

If it is a Fixed Term agreement then your LL CANNOT terminate your Tenancy.

Your LL is perfectly within his rights to sell the property, but your Tenancy cannot be affected in any way by the sale.

slowmoe wrote: »

Its not under offer or sale agreed, its actually sold. The landlord(who lives abroad) told us that he doesn't own the property anymore and the new owners agents will be in touch to facilitate our vacating the property.

If you have a Fixed Term tenancy, ignore their demands and take a case to the PRTB for illegal termination of Tenancy.

slowmoe

well this gets weirder and weirder and we're no closer to a resolution.

Basically the sales agent (who is NOT our letting agent) got back in touch with us with a response from the owner. They were never informed there were tenants in the house and had been told it was a family home. It had been the ll's family home before he started letting it! They were planning on moving in next fri and have started packing up their own stuff. They're in rented accomodation and had given in their notice to leave next fri. They have asked if we would leave this weekend or by tues to give them a chance to clean up before they move in.

Obviously we responded with no way can we leave on such short notice, we have a signed lease (not a part 4, please read the thread!) that is due to expire in 9 months. There is not a break clause therefore we will stay for the duration of the lease. The sales agent response was....laughter! Seriously he actually laughed on the phone and said as the house was sold we were now trespassers and would have to leave straight away or face public eviction by the gardai. I've kind of seen read by this because while its obvious the ll wasn't all that truthful about the property, the sales agents and solicitors haven't done their job if something so important as tenants with a contract have gone unnoticed.

The above phone call was to my flatmate and i rang sales agent back today, sounding all super informed with the info on this thread lol! Thanks guys! I informed him that a fixed term lease can't be broken....his response, you don't have a lease anymore that house is sold. That when we do vacate the property we will be expecting our deposit in full...his response, what deposit??? The owners have no contract with you, you're squatting on their property and that he should be calling the guards. There were the expected threats of changing the keys and he also said the owners had viewed the house twice!!! We're all in normal ish 9-5 mon-fri jobs which the ll knew, so i guess they took advantage of that to enter the house.

The end of the conversation was him saying he's calling the guards and me saying i'm going to start prtb proceedings. We'll see how this plays out but i'm pretty confident now its clear the agent is such a tool

littlejp

slowmoe wrote: »

well this gets weirder and weirder and we're no closer to a resolution.

Basically the sales agent (who is NOT our letting agent) got back in touch with us with a response from the owner. They were never informed there were tenants in the house and had been told it was a family home. It had been the ll's family home before he started letting it! They were planning on moving in next fri and have started packing up their own stuff. They're in rented accomodation and had given in their notice to leave next fri. They have asked if we would leave this weekend or by tues to give them a chance to clean up before they move in.

Obviously we responded with no way can we leave on such short notice, we have a signed lease (not a part 4, please read the thread!) that is due to expire in 9 months. There is not a break clause therefore we will stay for the duration of the lease. The sales agent response was....laughter! Seriously he actually laughed on the phone and said as the house was sold we were now trespassers and would have to leave straight away or face public eviction by the gardai. I've kind of seen read by this because while its obvious the ll wasn't all that truthful about the property, the sales agents and solicitors haven't done their job if something so important as tenants with a contract have gone unnoticed.

The above phone call was to my flatmate and i rang sales agent back today, sounding all super informed with the info on this thread lol! Thanks guys! I informed him that a fixed term lease can't be broken....his response, you don't have a lease anymore that house is sold. That when we do vacate the property we will be expecting our deposit in full...his response, what deposit??? The owners have no contract with you, you're squatting on their property and that he should be calling the guards. There were the expected threats of changing the keys and he also said the owners had viewed the house twice!!! We're all in normal ish 9-5 mon-fri jobs which the ll knew, so i guess they took advantage of that to enter the house.

The end of the conversation was him saying he's calling the guards and me saying i'm going to start prtb proceedings. We'll see how this plays out but i'm pretty confident now its clear the agent is such a tool

Unbelievable arrogance by the estate agent. I hope everything works out for you.

El Weirdo

*subscribing*

Bens

Your contract is with the original owner.
It doesnt exist anymore because they dont own the house after the house is sold.
It cant be passed on to the new owner as they never agreed a contract with you.

You dont have a contract with the house

You could ask the new owner if they would enter a new contract with you.

Anyway, dont rely on message boards for your info. Dont rely on the PTRB or threshold either.
Ask a solicitor and they will tell you. Show them your lease.

BostonB

Good luck with it. its unbelieveable.

Ste.phen

Bens wrote: »

Your contract is with the original owner.
It doesnt exist anymore because they dont own the house after the house is sold.
It cant be passed on to the new owner as they never agreed a contract with you.

You dont have a contract with the house

You could ask the new owner if they would enter a new contract with you.

Anyway, dont rely on message boards for your info. Dont rely on the PTRB or threshold either.
Ask a solicitor and they will tell you. Show them your lease.

This is so spectacularly wrong i can't even believe it - read the rest of the thread - the contract moves with the house

Ste.phen

OP, I'd recommend having a quick talk with the local Gardaí as soon as possible in case you come home from work some day next week to find your stuff outside the house and the locks changed

Also, extremely important:
Make copies of your most recent lease and keep one in work
Take some photos of the house, preferably dated, showing it clean and with all your stuff in-situ
Log the details of all calls/letters/texts/emails with the landlord and/or agents

IF they did change the locks and dump your stuff outside it'd be a massive pain in the ass, but you'd eventually get compensated by the new landlord after a PRTB ruling

As far as I can tell from the details given you're completely entitled to stay there until the lease expires, and they'll have to negotiate your leaving early if that's what they want (which I assume they do)

In my opinion, payment to you of about 4 months' rent + deposit, and giving you 1 month to vacate would be fair given your chance of not finding somewhere suitable in a month and needing to pay for hotel/b&B/short term lets to get you sorted -

Overall I think you're completely in the right - let your (new) landlord fight it out with the (old) landlord and the various solicitors , and make sure you start paying rent to the new landlord effective whatever date the house transferred into their name

Bens

Ste.phen wrote: »

This is so spectacularly wrong i can't even believe it - read the rest of the thread - the contract moves with the house

Its not wrong.
I know someone who has been in this exact situation about a 6 months ago.
They went arrived at their new house on the day they got the keys with a moving truck expecting the house to be empty and there was someone living in it. It had been rented by the seller and they werent told. Well everyone is suing everyone.

If you think someone can have a contract with a house then good luck to you.

They can try to take it up with their original landlord if they can get him. Go to a solicitor.

But im not asking the OP to believe me either. Or anyone else posting for that matter.

Best advice is for the OP to go talk to a solicitor. The solicitor isnt a text post on the other side of the internet. They are a professional and the OP can depend on the advice they get from them.

---

Im under the impression here that the house is sold already - done and dusted, not in the process of waiting for the exchange, and the new owner now owns it and wants it.

If your old landlord still owns it then the new owners solicitors will not let them go ahead until they get vacant possession.
WHy would someone buy a house someone else lives in. The sale will probably fall through. In that case as your contract is valid and with the actual owner of the house. You have nothing to worry about.