Wires everywhere!

seosamh

Hi,
I have an old horizon panel with wires that are not clearly labelled and wires running to a few windows and a door that are no longer there because of an extension. I am thinking I need to painstakingly test every wire to see if they still work and can be reused in the replacement panel. Is there an easy way to do this? Can I for instance disconnect the red and black from a sensor and somehow use a light or a buzzer to indicate if there is a match with any of the red and black pairings back at the panel by say using a battery back at the panel. There are about a dozen wires that run to the panel.
Thanks.

KoolKid

You can identify them using a multi meter.
You would need to close ,say,red and black, & measure the resistence in ohms, then open again and check it changes to open.
If its a bad mess you might consider starting from scratch & going wireless.
Do not connect any wires to the battery in the panel. If there is a short on a cable it will go up in smoke.

altor

seosamh wrote: »

Hi,
I have an old horizon panel with wires that are not clearly labelled and wires running to a few windows and a door that are no longer there because of an extension. I am thinking I need to painstakingly test every wire to see if they still work and can be reused in the replacement panel. Is there an easy way to do this? Can I for instance disconnect the red and black from a sensor and somehow use a light or a buzzer to indicate if there is a match with any of the red and black pairings back at the panel by say using a battery back at the panel. There are about a dozen wires that run to the panel.
Thanks.

If you disconnect the zone in the panel, remove any resistors if installed also. Connect the cable to the meter set on buzz. By tapping the sensor or opening the window if magnets are used then the buzz will stop. Another solution is to use an oscillator if you have one.

seosamh

Thanks for the advice, guys.

KoolKid

Your welcome,
Lets know how it works out for you.;)

altor

seosamh wrote: »

Thanks for the advice, guys.

Your welcome, if worst comes to the worst you could use a hybrid system utilizing the cables that work and install wire free components where they don't. It will also work out cheaper than installing a complete wire free system.

seosamh

altor wrote: »

Your welcome, if worst comes to the worst you could use a hybrid system utilizing the cables that work and install wire free components where they don't. It will also work out cheaper than installing a complete wire free system.

I am thinking of getting the HKC hybrid panel and even if I get the wires sorted, at least I have the option to go wireless later on.

I ran a wire through trunking down into the new extension to cover 3 windows and 3 velux and the door into the garden with sensor contacts. I was thinking of using the unused 4 wires on that line to put in a keypad at the back door. I was originally going to go with a motion detector but can't see the point since all entry points are covered individually. The extra keypad should be straightforward enough, right?
Thanks.

altor

seosamh wrote: »

I am thinking of getting the HKC hybrid panel and even if I get the wires sorted, at least I have the option to go wireless later on.

I ran a wire through trunking down into the new extension to cover 3 windows and 3 velux and the door into the garden with sensor contacts. I was thinking of using the unused 4 wires on that line to put in a keypad at the back door. I was originally going to go with a motion detector but can't see the point since all entry points are covered individually. The extra keypad should be straightforward enough, right?
Thanks.

There is no harm having motion detectors installed as back up along with the perimeter protection. Yes, it is only a mater of connecting the keypad to the system on the 4 cores. Inertia/contacts on windows with openings and just contacts on the velux. If you are going to use the back door as an entry/exit point then a cable to this door on its own so you can have it set on entry/exit will help.

seosamh

altor wrote: »

Inertia/contacts on windows with openings and just contacts on the velux.

So, you wouldn't go with inertia/contacts on the velux? Is that because of the rain setting them off? When I was buying the contacts at the electrical shop, the guy there recommended inertia/contacts as that's what he has in his own place on the velux and the rain nor a big bird dropping didn't cause them to go off. I was initially just going to use contacts on the velux but took his advice.
Waste of money?

altor

seosamh wrote: »

So, you wouldn't go with inertia/contacts on the velux? Is that because of the rain setting them off? When I was buying the contacts at the electrical shop, the guy there recommended inertia/contacts as that's what he has in his own place on the velux and the rain nor a big bird dropping didn't cause them to go off. I was initially just going to use contacts on the velux but took his advice.
Waste of money?

Contacts are recommended for velux.You are liable to get false alarms with inertia/contacts on the velux. It is due to the way they are installed, heavy rain hail stones an so will set them off leading to false alarms.

seosamh

Just to let you know how I got on. I used a multimeter on each individual wire. Firstly I picked a window and disconnected the sensor to expose the wires. Then I hooked up a 9 volt battery to the two wires, lets say red and black. Then went back to the panel and used the multimeter on the red and black pairings until I found the pair that gave a non-zero reading.
I found all except the two front windows upstairs quick enough. For these I could go wireless or leave them out as it would be unlikely that anyone would try enter this way.

altor

seosamh wrote: »

Just to let you know how I got on. I used a multimeter on each individual wire. Firstly I picked a window and disconnected the sensor to expose the wires. Then I hooked up a 9 volt battery to the two wires, lets say red and black. Then went back to the panel and used the multimeter on the red and black pairings until I found the pair that gave a non-zero reading.
I found all except the two front windows upstairs quick enough. For these I could go wireless or leave them out as it would be unlikely that anyone would try enter this way.

Thanks for getting back to us. Where the windows looped to another window ? What happens here is you would of joined the 2 red together, then joint the two black together and connect the battery you are using to the end of line.
If there is no access to these windows then it is unlikely they will be an entry point for a burglar. If there is access to them, the wire free sensor will do the job for you.

KoolKid

If you have access to a multi meter why not just measure the continuity ?

seosamh

altor wrote: »

Thanks for getting back to us. Where the windows looped to another window ? What happens here is you would of joined the 2 red together, then joint the two black together and connect the battery you are using to the end of line.

You could be right, they might be looped. The windows are in different rooms but now that I think of it, it was just one room when the alarm was put in 15-20 years ago. This seems more likely than severed wires. I'll test again tomorrow and see.
Thanks.

altor

seosamh wrote: »

You could be right, they might be looped. The windows are in different rooms but now that I think of it, it was just one room when the alarm was put in 15-20 years ago. This seems more likely than severed wires. I'll test again tomorrow and see.
Thanks.

Your welcome, if you have any other problems let us know

seosamh

altor wrote: »

Your welcome, if you have any other problems let us know

Thanks Altor, those windows were looped and showed up on the continuity test, thanks to Koolkid too. I had to google the continuity feature on the multimeter.

So now I have the wires sorted and have the panel on the wall and powered up.I haven't started wiring up the zones yet. I have the hybrid panel but won't be using the wireless features for now. There are 10 zones available - should I use up most of them to make it easier to pinpoint a faulty sensor if the panel starts to complain later on? Leave a zone or two in case I need to wire up a PIR or second keypad later?

thanks.

altor

Good to hear you got it sorted, saves you a few quid on the wire free sensors also
Yes, it is best to spread the zones among the 10 zones in the panel as it will make fault finding a lot easier if you do have any problems.
The keypad does not use up a zone, it is wired into the keypad bus on the top of the PCB along with the original keypad.

seosamh

I was enquiring at the electrical shop about the HSK GSM and the price I was given was about 320-340e. These must be straightforward enough to install but it would probably be the same price to have an installer do it as he'd get it at wholesale price and the hour labour to install would bring it to the same price.

Just wondering if you think they are worth it. And if it is possible to get the GSM unit to send out a message if there are two senors tripped e.g a window sensor followed by a PIR? Or if it can be set up to send out a message for each sensor tripping e.g one for the window and then another if the PIR is tripped.
thanks.

altor

€320 is the same price I buy it for so you are getting a good price. Yes, that is how they are set up. With the Securewave there is a new GSM coming out in about 8 weeks that will plug straight onto the board Going to be €180- €200. There is no outputs for home automation like on the GSM-P that you have the price for. Yes, that is how they work. It is a verified text to your mobile so you know someone is in. They can be blocked easily if you have the right equipment but I have never seen a blocker being used on a residential property.

seosamh

Thanks Altor, that is good to know - worth the wait as I don't think the home automation would get much use. That helps me too for tomorrow as I was going to place the keypad further from the panel to leave room for the gsm box. Now I don't have to.:D

I am also having trouble with the external bell which doesn't seem to be working. I'll take out the ladder tomorrow and see what's inside. Hope it's not a dummy box.

seosamh

Got my zones wired up and am getting near to finishing. I am thinking about putting a PIR in the kitchen even though the windows and door are all wired with sensors. Recommended?
Anything else I need to look out for with setting up the panel, being a novice and all?
Thanks.

altor

seosamh wrote: »

Got my zones wired up and am getting near to finishing. I am thinking about putting a PIR in the kitchen even though the windows and door are all wired with sensors. Recommended?
Anything else I need to look out for with setting up the panel, being a novice and all?
Thanks.

If you have the zones then there is no harm having it installed. Make sure you check the zone types. Entry/exit front door, Panic zone change to panic. Zones 2-10 are set up for alarm by default. Zone 1 is entry/exit but can be changed if you have the front door on another zone. Turn off the gross and pulse for zones that dont have shock sensors on them. If you have a PIR that you will walk in front of when you come in the front door to get to the keypad then in the options menu set this up for access. Also in the option menu if you want the PIR off when in partset set it in here.

seosamh

Thanks, those are good tips. The sensors on the windows are old, maybe 15 years, but they are Aritech. Should they be alright to leave them? They seem to trigger when I tap them with my finger.

I tried to take a look at the old external bell today. Climbed the ladder but the big rusty screw to open the cover wouldn't budge. Not sure whether to leave it and rely on GSM to call for help, neighbours might ignore the bell.

altor

seosamh wrote: »

Thanks, those are good tips. The sensors on the windows are old, maybe 15 years, but they are Aritech. Should they be alright to leave them? They seem to trigger when I tap them with my finger.

I tried to take a look at the old external bell today. Climbed the ladder but the big rusty screw to open the cover wouldn't budge. Not sure whether to leave it and rely on GSM to call for help, neighbours might ignore the bell.

Hard to know without testing them really. If you do have a few false alarms you will soon know though Without knowing what colours are connected to what in the bell you will have to leave it off the system. Did you mark what was connected in the old panel ?

KoolKid

15 year old sensors & a rusty bell does not make for a great alarm.
What type aritech sensors are they?
If its these

I'd consider changing them. Do you have many false alarms.
Changing the bell is a must. This is the first & biggest big deterrant.
Take a look at the Pyronix Delta Bell.


If you are disconnecting the bell , remove all connections & take the resistor out of the bell & wire into the panel across Bell Hold Off & Tamper Return.

seosamh

altor wrote: »

Hard to know without testing them really. If you do have a few false alarms you will soon know though Without knowing what colours are connected to what in the bell you will have to leave it off the system. Did you mark what was connected in the old panel ?

I found two wires in the old panel that both failed the continuity test, so I thought these must be from old kitchen and bathroom downstairs which were demolished and replaced with the extension. I didn't find a wire for the ext bell and only the two internal bells were wired up in the old panel. Although there was a yellow and blue that showed up continuous on a wire where the red and black were for a window sensor. So maybe I should test these just in case.

seosamh

KoolKid wrote: »

15 year old sensors & a rusty bell does not make for a great alarm.
What type aritech sensors are they?
If its these

I'd consider changing them. Do you have many false alarms.
Changing the bell is a must. This is the first & biggest big deterrant.
Take a look at the Pyronix Delta Bell.


If you are disconnecting the bell , remove all connections & take the resistor out of the bell & wire into the panel across Bell Hold Off & Tamper Return.

That sensor in the picture is the type I am using to replace some of the old ones and for all the new windows in the kitchen. You don't recommend these?

Is it true that Eircom don't provide an external bell? Do you think having a dummy bell/broken bell can act as a deterrent that might make a burglar think twice? Putting up a new bell is a lot of trouble routing the wire unless it's wireless of course and then there is the maintenance -changing batteries every few years.

KoolKid

I would recommend the bigger 612/13 or the 710/11
Eircom don't provide an external bell as standard. They like to get an extra couple of hundred euro for that privilege. Plus it's to discourage you from cancelling the monitoring.

I think a good external bell is an essential part of an alarm system.
How any one can consider it an optional extra is beyond me..
A wired route is never as hard as you think. Get someone put to take a look.

seosamh

Stroke of great luck today, found the wire for the external bell. So I hooked it up and it worked! The light under the alarm box didn't work. Would the light have its own wires, the wires I hooked up were red and black. Would the blue and yellow control the light? With 15 year since it was installed, could it be the bulb that's gone?
Thanks.

KoolKid

There would be a second pair for the strobe. If its only a 4 core that would have to be Blue & Yellow. Is it already connected at the bell? Can you check the connections there?

seosamh

KoolKid wrote: »

There would be a second pair for the strobe. If its only a 4 core that would have to be Blue & Yellow. Is it already connected at the bell? Can you check the connections there?

Can't open the external bell box - the rusty screw keeping it shut just won't turn. So I could just wire up the blue and yellow to the strobe slots on the panel and see what happens?

KoolKid

Yep or try them into the Aux + & - .
There is a possibility you may blow a fuse here.

altor

You wont blow a fuse as the fuses are re-settable fuses in the Securewave panel.
If you have tested the blue and yellow on continuity and get nothing off the cable then an option would be to connect it to the 12v battery and see if the strobe works. Blue for - and yellow for +. If that does not work try it the other way around. If you do get the strobe lighting connect it to the panel as the strobe will only be on when the alarm activates on the older type bell you have installed.

seosamh

altor wrote: »

You wont blow a fuse as the fuses are re-settable fuses in the Securewave panel.
If you have tested the blue and yellow on continuity and get nothing off the cable then an option would be to connect it to the 12v battery and see if the strobe works. Blue for - and yellow for +. If that does not work try it the other way around. If you do get the strobe lighting connect it to the panel as the strobe will only be on when the alarm activates on the older type bell you have installed.

That's how I discovered the external bell, just went direct to the battery. Hopefully it will work for the strobe. Coincidentally, the house two doors up just got a new bell installed yesterday, a sleek one just like Koolkid was recommending. But i'd be happy to get this one going again, no need for any extra bells and whistles.:D

altor

seosamh wrote: »

That's how I discovered the external bell, just went direct to the battery. Hopefully it will work for the strobe. Coincidentally, the house two doors up just got a new bell installed yesterday, a sleek one just like Koolkid was recommending. But i'd be happy to get this one going again, no need for any extra bells and whistles.:D

I have used this method on a bell that could not be opened many a time
They are a good bell, use them myself. With the new bell on an old system it makes it look like you have a new system. I would bite the bullet and get the sledge to the old bell It is more of a deterrent that the older bell you have.

KoolKid

altor wrote: »

You wont blow a fuse as the fuses are re-settable fuses in the Securewave panel.
.

Your right ,Altor . Was still thinking of the original panel.
It seems a shame having a nice securewave onto an old bell. Splash out on an external.:D

seosamh

How much would one of those fancy bells cost? Could I just get a sticker that says 'this works' and put in on the old bell. That or a skull and crossbones to scare off the 'up to no good' types.

KoolKid

You could get a Delta Bell for €40-€50 if you were to fit it yourself.
I think they don't look as good with a blank lid though. Shop around a few companies & you could get a screened one fitted cheap enough.

seosamh

Just got the strobe to work! The blue and yellow wires did the trick. Thanks guys.

I don't really want to yank it off the wall now. I'd prefer to put the money into the HKC GSM board when it comes on the market.

altor

seosamh wrote: »

Just got the strobe to work! The blue and yellow wires did the trick. Thanks guys.

I don't really want to yank it off the wall now. I'd prefer to put the money into the HKC GSM board when it comes on the market.

The deterrent of the new bell would be better. It is up to you but that would be the way I would go.

seosamh

I hear you but seems a waste of money if the bell and strobe are working perfectly.
I came across these decals on ebay that might take the bare look off the bell.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

KoolKid

seosamh wrote: »

I hear you but seems a waste of money if the bell and strobe are working perfectly.
I came across these decals on ebay that might take the bare look off the bell.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

So false. It stands out a mile its not a real company. You would be doing yourself more harm than good. I take what you say about the bell working, but its all about how it looks. Your external bell is the first deterrant . If that looks old a potential burglar will presume your system is also.

fred funk }{

I would highly recommend installing a new bell. They're a great deterrent and think about it, if you were a burglar and you were looking to break into a house and you came upon two houses, one with a rusty 25 year old bell and the other had a new bell with flashing LED lights, which house would you break into?

altor

seosamh wrote: »

I hear you but seems a waste of money if the bell and strobe are working perfectly.
I came across these decals on ebay that might take the bare look off the bell.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

I would not advise putting that on your bell. Stick with the old working bell.

seosamh

Hi,
I was just taking a look at my own alarm panel, an old aritech 350 I think. Anyway the external bell wasn't working so I connected it directly to the battery and it was fine. Then I decided to shove in the two wires for the external alongside the internal bells slots. Long story short, I think I blew a fuse as now neither the internal nor external bell is now working. Are the fuses standard and easy to replace?
Thanks.

altor

seosamh wrote: »

Hi,
I was just taking a look at my own alarm panel, an old aritech 350 I think. Anyway the external bell wasn't working so I connected it directly to the battery and it was fine. Then I decided to shove in the two wires for the external alongside the internal bells slots. Long story short, I think I blew a fuse as now neither the internal nor external bell is now working. Are the fuses standard and easy to replace?
Thanks.

Yes, they are on the board.
Here is the locations.

seosamh

altor wrote: »

Yes, they are on the board.
Here is the locations.

Thanks Altor, much appreciated.

seosamh

Just while I'm at it, is there much trouble in resetting the panel as I don't have the engineer's code - I was thinking of adding a PIR? Thanks.

altor

Check and see if you have a spare zone available before attempting to default the system. There are 6 zones on this panel. If you do then defaulting the panel once not engineer locked is very easy. Turn off the mains, open the panel, disconnect the battery, remove the link in the center of the board JP1. Reconnect the battery and the system should default. Use the default user code 1122 to turn the alarm off. If this code does not turn off the alarm then use your original code. If the original code works then the panel is engineer locked and would need an engineer to default it. The default engineer code for the system is 1278. Dont forget to put the link back on before you put the lid back on the control panel.

Any problems, let us know.

seosamh

Thanks, I'll give it a go once I have the fuses sorted.

altor

seosamh wrote: »

Thanks, I'll give it a go once I have the fuses sorted.

Your welcome, the fuse rating is on the PDF also.