Foreign kids names as gaeilge

JMSE

When I asked my kids how the foreign kids get called out at roll call (role call?) time, they said they just get called by their normal name. Isn't that wrong?

Granted theres a massive unfamiliarity problem with the new names that teachers have been presented, but isn't roll call meant to be done as gaeilge. When I went to school there was no grey in this black and white area. Its not as if calling Blessed Aziz by his Gaelic name of Mac An Beannaithe Aziz at roll time is going to throw the Genealogy records askew.

Does nobody else think that Pavel Tomasz could for the sake of amusing the millions who have gone before him, listening to their name being called in the official language of the state, be called out as maybe Pól Mhic Thomáis?

Victor

JMSE wrote: »

but isn't roll call meant to be done as gaeilge.

No, thats linguistic bigotry. The child's name is the child's name - none of this Gaeliscisation / Anglicisation / whatever please.

Its perfectly acceptable to let the child know that there are linguistic equivalents of names, but teachers don't have the right to change names unilaterally.

JMSE

I don't understand Victor, you're saying that the normal practice of calling the roll in Irish is linguistic bigotry?

byhookorbycrook

I teach in a Gaelscoil,we let parents choose what version of the forename they want their child to have at school."Making up" a name for a child with say, a Polish name ,to me is the same as looking for "seacht suas" at a bar, i.e silly,

JMSE

So scrap the whole system as it stands, and obviously go for the English version of all names? But ....... that doesnt make a whole lot of sense.......in Ireland

Is the Irish roll call just a hangover from an irrelevant era? a chance for teachers to use poetic licence to take a stab at how they think their student's names are spelled in Irish? My two kid's teachers get our name wrong every year, I presume they just get the book from the previous teacher and copy but thats ok, its not a major thing once the kids know the correct way, I can handle it. So why not bring foreign kids into our culture properly by giving them a Hiberno-* identity of their own, they aren't after all being reared in the middle of Europe.

Niallb what do you think?

byhookorbycrook

Some names, like Norman names didn't really translate anyhow- like Ferriter. If your child's name is incorrect year after year, then why not let the school know?As a matter of interest did you ever read "An Béal Bocht" where childrens' names were all translated forcibly into English?

JMSE

No by I didnt, I've always told people not to put huge store on what our Anglo-names are, the true name being now quite unverifiable.

But I don't think my theme is hypocritical. Irish names that were 'an beal bochted' into English were done as an act of oppression. Whereas immigrants into Ireland aren't oppressed. Ireland holds hope for them. For a teacher to call out a child's name in Irish (for Ivory Coast parents) should be something to celebrate, of integration. To state the contrary would mean they don't really want to participate here so let someone else defend that.

Chocolate

Okay JMSE. Help me out here.

How will I translate Olumide Oladipupo or Airidas Crncevic into Irish?!!

byhookorbycrook

JMSE wrote: »

. For a teacher to call out a child's name in Irish (for Ivory Coast parents) should be something to celebrate, of integration. To state the contrary would mean they don't really want to participate here so let someone else defend that.

My point is that there IS no Irish equivalent, so you'd end up with some An Gúm type meaningless rubbish.A made-up name is hardly integration or cause for celebration.

Victor

JMSE wrote: »

No by I didnt, I've always told people not to put huge store on what our Anglo-names are, the true name being now quite unverifiable.

You are confusing the history of someone's name / their ancestor's names with their own names. I wen 190 years back through my mother's family and there are 59 different spellings of that surname (not including "Mc/Mac"s and "O"s). Of course, the name is originally Welsh.

JMSE wrote: »

So scrap the whole system as it stands, and obviously go for the English version of all names?

My first name is an Irish name. My surname is an English name that may have either English or Irish origins. Changing it would only add new confusion.

But ....... that doesnt make a whole lot of sense.......in Ireland

Why not? Isn't English the ordinary everyday language (outside the home and language classes) of pretty much the enitre population?

JMSE wrote: »

But I don't think my theme is hypocritical. Irish names that were 'an beal bochted' into English were done as an act of oppression. Whereas immigrants into Ireland aren't oppressed.

So you are going to make up for the lack of oppression by attempting to erase their heritage? Much hypocracy, no?

JMSE

Are there teachers online? Why does a teacher call the roll as Gaeilge?

As for Olumide Oladipupo or Airidas Crncevic, ask their parents what the name means, if the answer is nothing then so what, after all I'm only talking about a roll book entry, not a genealogical derailment :rolleyes:

Olumide Mac Oladipupo and Airidas Mac Crncevic should do fine, in the roll book (see post no.1)

mikeyboy

My niece has a lad in her class called Achunaifeuwanike Benjelloun, according to my sis his first name means something like "dwell not upon the things of man" so is a teacher really supposed to call out "Lár ní ar na rudaí na fir"?* The poor kid's life would be made a living hell.
*Please excuse my translation it's been a while

Zaph

JMSE wrote: »

So scrap the whole system as it stands, and obviously go for the English version of all names? But ....... that doesnt make a whole lot of sense.......in Ireland

How is, to use your example above, Pavel the English version of the kid's name?

I work with several Polish people, I don't just randomly start calling them by the English equivalent of what their names are, I call them by their proper given names, which oddly enough happen to be Polish.

PseudoFamous

JMSE wrote: »

Why does a teacher call the roll as Gaeilge?

I have never heard of this except in Gaelscoils. Honestly. Everyone in my class was called out by their first name (other than the ones who'd clash with others, e.g., two James, which got a surname), in the original language, for all my eight years of primary school.

tyney

Son of local chipper was john forte. Irish teacher called him Sean daichead.

JMSE

Its late Zaph, and I dont know what you are talking about. Back to the roll book thing.

JMSE

PseudoFamous wrote: »

I have never heard of this except in Gaelscoils. Honestly. Everyone in my class was called out by their first name (other than the ones who'd clash with others, e.g., two James, which got a surname), in the original language, for all my eight years of primary school.

Thanks for that PseudoFamous. When I went (obviously not this decade and not the last as I mentioned my kids in the first post) we were all called by our Irish names, all the way through a normal Meath national school. So my assumptions of what is normal are based on that. So if other schools didnt follow the same pattern then I understand why most contributors here don't share my opinion.

Zaph

JMSE wrote: »

Its late Zaph, and I dont know what you are talking about. Back to the roll book thing.

Quite straightforward really. You posted this:

JMSE wrote: »

Does nobody else think that Pavel Tomasz could for the sake of amusing the millions who have gone before him, listening to their name being called in the official language of the state, be called out as maybe Pól Mhic Thomáis?

And this:

JMSE wrote: »

So scrap the whole system as it stands, and obviously go for the English version of all names? But ....... that doesnt make a whole lot of sense.......in Ireland

Your point seems to be that we just use the "English " version of the names, but Pavel isn't an English name, it's Polish. I fail to see what changing it to Pól for the roll call would achieve tbh.

shofukan

Just a thought...
Say you had an east asian student, 母牛辛鋰.
Whose name is anglicised as kao xin li.
How do you properly translate such a name into Irish given that strictly speaking, there is no k or x in the language?

murraykil

JMSE wrote: »

When I asked my kids how the foreign kids get called out at roll call (role call?) time, they said they just get called by their normal name. Isn't that wrong?

Granted theres a massive unfamiliarity problem with the new names that teachers have been presented, but isn't roll call meant to be done as gaeilge. When I went to school there was no grey in this black and white area. Its not as if calling Blessed Aziz by his Gaelic name of Mac An Beannaithe Aziz at roll time is going to throw the Genealogy records askew.

Does nobody else think that Pavel Tomasz could for the sake of amusing the millions who have gone before him, listening to their name being called in the official language of the state, be called out as maybe Pól Mhic Thomáis?

JMSE wrote: »

Its late Zaph, and I dont know what you are talking about. Back to the roll book thing.

There is also the risk that the names will be translated in a very inaccurate manner like you have done! Adding Mic, Mac or Mhac to a name doesn't make it Irish, which is the language I assume you are referring to when you say Gaelic!

Blessed Aziz would be Beannaithe Asís or Asís Beannaithe to be grammatically correct and convey the original meaning more accurately. Pavel Tomasz would be simply Pól Tomás.

However, I don't think a name change should be forced on anyone, but since it's school, they deserve to have their name translated accurately to do with as they please.

murraykil

seanor3 wrote: »

Just a thought...
Say you had an east asian student, 母牛辛鋰.
Whose name is anglicised as kao xin li.
How do you properly translate such a name into Irish given that strictly speaking, there is no k or x in the language?

k = cé

x has snook it's way into Irish! :pac:

xileafón mar shampla!

shofukan

murraykil wrote: »

k = cé

x has snook it's way into Irish! :pac:

xileafón mar shampla!

Ah yeah, I remember..
So what would be the translation of 母牛辛鋰 (Kao Xin Li)?

murraykil

seanor3 wrote: »

Ah yeah, I remember..
So what would be the translation of 母牛辛鋰 (Kao Xin Li)?

I'm not sure how that sounds!

Kao = Cow? = Cáubh! :pac: Maybe even Bó if you fancy it!

Xin = Zin or Zhin? Xín

Li = Lee or Lie? = Lao (which is the word for a calf (young of cattle)) or Luigh

This is my best guess!

Cáubh Xín Luigh!

Edit: Actually, to make it really bovine, you could go for Bó Xín Lao! That would be a cool name!

al28283

I've always thought the idea of a name being translated was moronic.

JMSE

You may say I'm moron, but I'm not the only one
I hope some day you'll join us
And the world will live as one.

/can't win em all I suppose :pac:

al28283

JMSE wrote: »

You may say I'm moron, but I'm not the only one
I hope some day you'll join us
And the world will live as one.

/can't win em all I suppose :pac:

No, I said the idea of translating a name was moronic.

Moonbeam

My name has no irish translation or equivalent.
Both my daughters names are completely as gaeilge.
If people translated their names to english to use them because it suited them I would be offended.

mcmoustache

A name is a name. If a kid was named Pavel by his parents, then that it his name - not Paul or Pól.

If his parents wanted him to be called Pól, they would have called him that. They didn't. They called him Pavel so that's his name.

As another poster said above, translating names doesn't make any sense. I have a name that I go by and that's my name. It's not an option for people to call me by anything other than my name unless it's an abbreviation or a nickname and only as long as I'm ok with it.

Kash

The idea of translating a child's name for the purpose of roll call is, in my opinion, archaic and insulting to them, their parents and most likely their culture.

It's not very understanding of the Irish culture either, given the fact that the reverse caused so much heartache in the past.

People are given a name - it is theirs, and is part of their identity.
Teachers have no right to change that. I have no issue with a child knowing the roots of their name, and of the equivalent in Irish, French or Zulu, but to manufacture such a name to hold with an archaic tradition is wrong. The times do change.

mcmoustache

Moonbeam wrote: »

My name has no irish translation or equivalent.

It's Ga Gealaigh.

You're welcome :cool:

paddyandy

We simply do not think out potential problems....just went for the expedient when mass immigration was inevitable......simply the irish way.....but if it was an up and coming football match we'd have every possible angle. We dress up in business suits for Footie on TV and no laughing is permitted.Something of great national significance serious discussion is not encouraged and we must be pc all the way.....to where?????????We don't know and do we care?

syklops

JMSE wrote: »

As for Olumide Oladipupo or Airidas Crncevic, ask their parents what the name means, if the answer is nothing then so what, after all I'm only talking about a roll book entry, not a genealogical derailment :rolleyes:

Actually one of the best pieces of genealogical evidence is school roll books.

Kash wrote:

The idea of translating a child's name for the purpose of roll call is, in my opinion, archaic and insulting to them, their parents and most likely their culture.

It's not very understanding of the Irish culture either, given the fact that the reverse caused so much heartache in the past.

People are given a name - it is theirs, and is part of their identity.
Teachers have no right to change that. I have no issue with a child knowing the roots of their name, and of the equivalent in Irish, French or Zulu, but to manufacture such a name to hold with an archaic tradition is wrong. The times do change.

Hear, hear.

Victor

paddyandy wrote: »

We simply do not think out potential problems....just went for the expedient when mass immigration was inevitable......simply the irish way.....but if it was an up and coming football match we'd have every possible angle. We dress up in business suits for Footie on TV and no laughing is permitted.Something of great national significance serious discussion is not encouraged and we must be pc all the way.....to where?????????We don't know and do we care?

Whut?

thesimpsons

I can't for the life of me understand why schools change children's names to suit an attendance record book. Take for instance : John, his name is John, his parents called him that, he has answered to it exclusively for 5 years to everyone person who met him, the name has been in the family for 100 years, he wasn't called Sean, doesn't know anyone called Sean, he couldn't care less about Sean or what the word means so why should someone change the name for him.

there were 5 Siobhans in my daughters class last year - only one of them was actually called Siobhan by her parents, the rest were an assortment of Joans, Susans, and I can't remember the rest.

When I was in school one particular teacher tried to call me by another name cos my name wasn't "irish". I refused to answer, my parents were called in and got the teacher to back down and agree to call me by my proper name. I have nothing against irish names or gaelscoils (my kids go to one) but a name is a name and not something made up or changed to suit an attendance book.

paddyandy

Nobody gets to keeping their name when they go out into the world if it's longer than one syllable .

al28283

paddyandy wrote: »

Nobody gets to keeping their name when they go out into the world if it's longer than one syllable .

what?

Kash

paddyandy wrote: »

Nobody gets to keeping their name when they go out into the world if it's longer than one syllable .

Shortening Jonathon to Jon as a nickname is not actually the same as changing it to Sean for calling the role. A roll call should record your given name.

John Mason

errr............i am irish and have traced my irish roots back to the 16th centuary in Wexford but there is no irish version of my forename or surname, so i really dont see what difference it makes

JMSE

irishbird wrote: »

errr............i am irish and have traced my irish roots back to the 16th centuary in Wexford

err...........blow in!

guppy

Such a bug bear of mine! My forename is welsh, surname english, but not translatable to irish. My name never changed to "Irish" in primary school. Why is a Welsh name ok to leave be, but not an English name (which probably has its roots in hebrew/greek/whatever anyway?).

I gave my daughter a name a birth, if I'd wanted her to be called Aoife I would have called her that. Why did her school feel the need to decide I was wrong in my decision and call her Aoife in the roll? I knew what I was doing when I named her, who are they to say I was wrong?

Toto Wolfcastle

My surname was translated incorrectly on the roll in primary school and I was not aware of this until I went to an Irish-speaking secondary school. By that stage I didn't feel the need to change it to the correct version and continued to use it during secondary school. It just seems like a bit of a stupid system if the names aren't going to be translated correctly. I didn't realise it was still done in schools.

dee.

In my school (not a gailscoil) our teacher called the roll as gaeilge, not sure why but she did every day. I have quite an uncommon surname so she just replaced a few letters and threw on a couple of fadas, to make me "fit in" I suppose.

Al Capwned

This is a pet hate of mine - My name was never translated in school, but i was playing football one day a few years back and my name in the programme was A. ó Phroctúir - absolutely ridiculous...

As previous posters have said -
John is not Seán,
Mark is not Marc,
Susan is not Siobhán,
Margaret is not Mairéad......

JMSE

What a load of bolloney, 'John is not Sean'.... this is Ireland and we actually have a different language here from English. Go to France I'll bet your John will be enrolled as Jean or in Germany William might be written down as Willhelm. Its probably not that unusual at all. Just putting Sean down in an Irish context instead of John is not exactly unexpected.

Also dont the GAA always use Irish on teamsheets? Once again, you are on the island of Ireland, its hardly unexpected that Proctor might be given an ó prefix.

Al Capwned

JMSE wrote: »

What a load of bolloney, 'John is not Sean'.... this is Ireland and we actually have a different language here from English. Go to France I'll bet your John will be enrolled as Jean or in Germany William might be written down as Willhelm. Its probably not that unusual at all. Just putting Sean down in an Irish context instead of John is not exactly unexpected.

Also dont the GAA always use Irish on teamsheets? Once again, you are on the island of Ireland, its hardly unexpected that Proctor might be given an ó prefix.

Unexpected or not, my point is that John and Seán (as an example) are two completely different names - Dont get me wrong, i appreciate the heritage and history of our country, and that this is an opinion of some on how things should be, and I can understand why this is done, but I just dont agree with it at all.

It's not just an Irish thing either, I had a guy working for me a few years ago from Poland named Andrzej - and i asked him about it one day and it annoyed him that some people here called him Andrew - that's not his name; same as my surname name does not have ó in it!

As for the GAA always using Irish on teamsheets, my name was only ever translated the once - all other occasions, it was left in it's proper, English form of A.Proctor. Again, I understand why names are 'translated', but I just dont agree with it.

One other thing - perhaps i'm wrong in this regard, but that expression - "Island of Ireland" has, for me, been used by some politicians and others (esp. Sinn Féin) for the past while as maybe a more 'politically correct' way of saying the 32 counties, and that grates too - Like it or not, the Republic, and Northern Ireland are two distinct countries. Not wanting to kick off a row, just an observation, and i know it's off topic, so apologies for that.

cofy

My daughter is the only girl in the class whose name does not translate to Irish. She asked me if I could translate her name as she did not want to be the only girl without an Irish name. I found a website that translated her name and she was delighted, and it sounded lovely. I'm sure that knowing your name in Irish is something of interest to a lot of people but nothing more. The school still uses her forename in english and translate her surname to Irish. If you are going to translate the surname why not translate the forename as well?

Victor

JMSE wrote: »

What a load of bolloney, 'John is not Sean'.... this is Ireland and we actually have a different language here from English. Go to France I'll bet your John will be enrolled as Jean or in Germany William might be written down as Willhelm. Its probably not that unusual at all.

I have never seen evidence of this.

Richard

As I'm from Northern Ireland and never learnt Irish, could someone explain this to me please? In a normal school (non Irish medium), is the roll done in Irish? Is this in every school, or every class within certain schools, or just random, based on the wishes of the teacher?

byhookorbycrook

The roll is meant to be in Irish, but some schools don't do so.

ITS_A_BADGER

op you seem patriotic right? seeing how you want foreign childrens names translated into irish. how would you feel say if you were living in for example germany or russia right. and they insisted on calling your children their names in german or russian. im guessing you wouldnt be pleased and see it as an insult to your irishness. i dont know you but thats the vibe i get from you

goose2005

Chocolate wrote: »

Okay JMSE. Help me out here.

How will I translate Olumide Oladipupo or Airidas Crncevic into Irish?!!

Ólúmaidé Ó Leadaípiúpó, Earaideas Tsiorntsoibhits.