Foreign kids names as gaeilge

JMSE

When I asked my kids how the foreign kids get called out at roll call (role call?) time, they said they just get called by their normal name. Isn't that wrong?

Granted theres a massive unfamiliarity problem with the new names that teachers have been presented, but isn't roll call meant to be done as gaeilge. When I went to school there was no grey in this black and white area. Its not as if calling Blessed Aziz by his Gaelic name of Mac An Beannaithe Aziz at roll time is going to throw the Genealogy records askew.

Does nobody else think that Pavel Tomasz could for the sake of amusing the millions who have gone before him, listening to their name being called in the official language of the state, be called out as maybe Pól Mhic Thomáis?

Victor

JMSE wrote: »

but isn't roll call meant to be done as gaeilge.

No, thats linguistic bigotry. The child's name is the child's name - none of this Gaeliscisation / Anglicisation / whatever please.

Its perfectly acceptable to let the child know that there are linguistic equivalents of names, but teachers don't have the right to change names unilaterally.

JMSE

I don't understand Victor, you're saying that the normal practice of calling the roll in Irish is linguistic bigotry?

byhookorbycrook

I teach in a Gaelscoil,we let parents choose what version of the forename they want their child to have at school."Making up" a name for a child with say, a Polish name ,to me is the same as looking for "seacht suas" at a bar, i.e silly,

JMSE

So scrap the whole system as it stands, and obviously go for the English version of all names? But ....... that doesnt make a whole lot of sense.......in Ireland

Is the Irish roll call just a hangover from an irrelevant era? a chance for teachers to use poetic licence to take a stab at how they think their student's names are spelled in Irish? My two kid's teachers get our name wrong every year, I presume they just get the book from the previous teacher and copy but thats ok, its not a major thing once the kids know the correct way, I can handle it. So why not bring foreign kids into our culture properly by giving them a Hiberno-* identity of their own, they aren't after all being reared in the middle of Europe.

Niallb what do you think?

byhookorbycrook

Some names, like Norman names didn't really translate anyhow- like Ferriter. If your child's name is incorrect year after year, then why not let the school know?As a matter of interest did you ever read "An Béal Bocht" where childrens' names were all translated forcibly into English?

JMSE

No by I didnt, I've always told people not to put huge store on what our Anglo-names are, the true name being now quite unverifiable.

But I don't think my theme is hypocritical. Irish names that were 'an beal bochted' into English were done as an act of oppression. Whereas immigrants into Ireland aren't oppressed. Ireland holds hope for them. For a teacher to call out a child's name in Irish (for Ivory Coast parents) should be something to celebrate, of integration. To state the contrary would mean they don't really want to participate here so let someone else defend that.

Chocolate

Okay JMSE. Help me out here.

How will I translate Olumide Oladipupo or Airidas Crncevic into Irish?!!

byhookorbycrook

JMSE wrote: »

. For a teacher to call out a child's name in Irish (for Ivory Coast parents) should be something to celebrate, of integration. To state the contrary would mean they don't really want to participate here so let someone else defend that.

My point is that there IS no Irish equivalent, so you'd end up with some An Gúm type meaningless rubbish.A made-up name is hardly integration or cause for celebration.

Victor

JMSE wrote: »

No by I didnt, I've always told people not to put huge store on what our Anglo-names are, the true name being now quite unverifiable.

You are confusing the history of someone's name / their ancestor's names with their own names. I wen 190 years back through my mother's family and there are 59 different spellings of that surname (not including "Mc/Mac"s and "O"s). Of course, the name is originally Welsh.

JMSE wrote: »

So scrap the whole system as it stands, and obviously go for the English version of all names?

My first name is an Irish name. My surname is an English name that may have either English or Irish origins. Changing it would only add new confusion.

But ....... that doesnt make a whole lot of sense.......in Ireland

Why not? Isn't English the ordinary everyday language (outside the home and language classes) of pretty much the enitre population?

JMSE wrote: »

But I don't think my theme is hypocritical. Irish names that were 'an beal bochted' into English were done as an act of oppression. Whereas immigrants into Ireland aren't oppressed.

So you are going to make up for the lack of oppression by attempting to erase their heritage? Much hypocracy, no?

JMSE

Are there teachers online? Why does a teacher call the roll as Gaeilge?

As for Olumide Oladipupo or Airidas Crncevic, ask their parents what the name means, if the answer is nothing then so what, after all I'm only talking about a roll book entry, not a genealogical derailment :rolleyes:

Olumide Mac Oladipupo and Airidas Mac Crncevic should do fine, in the roll book (see post no.1)

mikeyboy

My niece has a lad in her class called Achunaifeuwanike Benjelloun, according to my sis his first name means something like "dwell not upon the things of man" so is a teacher really supposed to call out "Lár ní ar na rudaí na fir"?* The poor kid's life would be made a living hell.
*Please excuse my translation it's been a while

Zaph

JMSE wrote: »

So scrap the whole system as it stands, and obviously go for the English version of all names? But ....... that doesnt make a whole lot of sense.......in Ireland

How is, to use your example above, Pavel the English version of the kid's name?

I work with several Polish people, I don't just randomly start calling them by the English equivalent of what their names are, I call them by their proper given names, which oddly enough happen to be Polish.

PseudoFamous

JMSE wrote: »

Why does a teacher call the roll as Gaeilge?

I have never heard of this except in Gaelscoils. Honestly. Everyone in my class was called out by their first name (other than the ones who'd clash with others, e.g., two James, which got a surname), in the original language, for all my eight years of primary school.

tyney

Son of local chipper was john forte. Irish teacher called him Sean daichead.

JMSE

Its late Zaph, and I dont know what you are talking about. Back to the roll book thing.

JMSE

PseudoFamous wrote: »

I have never heard of this except in Gaelscoils. Honestly. Everyone in my class was called out by their first name (other than the ones who'd clash with others, e.g., two James, which got a surname), in the original language, for all my eight years of primary school.

Thanks for that PseudoFamous. When I went (obviously not this decade and not the last as I mentioned my kids in the first post) we were all called by our Irish names, all the way through a normal Meath national school. So my assumptions of what is normal are based on that. So if other schools didnt follow the same pattern then I understand why most contributors here don't share my opinion.

Zaph

JMSE wrote: »

Its late Zaph, and I dont know what you are talking about. Back to the roll book thing.

Quite straightforward really. You posted this:

JMSE wrote: »

Does nobody else think that Pavel Tomasz could for the sake of amusing the millions who have gone before him, listening to their name being called in the official language of the state, be called out as maybe Pól Mhic Thomáis?

And this:

JMSE wrote: »

So scrap the whole system as it stands, and obviously go for the English version of all names? But ....... that doesnt make a whole lot of sense.......in Ireland

Your point seems to be that we just use the "English " version of the names, but Pavel isn't an English name, it's Polish. I fail to see what changing it to Pól for the roll call would achieve tbh.

shofukan

Just a thought...
Say you had an east asian student, 母牛辛鋰.
Whose name is anglicised as kao xin li.
How do you properly translate such a name into Irish given that strictly speaking, there is no k or x in the language?

murraykil

JMSE wrote: »

When I asked my kids how the foreign kids get called out at roll call (role call?) time, they said they just get called by their normal name. Isn't that wrong?

Granted theres a massive unfamiliarity problem with the new names that teachers have been presented, but isn't roll call meant to be done as gaeilge. When I went to school there was no grey in this black and white area. Its not as if calling Blessed Aziz by his Gaelic name of Mac An Beannaithe Aziz at roll time is going to throw the Genealogy records askew.

Does nobody else think that Pavel Tomasz could for the sake of amusing the millions who have gone before him, listening to their name being called in the official language of the state, be called out as maybe Pól Mhic Thomáis?

JMSE wrote: »

Its late Zaph, and I dont know what you are talking about. Back to the roll book thing.

There is also the risk that the names will be translated in a very inaccurate manner like you have done! Adding Mic, Mac or Mhac to a name doesn't make it Irish, which is the language I assume you are referring to when you say Gaelic!

Blessed Aziz would be Beannaithe Asís or Asís Beannaithe to be grammatically correct and convey the original meaning more accurately. Pavel Tomasz would be simply Pól Tomás.

However, I don't think a name change should be forced on anyone, but since it's school, they deserve to have their name translated accurately to do with as they please.

murraykil

seanor3 wrote: »

Just a thought...
Say you had an east asian student, 母牛辛鋰.
Whose name is anglicised as kao xin li.
How do you properly translate such a name into Irish given that strictly speaking, there is no k or x in the language?

k = cé

x has snook it's way into Irish! :pac:

xileafón mar shampla!

shofukan

murraykil wrote: »

k = cé

x has snook it's way into Irish! :pac:

xileafón mar shampla!

Ah yeah, I remember..
So what would be the translation of 母牛辛鋰 (Kao Xin Li)?

murraykil

seanor3 wrote: »

Ah yeah, I remember..
So what would be the translation of 母牛辛鋰 (Kao Xin Li)?

I'm not sure how that sounds!

Kao = Cow? = Cáubh! :pac: Maybe even Bó if you fancy it!

Xin = Zin or Zhin? Xín

Li = Lee or Lie? = Lao (which is the word for a calf (young of cattle)) or Luigh

This is my best guess!

Cáubh Xín Luigh!

Edit: Actually, to make it really bovine, you could go for Bó Xín Lao! That would be a cool name!

al28283

I've always thought the idea of a name being translated was moronic.

JMSE

You may say I'm moron, but I'm not the only one
I hope some day you'll join us
And the world will live as one.

/can't win em all I suppose :pac:

al28283

JMSE wrote: »

You may say I'm moron, but I'm not the only one
I hope some day you'll join us
And the world will live as one.

/can't win em all I suppose :pac:

No, I said the idea of translating a name was moronic.

Moonbeam

My name has no irish translation or equivalent.
Both my daughters names are completely as gaeilge.
If people translated their names to english to use them because it suited them I would be offended.

mcmoustache

A name is a name. If a kid was named Pavel by his parents, then that it his name - not Paul or Pól.

If his parents wanted him to be called Pól, they would have called him that. They didn't. They called him Pavel so that's his name.

As another poster said above, translating names doesn't make any sense. I have a name that I go by and that's my name. It's not an option for people to call me by anything other than my name unless it's an abbreviation or a nickname and only as long as I'm ok with it.

Kash

The idea of translating a child's name for the purpose of roll call is, in my opinion, archaic and insulting to them, their parents and most likely their culture.

It's not very understanding of the Irish culture either, given the fact that the reverse caused so much heartache in the past.

People are given a name - it is theirs, and is part of their identity.
Teachers have no right to change that. I have no issue with a child knowing the roots of their name, and of the equivalent in Irish, French or Zulu, but to manufacture such a name to hold with an archaic tradition is wrong. The times do change.

mcmoustache

Moonbeam wrote: »

My name has no irish translation or equivalent.

It's Ga Gealaigh.

You're welcome :cool:

paddyandy

We simply do not think out potential problems....just went for the expedient when mass immigration was inevitable......simply the irish way.....but if it was an up and coming football match we'd have every possible angle. We dress up in business suits for Footie on TV and no laughing is permitted.Something of great national significance serious discussion is not encouraged and we must be pc all the way.....to where?????????We don't know and do we care?