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Ethics of not helping agressive drivers
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01-10-2011 9:53pm#1
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rebel.ranter wrote: »HAS to be an Octavia! It's always mentioned on here!
As for the point of not letting him in, ask yourself this: 1) Would you really wish harm on another human being? 2) Even if you have no regard for a bad driver you surely have regard for the poor innocent that this tool might hit head on?
thats exactly the reason I always slow to let asshat drivers have my spot. well that and the fact that if he the slightest glimmer of intelligence they will know its safer, for them, to sideswipe me than to plough head on into something
also im not a sociopath.
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Personally if I see an agressive driver behind I will drive exactly to the rules of the road, so as not to give any reason for coming off worse in court, when I phone up the garda hotline to report said car.
I will *always* phone up the hotline if I see a dangerous driver. I've seen plenty of manouvres that are idiotic but possibly a genuine mistake. If I see the same car make a second manouvre that is dodgy I will phone up at that stage as it's obvious there's either incompetence or gross negligence both of which come under either DWDCA or dangerous driving.
I've always found that the follwoup from the gardai has been very good. Generally the question is asked "how would you like this to proceed", and my answer is always to suggest that the garda go and has a chat with the driver and then to make his own judgement on the driver. If the driver is belligerent and non-apologetic, proceed with the court route. If the driver holds up their hands and says, yes, genuine mistake, then fair enough they actually realise their mistake and has had an opportunity to learn from it.
One example was a genuinely dangerous driver that was unable to get past me (and did not show any signal that they was in an emergency situation at all) for about 10 miles on a countryside national primary route, then stormed past me through the start of a ghost island pushing oncoming traffic into the verge. I phoned up, the gardai asked if I would make a statement and go to court. As it turned out that driver had previously been reported for dangerous driving and I was another witness to make the court case more iron-clad. I did go to court, as in my mind hte behaviour before the overtake nad the overtake itself was genuinely an idiot driver. This driver had a previous conviction as it was revelealed at sentencing of dangerous driving with no tax/license/insurance but the judge bought the clemency request and convicted of DWDCA and fined a total of just under €1000. That driver did spend months hiding and lying to the gardai as well which didn't help his case at all.
A different one was the situation where I was last in a line of cars being overtaken by a 1.1 polo driven by two foreign nationals, and the overtake was on the wrong side of a double white line on a long blind over-crest left hand bend. Shortly after this I saw that car overtake another line of traffic on a single white line approaching the brow of a hill. After ringing up and giving the details, the local garda met that car heading the same way a week later, pulled them over, and had a chat with them. The driver readily admitted that yes it was bad driving, but that they were late for prayers (!)
but that it certainly wouldn't happen again. In that case, the garda used his discretion and let them off with a warning, and I couldn't agree more with the garda's decision. The other driver was polite and appeared to show genuine contrition, and now has an awareness that the local garda (who is the garda for the area that this driver was living in) will be keeping an eye out on his driving in the future.
If there's an ass behind me I'll not deviate from my driving in any way. If there's a genuine overtaking possibility I won't get in the way. If there is half a chance and the risk to me is too high I will try to make it obvious in a non-agressive way that there is no space to come in front of me so please don't try. If there's a failed overtake manouvre I will generally just drive my own car and not compound a bad situation by changing my path and speed. I've seen failed overtake ahead of me and having the car that was being overtaken put the anchors on leaving the overtaker outside with nowhere to get back in, leaving me to use up my margin of safety to stop in a hurry before becoming part of an unpleasant situation.
It's a tough one to call though, when you weigh up the risk of having to take avoiding action from an agressive driver (possibly causing you to get out of shape) and entrenching that bullying behaviour in the dangerous driver, or being on the receiving end of a sideswipe. Sometimes there is actually nothing that can be done in a situation and you just become a no-fault victim of an incident caused by an idiot.0 -
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PARKHEAD67 wrote: »Im guessing theres an M in the middle of the cars 3 letter name???
Ami 6 ? :eek:
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Good to hearI was going to write a piece pulling you on a few items but I really couldn't be bothered. If you had issues with my post, I'd prefer to hear it in a PM, and I'll try to give my defence or explanation why. No point in going off-topic in this thread too much. (I will leave my driving record of no involvement in any accidents in ~18 years, and no points on my license, and a distance driven in Ireland of nearly 400,000 miles in that time speak for itself though.)
However, with regard to:
Did the car really need two people to drive it? Was it a learner car or what?
As for their nationality, what has that got to do with anything? How did you know what nationality both of them were?
More than one occupant - it increases the likelihood that the bad driving could be a peer pressure issue when it's two young guys. In this case I had a hard time guaging age with the wearing of a full beard and and a taqiyah by each occupant. Just something I observed about that car at that time, I really didn't think that the presence of a passenger made that much difference to whether the driving behaviour was worth reporting or not, the consistent overtaking in very dangerous locations was what was worth reporting.
The nationality comes into it when there are different driver education standards between e.g. Turkey or India, and Ireland. We're not great but there are worse - the point is that with some education some drivers will drastically improve, and maybe this chat from the garda was a pointer to get some education.
Is that an acceptable explanation? 0 -
I will leave my driving record of no involvement in any accidents in ~18 years, and no points on my license, and a distance driven in Ireland of nearly 400,000 miles in that time speak for itself though.
If you have a small accident next week, or get a penalty point, will you retire from policing the roads then?The nationality comes into it when there are different driver education standards between e.g. Turkey or India, and Ireland. We're not great but there are worse - the point is that with some education some drivers will drastically improve, and maybe this chat from the garda was a pointer to get some education.
Is that an acceptable explanation?
Im surprised the gardai dont give you your own blue light, and reduce their work load:pac:0 -
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robbie7730 wrote: »If you have a small accident next week, or get a penalty point, will you retire from policing the roads then?
Im surprised the gardai dont give you your own blue light, and reduce their work load:pac:
+1
@Popoutman
It's like reading the diary of a the most innocent perfect driver in the world. Do you log it all in your leather bound notebook ? I'd say AGS will be recruiting again soon enough. Give it a look at, you can get paid for being RobocopMy father (ex army driver) and some of his mates tell great stories of doing cash escorts years ago. Someone would try overtake the whole convoy, go passed the first jeep,then the cash van, then the second jeep and then they'd see the cop car leading the escort and jam on the breaks and drop back behind the escort.
Yup.... and I hammer by them because come hell or high water, that Garda car ain't leaving that convoy !
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Yup.... and I hammer by them because come hell or high water, that Garda car ain't leaving that convoy !
The driver does have access to ANPR and a radio, though. I usually coast by at 5mph above the speed limit* and then floor it once I'm out of sight.
*yes, I am going to hell, wanna come with me?0 -
@mugmugs
No need to be an arse on a Monday morning!
Yup.... and I hammer by them because come hell or high water, that Garda car ain't leaving that convoy !
That's true, but they have these little things called 'radios' which can be used to call ahead to another car in the area to get you intercepted. I've seen this happen with the daily Cork-Limerick cash convoy. Generally a good idea to remember that the next time you 'hammer by'. No point in causing yourself unnecessary hassle by being silly.
I'm far from perfect as a driver, but at least I know what I've to improve on, and taking steps to try to be a better and safer driver. There's no harm in that, is there?0 -
The driver does have access to ANPR and a radio, though. I usually coast by at 5mph above the speed limit* and then floor it once I'm out of sight.
*yes, I am going to hell, wanna come with me?
You'd twig an ANPR on the rear tail generally...@mugmugs
No need to be an arse on a Monday morning!
That's true, but they have these little things called 'radios' which can be used to call ahead to another car in the area to get you intercepted. I've seen this happen with the daily Cork-Limerick cash convoy. Generally a good idea to remember that the next time you 'hammer by'. No point in causing yourself unnecessary hassle by being silly.
I'm far from perfect as a driver, but at least I know what I've to improve on, and taking steps to try to be a better and safer driver. There's no harm in that, is there?
Never said I break the speed limit. That'd be silly and illegal... If the Gardai didn't get me, there's a good chance you could
:pac:0 -
Never said I break the speed limit. That'd be silly and illegal... If the Gardai didn't get me, there's a good chance you could
:pac: I'll try to keep an eye out so! <grin>
Ah, I'm sorry if I come across badly above, I don't mean to and I know I did. I've noticed more and more bad driving over the past few years. I'm a lot more aware of the consequences after coming across a few fatal crashes as one of the first to arrive on the scene. Those were a kick in the arse for me to change my ways before it was me. I think I'm noticing the bad driving due to the average driving in this country improving as well as the infrastructure improving, making the bad driving show up more. It's not as though I'm on first name terms with the hotline, I've phoned twice in 10,000 miles so not so much, and each time it really was warranted.
Sorry for dragging the thread off-topic.0 -
Its a public debate so why would I want to bring it to a private level?Good to hear If you had issues with my post, I'd prefer to hear it in a PM, and I'll try to give my defence or explanation why. No point in going off-topic in this thread too much. (I will leave my driving record of no involvement in any accidents in ~18 years, and no points on my license, and a distance driven in Ireland of nearly 400,000 miles in that time speak for itself though.)
As for your driving record, that's great, well done! I'll order your medal, can you please PM me your address?
Not really.More than one occupant - it increases the likelihood that the bad driving could be a peer pressure issue when it's two young guys. In this case I had a hard time guaging age with the wearing of a full beard and and a taqiyah by each occupant. Just something I observed about that car at that time, I really didn't think that the presence of a passenger made that much difference to whether the driving behaviour was worth reporting or not, the consistent overtaking in very dangerous locations was what was worth reporting.
The nationality comes into it when there are different driver education standards between e.g. Turkey or India, and Ireland. We're not great but there are worse - the point is that with some education some drivers will drastically improve, and maybe this chat from the garda was a pointer to get some education.
Is that an acceptable explanation?
I spent several years training young lads from Pakistan. Many of these guys sat the Irish driving test. They (IIRC) all passed first time and of those who I saw driving, they were quite competent, possibly more so than "Irish" drivers.
As for the lads that you saw, at what point did you see their licence and passport or are you simply making assumptions on their nationality and driver training?
Lastly, you also say "I really didn't think that the presence of a passenger made that much difference to whether the driving behaviour was worth reporting or not" - you did feel that it was worth mentioning here and then followed up with an explanation that this makes the driver more likely to be a bad driver. So why not report it also?
Not usually before it twigged you!You'd twig an ANPR on the rear tail generally...0 -
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On roads like the OP was talking about I let them in. Too dangerous to be messing about at speeds like that.
It's the fúckers in the city that I don't let in. People that go up the left hand turning lane to bypass the queue for going straight/right and try and jump in at the top. I drive along side them not letting them in 0 -
I do apologise - I thought you were wearing your moderator hat and actually had an issue with my post, and that as a mod you could do a private contact instead of hinting publicly without an explanation at your perceived problems with my post. I would have preferred an actual post with your issues stated, instead of having a moderator 'suggest' that there are issues with the post for others to think the worst when there may be a perfectly reasonable explanation of what your perceived issues were.Its a public debate so why would I want to bring it to a private level?
I thought trolling was not allowed here.. Especially by a moderator? I think you might have forgot your sarcasm tags as well.As for your driving record, that's great, well done! I'll order your medal, can you please PM me your address?
As a moderator, can you explain your attitude here? I hope this response of yours was an attempt at humour. However, you appear to be a little bit insulting and can be thought of as attempting to troll me. Was expecting better of a mod to be honest.
Seriously though, this is something that I really do appreciate and I genuinely applaud you for this. I love to see driver education, and to see any driver (foreign, Irish, even Tipperary driversNot really.
I spent several years training young lads from Pakistan. Many of these guys sat the Irish driving test. They (IIRC) all passed first time and of those who I saw driving, they were quite competent, possibly more so than "Irish" drivers.) become less of a hazard to themselves and to others on the road. You have a very valid point that we do need to have more competent (and more-competent) drivers on the roads.
I passed on the appearance to the Gardai if they were to accurately identify the dangerous driver if they managed to intercept them en route. The garda that was actually chatting to them a week later phoned me up to tell me what had transpired, and they were not long in the country and had come from Turkey last year. Yes, I did assume about the driver training, both from personal experience of spending a fortnight in Instanbul working 2 years ago, and the fact that this driver did spend well over a minute on the wrong side of the road with a full line of traffic to his left, I would have thought that this action would have shown a lack of driver training..As for the lads that you saw, at what point did you see their licence and passport or are you simply making assumptions on their nationality and driver training?
The fact that the guy was not an Irish national was of no bearing on the fact that he was driving in a manner that was considered dangerous, both by myself at the time and by the driver himself when he was asked about it a week afterwards.
I reported the facts of the situation, without making judgement on the driver other than I considered the driver to be dangerous at that point. I reported a dangerous driver with a passenger in the car. There's no need to report people with passengers that are driving normally. Maybe I'm missing your point that you tried to make here?Lastly, you also say "I really didn't think that the presence of a passenger made that much difference to whether the driving behaviour was worth reporting or not" - you did feel that it was worth mentioning here and then followed up with an explanation that this makes the driver more likely to be a bad driver. So why not report it also?
Anyway this is seriously off-topic now, I think that if you have issues with me please either start a new thread or PM me and I'll continue the conversation with you if you want.0 -
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