Eu ruling to benefit welfare tourism

beagle001

The Eu ruled on Thursday that the UK was victimising immigrants by restricting them from claiming benefits immiediately upon arrival before working or paying taxes.
It ruled that this was infringing on migrants rights and the UK must change this to allow migrants move freely within the EU and claim benefits without work.
The EU said it was targeting the UK first as they had received a number of complaints from former Soviet countries about the issue and that it would be going after every other country with similar restrictions.
That means they will be able to land in Ireland and claim straight away without contributing.
If this goes through it's curtains for this country it will be a free for all for every sponger in the EU to come here and bleed us dry,were over run with non nationals on the live register,I just cannot understand the EU were all ina debt crisis and they want to keep adding catalysts.

Cookie_Monster

Bad news for us al-right but at least the UK tend to ignore this kind of rubbish from the EU.

beagle001

We should stand up to them on this one,it's bad news for every country with an established economy.
France,Spain and Germany definitely do not want eastern Europeans just landing on the door and expecting handouts.

Manach

While yes, it does seem an odd ruling, one of the pillars of the EU is the free movement of works so the EU would support this.
Thus, I'm guessing in theory, allowing a non-national worker benefits allows them a grace period to get on their so as to better search for work? Given the state of our economy, we ourselves might need to be using that facility for checking opportunities in Warsaw.

beagle001

It's madness,
Why should we pay for other citizens that contribute nothing to our own state.
I hope this ruling does not go through as it would really cripple us,when you have comments from a Polish minister stating the the open border was the best thing that happened to Poland because it got rid of the criminals,unemployable and under educated citizens who flocked to Ireland and the UK it will not take much for every undesirable living in these countries to up sticks and move here with the intent to never work or better themselves.

SafeSurfer

So someone arriving in Ireland will be entitled to claim social welfare straight away while a self employed person working in Ireland and contributing for 10 or 20 years will be entitled to nothing should they find themselves without work. It's not surprising really.

Robbo

Here's the story the OP was referring to which is 95% less alarmist.

The Commission is *warning* the UK it *might* take action unless they rejig their habitual residency test, which is more stringent than ours or the norm across the EU.

The read I have on it, is that we have a habitual residency test which is golden by European standards in that it doesn't discriminate in favour of Irish people, hence returning Irish people have a hard time claiming. The UK system is more lenient towards their own citizens.

There really is no need to go all "Back off Brussels" on this but I have a feeling that's going to become all the more common now that Dana's waving a European Constitution around in the air like Archbishop McQuaid and one of the "dirty books".

headmaster

This is only an issue because our social welfare payments are soooo high.

thebman

Article on this on the economist now:
http://www.economist.com/blogs/bagehot/2011/09/britain-and-eu-2?fsrc=scn/fb/wl/bl/isbrusselsreallyabouttoforcebritain

Yahew

Robbo wrote: »

Here's the story the OP was referring to which is 95% less alarmist.

The Commission is *warning* the UK it *might* take action unless they rejig their habitual residency test, which is more stringent than ours or the norm across the EU.

The read I have on it, is that we have a habitual residency test which is golden by European standards in that it doesn't discriminate in favour of Irish people, hence returning Irish people have a hard time claiming. The UK system is more lenient towards their own citizens.

There really is no need to go all "Back off Brussels" on this but I have a feeling that's going to become all the more common now that Dana's waving a European Constitution around in the air like Archbishop McQuaid and one of the "dirty books".

Why should Ireland not favour it's own citizens, particularly if they have previously worked in Ireland, and contributed?

The EU continues to build it's own funeral pyre.

Pete_Cavan

Yahew wrote: »

Why should Ireland not favour it's own citizens, particularly if they have previously worked in Ireland, and contributed?

The EU continues to build it's own funeral pyre.

The problem is that they have one set of rules for UK citizens and another set of rules for non-UK citizens which discriminates against non-U.K. citizens and therefore contravenes EU law. This is less of a problem here where the rules apply across the board, to Irish and non-Irish citizens alike.

DonalK1981

headmaster wrote: »

This is only an issue because our social welfare payments are soooo high.

You try living on €188 per week in this country. Fine if it was charging Eastern European prices, but it doesn't.

Slydice

DonalK1981 wrote: »

You try living on €188 per week in this country. Fine if it was charging Eastern European prices, but it doesn't.

Sounds like you have experience, can you post an account of what makes it so hard? That could be used in future threads to compare against.

DonalK1981

Slydice wrote: »

Sounds like you have experience, can you post an account of what makes it so hard? That could be used in future threads to compare against.

I detect some sarcasm, but I will entertain you.

I went to college after working for a while, with the legitimate expectation of work when I graduated. The general consensus of the time was of a rosy outlook and decent work prospects ahead. Well when I graduated, after paying my way through college(with the help of some family, savings and a loan to top it up), I am not able to gain employment. I have loans, rent and food to pay for.

Unemployment is at near 15% and there is no chance of gaining employment in the field I studied without experience, Catch 22, so now I am on a fás course to train for something which I hope has some more chance of gaining employment from. My basic €188 per week has to cover rent, loans, food, bills.

I want to work, but I feel loath at the thought of being subject to the waste of the Fianna Fail government of the past 20 years. Welfare payments were increased in line with inflation of the time. Prices are the same.

So to answer the question, the thing that makes it hard to live on 188 euros per week is the cost of living in this country. Hope that makes it a little easier for you to understand.

OMD

DonalK1981 wrote: »

I want to work, but I feel loath at the thought of being subject to the waste of the Fianna Fail government of the past 20 years. Welfare payments were increased in line with inflation of the time. Prices are the same.

Welfare increased much more than the rate of inflation over the past 20 years

carm

DonalK1981 wrote: »

I detect some sarcasm, but I will entertain you.

I went to college after working for a while, with the legitimate expectation of work when I graduated. The general consensus of the time was of a rosy outlook and decent work prospects ahead. Well when I graduated, after paying my way through college(with the help of some family, savings and a loan to top it up), I am not able to gain employment. I have loans, rent and food to pay for.

Unemployment is at near 15% and there is no chance of gaining employment in the field I studied without experience, Catch 22, so now I am on a fás course to train for something which I hope has some more chance of gaining employment from. My basic €188 per week has to cover rent, loans, food, bills.

I want to work, but I feel loath at the thought of being subject to the waste of the Fianna Fail government of the past 20 years. Welfare payments were increased in line with inflation of the time. Prices are the same.

So to answer the question, the thing that makes it hard to live on 188 euros per week is the cost of living in this country. Hope that makes it a little easier for you to understand.

You didn't need to entertain Slydice but I'm interested that you did. Why are you not claiming rent supplements?

I might add - that's if you're lucky enough to be in receipt of €188 per week in this country. There's an assumption out there that that's what every person in Ireland is in receipt of from welfare plus the extras. It's not. Some are living on near thin air.

Slydice, if you'd like a run down, I'd only be happy to inform so you it might help with your suggested future thread comparisons.

headmaster

Slydice wrote: »

Sounds like you have experience, can you post an account of what makes it so hard? That could be used in future threads to compare against.

That's almost €27 per day, hope ya know how flamin lucky you are. I'd hav no probs livin on it, none at all my dear boy.

Yahew

If he is paying rent then he has little to live on. If not ( a subsidy which should really be added to the total welfare payments) - then he is doing ok.

Jaysoose

SafeSurfer wrote: »

So someone arriving in Ireland will be entitled to claim social welfare straight away while a self employed person working in Ireland and contributing for 10 or 20 years will be entitled to nothing should they find themselves without work. It's not surprising really.

HEre we go again every day somebody posts this nonsense, self employed people are entitled to means tested jobseekers allowance. To say they get nothing is factually incorrect.

Slydice

DonalK1981 wrote: »

I detect some sarcasm, but I will entertain you.

I went to college after working for a while, with the legitimate expectation of work when I graduated. The general consensus of the time was of a rosy outlook and decent work prospects ahead. Well when I graduated, after paying my way through college(with the help of some family, savings and a loan to top it up), I am not able to gain employment. I have loans, rent and food to pay for.

Unemployment is at near 15% and there is no chance of gaining employment in the field I studied without experience, Catch 22, so now I am on a fás course to train for something which I hope has some more chance of gaining employment from. My basic €188 per week has to cover rent, loans, food, bills.

I want to work, but I feel loath at the thought of being subject to the waste of the Fianna Fail government of the past 20 years. Welfare payments were increased in line with inflation of the time. Prices are the same.

So to answer the question, the thing that makes it hard to live on 188 euros per week is the cost of living in this country. Hope that makes it a little easier for you to understand.

To be honest, I don't see any more information. I agree that the country has gone downhill and would like to know how hard it is to get by (on the dole obviously) at the moment. I agree with carms following post, it would probably be worthwhile for you looking into rent allowance. There are a lot of posts on it in the state benefits forums here:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=861
(you're not imagining things though, it's not actually in the boards.ie menu which I'm pretty sure the techies are aware of as I'm fairly certain I read a thread on the feedback or development board about it). There may be more benefits that the board could draw your attention to.

Also, maybe you should reconsider what you prioritise in life. If you can't afford basic necessities like food or shelter, then is paying off a loan really a high priority? I doubt any court would put you in jail if you showed how you didn't actually have any money for it.

carm wrote: »

You didn't need to entertain Slydice but I'm interested that you did. Why are you not claiming rent supplements?

I might add - that's if you're lucky enough to be in receipt of €188 per week in this country. There's an assumption out there that that's what every person in Ireland is in receipt of from welfare plus the extras. It's not. Some are living on near thin air.

Slydice, if you'd like a run down, I'd only be happy to inform so you it might help with your suggested future thread comparisons.

carn, I would appreciate seeing such a run down. It'd be good to have some actual experience on the matter being shared rather than relying on my imagination of the decisions someone on €188, €144 or €100 has to make.

carm

Slydice wrote: »

carn, I would appreciate seeing such a run down. It'd be good to have some actual experience on the matter being shared rather than relying on my imagination of the decisions someone on €188, €144 or €100 has to make.

Here's my personal run down, currently living on last drop of savings from redundancy and borrowing from family, now running out:

Personally -
Married to self-employed with a failing business, entitlements for week (currently under review): e24.
One child: e29.80.
Fuel allowance end September-April: e20.
Back to School Allowance: e200 per annum.
Medical Card: Under Review.

That's it. Not entitled to Family Income Support (married to self-employed). Not entitled to Mortgage Interest Supplement (accounts not up to date, currently under review).

carm

Jaysoose wrote: »

HEre we go again every day somebody posts this nonsense, self employed people are entitled to means tested jobseekers allowance. To say they get nothing is factually incorrect.

Correct Jaysoose, self-employed people are entitled to JSA based on a means test. They are not, however, entitled to supplements like Family Income Supplement and would be lucky to qualify for MIS but not impossible if you go begging on one knee.

Apologies OP for going off topic.

SafeSurfer

Jaysoose wrote: »

HEre we go again every day somebody posts this nonsense, self employed people are entitled to means tested jobseekers allowance. To say they get nothing is factually incorrect.

If its means tested how can you describe it as an entitlement?

Slydice

carm wrote: »

Here's my personal run down, currently living on last drop of savings from redundancy and borrowing from family, now running out:

Personally -
Married to self-employed with a failing business, entitlements for week (currently under review): e24.
One child: e29.80.
Fuel allowance end September-April: e20.
Back to School Allowance: e200 per annum.
Medical Card: Under Review.

That's it. Not entitled to Family Income Support (married to self-employed). Not entitled to Mortgage Interest Supplement (accounts not up to date, currently under review).

Thanks for that. Your post kinda backs up the recent RTE Frontline programme view that self employed people get screwed for social welfare payments. I kinda already knew that though. I've never heard or read anywhere about self employed people getting anything but shafted when trying to apply for social welfare payments.

I was more wondering about the full jobseekers rates (€188, €144 or €100) and how they lead to a harsh standard of living.

Jaysoose

SafeSurfer wrote: »

If its means tested how can you describe it as an entitlement?

Are you being obtuse on purpose?

SafeSurfer

Jaysoose wrote: »

Are you being obtuse on purpose?

en·ti·tle·ment

   /ɛnˈtaɪtlmənt/ Show Spelled[en-tahy-tl-muhnt] Show IPA
noun 1. the act of entitling.

2. the state of being entitled.

3. the right to guaranteed benefits under a government program, as Social Security or unemployment compensation

books4sale

DonalK1981 wrote: »

I detect some sarcasm, but I will entertain you.

I went to college after working for a while, with the legitimate expectation of work when I graduated. The general consensus of the time was of a rosy outlook and decent work prospects ahead. Well when I graduated, after paying my way through college(with the help of some family, savings and a loan to top it up), I am not able to gain employment. I have loans, rent and food to pay for.

Unemployment is at near 15% and there is no chance of gaining employment in the field I studied without experience, Catch 22, so now I am on a fás course to train for something which I hope has some more chance of gaining employment from. My basic €188 per week has to cover rent, loans, food, bills.

I want to work, but I feel loath at the thought of being subject to the waste of the Fianna Fail government of the past 20 years. Welfare payments were increased in line with inflation of the time. Prices are the same.

So to answer the question, the thing that makes it hard to live on 188 euros per week is the cost of living in this country. Hope that makes it a little easier for you to understand.

Enough with the sob story. 188 is gererous, I was on dole too for +1 year.

If you were serious about working, you would have left the country by now. Most of us have, some with +10 years experience in our chosen fields.

Dole needs to be cut, put an end this abuse of our country.

sarumite

SafeSurfer wrote: »

en·ti·tle·ment

   /ɛnˈtaɪtlmənt/ Show Spelled[en-tahy-tl-muhnt] Show IPA
noun 1.the act of entitling.

2.the state of being entitled.

3.the right to guaranteed benefits under a government program, as Social Security or unemployment compensation

Selective definitions are as old as vforums imo.

Say I chose the merriam-webster defintion

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/entitlement

It would say an entitlement is "a government program providing benefits to members of a specified group; also : funds supporting or distributed by such a program".

As such, I never trust a persons argument when it is reliant on the exact definition of a word derived from one particular source as chances are I can find another defintion from the a different, but equally reliable, source that counters their argument.

sarumite

books4sale wrote: »

Enough with the sob story. 188 is gererous, I was on dole too for +1 year.

If you were serious about working, you would have left the country by now. Most of us have, some with +10 years experience in our chosen fields.

Dole needs to be cut, put an end this abuse of our country.

As someone on the dole, I can somewhat agree that €188 is generous (however a lot less than I was earning), however in my current position I could do with less however I am using the money I save from the dole to try and find a job elsewhere.

However it would seem a little backhanded by the government to start imposing cuts on dole payments while simultaneoulsy protecting all of their workers from ever having to feel the brunt of those cuts.

Alos, not everyone is in the position to leave the country "by now". To suggest such things is just ignorance, although not as ignorant as suggesting those recieveing €188 from the government are abusing the country.

Boskowski

DonalK1981 wrote: »

...I have loans, rent and food to pay for...

Sorry you might not like this and believe me I do not intend to stick my foot in, I do know everyones story and circumstances are different, but... while you were in college and obviously without regular substancial income, why on earth would you take out loans. As in more than one even?

And secondly how could you keep a straight face complaining about the prices of everything and how you barely manage on €188 when in fact you're servicing loans with this money?

Do you think welfare payments should cover peoples debts?

BKtje

In my opinion, taking out a loan for your education shouldn't be critisized or put in the same boat as a car/house loan (or whatever). The poster finished his/her degree and expected to have work available to them on finishing. Unfortunately there is none.

Now, due to the system he/she has no choice but to pay off the loan with social welfare money. I'm not saying that social welfare should be used for that (and if he/she manages to survive on social welfare and paying off loans then that shows that it really is too high)but that a better system is needed for educational loans, even with "free" fees.

How we got to this from the original topic I don't know but every post regarding social welfare seems to descend to this basic discussion.

Boskowski

guilty as charged, fair enough, bit of a red rag for me, but you're right of course

Jaysoose

SafeSurfer wrote: »

en·ti·tle·ment

   /ɛnˈtaɪtlmənt/ Show Spelled[en-tahy-tl-muhnt] Show IPA
noun 1.the act of entitling.

2.the state of being entitled.

3.the right to guaranteed benefits under a government program, as Social Security or unemployment compensation

You obviously dont like being wrong, they are entitled to "MEANS TESTED JOBSEEKERS" if they dont qualify they get ZERO if they do they get X amount per week. Its fairly ****ing simple to be honest and all the bolloxolgy of posting dictionary definitions of words wont change that fact that you were just plain wrong.

RandolphEsq

To go back to the OP, we are far too lenient here in Ireland. Look at all the foreign single mothers who are here claiming hundreds of euro in allowances each week. They do not need to work, so why should they? It's ludicrous!

paul71

RandolphEsq wrote: »

To go back to the OP, we are far too lenient here in Ireland. Look at all the foreign single mothers who are here claiming hundreds of euro in allowances each week. They do not need to work, so why should they? It's ludicrous!

Foreign single mothers? Ok, this is a new one on here to me.

Would you care to expand on this, what is your objection?

Do you object to the single mother allowance or do you object to the habitual residence rule not being strong enough?

Which nationalities do you object to accessing Irish social welfare, is it the largest non-national community in Ireland, the British?

fliball123

DonalK1981 wrote: »

I detect some sarcasm, but I will entertain you.

I went to college after working for a while, with the legitimate expectation of work when I graduated. The general consensus of the time was of a rosy outlook and decent work prospects ahead. Well when I graduated, after paying my way through college(with the help of some family, savings and a loan to top it up), I am not able to gain employment. I have loans, rent and food to pay for.

Unemployment is at near 15% and there is no chance of gaining employment in the field I studied without experience, Catch 22, so now I am on a fás course to train for something which I hope has some more chance of gaining employment from. My basic €188 per week has to cover rent, loans, food, bills.

I want to work, but I feel loath at the thought of being subject to the waste of the Fianna Fail government of the past 20 years. Welfare payments were increased in line with inflation of the time. Prices are the same.

So to answer the question, the thing that makes it hard to live on 188 euros per week is the cost of living in this country. Hope that makes it a little easier for you to understand.

Sorry your argument fails on 2 points 1 the dole increase by much more than inflation over the last decade...and we are no longer in a period of inflation...We are being deflated the fcuk and as such social welfare needs to be cut

fliball123

sarumite wrote: »

As someone on the dole, I can somewhat agree that €188 is generous (however a lot less than I was earning), however in my current position I could do with less however I am using the money I save from the dole to try and find a job elsewhere.

However it would seem a little backhanded by the government to start imposing cuts on dole payments while simultaneoulsy protecting all of their workers from ever having to feel the brunt of those cuts.

Alos, not everyone is in the position to leave the country "by now". To suggest such things is just ignorance, although not as ignorant as suggesting those recieveing €188 from the government are abusing the country.

A little backhanded you do realise that since the dole queue has being going up in the last 4 odd years the effective rate of tax paid by the so called protected workers went from 46 to 59% so we are paying nearly 3 fifths of what we break our b0ll0x for and will be paying more in property tax, toll roads and more income tax and we are protected?? really?...Will ever get off what ever dole queue you are on as there must a gas leak under it cause your either stoned or very very deluded.

DonalK1981

Boskowski wrote: »

Sorry you might not like this and believe me I do not intend to stick my foot in, I do know everyones story and circumstances are different, but... while you were in college and obviously without regular substancial income, why on earth would you take out loans. As in more than one even?

And secondly how could you keep a straight face complaining about the prices of everything and how you barely manage on €188 when in fact you're servicing loans with this money?

Do you think welfare payments should cover peoples debts?

Loans, for year one and year two of college fees. I never once complained about not being able to afford anything. I get on with it. I pay for what I need to pay for, food, bills, rent and loans. I am only pointing out that the welfare payments are not as overinflated as some might believe.

Secondly my debt is my debt, if I stopped paying the creditors could be within their rights to secure part of my welfare, through court proceedings, to service the debt.

fliball123

DonalK1981 wrote: »

Loans, for year one and year two of college fees. I never once complained about not being able to afford anything. I get on with it. I pay for what I need to pay for, food, bills, rent and loans. I am only pointing out that the welfare payments are not as overinflated as some might believe.

Secondly my debt is my debt, if I stopped paying the creditors could be within their rights to secure part of my welfare, through court proceedings, to service the debt.

sorry to be a bit harsh here Donal but shouldnt you have saved and got your money up front for college.....I mean I dont feel it right that because you felt you had to go to college you got your loans and now that there is no work you feel we should keep the dole as high as it is...Sorry to burst your bubble but we are all feeling the pain and as a poster already pointed out if you were in any serious about getting a job you would have left these shores after 6months to a year of no work..Sorry those are the times we live in ..No one in this country should have any sense of entitlement while we are at the behest of the IMF

DonalK1981

fliball123 wrote: »

Sorry your argument fails on 2 points 1 the dole increase by much more than inflation over the last decade...and we are no longer in a period of inflation...We are being deflated the fcuk and as such social welfare needs to be cut

Right a house cost IR£20000 in say 1984 when the dole was about £25-£35, the same house today costs say €250000 when the dole is €188. I know these are extreme years or highest ratio increases, but it illustrates my point. I don't recall many increases in the dole over the past decade either. The main change in the welfare was the implementation of stepped rates, i.e. €100, €144 and €188 basic payments depending on age. Another was the cessation of the extra week pay at Christmas.

My viewpoint, as a welfare receipient, of course would not like to see any cuts. I've been wondering for years why the dole does not give work to able bodied men and women for say 20 hours a week to earn the money they get. Cutting hedges, general community involvement.

Child benefit, and the career choice of being a single mother is wrong. How can people be allowed to get paid to churn out kids? The whole paying for kids that are not resident actually beggers belief. Surely custody of the children should be a pre-requisite of the payment being made. Do unfit mothers, by that logic, still get child benefit when the child is a ward of court?

fliball123

DonalK1981 wrote: »

Right a house cost IR£20000 in say 1984 when the dole was about £25-£35, the same house today costs say €250000 when the dole is €188. I know these are extreme years or highest ratio increases, but it illustrates my point. I don't recall many increases in the dole over the past decade either. The main change in the welfare was the implementation of stepped rates, i.e. €100, €144 and €188 basic payments depending on age. Another was the cessation of the extra week pay at Christmas.

My viewpoint, as a welfare receipient, of course would not like to see any cuts. I've been wondering for years why the dole does not give work to able bodied men and women for say 20 hours a week to earn the money they get. Cutting hedges, general community involvement.

Child benefit, and the career choice of being a single mother is wrong. How can people be allowed to get paid to churn out kids? The whole paying for kids that are not resident actually beggers belief. Surely custody of the children should be a pre-requisite of the payment being made. Do unfit mothers, by that logic, still get child benefit when the child is a ward of court?

Right were to start look first off I wish no misery on anyone but we are under the cosh..as I have pointed out the working man is paying 3/5 of what they earn in tax to look after those on the dole along with public sector ..this will be increased again...We cannot afford 188 when the minimum wage is what about 8 quid at present 8 x 40 is 320 take out taxes and cost of transport, lunches etc and your down to Id say 250 ...sure why would you bother for 60/70 odd quid a week for busting your hump ...the dole was up at 208 at one stage..I mean come on come on compare to the rest of the EU and you will see a big difference...The cost of living between say the UK and Ireland is not that big yet whats the difference in dole?

DonalK1981

fliball123 wrote: »

sorry to be a bit harsh here Donal but shouldnt you have saved and got your money up front for college.....I mean I dont feel it right that because you felt you had to go to college you got your loans and now that there is no work you feel we should keep the dole as high as it is...Sorry to burst your bubble but we are all feeling the pain and as a poster already pointed out if you were in any serious about getting a job you would have left these shores after 6months to a year of no work..Sorry those are the times we live in ..No one in this country should have any sense of entitlement while we are at the behest of the IMF

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

I could never have afforded college from savings alone. I did put what I had towards it. As for me, I'd appriciate you not commenting on my personal circumstances again. I don't comment on you, or yours. This is a general discussion thread.

I am serious about getting a job in Ireland. I am actively seeking employment, and the sense of entitlement I have is the same as the next man or woman's. I am entitled to my rights under the law of the land, and the Constitution, including the Social Welfare Act.

There is room for change, but not much room for change on the basic rate. I am not a blow in from abroad, feeding non resident kids, spending Irish tax money in other countries. That is what the OP is asking about in this thread, IMO.

fliball123

DonalK1981 wrote: »

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

I could never have afforded college from savings alone. I did put what I had towards it. As for me, I'd appriciate you not commenting on my personal circumstances again. I don't comment on you, or yours. This is a general discussion thread.

I am serious about getting a job in Ireland. I am actively seeking employment, and the sense of entitlement I have is the same as the next man or woman's. I am entitled to my rights under the law of the land, and the Constitution, including the Social Welfare Act.

There is room for change, but not much room for change on the basic rate. I am not a blow in from abroad, feeding non resident kids, spending Irish tax money in other countries. That is what the OP is asking about in this thread, IMO.

You were the one who made it personal by posting if you dont want stuff said about your personal circumstance do not bring them into play in the first place...and my statement about emigration is not just yourself but for everyone including myself as I am seriously considering leaving Ireland as with the next budget I may be paying out more than I am taking in.

As for your entitlement...So be it yes you are entitled to it...But we as tax payers are also entitled to say there is too much being paid on social welfare. The fact is that if you did not have your college loans you would not be in the predicament...And as I already said Why should we continue to pay high welfare because people made decisions such as yours and go to college or to that girl who decided to have 3 kids for 3 different fathers...Why should I be shelling this money out for people who made decisions and did things that they obviously could not afford..Same goes with people buying houses...The level of the sense of entitlement baffles me...you should be entitled to shelter and food full stop.

sarumite

fliball123 wrote: »

A little backhanded you do realise that since the dole queue has being going up in the last 4 odd years the effective rate of tax paid by the so called protected workers went from 46 to 59% so we are paying nearly 3 fifths of what we break our b0ll0x for and will be paying more in property tax, toll roads and more income tax and we are protected?? really?...Will ever get off what ever dole queue you are on as there must a gas leak under it cause your either stoned or very very deluded.

Firstly, I would gladly pay more tax on my old income, than no tax on my current income (I will still pay property tax, though admittedly I cannot afford to run a car so I am spared the problems of tolls ). Secondly, if you can show me a full time employee of the government that would feel the pinch from a decrease in the dole, then please do so...otherwise I stand by what I said.

OMD

DonalK1981 wrote: »

Right a house cost IR£20000 in say 1984 when the dole was about £25-£35, the same house today costs say €250000 when the dole is €188.

Not sure what house price has to do with welfare? Using that logic house prices have fallen 50% in last 4 years so welfare should be cut by 50%?

Reality is we use inflation to measure these things not house prices. Dole has increased way above inflation in last 20 years.

fliball123

sarumite wrote: »

Firstly, I would gladly pay more tax on my old income, than no tax on my current income (I will still pay property tax, though admittedly I cannot afford to run a car so I am spared the problems of tolls ). Secondly, if you can show me a full time employee of the government that would feel the pinch from a decrease in the dole, then please do so...otherwise I stand by what I said.

Sorry maybe I took you up wrongly...I am not PS are you taking about Public sector employees??

If your on the dole you will not pay property tax or water charges ...Noonan has already said this the tax payer will shoulder this one again....Now as for you quote on the full time employee are we not getting a tax increase this december??? even do we are paying nearly 60% of what we earn on tax?? so a cut in of our expenditure means less has to be taken in on tax...its simple maths ..So yes all employees if the dole is left untouched will not just feel a pinch but a solid kick in the nads as more taxes will be needed......

DonalK1981

OMD house prices have not fallen by 50% in all areas. It was used as a guide to illustrate. A can of coke cost 50p in 1995, double that now. That is not the point though.

Again I never complained about the amount of money I receive, I just said that it is not going to buy things like cars designer clothes and the like, which it should not!

I was saying it is just enough to cover the essentials for me, and with that I pay some student loans too. The fact I pay loans back was seized upon, which I must add only amounts to 30 per week. I expect some people were imagining it was much higher. some more personal info to digest if you are interested

OMD

DonalK1981 wrote: »

OMD house prices have not fallen by 50% in all areas. It was used as a guide to illustrate. A can of coke cost 50p in 1995, double that now. That is not the point though.

Again I never complained about the amount of money I receive, I just said that it is not going to buy things like cars designer clothes and the like, which it should not!

I was saying it is just enough to cover the essentials for me, and with that I pay some student loans too. The fact I pay loans back was seized upon, which I must add only amounts to 30 per week. I expect some people were imagining it was much higher. some more personal info to digest if you are interested

You did say the the rate of dole has only gone up with inflation. That is rubbish. Dole has gone up much more than inflation

DonalK1981

OMD wrote: »

You did say the the rate of dole has only gone up with inflation. That is rubbish. Dole has gone up much more than inflation

In line with inflation, not as one with inflation. Rubbish it all you like, but cost of living has gone up, the dole has gone up. The both went up!

Now please show me figures that show me the huge gap between dole increases and compounded inflation over the past 20 years, I can't seem to find the info on the Web.

My main point was and will be;

"My viewpoint, as a welfare receipient, of course would not like to see any cuts. I've been wondering for years why the dole does not give work to able bodied men and women for say 20 hours a week to earn the money they get. Cutting hedges, general community involvement.

Child benefit, and the career choice of being a single mother is wrong. How can people be allowed to get paid to churn out kids? The whole paying for kids that are not resident actually beggers belief. Surely custody of the children should be a pre-requisite of the payment being made. Do unfit mothers, by that logic, still get child benefit when the child is a ward of court?"

Do you want to dwell on the fact that dole payments, while they increased, didn't go exactly with inflation, or do you want to investigate some more of the faults with the whole welfare system?

RandolphEsq

paul71 wrote: »

Foreign single mothers? Ok, this is a new one on here to me.

Would you care to expand on this, what is your objection?

Do you object to the single mother allowance or do you object to the habitual residence rule not being strong enough?

Which nationalities do you object to accessing Irish social welfare, is it the largest non-national community in Ireland, the British?

Well I haven't experienced many British single mothers, but a hefty amount of Greek and Romanian single mothers. So I would object to the habitual residence rule not being strong enough. They need to tighten up the requirement to establish habitual residency.

On a slightly separate issue, it is annoying how a woman can have an irresponsible pregnancy and then gets look after financially by the rest of the people living in the country as a result of this. It's frustrating that my money casually goes to single mothers. And the Connemara mentality of 'have a baby so you can get a house' makes me wonder whether there should be forced abortions.

DonalK1981

RandolphEsq wrote: »

Well I haven't experienced many British single mothers, but a hefty amount of Greek and Romanian single mothers. So I would object to the habitual residence rule not being strong enough. They need to tighten up the requirement to establish habitual residency.

On a slightly separate issue, it is annoying how a woman can have an irresponsible pregnancy and then gets look after financially by the rest of the people living in the country as a result of this. It's frustrating that my money casually goes to single mothers. And the Connemara mentality of 'have a baby so you can get a house' makes me wonder whether there should be forced abortions.

I agree with it all, except the last sentence!