Leap Card - will we see it before end of 2011?

mydiscworld

The Leap Card, Dublin's integrated ticketing system for those who hadn't heard it's official name, was due by September 2011.

I hear it is now having further testing. Will we see it by end of 2011?

I'm thinking for example of the tax saver annual ticket holders for 2012.

Or will they not really be affected? I think the initial Leap Card rollout is Dublin Bus & Luas. One can already get an annual dublin bus & luas card.

foggy_lad

Not before Christmas 2016 I say, and it will probably have a name change as well as a complete overhaul and replacement of the technology used.

Victor

sitstill

Victor wrote: »

Is that a Luas ticket machine?

holidaygirl

Apparently it will be launched this Autumn, and will initially cover Iarnrod Eireann, Luas & Dublin Bus with Bus Eireann & private coach operators to follow (All within the Dublin area)

Is that Leap as in to jump or Leap as in the town in West Cork?

monument

sitstill wrote: »

Is that a Luas ticket machine?

Yes.

Victor

Dónal wrote: »

Is that Leap as in to jump or Leap as in the town in West Cork?

I think 'hop' might be more appropriate.

AngryLips

what a crappy logo

Le King

holidaygirl wrote: »

Apparently it will be launched this Autumn, and will initially cover Iarnrod Eireann, Luas & Dublin Bus with Bus Eireann & private coach operators to follow (All within the Dublin area)

Initial launch will include one private bus operator which serves as far as Portlaoise. It will still be a few months away and I don't expect anything before Xmas.

Posy

Can't wait for this. My busfare means that if I got a weekly Dublin Bus ticket I'd be losing out on about €3 a week so I always have to have loads of change with me which is irritating to say the least!
I want a card!!

shannon_tek

Why does it sound like that toy from vtech.
could they have not chosen a better avatar like a dog or antelope or grasshopper.

mydiscworld

Victor wrote: »

I think 'hop' might be more appropriate.

I believe Auckland's integrated ticket is called the HOP card!

LXFlyer

HOP to me would have made more sense given that we already have the Short, Medium, Long and Giant Hop range of tickets but I imagine that the powers that be want to make a break with the past with the new card.

robd

mydiscworld wrote: »

The Leap Card, Dublin's integrated ticketing system for those who hadn't heard it's official name, was due by September 2011.

I hear it is now having further testing. Will we see it by end of 2011?

I'm thinking for example of the tax saver annual ticket holders for 2012.

Or will they not really be affected? I think the initial Leap Card rollout is Dublin Bus & Luas. One can already get an annual dublin bus & luas card.

I have a test card. Worked on the Luas for first month. Has just started to work on Dublin Bus routes from 1 of the bus garages. It will roll out to other garages garage by garage. Then it will roll out to Dart.

It seems to work very well. No problems at all.

AFAIK, LEAP is initially only an epurse solution. It should replace individual tickers under taxsaver scheme within time but I don't think that's in the initial plan.

I'd certainly expect epurse functionality LEAP card by start of 2012.

bk

robd wrote: »

I have a test card. Worked on the Luas for first month. Has just started to work on Dublin Bus routes from 1 of the bus garages. It will roll out to other garages garage by garage. Then it will roll out to Dart.

How do tickets work on the bus?

Is it the same as cash and you have to talk to the driver?

Or is it a fixed fee?

Stevek101

On launch it'll be a fixed fee. Word has it DB will pretty much entirely switch to flat fare by Christmas.

bk

Stevek101 wrote: »

On launch it'll be a fixed fee. Word has it DB will pretty much entirely switch to flat fare by Christmas.

That would be wonderful (if controversial) news if true.

I say controversial as I assume the fixed fee will be set at something like €2, which will mean a big price increase for some people, while a price decrease for others.

I say €2 as the Travel 90 is €1.90, which indicates roughly what DB thinks a flat fare should be.

I hope DB set it at something like €1.80 by card, €2.50 by cash.

While this maybe controversial, I think it is vital in order to make dublin bus easier to use and faster (less dwell time).

robd

bk wrote: »

How do tickets work on the bus?

Is it the same as cash and you have to talk to the driver?

Or is it a fixed fee?

For test purposes it supports both.

If you go to driver you state fare as normal, place card on reader on top of ticket machine and that's it. You don't get a paper ticket, ticket is held on card. Cash amount is debited from card. No discount.

Other way is to tag on at reader on right hand side of door. This is a 2.20 standard fare. There's no tag off. Obviously this is dearer than most fares.

On launch it'll be a fixed fee. Word has it DB will pretty much entirely switch to flat fare by Christmas.

That's very interesting. Would obviously require agreement with Minister for Transport. The 2.20 fare on test card suggests to me that that will be the standard fare, otherwise 2.00 would have been much handier for test. Very substantial increase for a lot of people. However given taxsaver tickets there's no excuse really. Change for direction from last government though.

mydiscworld

robd wrote: »

For test purposes it supports both.

If you go to driver you state fare as normal, place card on reader on top of ticket machine and that's it. You don't get a paper ticket, ticket is held on card. Cash amount is debited from card. No discount.

I don't mind not getting a discount. But having to tell driver fare price you'd like & then tag on is just a waste of time. Whole idea is hop on quickly.

A fixed fair would allow this. €2 is a bit steep though.

robd wrote: »

Other way is to tag on at reader on right hand side of door. This is a 2.20 standard fare. There's no tag off. Obviously this is dearer than most fares.

This is how it should work. Tag off wouldn't work well, especially on packed buses.

€2.20 is too much for a flat fee, like I stated above. €2 max.

I'd prefer the €1.85 fare most pay currently. Or people would understand €1.90 as a new year in the past usually meant a 5 cent fare hike

robd

mydiscworld wrote: »

I don't mind not getting a discount. But having to tell driver fare price you'd like & then tag on is just a waste of time. Whole idea is hop on quickly.

A fixed fair would allow this. €2 is a bit steep though.



This is how it should work. Tag off wouldn't work well, especially on packed buses.

€2.20 is too much for a flat fee, like I stated above. €2 max.

I'd prefer the €1.85 fare most pay currently. Or people would understand €1.90 as a new year in the past usually meant a 5 cent fare hike

I don't dictate policy. I'm only testing the card. I think the telling the driver thing is only for test though. It sounds stupid to me too.

If you look at what government is taking away from Dublin Bus next year a heavty increase in fares is inevitable. It's already been flagged. No chance of only a 5c increase. €1.85 + 20% is actually €2.22 hence if I was a betting man I'd bet €2.20. I believe LEAP will offer a discount on this though.

bk

robd wrote: »

For test purposes it supports both.

If you go to driver you state fare as normal, place card on reader on top of ticket machine and that's it. You don't get a paper ticket, ticket is held on card. Cash amount is debited from card. No discount.

Other way is to tag on at reader on right hand side of door. This is a 2.20 standard fare. There's no tag off. Obviously this is dearer than most fares.

If this is what is rolled out, then Leap will be a complete failure!!

At worst, tagging on should give you a travel 90 at €1.90, not 2.20.

After all why would you pay 2.20 when you could just as easily load a travel 90 on your card?

Also if the allow the option to get a cheaper fare by talking to the driver, then guess what, the majority of people will talk to the driver, thus getting my 1.65 fare and thus destroying the value of a contact less ticket in reducing dwell times.

I really hope this is just for testing purposes and will be changed radically.

BTW 2.20 would be way to high for a single fare structure. That would almost be a doubling in price from the €1.20 fare!!

While there will need to be some pain to introduce a standard single fare and the result of reduced subsidies, but this would be going way to far and would lead to almost riots on the streets.

With such a fare increase DB would likely see a massive drop in usage.

A single fare around €1.80 card, 2.50 cash would be about right.

Geuze

I have several questions about the planned Leap smartcard.


BUS or TRAM only journeys

Will it be a flat fare like London (1.30stg) or can the card cope with stages / zones?

If flat fare, I assume this means you only tag-on.

The current Luas smartcard can cope with zones, but this of course means you must tag off as well.

In London the flat cash fare is 2.20 stg, so the smartcard fare is 60% of the cash fare.

MULTI-MODE journeys

Say you get a tram, and then a bus.

In most countries, this is one journey, so one fare (not in London?)

Will you be charged one fare or two???

DAY-ticket (price-capping)

In London there is a price cap at 4.00stg for bus and tram journeys. That's about 5 euro.

Will there be a daily price cap in Dublin?

Geuze

I don't think a flat fare on the buses is fair, as some journeys are long, e.g. 66 to Maynooth, so they should pay more.

Here's a proposal.

Zone A = inside canals

Zone B = canals to M50

Zone C = outside M50

Maybe a zone D for far suburbs.

However, I accept that different bus fares means a requirement to tag off, which can cause problems.

LXFlyer

The straightforward answer to all of these questions is that no one knows yet.

No official announcement has been made as to how the card will work (other than what is posted here) and what the fare structure will be.

Anything posted here (apart from the test info - which is just that - testing the functionality of the software) is pure speculation and conjecture.

Geuze

If they do go for a flat fare, then there should be a large discount for smartcard.

Like 1.50 card - 3.00 cash

mydiscworld

Geuze wrote: »

I have several questions about the planned Leap smartcard.


BUS or TRAM only journeys

Will it be a flat fare like London (1.30stg) or can the card cope with stages / zones?

If flat fare, I assume this means you only tag-on.

The current Luas smartcard can cope with zones, but this of course means you must tag off as well.

In London the flat cash fare is 2.20 stg, so the smartcard fare is 60% of the cash fare.

MULTI-MODE journeys

Say you get a tram, and then a bus.

In most countries, this is one journey, so one fare (not in London?)

Will you be charged one fare or two???

DAY-ticket (price-capping)

In London there is a price cap at 4.00stg for bus and tram journeys. That's about 5 euro.

Will there be a daily price cap in Dublin?

For Luas & Dart, I'd assume you tag on & off with your Leap card, like the normal reusable cards you can get. It charges your journey based from stop to stop.

Dublin bus is the only one which won't have a tag off. Flat fare therefore seems likely. Price is key decision. Discount required to incentivise use of the Leap Card over cash/other card types.

For multi mode, I'd say it's pay each time.

For day price cap, it being Ireland, there may not be one, but I'm open to correction.

mydiscworld

Geuze wrote: »

I don't think a flat fare on the buses is fair, as some journeys are long, e.g. 66 to Maynooth, so they should pay more.

Here's a proposal.

Zone A = inside canals

Zone B = canals to M50

Zone C = outside M50

Maybe a zone D for far suburbs.

However, I accept that different bus fares means a requirement to tag off, which can cause problems.

Tag off is far too much hassle on a bus, both for presengers & Dublin Bus.

Technology required to work out how many stops/zones you'd have gone from starting point, etc.

Stevek101

Customers will simply touch their card to a reader at the gate or point of entry and exit (entry only on bus)

Reusable – the card can be topped-up with travel credit (or period tickets in the future)

Future Developments
Transfer Rebates
Ticket products such as annual and monthly passes
Cards specifically for Students and Scholars

http://www.transportforireland.ie/integrated-ticketing-scheme

Answers a lot of peoples questions. The product we will getting will have a lot of capability but most of it will not be implemented initially. What products that are on offer will be left up to the respective companies.

A flat fare has been discussed before. Dublin Bus previously requested to move to a flat fare structure but this request was declined. However, the NTA have taken a different approach and feel that the best way to attract customers is to offer a much more simplistic fare structure. The Leap Card will offer users a discounted flat fare.

Leo Varadkar has warned that fares are going to have to increase significantly...

Leo Varadkar wrote:

He added that cash fares will increase “a good bit” to encourage people to switch to an integrated ticket, which the Minister expects to be available in 2012.

www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0926/1224304755339.html

mydiscworld

Good links Stevek101.

That answered the Dublin Bus question: Tag on only.

Also says you get a Discount using Leap Card vs the cash fare.

In my opinion this leaves 2 options:

1. Flat fares for both Leap Card & Cash.

Fares will increase a "good bit" per Varadkar to incentivise using cards. With subvention to CIE down 20% in next few years, I wouldn't be surprised by a €2.20 flat cash fare v €2.00 Leap Card.

2. No flat fare but all fares go up 20% (to counteract reduction of subvention from Govt to CIE)

So for example, the €1.85 fare is now €2.20, etc. for cash fares.

Leap Card users get a discount on cash fare, so the €2.20 cash fare equates to say €2 for a leap card.

Leap card user tells driver amount he wants (€2 fare), then scans card
(Per robd, telling the driver which fare you need is currently an option during testing)


This option is poor for leap card. Whole idea is no driver interaction to speed up boarding times.


I reckon Option 1 is most likely. Certainly better of the 2 options. Of course, this is just speculation.

Biggest problem for Dulbin Bus is if tey bring in the flat cash fare. How much can they charge that won't annoy customers enough to take to the streets (to walk or protest) or to their bikes?

robd

bk wrote: »

If this is what is rolled out, then Leap will be a complete failure!!

At worst, tagging on should give you a travel 90 at €1.90, not 2.20.

After all why would you pay 2.20 when you could just as easily load a travel 90 on your card?

Also if the allow the option to get a cheaper fare by talking to the driver, then guess what, the majority of people will talk to the driver, thus getting my 1.65 fare and thus destroying the value of a contact less ticket in reducing dwell times.

I really hope this is just for testing purposes and will be changed radically.

BTW 2.20 would be way to high for a single fare structure. That would almost be a doubling in price from the €1.20 fare!!

While there will need to be some pain to introduce a standard single fare and the result of reduced subsidies, but this would be going way to far and would lead to almost riots on the streets.

With such a fare increase DB would likely see a massive drop in usage.

A single fare around €1.80 card, 2.50 cash would be about right.

As I've continually stated AFAIK this is only for test. It will be release with a standard fare.

How many people are legally using the €1.20 fare? That's 1 -3 stages. Realistically it would healthier for their heart to walk.

There has been ZERO in terms of riots for the austerity measures, IMF taking over the country etc. This is pretty low on the radar IMO. Besides anyone who would riot has a free pass anyway.

I'm purely speculating. It seems strange to choose €2.20 as a test fare without a meaning down the line.

As per post above Leo has indicated a significant increase in fares. That to me means 20% increase in line with other things such as Electricity which was 15%. I wouldn't be surprised if he allows Dublin Bus to introduce a flat fare structure while they're at it, this government are all for making their mark on things. They're very much in favour of not being Zanu-FF.

bk

robd wrote: »

There has been ZERO in terms of riots for the austerity measures, IMF taking over the country etc. This is pretty low on the radar IMO. Besides anyone who would riot has a free pass anyway.

Obviously I wasn't being serious about actual riots!! But if DB push the price up too much, then it will just lead to people taking the bus much less often, cycling, driving, etc.

It may also lead to a big increase in fraudulent travel, colored bits of card, asking for the cheaper fare * etc.

DB have to be very careful in how much they increase their prices by. Just because their subsidy is cut by 20% doesn't mean they should automatically increase prices by 20%. It would make more sense to increase prices by 10% while reducing their own costs by 10%.

If you push up prices too fast, you could end up losing lots of customers, while having the same costs and end up with less revenue then they currently have!!

* If they are going to push up prices a lot, then this might be the perfect time to introduce a flat fare as it gets rid of the problem of people asking for 1.25 ticket on 1.85 journeys.

In the long term smart cards could also at least partly fix the coloured piece of card problem.

starviewadams

Jaysus,I pay a €2.30 cash fare now,if the leap card reduced it to €1.85 I'd jump at it!

LXFlyer

starviewadams wrote: »

Jaysus,I pay a €2.30 cash fare now,if the leap card reduced it to €1.85 I'd jump at it!

Why are you paying €2.30 when there is already available a 10 journey Travel 90 ticket valid for 15-18 months for €19, meaning each journey would only cost you €1.90?

L1011

Geuze wrote: »

I don't think a flat fare on the buses is fair, as some journeys are long, e.g. 66 to Maynooth, so they should pay more.

66 is only "long" due to brutal overall speeds due to serving Lucan Village, Chapeliziod, etc where the vast majority of traffic using those stops would be served by their 'own' for want a better word routes.

The 66 should use the DC until Leixlip, and then it wouldn't be long by any stretch of the imagination. Same or less distance as any cross-city.

AngryLips

Anything approaching €2 would be a deterrent to use. Going on the London experience DB can expect a jump in passenger numbers as a result of integrated ticketing and introduction of a flat fare. So, whatever that flat fare is set at, it should take this into account and be reduced accordingly.

AlekSmart

robd wrote: »

As I've continually stated AFAIK this is only for test. It will be release with a standard fare.

How many people are legally using the €1.20 fare? That's 1 -3 stages. Realistically it would healthier for their heart to walk.

There has been ZERO in terms of riots for the austerity measures, IMF taking over the country etc. This is pretty low on the radar IMO. Besides anyone who would riot has a free pass anyway.

I'm purely speculating. It seems strange to choose €2.20 as a test fare without a meaning down the line.

As per post above Leo has indicated a significant increase in fares. That to me means 20% increase in line with other things such as Electricity which was 15%. I wouldn't be surprised if he allows Dublin Bus to introduce a flat fare structure while they're at it, this government are all for making their mark on things. They're very much in favour of not being Zanu-FF.

Good post Robd.

From my daily experience the €1.20 is overridden to a significant extent,as much as 50% on some of my journies.

However it's a massive gamble to take in removing the loss-leader fare and hoping that functionality and ease-of-use will be enough of a replacement to maintain ridership.

It is nearly 9 years now since I was first aware of BAC's interest in Smart-Card technology and it's various proposals and scenario's presented to several Departmental demi-Gods for their approval.

The sticking point was (and remains) the projected revenue loss,particularly in the initial phase and the reluctance of the Department to move to a mainland European approach to funding Public Transport.

However,as circumstances have now changed and Governmental will is now more amenable,we now appear to have progress.....at a price.

A generally available €1.20 cash-fare is one of the lowest in any mainstream EU capital city and has become unsustainable in real-terms.

However,I would suggest that €2 is quite realistic as a flat cash fare within the old (City-Zone),with a smart LEAP fare of €1.80.

However,it MUST be accompanied by a significant reduction in Dwell-Time and associated efficiency improvements as a direct result.

However,as Robd points out,the real problem,going forward,is what will happen when the DSP Free Pass moves to Smart technology.

Currently BAC's acceptance of any and all pieces of coloured cardboard at face value is allowing many people to maintain a commuting lifestyle at no cost.

With so much improper DSP Free Pass use ongoing,it is going to be a very interesting excercise indeed attempting to move many of these folks to paying for a Public Transport journey in the same manner as they pay for Mobile Phone Credit,Alcohol,Cigarettes,Jewellery or other substances.

Currently,The DSP maintain a stoic silence and equal lack of activity into monitoring the entire Free Travel scheme,but as with other areas of Social Welfare spending,it cannot remain immune for much longer.

Interesting times ahead Cap'n !!!

starviewadams

lxflyer wrote: »

Why are you paying €2.30 when there is already available a 10 journey Travel 90 ticket valid for 15-18 months for €19, meaning each journey would only cost you €1.90?

Do they not have to be used within 90 minutes though?wouldn't be much use for work then like.

LXFlyer

starviewadams wrote: »

Do they not have to be used within 90 minutes though?wouldn't be much use for work then like.

I'm struggling to follow your logic?

You have unlimited travel for 90 minutes provided the last journey starts within 90 minutes of the first. It does not matter how long that journey takes - just as long as it starts within 90 minutes of the first.

If you're using only one bus the length of the single journey is irrelevant. The ticket remains valid even if the journey takes longer than 90 minutes.

You can use the ticket on any single journey that is priced at €2.30 or more and save substantial amounts.

penexpers

Just checked TFL site, bus fares there are 2.20 cash and 1.30 with the Oyster card. A similar pricing structure would be good here.

Aard

starviewadams wrote: »

Do they not have to be used within 90 minutes though?wouldn't be much use for work then like.

You get 10 bus journeys for €19. Works out at €1.90 each. That's a 17% discount on what you currently pay.

You beep the card off the reader. You can then travel as much as you like for 90 minutes on any number of busses. That's one 'beep' gone. You then have nine more.

Carawaystick

robd wrote: »

Very substantial increase for a lot of people. However given taxsaver tickets there's no excuse really.

You are assuming a person is a) an employee,
b) their employer bothers to allow them participate
c) and earning enough to be paying tax

So low paid employees or unemployed, former self employed workers should just suck the price hike up.

robd

Carawaystick wrote: »

You are assuming a person is a) an employee,
b) their employer bothers to allow them participate
c) and earning enough to be paying tax

So low paid employees or unemployed, former self employed workers should just suck the price hike up.

To be honest with you, I really couldn't care a less about low paid employees, unemployed, former self employed etc with regard to bus fares. The comment you've elected to highlight is very much a minor sub point of what I wrote.

Its not as if I'm the one in government or transport circles setting the fares anyway.

I've merely given a prediction of what I think might happen.

AngryLips

I was in the Londis on Dame Street this morning and noticed that they had a Leap Card reader installed at the til.

shannon_tek

AngryLips wrote: »

I was in the Londis on Dame Street this morning and noticed that they had a Leap Card reader installed at the til.

Did you inquire about it

markpb

AngryLips wrote: »

I was in the Londis on Dame Street this morning and noticed that they had a Leap Card reader installed at the til.

A few Payzone outlets in the city have been upgraded to perform ITS transactions as part of the private pilot.

pluie

I'm studying in France at the moment and I have a KorriGo card for the city's public transport. It costs me 29,10€ per month for unlimited use on the metro and buses (urban, suburban and night buses). You pay at the beginning on each month and it lasts until the end of each month. You can pay more to use it on the TER (regional trains), Illenoo (regional buses) and Vélo (bikes) services too.

Will the Leap card be like this (pre-paid for unlimited use) or will it be like a credit card where you pay x amount and then it runs out? The latter is quite off-putting, tbh.

markpb

pluie wrote: »

Will the Leap card be like this (pre-paid for unlimited use) or will it be like a credit card where you pay x amount and then it runs out? The latter is quite off-putting, tbh.

The card can hold cash which is debited each time you on a train, tram or bus. It can also hold all the existing pre-paid tickets like daily, weekly, monthly train, tram, bus or combination. It can also do some kind of capping but the full details about that haven't been released yet.

Stevek101

Do they have any idea when it is launching yet?

LXFlyer

Well if it's still being tested I doubt they have a set date yet.

They need to be absolutely sure that all of the software works.

Victor

Stevek101 wrote: »

Do they have any idea when it is launching yet?

The suggestion is this year.