Can you forgive members of the IRA?

ChristianJenny

With Martin McGuinness running for president it got me thinking. I find it difficult to forgive members of the IRA for the atrocities they carried out in the campaign. I know it is part of Christs teachings that forgivness is key so some acts they carried out sends a cold chill down my spine and it makes me think the members of the IRA were inherently evil. One such case was the murder by the IRA in Belfast of Bernard Teggart who was a school boy with special needs and had the mental age of a six year because they felt he was the tout. It made me cry when I read it today, I had never seen it before. I prayed this morning with no recourse on my feelinhs towards the members of the IRA. How do Christian boardies feel about this and how did they get over the ill feeling in stomach about cases like this. I want to forgive so would like feedback please.

PDN

Yes.

I lost some friends who were killed by the Provos and some who were killed by loyalists. And I know former gunmen from both sides who have received God's forgiveness and are living their lives as committed Christians.

ChristianJenny

PDN wrote: »

Yes.

I lost some friends who were killed by the Provos and some who were killed by loyalists. And I know former gunmen from both sides who have received God's forgiveness and are living their lives as committed Christians.

Good to hear. Had they real remorse about their actions?

getz

are you asking for forgiveness for the IRA in northern ireland ? or the IRA gangs still active in the republic ?

homer911

Its a bit academic sitting on the sidelines, but you absolutely have to forgive. Forgiveness is as much to the benefit of the forgiver as the forgivee. I found a great web page that discused the issue of forgiveness - will post it when I relocate it

jmark

Can you forgive if someone hasn't or doesn't ask for forgiveness?

I don't think so. Of course what you do have to do is find a way to deal with the bitterness and resentment, but that is different.

See here for a quiz/answers and book on the subject.

ChristianJenny

getz wrote: »

are you asking for forgiveness for the IRA in northern ireland ? or the IRA gangs still active in the republic ?

Both I suppose. I hope the actions of the past are still not being committed today, but yes the question is do they want to be forgiven themselves. That is the million dollar question!

Marcus Hodgkinson

From the Christian perspective, we are called by God to forgive others. Jesus teaches to love others as He loves us.
Jesus suffered the worst of the worst when he came to the earth.
He was mocked, rejected by those He loves, beaten and killed by those He came to save, yet still He loves us more than we could ever love Him, and paid the ultimate penalty for our sins so that we could be forgiven by God.
It doesn't matter who people are, and what they believe, do or say, we are called to love and forgive them, and live the life Jesus lived as best as we can.
No person is absolutely evil, from the Christian perspective, it is the sin of this world that causes us all to do horrible things.
It may seem impossible, but we need to forgive the IRA members for what they may have done. Its what Jesus has done, we should follow in His footsteps.
If we can't forgive others, how can we expect others people and the world to act any differently?

alex73

Can you forgive members of the IRA? What would Christ say?

Do we really want to open a Door to the painful and divided past? On M McG,,, he certainly has a lot of baggage... Not sure if bringing that baggage to Áras is good.

Forgive.. Yes.. But when I cast my ballet I won't forget and there are others with less baggage who will get my vote.

Marcus Hodgkinson

I'm not doing the whole "forgive or else!" thing! We can't be expected to forgive anyone and everyone just like that. What I am saying is that we should have the mindset of Christ.
I mean, how do you define not forgetting?
However we cannot as Christians say that a person is purely evil. All people can be forgiven, and can be saved. Even members of the IRA. Everyone is equal in the eyes of God.
Yes, we can't be expected to forgive anyone easily.
But we should do our best to love others, in an unconditional way. What I mean by that is that we shouldn't wish damnation on anyone, and pray that everyone will be given the chance to come to know Jesus in their life.

jmark

Marcus - If we are to have the mind of Christ, did he forgive anyone who didnt ask to be forgiven?

We cheapen forgiveness if we think it should be extended to unrepentant people.

alex73

jmark wrote: »

Marcus - If we are to have the mind of Christ, did he forgive anyone who didnt ask to be forgiven?

We cheapen forgiveness if we think it should be extended to unrepentant people.

Ηmmm. Lots of Christians forgive those who tresspass against them... We can forgive those who wronged us even if they don't repent.. Anyway ultimate forgivness is from God..

Marcus Hodgkinson

Jesus didn't literally say to EVERY person "you are forgiven" no. But that was the whole point of Jesus' death on the cross. He took the sins of the world. Jesus has forgiven all people through his death.
But so as not to stray away from the topic, we should forgive others, especially those who havent repentent! Christian people, and our acts are how people see the light of Jesus. So we shouldn't forgive only SOME people and not others.
Its hard yes, but we must love our enemies. And by love I dont mean we have to like them as people.It's the unconditional love of God that the Holy Spirit has planted in our hearts that gives us the strength to forgive and love our enemies.

jmark

Marcus Hodgkinson wrote: »

But that was the whole point of Jesus' death on the cross. He took the sins of the world. Jesus has forgiven all people through his death.

The logical consequence of your statement is that then every person will be forgiven and therefore in Heaven. Scripture makes it clear that this isnt so. It makes it clear that Jesus forgiveness is conditional on repentance and faith.

But so as not to stray away from the topic

I'm trying to get at the theology that underlies the topic - if we get the theology right then we can answer the question with truth and not simply opinion.

we should forgive others, especially those who havent repented!

How? Is it not a little patronising - after all I might not want your forgiveness!

Again I state that forgiveness is a consequence of repentance, and a desire to restore a relationship. Thats what it is in scripture. Thats the basis for Christian forgiveness.

jmark

alex73 wrote: »

Ηmmm. Lots of Christians forgive those who tresspass against them... We can forgive those who wronged us even if they don't repent.. Anyway ultimate forgivness is from God..

Lots of Christians can be wrong!

How can we forgive those who dont want forgiven? I think we need to understand what forgiveness is. There is a difference between dealing with the resentment, bitterness and anger that an incident causes (some may wrongly term this forgiveness) and dealing with the offender.

Biblically, forgiveness is the restoration of a relationship between the parties, not simply one person having felt with their emotion and mental state.

Marcus Hodgkinson

No, I agree with you, it is by faith that we are saved!
But what I'm saying is that Jesus' death on the cross has already taken away our sin, but it is through our acceptance of this, if we confess that Jesus HAS taken our sins, we are saved. This subject should be discussed somewhere else I feel.
And it's most likely we're both taken what we both say the wrong way.
What I'm saying is that the price has already been paid by Jesus, so with this in mind we should have that same mindset, and TRY to forgive others. Because Jesus teaches us to do so.

Marcus Hodgkinson

No, I think you have what i'm saying wrong.
What i'm saying is that Jesus has already done it. It is finished, Jesus has paid the price for our sins.
Therefore we are saved by accepting and confessing this.
I'm sorry I should have made myself clearer friend.

Forgiveness is not about the two parties coming to an agreement! No!
If I cheat on my girlfriend, and she cheats on me also, I can forgive her for her doing it, but that doesnt mean she forgives me!

You can forgive someone who doesnt want your forgiveness. But it would be an odd situation to find yourself in.
Jesus prayed earnestly for a world that rejected and mocked him while he was on the cross.
However it does seem hard to feel like you've forgiven someone if they dont accept it.

Marcus Hodgkinson

Apologies on the two replies, I submitted it by accident!

Im a noob here guys

jmark

which one do I reply to?

Marcus Hodgkinson

second one mate!

jmark

So what you're saying is God holds us to a higher standard than he holds himself?

Can we agree on the following:
God does NOT forgive everyone, otherwise everyone would be in Heaven.
If God forgave everyone, and then some end up in Hell, then they are unjustly punished for sins for which payment has been made.

Regarding Jesus on the cross - note carefully he did not forgive them. He prayed that they would be forgiven - not splitting hairs, its important. If they were repentant he could have forgiven them on the spot. He doesnt. Ask yourself why did God the Son not pronounce their forgiveness?

Forgiveness is not about the two parties coming to an agreement! No!
If I cheat on my girlfriend, and she cheats on me also, I can forgive her for her doing it, but that doesnt mean she forgives me!

If forgiveness is not about the restoration of a relationship, then what does forgiveness achieve?

Marcus Hodgkinson

I couldnt agree with you more!
Sorry this is my first thread so I probably havent made myself clear.
No not everyone is forgiven, but everyone CAN be forgiven if they accept Jesus into their hearts.
Yes he prayed that they WOULD be forgiven, but before I answer that I should reply to your last part.

No forgiveness doesn't have to include both parties. The purpose of, say, me forgiving my girlfriend for cheating on me is so that i'm no longer overwhelmed with anger at her because of it, which can lead to worse situations, but a result of forgiveness can end up with both parties making up or at least having a solid conclusion of some shape or form.
But forgiveness is about us being able to stop feeling angry/etc. for someone.

So what we as Christian need to see is the bigger picture. Our main goal on this life should be to glorify the God we believe in, and a way we should do this is to have a forgiving heart for those who hurt us, and others around us. It may take years or decades to forgive someone, but God will support us through it.
We may never forgive someone, but the point im making is that, as soldiers of Christ , we should strive to love our enemies as much as those closest to us.

jmark

Let me suggest some reading as a basis for discussion:

Forgiveness occurs properly only when certain conditions are met.

There are times when it is wrong to forgive.

Marcus Hodgkinson

I understand the point you're making here.
But when God forgives us He's forgiving us for our sins, and we are saved. I huge deal!!
But when we deal with forgiveness it is on a smaller scale than to God.
God cannot ignore sin, and if God forgave someone He would be wiping them clean of their sin, something that can only happen if they accept Jesus into their lives.
But we dont have the power to do that, nor the authority.
So there is a difference. Although i'm not a expert in this area at all, im way to young for that , but I believe we can forgive anyone, as in, it IS possibe with God's guidance.
If we only forgive certain, none Christian people(as an example), we may be denying those people the experience of seeing the work of God in the lives of those who have accepted Him.
What I'm trying to get across here is that we should always try our best to show as much love, kidness and forgiveness to someone, as to show them much of the Jesus in us as we can.

jmark

Marcus Hodgkinson wrote: »

No forgiveness doesn't have to include both parties.

Defend this biblically.

But forgiveness is about us being able to stop feeling angry/etc. for someone.

No - thats dealing with resentment in your heart, and trusting God's sovereignty and justice - that it will either be dealt with at the cross or on the Day of Judgement

Forgiveness in the bible is different.

a way we should do this is to have a forgiving heart for those who hurt us

I half agree. I trust your heart is in the right place, but your vocabulary isn't!!

I would argue that dealing with resentment, pain, bitterness is what we need to do, and that leaves the way open to offer and grant forgiveness when it is asked for. Call that a forgiving heart if you like, but it is not forgiveness in its self.

As soldiers of Christ , we should strive to love our enemies as much as those closest to us.

Loving enemies doesnt equal forgiveness of unrepentant ones. Im not advocating holding grudges, rather I'm guarding of the idea of repentance and forgiveness which always in the bible go hand in hand.

You can love your enemy without forgiving them. You can 'not forgive someone' without holding a grudge - if you trust God to deal with them, either in grace or in judgment.

jmark

Have a read at this too - just to see the names of top Christian writers who hold to this view too

God bless - need to go for tonight

jmark

What I'm trying to get across here is that we should always try our best to show as much love, kindness and forgiveness to someone, as to show them much of the Jesus in us as we can.

I agree with most of this wholeheartedly, but if we want to show them Jesus they need to know that Jesus doesnt forgive unrepentant people either.

mlumley

I am sorry, no, i am not sorry. How can you forgive people who thought that it was right to tie a person in his van, load it with explosives, and tell the person to drive it to a checkpoint, then set the bomb off killing the driver for no reason at all except just for the love of killing. And not only once was it done. Rot in hell, basatrds, your god will not forgive you for killing inocent people. They now know that the bomb got then nowhere, only talking gets what you want. I, as a British national think that there should be a united Ireland, but only by negotiated means. the rights of both sides need to be addressed. But, get rid of seperation in schools, let the next generation grow up together in peace and harmony. Also, take a leaf out of south Africas book. A peice and reconciliation council needs to be established, that may go someway to heal the wounds. As for a cirtain Presidential candidate, he needs to come clean about his past.

Marcus Hodgkinson

Yet I'm not saying forgiveness in the bible is different.
I'm speaking in context of the question originally asked.
It was whether we should forgive the IRA.
This shows that the question is more personal.
I think what the asker was looking for was more on the lines of.. "Should we be prepared to forgive the IRA if they ask for it". Thats how I was responding to it anyway.
Obviously forgiveness has the ability to go much further than what we do in our hearts first. But when we're dealing with forgiving other people, it starts i our hearts.
An official def. of Forgiveness is to renounce anger towards someone, which is only something we can choose to do.
Yes the act of forgiveness is triggered by the other party asking, but it is up to us to actually DO the forgiving!
You're asking me to defend it Biblically, yet I'm not disagreeing with you.
I already said forgiveness involving God is different.
What we're dealing with is forgiveness from a person to another person, which needs the one person to renounce anger or another negative feeling towards an offensive action of the other party. Therefore the act of forgiveness is triggered by both parties, yet the actually act itself is triggered by the one member

jmark

An official def. of Forgiveness is to renounce anger towards someone, which is only something we can choose to do.

We're on a Christian forum - I was assuming that Christian/biblical definitions applied

Eph 4:32 "Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you."

Forgiveness in the bible is forgiveness whether it is God forgiving or us - there is no difference. Both are identical in their concept.

audi a4 2008

mlumley wrote: »

I am sorry, no, i am not sorry. How can you forgive people who thought that it was right to tie a person in his van, load it with explosives, and tell the person to drive it to a checkpoint, then set the bomb off killing the driver for no reason at all except just for the love of killing. And not only once was it done. Rot in hell, basatrds, your god will not forgive you for killing inocent people. They now know that the bomb got then nowhere, only talking gets what you want. I, as a British national think that there should be a united Ireland, but only by negotiated means. the rights of both sides need to be addressed. But, get rid of seperation in schools, let the next generation grow up together in peace and harmony. Also, take a leaf out of south Africas book. A peice and reconciliation council needs to be established, that may go someway to heal the wounds. As for a cirtain Presidential candidate, he needs to come clean about his past.

martin mcguinness has never hid his past he was second in command in derry.he had that position when the british forces killed 14 civil right protesters on bloody sunday u do remember that do u.
and he would make a fine president.

Marcus Hodgkinson

Haha you've got me there mate!

Yes the love and forgiveness we receive and share with others is from God.
But that doesnt change the fact that there's a big difference between God forgiving someone and us forgiving someone. Because when we're forgiving someone we're renouncing actions that they have caused that are obviously wrong or offensive towards us or others.
Yet God forgives us when we accept Jesus into our hearts, forgiving us for ALL sin, every little and big thing we have done!
Thats not what we as humans forgive for, we dont have the authority to do that, because we ourselves are sinners, we forgive for things that effect us deeply. This forgiveness is so personal that it is a huge step in renouncing anger on someone who has hurt us deeply.
I suppose the forgiveness isnt valid until the person who has hurt us has asked for it, but it is the person themselves who must forgive them.

alex73

audi a4 2008 wrote: »

martin mcguinness has never hid his past he was second in command in derry.he had that position when the british forces killed 14 civil right protesters on bloody sunday u do remember that do u.
and he would make a fine president.

Maybe... as a Christian - of the 7 candidates there are others who would make better Presidents. IRA + His history apart, we moved on with the peace process.... But that does not mean he has to be President.

Yes we can forgive members of IRA... Does not mean they get to occupy the Aras. And Ireland does not need someone with IRA baggage at the moment. Davis or Higgins would be more worthy in My opinion. But les not make this a politics thread.

jmark

But that doesnt change the fact that there's a big difference between God forgiving someone and us forgiving someone.

The difference is one of scale, not of concept.

And the other difference is that when we forgive someone who has repented to us, they also still need to repent towards God.

Anyway, its been fun, but I'm away to bed

Onesimus

ChristianJenny wrote: »

With Martin McGuinness running for president it got me thinking. I find it difficult to forgive members of the IRA for the atrocities they carried out in the campaign. I know it is part of Christs teachings that forgivness is key so some acts they carried out sends a cold chill down my spine and it makes me think the members of the IRA were inherently evil. One such case was the murder by the IRA in Belfast of Bernard Teggart who was a school boy with special needs and had the mental age of a six year because they felt he was the tout. It made me cry when I read it today, I had never seen it before. I prayed this morning with no recourse on my feelinhs towards the members of the IRA. How do Christian boardies feel about this and how did they get over the ill feeling in stomach about cases like this. I want to forgive so would like feedback please.

I'm with whatever Jesus thinks. Why dont you ask him?

Fanny Cradock

I think that the notion of forgiveness -- and I'm talking about loving ones enemies -- has to be amongst the most difficult and counter-intuitive tenets within Christianity. It's scandalous in many respects. Hatred comes so much easier.

Indeed, I know of one person who claims that this command to love those least deserving is amongst a couple of doctrines so difficult that they are kept from considering the truth claims of Christianity. I believe that to be both profoundly stupid and also entirely understandable.

And yet when somebody forgives their enemy -- for example, parents forgiving the murder of their child -- there is something extra-ordinarily in that. It makes you stop and pay attention because it is simultaneously the most outrageous and gracious offer imaginable. I think that such forgiveness must be a type of love.

Onesimus

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I think that the notion of forgiveness -- and I'm talking about loving ones enemies -- has to be amongst the most difficult and counter-intuitive tenets within Christianity. It's scandalous in many respects. Hatred comes so much easier.

Indeed, I know of one person who claims that this command to love those least deserving is amongst a couple of doctrines so difficult that they are kept from considering the truth claims of Christianity. I believe that to be both profoundly stupid and also entirely understandable.

And yet when somebody forgives their enemy -- for example, parents forgiving the murder of their child -- there is something extra-ordinarily in that. It makes you stop and pay attention because it is simultaneously the most outrageous and gracious offer imaginable. I think that such forgiveness must be a type of love.

But isnt calling forgivness a ''difficult'' procedure to make...making it out to be a difficult procedure to make? Therefore creating a barrier to making the act of forgiveness and easy task. Everyone finds it hard to forgive because we are telling them it's difficult to do so, when really it's actually very simple and easy IMO.



Onesimus

Manach

I agree partially with "audi a4 2008", that in some respects part of the IRA were fighting a defensive war against the far superior forces in Derry, and that Martin McGuinness as a leader of his community did what had to been done to fight in what was a dirty war. Personally I believe however that the IRA campaign was unjustified and the only legitimate means of protest/engagement for the oppressed Catholic community was the SDLP or Alliance parties.
It is however not for me to forgive the IRA as I was not in any way harmed or threaten by their actions. Finally, whilst Mr McGuinness would make a good President, given that I'd disagree strongly with his parties policies, I'd not support him for that post.

AG2R

IRA in the North yes, The little factions that have broken off from that no.

Fanny Cradock

Onesimus wrote: »

But isnt calling forgivness a ''difficult'' procedure to make...making it out to be a difficult procedure to make? Therefore creating a barrier to making the act of forgiveness and easy task. Everyone finds it hard to forgive because we are telling them it's difficult to do so, when really it's actually very simple and easy IMO.



Onesimus

Well, all I can say is good for you. I think you must be unique in that.

For my part, if somebody wrongs me -- and I obviously don't believe that moral rights and moral wrongs are illusory -- then I can't help but feel aggrieved precisely because I think that somebody has done an objective wrong to me.

I've got a copy of Even Silence Has An End beside me. Betancourt has been greatly challenged by her Christian faith to forgive her erstwhile captors.

Onesimus

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Well, all I can say is good for you. I think you must be unique in that.

For my part, if somebody wrongs me -- and I obviously don't believe that moral rights and moral wrongs are illusory -- then I can't help but feel aggrieved precisely because I think that somebody has done an objective wrong to me.

I've got a copy of Even Silence Has An End beside me. Betancourt has been greatly challenged by her Christian faith to forgive her erstwhile captors.

But why be aggreived and beat ourselves with this emotion over the head when we can obviously be happy? We are aggreived at a wrong done to us because we were taught to be aggreived by society when someone does a wrong to us. But why punish ourselves with this emotion? Just a thought.

The Quadratic Equation

The usual double standards of the Irish media.

Éamon de Valera, FF/FG etc. and their violent and murderous past = ok
SF / McGuiness = not ok

I can't stand any of them by the way. In general Irish politicians are self serving liars and pimps.

Apart from the odd niave half wit, doomed to fail, honest people do not go into Irish politics.

homer911

I found this helpful:

http://christianity.about.com/od/whatdoesthebiblesay/a/bibleforgivenes.htm

gimmebroadband

Onesimus wrote: »

But why be aggreived and beat ourselves with this emotion over the head when we can obviously be happy? We are aggreived at a wrong done to us because we were taught to be aggreived by society when someone does a wrong to us. But why punish ourselves with this emotion? Just a thought.

I was abused as a child (along with my other siblings by a family member) and I was sexually abused again by a school bully. I have learned to forgive them and I even pray for them (the family member is now deceased). I feel no ill will for what was done to me, and I am able to move on with my life and forget the past. Forgiving someone for wrongs done, actually liberates oneself, you are only punishing yourself more by holding on to bad memories!

dvae

As a Christen i would say yes after all Jesus instructed us to do so when he told us how to pray and what to pray for.

Matthew 6:12
and forgive us our sins, as we have forgiven those who sin against us.

wolfsbane

ChristianJenny wrote: »

With Martin McGuinness running for president it got me thinking. I find it difficult to forgive members of the IRA for the atrocities they carried out in the campaign. I know it is part of Christs teachings that forgivness is key so some acts they carried out sends a cold chill down my spine and it makes me think the members of the IRA were inherently evil. One such case was the murder by the IRA in Belfast of Bernard Teggart who was a school boy with special needs and had the mental age of a six year because they felt he was the tout. It made me cry when I read it today, I had never seen it before. I prayed this morning with no recourse on my feelinhs towards the members of the IRA. How do Christian boardies feel about this and how did they get over the ill feeling in stomach about cases like this. I want to forgive so would like feedback please.

Personal forgiveness of those who repent is a given for the Christian. By God's grace we can extend to them the compassion and mercy God showed us.

Different for those who are not repentant. We may pray for them and not demand they be punished for what they did to us, but is that forgiveness?

For those who have harmed others and continue to present a threat to society, forgiveness without their repentance is to invite further evil. God has appointed the State to avenge such, and that is what we should support.

Where war is involved, most often it is not a one-sided wrong. So we may exercise an appropriate level of forgiveness of both our side and theirs, if both have learned from their mistakes and repented of them.

We may even agree to differ and go our own ways, seeing the complexity of human relationships and a nation's rights and wrongs. We can leave the final judgement to God, who has promised to avenge.

I'll maybe say a bit directly on the Irish situation tomorrow.

******************************************************************
Romans 12:19 Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.

PatricaMcKay2

wolfsbane wrote: »

Personal forgiveness of those who repent is a given for the Christian. By God's grace we can extend to them the compassion and mercy God showed us.

Different for those who are not repentant. We may pray for them and not demand they be punished for what they did to us, but is that forgiveness?

For those who have harmed others and continue to present a threat to society, forgiveness without their repentance is to invite further evil. God has appointed the State to avenge such, and that is what we should support.

As a mother I forgive everything my child does, but I still discipline her, does my disciplining her (giving out, grounding, making her do tasks that ordinarily she wouldnt is what I mean) mean I dont forgive her? We should forgive automatically because we should take the stuff that happens to us as just recompense for our sins, that doesnt mean that we are against to insure order in society. There is nothing I wouldnt forgive my daughter, but I have always taken steps to insure that she turns out the best person she can be.

I have forgiven people lots of things, and Im not sure whether they have repented or not, but I am sure that my unforgiveness was blocking God's Grace. I also remember Christ's words to the Apostles who asked fire to rain down on the Samaritians.

PatricaMcKay2

ChristianJenny wrote: »

With Martin McGuinness running for president it got me thinking. I find it difficult to forgive members of the IRA for the atrocities they carried out in the campaign. I know it is part of Christs teachings that forgivness is key so some acts they carried out sends a cold chill down my spine and it makes me think the members of the IRA were inherently evil. One such case was the murder by the IRA in Belfast of Bernard Teggart who was a school boy with special needs and had the mental age of a six year because they felt he was the tout. It made me cry when I read it today, I had never seen it before. I prayed this morning with no recourse on my feelinhs towards the members of the IRA. How do Christian boardies feel about this and how did they get over the ill feeling in stomach about cases like this. I want to forgive so would like feedback please.

I have forgiven the Loyalists who murdered my SDLP voting relative, I have forgiven the British soldier who pushed his gun into my face when I was 8 or 9 until I urinated and he laughed infront of mother and older brother, I have forgiven the RUC forcing their hand up my mother's vagina, shoving a broom handle up my father's anus, oh yeah I have forgiven the murder of two non political relatives at the hands of death squads supported by sections of the British state, I have forgiven the Garda for beating my cousin into a coma because they suspected him as a nordie of being in the IRA, I have forgiven or am trying to forgive with God's help all the terror, hatred and oppression inflicted on my community and Im just scraping the surface here....And I really dont care whether you forgive us or not. Thats your problem.

I have sat down and talked and laughed and genuinely liked English Conservatives and Ulster Unionists, I dont think either is inherently evil despite everything, but something tells me that you didnt live through the troubles, you dont know the six counties and yet you are happy to label me as inherently evil???

The Quadratic Equation

Apart from the very odd niave, non corrupt, halfwit, that is doomed to political failure, Honest people do not go into Irish politics.

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a soundrel" - Samuel Johnson, April 7, 1775

De Valera, Collins, FF/FG/SF/LAB They're all the same. Corrupt pimps and whormongers the lot of them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ebftIo_qu4

PatricaMcKay2

AG2R wrote: »

IRA in the North yes, The little factions that have broken off from that no.

Oh really? The Provos always had this nasty Catholic Defender side to them. Do the "dissidents"?

PatricaMcKay2

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

Apart from the very odd niave, non corrupt, halfwit, that is doomed to political failure, Honest people do not go into Irish politics.

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a soundrel" - Samuel Johnson, April 7, 1775

De Valera, Collins, FF/FG/SF/LAB They're all the same. Corrupt pimps and whormongers the lot of them.

Fianna Fail= first time as tragedy, second time as farce. Thats my feelings on Shame Fein.