So, about these Referenda coming up.

Mint Sauce

In all the excitment of the Presedential Elections coming up, it seems that some people have forgot about the two Referenda also being decided on the same day.

Half the people I have spoke to, knew there was a Referendum(s) on the same day, but did now know if it was one, two or three that was being decided, and the other half, did not realise there was any at all.

So, people of AHs, did you know there was any? Theres two by the way. Any ideas what they all about? Still sussing that bit out my self. Seems one is something to do with relaxing the prohibition on the reduction of the salaries of Irish judges, and the other would allow the Houses of the Oireachtas to conduct full inquiries into different maters. Or (have my foil cap on now) do you think the goverment and the different campaigns are using the Presidential Election to distract us from maybe something more important, ie, these Referenda.

Ps, mods, could you please keep this seperate from the Presidential Election threads, although maybe ever so slightly linked, would like to see some discussion on something I have seen very little of, if any so far. Thanks.

starbelgrade

One of the referendums is to vote David Norris into the Aras & prove how utterly stupid & contemptible the Irish voting public are.

And the other two are about something else.

FlutterinBantam

Know something man, you come across as a very smug and condescending poster.

No charge for the feedback, friend:cool:

starbelgrade

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Know something man, you come across as a very smug and condescending poster.

No charge for the feedback, friend:cool:

And you come across as a poster who talks nothing but complete & utter shite - both literally & figuratively.

No charge either dude. You can keep the tip.

Latchy

No doubt the people of Greece , Italy and greater Europe will be queing up to get their early morning paper for the results of such an important,historic occasion .

westendgirlie

I didn't know there were referendums coming up ???

cosmicfart

Dont know about other Referendas but salaries of Irish judges and other high level bodies that get payed by the taxpayer, ALL, are being reduced and not before time and also nothing to do Referendums .

Mr Trade In

Is this the part where we all in unison chant, NO ON 24, NO ON 24. The government would waste any extra power they are given or as the Tin Foil Hat Brigade would have us believe use it to super empose their will upon us, screw the judges they are a over paid bunch of tyrants

Guill

Yes and Yes

Kevin Duffy

I think the lack of profile and information on the upcoming referenda is well and truly in keeping with the spirit of blind, disinterested, disenfranchised-feeling voting we usually have.
Ancient proverb, if voting changed anything, it'd be made illegal.

Mint Sauce

westendgirlie wrote: »

I didn't know there were referendums coming up ???

My point exactly. I thought I heard something about a Referendum ages ago, but as heard nothing since, I gave it no more thought. I was wasn't untill we were taking about the Election the other day, that someone mentioned that there was also a Referendum on the same day made me realise I wasn't imagining things.

Kind of wondering why there is so little being said about them.

westendgirlie

I suppose the fact that nobody knows what these referendum are about is in line with the last two referendums. Still haven't a notion what they were about either!

RachaelVO

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Know something man, you come across as a very smug and condescending poster.

No charge for the feedback, friend:cool:

starbelgrade wrote: »

And you come across as a poster who talks nothing but complete & utter shite - both literally & figuratively.

No charge either dude. You can keep the tip.

Play nice now... don't make me come up there and give ya both a slap!

No apologise ya gombeens!

My name is URL

Both proposals hand the Government too much power. If they can reduce the wages of judges then they can also increase them, and that could lead to a dangerous situation. The separation of powers in this country are already a joke without opening up the possibility that governments can have control over judges.

The other one sounds great but really, would all government inquiries be equal.. and can it be guaranteed that cronyism won't weasel its way into that stuff the same as it has in almost every other aspect of politics in Ireland?

efb

Judges pay
Power to oireachtas committes
Prob abortion

TheZohanS

Had completely forgotten about the referenda, thanks for reminding me OP.

KeithM89_old

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Know something man, you come across as a very smug and condescending poster.

No charge for the feedback, friend:cool:

Yeah good man, top contribution there.

Banned.
And this time its permanent.

RachaelVO

My name is URL wrote: »

Both proposals hand the Government too much power. If they can reduce the wages of judges then they can also increase them, and that could lead to a dangerous situation. The separation of powers in this country are already a joke without opening up the possibility that governments can have control over judges.

The other one sounds great but really, would all government inquiries be equal.. and can it be guaranteed that cronyism won't weasel its way into that stuff the same as it has in almost every other aspect of politics in Ireland?

I had forgotten about the referendum, but I didn't really know what they were about, is that true? Makes ya think, absolute power corrupts absolutely. If they have that kind of power what is there to keep them in check?

My name is URL

RachaelVO wrote: »

I had forgotten about the referendum, but I didn't really know what they were about, is that true? Makes ya think, absolute power corrupts absolutely. If they have that kind of power what is there to keep them in check?

I dunno.. Coast Guard?

RachaelVO

My name is URL wrote: »

I dunno.. Coast Guard?

We'll put you in charge of that so! You've not written any letters now, that will bring your new position into disrepute have you?

General General

My name is URL wrote: »

I dunno.. Coast Guard?

I was thinking more along the lines of yer man Louis "Lou the Lou" Copeland or perhaps for a more contemporary take on that most classic of patterns, John Rocca.

FetchTheGin

starbelgrade wrote: »

And you come across as a poster who talks nothing but complete & utter shite - both literally & figuratively.

No charge either dude. You can keep the tip.

Well played.

Son Of A Vidic

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Know something man, you come across as a very smug and condescending poster.

No charge for the feedback, friend:cool:

starbelgrade wrote: »

And you come across as a poster who talks nothing but complete & utter shite - both literally & figuratively.

No charge either dude. You can keep the tip.

Now that's what I call serving up a splendid portion of this.

Son Of A Vidic

OP, you raise an important point because I can't believe I totally missed the associated referenda. A bit like being hidden in plain sight? Unfortunately the cult of personality/celebrity dominates, so will these referenda even be properly examined and scrutinised? Because I suspect they won't.

DEFTLEFTHAND

When will the proposed abolition of the Seanad be put to referendum?

mikemac

One is to give power to Oireachtas committees to start investigations.
I'm voting no, I don't see giving this kind of power to TD's as a good thing.
And if someone is to be judged then court is the place to go, not ordered to stand in front of TDs and answer questions.
But I'm going to learn more about it

Judges Pay, I don't realy know where I stand here. Yeah it's the populist thing to say cut their pay but at the same time was have separation of powers and that's important. I don't know enough about it.

westendgirlie

I went to the official referendum 2011 website. It was very informative. Yes, yes it was!

www.referendum2011.ie

Lando Griffin

Do we need a president?
Do we need Oireachtas enquiries?
Do we really need Judges?

Dotrel

Do they deliberately phrase these bills with double and triple negatives so that the average punter isn't sure which way they're even voting?

"amend the Constitution of Ireland to relax its prohibition on the reduction of the salaries of Irish judges"

Can someone just tell me which way to vote in order to make the government happy so that I don't have to vote again in order to get the 'right' answer? (ala Nice, Lisbon)

Mint Sauce

Dotrel wrote: »

Do they deliberately phrase these bills with double and triple negatives so that the average punter isn't sure which way they're even voting?

"amend the Constitution of Ireland to relax its prohibition on the reduction of the salaries of Irish judges"

Can someone just tell me which way to vote in order to make the government happy so that I don't have to vote again in order to get the 'right' answer? (ala Nice, Lisbon)

Just by looking at it quickly for the first time this evening, I would have thought a yes vote, allows for a reduction to saleries in the future. Would have to look at it more cloesly though.

Totally agree on the wording, unfortunaltly though I'd say they have to make it legally sounding for the purpose/benifit of the Constitution and putting it through or not.

SafeSurfer

My name is URL wrote: »

Both proposals hand the Government too much power. If they can reduce the wages of judges then they can also increase them, and that could lead to a dangerous situation. The separation of powers in this country are already a joke without opening up the possibility that governments can have control over judges.

The other one sounds great but really, would all government inquiries be equal.. and can it be guaranteed that cronyism won't weasel its way into that stuff the same as it has in almost every other aspect of politics in Ireland?

I don't know of any other country where the constitution prohibits reducing the salaries of the judiciary. Yet this does not seem to affect the separation of powers in other countries.

If only we could have a referendum to reduce the salaries of solicitors/barristers.

I wish I could find the quote I read yesterday from the head of some legal representative association who said moves to increase the regulation of fees charged by the legal profession would inevitably lead to higher fees.

languagenerd

I only found out last week that there were referenda, and only because I saw it on Wikipedia . Why aren't the powers that be publicising this? Almost every other referendum, we've been bombarded with information (usually one-sided, but still).

I need to look them up further - I know one is about allowing the gov't to cut judge's pay, and the other is something to do with Oireachtas inquiries. Most people I know didn't know anything about them, let alone what voting yes or no will mean - this is a recipe for disaster...

My name is URL

SafeSurfer wrote: »

I don't know of any other country where the constitution prohibits reducing the salaries of the judiciary. Yet this does not seem to affect the separation of powers in other countries.

The separation of powers in most countries don't hang on the frayed few strings that our own does.

If only we could have a referendum to reduce the salaries of solicitors/barristers.

That's mental.. are you forced to employ any particular solicitor? Should the government and public have a say in how much you're paid? Let's have a referendum on everyone's salaries!

I wish I could find the quote I read yesterday from the head of some legal representative association who said moves to increase the regulation of fees charged by the legal profession would inevitably lead to higher fees.

Why wouldn't it? If there were no regulation on fees then competitiveness could flourish and people would be paying less for more equal services.

SafeSurfer

My name is URL wrote: »

The separation of powers in most countries don't hang on the frayed few strings that our own does.



[HTML]
That's mental.. are you forced to employ any particular solicitor? Should the government and public have a say in how much you're paid? Let's have a referendum on everyone's salaries!
[/HTML]

The government does have a say in how much many, many people are paid.


[HTML]Why wouldn't it? If there were no regulation on fees then competitiveness could flourish and people would be paying less for more equal services.[/[/HTML]QUOTE]

The point is lack of regulation of fees leaves clients open to price gouging, 450 euro for "photocopying" etc etc.

Pandora2

What surprises me is that anyone is surprised by this sh1t!!

I offer you Lisbon 1 (we the electorate fecked up:(), followed by Lisbon 2 (thank feck we managed to get it right then:rolleyes:)

I won't pretend to be a political anorak but within my lifetime, some 40 odd years, on the couple of occasions referenda took place (Right to Information, in particular) you would have had to be a Harvard Law Grad to understand the 'legalise'...you know the deal when 'Yes'....means 'No':eek:

So what are we to learn from this?

!. Confuse the electorate
2. Ignore the electorate, make them do it again 'til they give the right answer!
3. Keep the electorate in the dark......

Never thought I'd say this but.........is Ireland really a democracy??:mad:

mikom

KeithM89 wrote: »

Yeah good man, top contribution there.

Banned.
And this time its permanent.

* Awaits rise in the number of Fulton crowns posts*

Zebra3

FAO journos reading this thread, more media debate over these referenda and less on the crap about who'll be taking it up the Pheono.

hatrickpatrick

When the hell are we going to get our Children's rights referendum?

That's about the most important referendum we're going to have in a long, long time. Making sure that a century of state sponsored torture is never, ever repeated in this country.

UglyBolloxFace

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Know something man, you come across as a very smug and condescending poster.

No charge for the feedback, friend:cool:

starbelgrade wrote: »

And you come across as a poster who talks nothing but complete & utter shite - both literally & figuratively.

No charge either dude. You can keep the tip.

You might definitely need this - http://www.1-800homeopathy.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/5e06319eda06f020e43594a9c230972d/k/e/keokuk-oint.png

UglyBolloxFace

KeithM89 wrote: »

Yeah good man, top contribution there.

Banned.
And this time its permanent.

*it's

4zn76tysfajdxp

KeithM89 wrote: »

Banned.
And this time its permanent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9G4jnaznUoQ

thebman

One of the arguments I heard is that it won't pay someone to become a judge if they reduce the rates for judges.

The fact that the other parts of the professions costs could come down in line with judges pay and the economy in general seemed to be lost on the people that were being interviewed I saw on this issue a while back.

Sometimes the populist agenda is the right agenda TBH. Judges wages have f*** all to do with separation of powers IMO. If moving their wages up or down would have that much effect on their decision making then they shouldn't be judges to begin with IMO.

Plenty of ordinary people get wage cuts or pay increases and manage to remain objective in their decision making as part of their job. Why do judges think they lack this ability?

Oh and I think the media are saturating us in presidential coverage at the moment to get the mileage out of it so they can focus on the referendums closer to the election.

irish-stew wrote: »

Just by looking at it quickly for the first time this evening, I would have thought a yes vote, allows for a reduction to saleries in the future. Would have to look at it more cloesly though.

Totally agree on the wording, unfortunaltly though I'd say they have to make it legally sounding for the purpose/benifit of the Constitution and putting it through or not.

Yeah legalese, the made up language that makes you sound like your being interfered with as you speak

"The specialized vocabulary of the legal profession, especially when considered to be complex or abstruse." - freedictionary.com

Hard to have protectionism in a profession that is basically reading and writing what happened or agreeing to things with each other unless you have something like legalese to ensure no ordinary Joe can know what they are even signing let alone write it themselves :P

Hogzy

Im worried that people will vote allowing judicial pay to be changed. People really dont know the true effect this actually has. The Oireachtas and the Judiciary should not have their powers mixed in anyway.

problemchimp

My name is URL wrote: »

Both proposals hand the Government too much power. If they can reduce the wages of judges then they can also increase them, and that could lead to a dangerous situation. The separation of powers in this country are already a joke without opening up the possibility that governments can have control over judges.

The other one sounds great but really, would all government inquiries be equal.. and can it be guaranteed that cronyism won't weasel its way into that stuff the same as it has in almost every other aspect of politics in Ireland?

I agree with you on the first point, I don't think government should have any influence on the legal system, that's why our constitution was written that way in the first place.
On the second point, maybe I'm being naive but I think cronyism is gone. Actually I'm being very naive when I think about it.

sensibleken

yeah right! they say its to reduce judges pay but that just means that theyre handing over powers of abotion and the minimum wage and neutrality to the secret order of British Israelites who dug up the hill of tara that time so they can turn our babies into petrol!


And if you vote no because you realise this, theyll just call you an idiot and make you vote again!!!!

VOTE NO ON EVERYTHING!!!!!!

sensibleken

Also in the spirit of balance

VOTE YES FOR JOBS!

judges jobs presumably

RachaelVO

sensibleken wrote: »

yeah right! they say its to reduce judges pay but that just means that theyre handing over powers of abotion and the minimum wage and neutrality to the secret order of British Israelites who dug up the hill of tara that time so they can turn our babies into petrol!


And if you vote no because you realise this, theyll just call you an idiot and make you vote again!!!!

VOTE NO ON EVERYTHING!!!!!!

The sneaky bastards!!!!!!!

Hogzy

sensibleken wrote: »

yeah right! they say its to reduce judges pay but that just means that theyre handing over powers of abotion and the minimum wage and neutrality to the secret order of British Israelites who dug up the hill of tara that time so they can turn our babies into petrol!


And if you vote no because you realise this, theyll just call you an idiot and make you vote again!!!!

VOTE NO ON EVERYTHING!!!!!!

Im confused. Is this sarcasm? If it is then lol.

If its not then OH GOD!!!

RachaelVO

sensibleken wrote: »

Also in the spirit of balance

VOTE YES FOR JOBS!

judges jobs presumably

The sneaky bastards... oh wait, can't use that one again!

The LYING bastards!

languagenerd

Hogzy wrote: »

Im worried that people will vote allowing judicial pay to be changed. People really dont know the true effect this actually has. The Oireachtas and the Judiciary should not have their powers mixed in anyway.

But is their power not somewhat mixed anyway in that the Oireachtas has to pay the judges (through the budget)?
If everyone else has had pay cuts, why haven't the judges? Would it not be fairer if the Oireachtas could make cuts to their pay in the budget, along with the public service?


*I freely admit that I know very little about this, so if I'm wrong please explain

Hogzy

languagenerd wrote: »

But is their power not somewhat mixed anyway in that the Oireachtas has to pay the judges (through the budget)?
If everyone else has had pay cuts, why haven't the judges? Would it not be fairer if the Oireachtas could make cuts to their pay in the budget, along with the public service?


*I freely admit that I know very little about this, so if I'm wrong please explain

Judges are paid by the state yes. Keeping the Judiciary, Executive and Legislature seperate is key in a democratic society but in the real world its impossible to do. The executive and the Legislature are completely mixed because the executive will be made up of whoever has a majority in the Dail. Its ridiculous. But Ireland has not done too badly by keeping the Judiciary seperate. Judges shouldnt be subject to political pressure. Otherwise their decisions can be influenced by a body other than a court. NOT GOOD.

Its also important to pay judges a high salary to prevent them being bought.

People need to keep in mind that Judges are extremely educated and intelligent people who could earn probably 5 times more than their judges salary if they were in private practice. Becoming a judge is already considered to be taking a pay cut.