Property tax meetings

Khannie

Anyone been to these? Are they any good or just a load of rant? I got a leaflet in the door on Monday (the night that the meeting in Skerries was on) but couldn't attend.

I really, really hate the idea of a property tax. Don't see why I should pay ground rent on property that I already own (and paid a flipping enormous tax on at purchase time). Would happily pay extra income tax if the country needs it, it's a conceptual thing for me.

The Hill Billy

I saw the posters up in Skerries about this.

"€100 this year! Next year €1000?" - or something like that.

While I agree entirely with your sentiments - the meetings smack of sensationalist Socialist Party-type guff to me.

Khannie

The Hill Billy wrote: »

While I agree entirely with your sentiments - the meetings smack of sensationalist Socialist Party-type guff to me.

Yeah, that's what I was wary of. There's another one coming up soon. Can't remember which town it's in, but I'd consider attending if they weren't all ranty rant rant. I really don't want a property tax. Did I mention that?

Corsendonk

Its one of those famous broad spectrum campaigns but when you turn up its a Socialist Party Convention with the odd People Before Profit. It helps them suck in a few more supporters.

Fingal Indo

Tuesday September 27 2011

THE first steps in establishing a campaign of mass nonpayment of the proposed household and water tax charge swings into action this week with a series of public meetings set to take place. Organised by the national organising forum opposing the charges, meetings will be held in Swords, Rush and Balbriggan Swords in the coming weeks following on from the first gatherings in Lusk and Skerries. A meeting is taking place at St Sylvester's GAA Club in Malahide on Tuesday (September 27th) at 8pm; The Strand bar in Rush on Wednesday at 8pm; the Balbriggan Combined Community Centre on Thursday at 8pm and Rivervalley Community Centre on Monday, October 10th at 8pm. Further meetings are expected tot take place in Kinsealy, Portmarnock, Baldoyle and Howth ensuring that in advance of the charnge being implemented in January there will be an extensive network of activists organised to step up the campaign of non-payment, according to the organisers
Local Dublin North TD Clare Daly (Socialist Party) who will be addressing many of the meeting. She said: 'Residents in North County Dublin have a track record of resisting unfair local taxes going back to the time of the victorious campaign against the water charges in the 1990s.' She claimed: ' Despite Minister Hogan's pleading that the charge will be ' only' €100 there are firm indications from the EU/IMF memorandum of understanding and government economic advisers like John Fitzgerald that the combined water and property tax will exceed €1,000 by 2014.' 'I would encourage all residents in North County Dublin to come to the meeting and play an active role in building the campaign.'

ClareDalyWebsite

Following the recent successful national organising forum of the Campaign Against the Household and Water Taxes scores of public meetings are being organised in communities up and down the country.
In North County Dublin the follow meetings are scheduled to take place in the coming days and weeks:
Thursday 22nd- Murray’s, Lusk at 8pm
Monday 26th- Joe May’s, Skerries 8pm
Monday 26th- Lord Mayors in Swords 8pm
Tuesday 27th Saint Sylvester’s GAA club, Malahide 8pm
Wednesday 28th The Strand, Main Street, Rush 8pm
Thursday 29th Combined Clubs Community Centre, Balbriggan 8pm
Monday 10th St Finian’s Rivervalley Community Centre, Swords 8pm
Further meetings will take place in Kinsealy, Portmarnock, Baldoyle and Howth ensuring that in advance of the charnge being implemented in January there will be an extensive network of activists organised to step up the campaign of non-payment.
Successful Anti Water Charges campaign of 90s will be repeated

Clare Daly TD, who will be addressing many of the meetings said:
“Residents in North County Dublin have a track record of resisting unfair local taxes going back to the time of the victorious campaign against the water charges in the 1990s.
“Despite Minister Hogan’s pleading that the charge will be ‘only’ €100 there are firm indications from the EU/IMF memorandum of understanding and government economic advisers like John Fitzgerald that the combined water and property tax will exceed €1,000 by 2014.
“I would encourage all residents in North County Dublin to come to the meeting and play an active role in building the campaign.”

And who attended this "recent successful national organising forum of the Campaign Against the Household and Water Taxes "? Why not have a look at the meeting

Sound Quality is poor but most of the Campaign organisers appear to be Socialist Party representatives.:rolleyes:

dshamrock2000

I paid 30k stamp duty, if they want me to pay property tax then i'll hapilly take the 30k back or I simply just wont pay it whether im a majority or minority I'll be sticking to my principles

The Hill Billy

Ah jaysus Corsendonk, you expect us to watch 9 minutes of that to find out who might be there. Go on - give us a clue or preferably a time that we can skip forward to. Please!

Corsendonk

The Hill Billy wrote: »

Ah jaysus Corsendonk, you expect us to watch 9 minutes of that to find out who might be there. Go on - give us a clue or preferably a time that we can skip forward to. Please!

My eyeballs were streaming blood because they had another 5 vids of the event, say one thing about the Socialists Party they love to talk.

Main Speakers on show were
Joe Higgins Socialist Party TD
Clare Daily Socialist Party TD
Cllr Mattew Waine Socialist Party FCC
Michael Taft, Chief Research Officer with Unite the Union
Maurice Sweeney, an environmental engineer

LeoB

The Hill Billy wrote: »

I saw the posters up in Skerries about this.

"€100 this year! Next year €1000?" - or something like that.

While I agree entirely with your sentiments - the meetings smack of sensationalist Socialist Party-type guff to me.

Think your bang on the HB.

Corsendonk wrote: »

Its one of those famous broad spectrum campaigns but when you turn up its a Socialist Party Convention with the odd People Before Profit. It helps them suck in a few more supporters.

Sound Quality is poor but most of the Campaign organisers appear to be Socialist Party representatives.:rolleyes:

Whip up local anger, cry about your rights and get a few new members. Then achieve fck all. There is room for debate on this issue but I would imagine the mantra will be pay nothing. The problem with that is and it will show here is that we have the people who cant pay and the ones who wont. So people like who are willing to pay will pay more.

Khannie wrote: »

I really, really hate the idea of a property tax. Don't see why I should pay ground rent on property that I already own (and paid a flipping enormous tax on at purchase time). Would happily pay extra income tax if the country needs it, it's a conceptual thing for me.

Id be of similar thought to you. I have no problem(well not much) paying more tax or contributing more but I dont like the idea of property tax

average_runner

Get over it, property tax is very common in every other country so why not us.

The Hill Billy

"Every other country" - really? I think not.
It is another tax to prop up the grossly mis-managed government coffers. But that is a topic for the Politics or Economics fora.

RobFowl

The Hill Billy wrote: »

"Every other country" - really? I think not.
It is another tax to prop up the grossly mis-managed government coffers. But that is a topic for the Politics or Economics fora.

Tend to agree.
If it was a proper local authority tax used to fund local amenities and services I'd be happy (maybe too strong a term !) to pay it.
As another top up to central government coffers (probably going straight into a German bank..) I'm not quite so keen.

These meeting though have the look of mindless and pointless rabble rousing unfortunately.

LeoB

average_runner wrote: »

Get over it, property tax is very common in every other country so why not us.

That sounds like the brits do it, the Yanks do it so it must be good we will do it aswell.

I think most people dont have a problem stumping up extra tax as in PAYE P.R.S.I if its properly used to improve our services but this property tax is to bail out the idots who landed us here.

If my car tax goes up €100 and I can see road works been done well I am happy to pay it. If I have to make a health contributuion of €10 a week that means I will get looked after when I need a hospital bed I would also pay that but people dont have the stomach to give any more to European banks who have seriously messed up

Khannie

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I think I'll give it a miss. Pity really.

average_runner wrote: »

Get over it, property tax is very common in every other country so why not us.

Because I couldn't care less what any other state has as their law. As I said I have no problem paying extra tax if necessary. I don't like the idea of the state thinking it's my landlord and charging me rent for property that I purchased (and have already paid a shed load of tax on at purchase time).

Corsendonk

Anyone actually want to guess how many of the core group of rent a protest Socialist Party activists actually own property?

LeoB

I would not like to guess but a few I know involved live in comfortable homes........

Funny thing is I got a leaflet in my door today for a meeting at 8......... Wait for it now..... The meeting was at 8 last night.

Big bold letters on front page... "Dont pay the household Tax"

ragg

I'd rather pay income tax than propery taxes.

Also, some of the ideas that this government are coming out with really go against the grain for me, such as a new semi state company for water provision (water charges) which is a basic human right. It's reminds me of the movie Total Recall where Cohaagen was charging people for oxygen. :pac:

In all seriousness, setting up a company to sell water is pretty grim, no doubt this company will pay massive salaries, and bleed more money out of the working family. Also, once this company has been set up, these charges are here to stay, like property taxes. At least income taxes fluctuate..

alexanderomahon

Why do people slag off the socialists for trying to organise oppositon to the property tax, at least they are trying to do something? If people don't like their politics, but still oppose the tax, then organise your own oppostion, but surely it is better to do something rather than doing nothiong and criticising others.

Khannie

Fair point. Was just considering what the alternatives are the other day and to be fair there aren't any. At least they're doing something. Might get in touch with them. My first line of defence will be not to pay.

Corsendonk

Khannie wrote: »

Fair point. Was just considering what the alternatives are the other day and to be fair there aren't any. At least they're doing something. Might get in touch with them. My first line of defence will be not to pay.

There is always a way around taxes if you look hard enough, mental institutions and nursing homes are exempt.:D In the US church buildings had special low tax status so some people went as far as to invent their own religion and of course their house was a place of worship. Thats how L Ron Hubbard founded Sciencetology, the man had a morbid fear of taxes.

Corsendonk

alexanderomahon wrote: »

Why do people slag off the socialists for trying to organise oppositon to the property tax, at least they are trying to do something? If people don't like their politics, but still oppose the tax, then organise your own oppostion, but surely it is better to do something rather than doing nothiong and criticising others.

Some of us like to do are protesting at the ballot box.

Khannie

Are the opposition even opposed to this?

Chinafoot

Corsendonk wrote: »

Some of us like to do are protesting at the ballot box.

That doesn't make a whole lot of sense tbh. In fact it seems a rather futile way of looking at things. Presumably a property tax wouldn't be something that you agree with, but you see no point in fighting against it because you do your "protesting at the ballot box"? What, so we should all sit and do nothing until the next election? Let them do what they like now but, oooh you'll get them on election day? What utter nonsense.

Its actually really sad that people are scoffing at this purely because those trying to do something are part of the Socialist Party. I personally don't agree with the majority of their politics but fair play to them for actually trying. Too much crap happens in this country because we all just sit around píssing and moaning about it but won't do anything. And then we mock those that do. Pathetic really.

loveisdivine

It really annoys me when people keep spouting out "Get over it...they have the same tax in England"

Yes, England has council tax, but that money actually goes towards things like having your bins collected. This household tax is yet another pointless money making exercise. If they said from the outset, were really hard up for cash so we need everyone to give 100euro each, then it wouldnt be as bad, its that they try and give it some crappy name and make us think its actually for something.

Were not idiots, we know its not! Dont treat us like gullable fools!

oh and it will also cause friction between landlords and tenants, because neither will want to be the ones that pay it. Our rent got increased by 25 euros a month when we renewed our lease in August, and I'm sure it was only incase the landlord has to pay this tax, so they feel like they've got the money from us really.

Mach Lei

Khannie wrote: »

Anyone been to these? Are they any good or just a load of rant? I got a leaflet in the door on Monday (the night that the meeting in Skerries was on) but couldn't attend.

I really, really hate the idea of a property tax. Don't see why I should pay ground rent on property that I already own (and paid a flipping enormous tax on at purchase time). Would happily pay extra income tax if the country needs it, it's a conceptual thing for me.

Im from Waterford, while the campaign is only starting here, the first meeting took place thursday night, with a decent turn out, people at the meeting came forward to set up a committe and organise in their local area, the next meeting takes place next week in a different area.

dsmythy

What alternatives are they putting forward at the meetings?

Mach Lei

dsmythy wrote: »

What alternatives are they putting forward at the meetings?

The only real alternative is a mass campaign built on non payment,the €100 charge is only the beginning and people will end up paying five times that. “The charge will be up as high as €500 before you know it. If it is allowed to get its foot in the door the household tax is a stalking horse for water tax and property tax, attend the next meeting in your local area to get Involved in this campaign.

professore

I think normally a property tax is a GOOD idea, but too late. A property tax makes sense if stamp duty is slashed to near zero. It will keep a lid on property prices and balance up renting and buying. It also keeps government revenues from property tax stable whether the property market is dead or booming. It could also be used for social housing etc.

However all these new taxes and levies are just going to either foreign banks or propping up our currently unaffordable public sector, at a time when people can least afford it.

The Hill Billy

Mach Lei wrote: »

The only real alternative is a mass campaign built on non payment,the €100 charge is only the beginning and people will end up paying five times that. “The charge will be up as high as €500 before you know it. If it is allowed to get its foot in the door the household tax is a stalking horse for water tax and property tax, attend the next meeting in your local area to get Involved in this campaign.

And how do you know that the charge wll increase five-fold? Source?

Are you involved in organising this campaign?

azzie

If you bought a house in France for €200,000, you'd pay an extra €13,450 in notaires fees (mostly tax) and then you'd pay Taxe Fonciere and Taxe d'Habitation every year (ours is €1,400 per year). Plus, of course water is metered.

dsmythy

Mach Lei wrote: »

The only real alternative is a mass campaign built on non payment,the €100 charge is only the beginning and people will end up paying five times that. “The charge will be up as high as €500 before you know it. If it is allowed to get its foot in the door the household tax is a stalking horse for water tax and property tax, attend the next meeting in your local area to get Involved in this campaign.

I was wondering more about their ideas to raise money for the state coffers other than the various things they object to.

Mach Lei

The Hill Billy wrote: »

And how do you know that the charge wll increase five-fold? Source?

Are you involved in organising this campaign?

Back when the household charge was first announced in July,John Fitzgerald of the ESRI on radio said the initial plans to introduce a €100 water charge per house would only bring in €160 million, while the target was to bring in €1 billion.

He said that would see an eventual charge per house of €1,000 per year.

http://www.laois-nationalist.ie/tabId/153/itemId/12052/Stop-the-taxes.aspx

Ruairí Quinn has even admitted its to Increase.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/household-charge-could-increase-admits-minister-514416.html

Are you involved in organising this campaign?[/

Im Involved helping out, with the campaign in my local area.

golfwallah

How about writing to your local councillors asking them to demand cost cuts in the Fingal Co Co Budget when it is put to them for their vote?

The easy alternative to cutting out waste (which might upset just a few people) is for the council to levy higher and higher charges on the ever suffering taxpayer - see: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056251802&page=7

Cardinal Richelieu

Unfinished Housing Estate list for Fingal from the Dept of Environment. Residents are exempt from the Household Charge.

https://www.householdcharge.ie/UHE/Fingal.pdf

Cardinal Richelieu

Anyone have feedback from the Property Tax Meeting in Lusk last Thursday? It was covered on RTE Drivetime.

Kintarō Hattori

I think there's one in Balbriggan tomorrow. Like Khannie I hate the idea of a property tax but if these meetings are mostly Socialist party driven then I'll most likely pass.

Khannie

Kintarō Hattori wrote: »

Like Khannie I hate the idea of a property tax but if these meetings are mostly Socialist party driven then I'll most likely pass.

Yeah, I'm still not inclined to head to those meetings, despite feeling strongly on the issue. My first line of defence will be simply not paying (as you can see from my sig ).

Lamper.sffc

Khannie wrote: »

Yeah, I'm still not inclined to head to those meetings, despite feeling strongly on the issue. My first line of defence will be simply not paying (as you can see from my sig ).

Im a bit late to this debate but have been to some recent meetings in Rush and Balbriggan. Meetings where fine and quite informative. Not much ranting at all from the socialists side. A few speakers spoke at the beginning to inform us about the campaign and also how they felt this was an injust tax and the floor was left open to take questions and for anybody to have there say.
Tds from all parties where invited to speak and either refused or simply didnt reply to the request except for a Sinn Fein guy (not sure of his name)

Im not that political myself and these are actually the first of these kind of meetings iv been to and as I said I found them to be fine.
What I would say to anybody would be to at least check one meeting out, then if its not for you its not for you. Better to at least make a judgement on the meetings and there agenda having witnessed one for yourself


Meeting this week in Rush in the strand. Not sure of time and date because i misplaced the leaflet:o. Maybe someone else in the know would have the info.


EDIT: Meeting tomorrow night (Wednesday 14th) in the Strand pub at 8pm

Khannie

Nice one. Thanks for the update. Yeah I think it's time I got up off my bum and went along to a meeting at this stage. I just saw this now though, 50 minutes after the meeting in Rush had started. By any chance do you know if there are any in Skerries any time soon?

Like most people my first line of defence will be just not paying. Beyond that though I'd be interested in an organised, non-political (i.e. not run by a single party) protest of some description.

Lamper.sffc

Khannie wrote: »

Nice one. Thanks for the update. Yeah I think it's time I got up off my bum and went along to a meeting at this stage. I just saw this now though, 50 minutes after the meeting in Rush had started. By any chance do you know if there are any in Skerries any time soon?

Like most people my first line of defence will be just not paying. Beyond that though I'd be interested in an organised, non-political (i.e. not run by a single party) protest of some description.

Not sure about Skerries sorry.If I hear anything Ill pop it up.

If you are intending not to pay, it would be a good idea alright to have some form of organised group to turn to for support (whoever that group may be)

A national indoor rally has been organised for the 24th of March. More info on the campaigns website http://nohouseholdtax.org/

Khannie

Lamper.sffc wrote: »

If you are intending not to pay, it would be a good idea alright to have some form of organised group to turn to for support (whoever that group may be)

Yeah good point.

Lamper.sffc wrote: »

A national indoor rally has been organised for the 24th of March. More info on the campaigns website http://nohouseholdtax.org/

Thanks. I'll try to be there.

Cardinal Richelieu

Khannie wrote: »

Yeah good point.



Thanks. I'll try to be there.

Did you go to the rally?

Khannie

I didn't make it. Sick children to the rescue! I heard it was a decent success though. Pics in the papers etc.

The Rooster

ragg wrote: »

I'd rather pay income tax than propery taxes.

This is just nuts.

I was reading elsewhere that someone on €25,000 is paying nearly €1,000 more in tax now than they were in 2008.

Someone on €50,000 is paying over €2,000 more.
Someone on €100,000 is paying over €5,000 more.

The PAYE worker has been hit hardest of everyone. If the household tax is abolished it'll be the PAYE worker who takes the hit again. The money has to come from somewhere, at least with the household charge its spread over a wider base.

And of course it will go up over time and be replaced by a property tax. But any PAYE worker who is against the household charge / property tax really hasn't thought it through.

As for the people who think that just because they paid stamp duty they should be exempt from certain future taxes, well you deserve a big :rolleyes:

The Hill Billy

Hi folks - before this goes off on a tangent into a general Politics discussion, can I remind you to keep this locally-relevant & on-topic.

Thanks,

tHB

BroomBurner

Is anyone heading in tomorrow for the protest?

I'm going in, and will be trying avoid the social workers party or any group that looks like they might cause trouble. I'm heading in on my own so far, but if anyone else is thinking of it and wants to join me for mutual support, let me know.

Lamper.sffc

The Rooster wrote: »

This is just nuts.

I was reading elsewhere that someone on €25,000 is paying nearly €1,000 more in tax now than they were in 2008.

Someone on €50,000 is paying over €2,000 more.
Someone on €100,000 is paying over €5,000 more.

The PAYE worker has been hit hardest of everyone. If the household tax is abolished it'll be the PAYE worker who takes the hit again. The money has to come from somewhere, at least with the household charge its spread over a wider base.

And of course it will go up over time and be replaced by a property tax. But any PAYE worker who is against the household charge / property tax really hasn't thought it through.

As for the people who think that just because they paid stamp duty they should be exempt from certain future taxes, well you deserve a big :rolleyes:

can i just take your :rolleyes: and give you a big

Lamper.sffc

BroomBurner wrote: »

Is anyone heading in tomorrow for the protest?

I'm going in, and will be trying avoid the social workers party or any group that looks like they might cause trouble. I'm heading in on my own so far, but if anyone else is thinking of it and wants to join me for mutual support, let me know.

Im going.

Im heading in for me and also to represent my parents and my widowed aunt who hasnt two cent to rub together. For me this has nothing to do with any parties, socialist or whoever. Its about what i think is fair.

BroomBurner

It was very peaceful today, and most of the protesters were keeping apart from the SF/SWP banners, so if anyone tries to say it wasn't just ordinary householders taking part, they're lying. Also, there were a lot of young families, kids and buggies.

I thought it was a good turn out, though I'm not the best at judging crowd size!

Lamper.sffc

BroomBurner wrote: »

It was very peaceful today, and most of the protesters were keeping apart from the SF/SWP banners, so if anyone tries to say it wasn't just ordinary householders taking part, they're lying. Also, there were a lot of young families, kids and buggies.

I thought it was a good turn out, though I'm not the best at judging crowd size!

.

Agree. Great day. Well organised and no trouble at all from what i experienced. People from all walks of life, some with allegiances to parties and plenty who didnt. Lots of families and people of different ages and backgrounds.

I thought it was hilarious how a few FG members started to wave and taunt the protesters from the convention centre, this stopped quite quickly as soon as they realised how many protesters where coming around the corner. They then pulled the blinds in a pathetic attempt to ignore the protest


http://www.thejournal.ie/fg-gardai-instructed-blinds-to-be-pulled-as-protests-gathered-outside-ard-fheis-402689-Mar2012/

Khannie

Was out walking last night and spotted a poster. Meeting in Joe Mays, Thursday the 18th (this Thursday) at 8pm. I will be there.

The Rooster

BroomBurner wrote: »

It was very peaceful today, and most of the protesters were keeping apart from the SF/SWP banners, so if anyone tries to say it wasn't just ordinary householders taking part, they're lying. Also, there were a lot of young families, kids and buggies.

I thought it was a good turn out, though I'm not the best at judging crowd size!

I'm sure all those who don't pay any tax were out in force.

They certainly would prefer increased income tax rather than property tax as income tax doesnt affect them.

And of course there would have been a fair few PAYE workers there too, who just haven't thought this through and don't realise that a relatively small charge (even when increased) on every house owner is a fairer system than lumping it all on the PAYE worker, who has already been hit time and time again.

As I've said before someone on €25,000 is already paying €1,000 more in income tax as a result of the recession.

Far better they be asked to pay €1,100 - and pensioners who have a house be asked to pay €100, and social welfare recipients who own their own house be asked to pay €100

rather than the PAYE worker being asked to €1,200 or whatever the figure will be, as make no mistake the only alternative to property tax is more income tax. Its time for everyone to pay their share, not just the PAYE worker.